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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/20/2002 1:17:35 PM EDT
Just announced - Stephen J. Gould is dead at age 60. Here's a Mother Jones article to remind you of just who Dr. Gould was and what he wrote: [url]http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/JF97/outspoken.html[/url] Eric The(HisQuestionsAreAnsweredNow)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:19:58 PM EDT
Damn... There goes a great man! Oh his questions are not answered..HE IS DEAD!! His brain no longer functions so he is worm food.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:25:51 PM EDT
Well, according to his own words, he has descended into the world of bacteria. But in my belief, he is getting questions answered that he probably might not like to hear the answers to, no matter how they may strike him. Eric The(ManIsTheMismeasureOfAllThings)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:33:10 PM EDT
Well it would probably go like this..... Skeptic: Are you an agnostic? Gould: If you absolutely forced me to bet on the existence of a conventional anthropomorphic deity, of course I'd bet no. But, basically, Huxley was right when he said that agnosticism is the only honorable position because we really cannot know. And that's right. I'd be real surprised if there turned out to be a conventional God. I remember a story about Clarence Darrow, who was quite atheistic. Somebody asked him: "Suppose you die and your soul goes up there and it turns out the conventional story is true afterall?" Darrow's answer was beautiful, and I love the way he pictured it with the 12 apostles in the jury box and with his reputation for giving long speeches (he spoke two straight days to save Leopold and Loeb). He said that for once in his life he wasn't going to make a long speech. He was just going to walk up to them, bow low to the judge's bench, and say, "Gentlemen, I was wrong."
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:54:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Well, according to his own words, he has descended into the world of bacteria. But in my belief, he is getting questions answered that he probably might not like to hear the answers to, no matter how they may strike him.
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So SJG rejects God?? Then is it merciful for God to "prove" himself to those who've just died and let them catch just a glimpse of eternal life only to then torment and extinguish them for rejecting Him in the worldly life? Or is it more merciful for God to simply allow those who reject Him to just "die" and not see Him or eternal life at all? What do you suppose God's "judgement" upon nonbelievers is like?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:59:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: Well it would probably go like this..... Skeptic: Are you an agnostic? Gould: If you absolutely forced me to bet on the existence of a conventional anthropomorphic deity, of course I'd bet no. But, basically, Huxley was right when he said that agnosticism is the only honorable position because we really cannot know. And that's right. I'd be real surprised if there turned out to be a conventional God. I remember a story about Clarence Darrow, who was quite atheistic. Somebody asked him: "Suppose you die and your soul goes up there and it turns out the conventional story is true afterall?" Darrow's answer was beautiful, and I love the way he pictured it with the 12 apostles in the jury box and with his reputation for giving long speeches (he spoke two straight days to save Leopold and Loeb). He said that for once in his life he wasn't going to make a long speech. He was just going to walk up to them, bow low to the judge's bench, and say, "Gentlemen, I was wrong."
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I like that. I've always had alot of respect for SJG, ever since college. I would like to think that the Big Guy can respect an honest answer of "I don't know". At least He did with Thomas. RIP, Stephen. -legrue
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:52:12 PM EDT
Post from legrue -
I would like to think that the Big Guy can respect an honest answer of "I don't know". At least He did with Thomas.
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If you are referring to Thomas, the Apostle, I would point out that Thomas believed before he died. He 'knew' as soon as he saw the wounds of Christ. The 'Big Guy' then said it was more blessed to believe without the need for seeing. Nope. I foresee eternal trouble for our friend SJG. Eric The(ForewarnedIsForearmed)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:00:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from legrue -
I would like to think that the Big Guy can respect an honest answer of "I don't know". At least He did with Thomas.
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If you are referring to Thomas, the Apostle, I would point out that Thomas believed before he died. He 'knew' as soon as he saw the wounds of Christ. The 'Big Guy' then said it was more blessed to believe without the need for seeing. Nope. I foresee eternal trouble for our friend SJG. Eric The(ForewarnedIsForearmed)Hun[>]:)]
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Since God is merciful and not just, I prefer to think Stephen is in heaven. Either way, I've already said a prayer or two for SJG's soul. -legrue
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:15:00 PM EDT
[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020520/capt.1021928119.obit_gould_bx501.jpg[/img] [url=http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/gould_biography.html]Stephan Jay[/url] Gould was one of life's rarity's in that he was one of the foremost experts in his field yet at the same time he could convey the latest theories to the man on the street. He will be missed. 20 years ago, when he was first diagnosed with cancer..he wrote the following essay [url=http://www.cancerguide.org/median_not_msg.html]The Median isnt the Message[/url] It was men like Richard Feynman, Carl Sagan and Stephan Jay Gould, who made science very exciting for the working man.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 4:30:26 PM EDT
That is just incredibly sad. Stephen Jay Gould was an incredible mind. The world is a poorer place for his passing.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 7:08:27 PM EDT
The most incredible thing about him was his desperate, like you see with people suffering withdrawal, invention of so-called "punctuated equilibrium" in a somewhat successful attempt (surprise! science doesn't let go easily) to sweep major defects of evolutionary theory under the carpet.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 7:47:29 PM EDT
Thanks for displaying both your lack of class and lack of knowledge, prk.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 7:54:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By prk: The most incredible thing about him was his desperate, like you see with people suffering withdrawal, invention of so-called "punctuated equilibrium" in a somewhat successful attempt (surprise! science doesn't let go easily) to sweep major defects of evolutionary theory under the carpet.
