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Posted: 12/17/2009 9:57:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 10:04:26 PM EDT by The_Macallan]







In Wrath Of Khan we're introduced to the Kobayashi Maru simulation where a Federation ship is stranded in the Klingon side of the "Neutral Zone" which was established under the Organian Peace Treaty (OPT) which came out of one of the original Star Trek series episodes. In that episode Kirk and Spock infiltrate the planet of Organia to protect them from the Klingons and there they encounter the superadvanced Organians who basically impose a "truce" between the Federation and the Klingons which then led to the establishment of the "Neutral Zones" between the Klingons and the Federation.
So the OPT came first - then the Klingon "Neutral Zones" were established afterwards.
But in the movie Wrath Of Khan, Kirk recalls how he beat the Kobayashi Maru (which includes saving a Federation ship stranded in the Klingon Neutral Zone) while he was a cadet at Star Fleet (he beat it by hacking the system and reprogramming it so he can win - and got a commendation for it too).
So do you see the contradiction - Kirk was already Starship Captain when the Organian Peace Treaty was formed which established the "Neutral Zone" between the Federation and the Klingons..... and yet the Neutral Zone was incorporated into the Kobayashi Maru long before Kirk ever became Starship Captain!
So what's the deal with THAT!!?







 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 9:59:45 PM EDT


quit thinking
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:02:36 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Renegade13B:







quit thinking


That is illogical.




 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:02:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
So what's the deal with THAT!!?


A wizard did it.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:07:54 PM EDT
Khaaaaannnn!!!
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:08:33 PM EDT
one of the main items to remember int he new star trek movie is that all the time traveling by the bad guys and spock created an alternate universe type of thing.  so while the old school movie wrath of khan has one story line, the new star trek starts a new arc in an alternate universe type of thing.  i've never seen the wrath of khan or any of the other old star trek movies
and...
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:09:07 PM EDT
I always thought the KM was a no-win test. How it does it can change from time to time. The important part, facing hard choices, does not.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:11:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 10:13:32 PM EDT by highstepper]
The Kobayashi Maru is a test of a Command candidates' character in the face of a no-win scenario.  The test consists of a ship in distress and enough Klingon D-7 Battlecruisers laying in ambush to make the test legitimately "no-win" despite the ingenuity of the various Command candidates who come into the testing simulator.  The Klingon Neutral Zone is akin to the DMZ between North and South Korea, and it was established after Kirk's mission to Organia.  But before the Organian Peace Treaty, there was a common border with the Klingon Empire.   I would say that the Kobayashi Maru test is not dependent upon the existence of the Neutral Zone, but rather a theoretical ship, Kobayashi Maru, straying to close to the common border between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire.  






Edit for punctuation.  
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:12:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 10:16:15 PM EDT by Infallible]
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:13:14 PM EDT



Originally Posted By The_Macallan:




In Wrath Of Khan we're introduced to the Kobayashi Maru simulation where a Federation ship is stranded in the Klingon side of the "Neutral Zone" which was established under the Organian Peace Treaty (OPT) which came out of one of the original Star Trek series episodes. In that episode Kirk and Spock infiltrate the planet of Organia to protect them from the Klingons and there they encounter the superadvanced Organians who basically impose a "truce" between the Federation and the Klingons which then led to the establishment of the "Neutral Zones" between the Klingons and the Federation.



So the OPT came first - then the Klingon "Neutral Zones" were established afterwards.



But in the movie Wrath Of Khan, Kirk recalls how he beat the Kobayashi Maru (which includes saving a Federation ship stranded in the Klingon Neutral Zone) while he was a cadet at Star Fleet (he beat it by hacking the system and reprogramming it so he can win - and got a commendation for it too).



So do you see the contradiction - Kirk was already Starship Captain when the Organian Peace Treaty was formed which established the "Neutral Zone" between the Federation and the Klingons..... and yet the Neutral Zone was incorporated into the Kobayashi Maru long before Kirk ever became Starship Captain!





So what's the deal with THAT!!?







 


The test existed before the OPT - there was also a Romulan neutral zone to work with - Starfleet just changed the bad guys to match the current 'big threat'...



Kind of like the US turning the very German-looking McKenna Village (at Ft Benning) into 'McKennadishu' and spraypainting Arab graffiti to make it more 'aligned' with the current threat...



 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:13:57 PM EDT
Taking your claims at face value, it seems there was a continuity issue.  Odd, though, that it hasn't been raised previously.  It's not like:

a) these were obscure productions who slipped by under the radar, or
b) fans of the show aren't warped freaks who parse every (split?) second of action.

This could be fun.  I think Saviik did it.  You know how she loves the smell of sweat socks.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:13:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 10:17:50 PM EDT by Master_of_Orion]





Originally Posted By yumbeef:



one of the main items to remember int he new star trek movie is that all the time traveling by the bad guys and spock created an alternate universe type of thing.  so while the old school movie wrath of khan has one story line, the new star trek starts a new arc in an alternate universe type of thing.  i've never seen the wrath of khan or any of the other old star trek movies


and...


http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/star-trek-2-khan-570x407.jpg



has no barring on this thread since it is not discussing the new movie.





It is pointing out a inconsistency between The Original Series and the movie The Wrath of Khan.





The new movie does not enter into the conversation in any way.
As to the topic at hand... I don't really remember... Micoy asks him how he saved the ship doesn't he?  It may be implied that it was the same simulation but I don't think it's explicitly stated that it was.  That leaves room for it to have been a different simulation... where he had to save a ship but not necessarily dealing with the neutral zone.





 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:14:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By highstepper:
The Kobayashi Maru is a test of a Command candidates' character in the face of a no-win scenario.  The test consists of a ship in distress and enough Klingon D-7 Battlecruisers laying in ambush to make the test legitimately "no-win" despite the ingenuity of the various Command candidates who come into the testing simulator.  The Klingon Neutral Zone is akin to the DMZ between North and South Korea, and it was established after Kirk's mission to Organia.  But before the Organian Peace Treaty, there was a common border with the Klingon Empire.   I would say that the Kobayashi Maru test is not dependent upon the existence of the Neutral Zone, but rather a theoretical ship, Kobayashi Maru, straying to close to the common border between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire.  






Edit for punctuation.  


Good answer.... dork.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:17:43 PM EDT
Best ST movie ever.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:18:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 10:29:15 PM