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Hmmmmmm.....sounds interesting. Give me more details.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 7:56:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2002 7:58:04 PM EDT by RTA]
If I was a betting man, I'd bet he started to believe about 5 seconds into his death. I'd like to think that he went to heaven also, but that's probably did not happen. Revelation 20: 14-15 probably gives a good account of his travels outside of his body IF he didn't trust in the Lord as his Saviour.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 8:54:12 PM EDT
I'm just sorry that some people feel the need to turn this thread into another evolution vs creation arguement. If ya gotta, can't you start another thread? -legrue
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:07:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RTA: If I was a betting man, I'd bet he started to believe about 5 seconds into his death.
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Unfortunately for you, it's a bet you'd have to die to win.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:31:16 PM EDT
It's a shame to see him go, he did some great writing that's for sure. The more interesting point is to see all the 'Godly folk' come out of the woodwork to revel in their smug belief that he's now suffering eternal torment. This must be what they're talking about when I hear them say they're 'loving the sinner and hating the sin'. Oh wait, but that wouldn't make any sense...
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:18:57 PM EDT
This truly is a loss for the lay and scientific world. Dr. Gould was brilliant, eloquent, and passionate. He introduced many thinking readers to the world of science. I have nothing against religion, but the impish glee with which some on this board take in his supposed "internal damnation" is quite telling of both their true religiosity and their small minds. You needn't agree WITH Gould in order to agree that he was a man doing his best to find Truth and reveal the outline of its shape to his colleagues and the lay public alike. In this regard he was more than successful. As a teacher, I keep a copy of "Bully for Brontosaurus" on my desk both as a reminder of my duty to elucidate difficult concepts tp young minds, and for the rare break when I have a few minutes to read on my own.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:47:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By RTA: If I was a betting man, I'd bet he started to believe about 5 seconds into his death.
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Unfortunately for you, it's a bet you'd have to die to win.
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Yeah, that doesn't sound to good at this point in life. There are still a few more guns I'd like to get a hold of before I hit the road.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:54:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Thanks for displaying both your lack of class and lack of knowledge, prk.
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LMFAO, Rik: At you. You're so damn predictable.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 1:28:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MIerinMD:
Originally Posted By prk: The most incredible thing about him was his desperate, like you see with people suffering withdrawal, invention of so-called "punctuated equilibrium" in a somewhat successful attempt (surprise! science doesn't let go easily) to sweep major defects of evolutionary theory under the carpet.
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Hmmmmmm.....sounds interesting. Give me more details.
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Well, one big problem was that the fossil record didn't give good evidence for the gradual transformation of one species into another. There were species remaining unaltered over eons, then suddenly new, supposedly evolved, descendant, species would appear without any transitional fossil record. This would happen "overnight", in geo-time. So Gould modified the theory to fit the available evidence. Sudden bursts of evolution punctuated long periods of 'equilibrium', he said. So essentially, his idea was, Ignore the contrary evidence - the loooong eons of no transition - that's not where evolution occurs. Evolution creates new species very quickly, according to him. But examples of the transitional fossils demonstrating this abrupt mutation,adaptation, and evolution are hard to find.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 4:30:31 AM EDT
Yes Prk...even theories EVOLVE!! You see cupernicus leads to Galileo...Neuton.... Its all a progression.. I know you prefer regression but they too each his own. Bottom line is SJG was a great man of science and the world is a poorer place.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 5:52:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By meshuggah:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Thanks for displaying both your lack of class and lack of knowledge, prk.
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LMFAO, Rik: At you. You're so damn predictable.
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No, the classless, clueless assholes who can't let it rest for a second are the predictable ones.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 6:02:26 AM EDT
According to the bible ..God will have mercy upon those He will...and judgement upon those He will.. The problem is that after one has lived a life of rebellion and hasnt been brought to the point of asking for forgivness or repenting what makes you think that faced with almighty God one will even repent at that point... The rebellious spirit, unbroken in life, will not be broken even in death... Faith is a gift of God...we are all dead in our sin our rebellion.. Even satan has a type of faith..He knows who God is..but refuses his authority The true agnostic imo ..is one who doesnt know for sure..but is willing to find out..so the true agnostic could ask God..in a humble way..(not knowing for sure yet out of respect in case God is real to not offend Him)..for God to show Himself , to prove Himself The false agnostic is arrogant and cannot ask God in a humble way to show himself because his heart is hardend and he isnt really an agnostic at all but a rebel ...the false agnostic lies to himself..he isnt a truth seeker..but has an angry spirit.. God shows himself to man every day...in nature and in scripture and in the human heart..One long look at a star filled sky and I know Gould was dead wrong and the minister of a false religion...evolution.. It takes more "faith" to believe in evolution -in randomness making sense or choas taking such intricate form...evolution is imo is just about the most idiotic belief sytem in the world..it makes no sense...one fills in all the gaps with faith in the person that told you the tale in the first place...rather than the Creator .. But dont worry...life is very short..as the arab's say Life is a bird that flies into a tent..it flutters arround once or twice ..then goes back out the way it came.. You will know the truth soon enough... If you are right then you will simply cease to exist..if you are wrong..then you will find that out to..but banking on God showing you mercy and granting you eternal life apart from Christ denies His words It Mocks God.. To tell God He doesnt really mean what He says, is to believe the oldest lie in the world..(the one satan told Eve regarding the eating of fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil)...God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the Fruit "they would surely die"...satan lied to Eve and said "you will not surely die"...Satan Mocked God..by mocking His Word as not being the truth. satan the liar told Eve God had lied...she believed satan over God...and then Adam along with her...human nature is such that we tend to believe satans lies over God's truth. We are no longer just innocnet and gullible but promote such evil...we teach our children such evil... Teaching children evolution being one such evil...what did Prof Gould teach again? And why is this evil...It mocks God...calls God a liar..God says He created the Heavens and the Earth and all things in it.. To say to oneself...God will have mercy on me because I was good...is to mock God the very way satan did..by denying His very words.. No Man Comes To The Father But By The Son
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 6:16:00 AM EDT
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49191-2002May21.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 6:39:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 6:40:17 AM EDT by meshuggah]
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By meshuggah:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Thanks for displaying both your lack of class and lack of knowledge, prk.
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LMFAO, Rik: At you. You're so damn predictable.
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No, the classless, clueless assholes who can't let it rest for a second are the predictable ones.
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I agree. And let me compliment you on your ability to simultaneously type and look in the mirror... [;D]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:10:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By meshuggah: I agree. And let me compliment you on your ability to simultaneously type and look in the mirror...
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And let me compliment you on your ability to type with one hand and wank off with the other.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:24:14 AM EDT
On Gould's Theory that Evolutionary change was not incremental: Probably due to a Pan Species Retro Virus's. It is a well known fact that many viruses of the same type can infect different populations of species. Retro Virus's have the ability to alter the DNA in a cell.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:28:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: The true agnostic imo ..is one who doesnt know for sure..but is willing to find out..so the true agnostic could ask God..in a humble way
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No, that wouldn't be an agnostic, that would be someone who is undecided. An agnostic believes that it is impossible to know whether God exists or not.
The false agnostic is arrogant and cannot ask God in a humble way to show himself because his heart is hardend and he isnt really an agnostic at all but a rebel ...the false agnostic lies to himself..he isnt a truth seeker..but has an angry spirit..
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Wow, what an incredible misunderstanding of the English language you have. You should consult a dictionary.
One long look at a star filled sky and I know Gould was dead wrong and the minister of a false religion...evolution..
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No, evolution is not a religion nor a belief. You lack the understanding to accept this, but that is your problem, not Gould's.
It takes more "faith" to believe in evolution -in randomness making sense or choas taking such intricate form...evolution is imo is just about the most idiotic belief sytem in the world..
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Yet again you show your lack of understanding. Evolution has nothing to do with belief or with "choas." Evolution is how life developed. You can feel free to believe that God created the universe and that God created the first life...but once that life came to be, it evolved from previous forms to present forms.
If you are right then you will simply cease to exist..if you are wrong..then you will find that out to..but banking on God showing you mercy and granting you eternal life apart from Christ denies His words
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Of course you're wrong in limiting the choices to atheism vs Christianity. The true choices are a whole spectrum, from atheism to various different stripes of Christianity, to Buddhism, to Hinduism, to Islam, to Judaism, to Zoroastrianism, to Asatrue...any one of which could be correct or they could ALL be wrong. So instead of your false dichotomy, the whole belief question is more of a lottery, and the chances any of us have the winning number are slim to none.
It Mocks God..
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You mock Odin.
To tell God He doesnt really mean what He says, is to believe the oldest lie in the world..
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To presume you know what God has said is the oldest arrogance in the world.
Teaching children evolution being one such evil...
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Teaching children fairy tales about the universe being created a few thousand years ago is evil. Creation "science" is evil, since it handicaps American children in the Real World, in which we need educated people to compete against other nations where they do not so handicap their children.
what did Prof Gould teach again?
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Facts.
And why is this evil
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It isn't, of course.
...It mocks God...calls God a liar..God says He created the Heavens and the Earth and all things in it..
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You mock Zeus, you call Odin a liar. Allah says HE created all things...
To say to oneself...God will have mercy on me because I was good...is to mock God the very way satan did..by denying His very words..
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To say to yourself "the Bible has to be the word of God because I believe it" is to mock Vishnu by denying His very words.
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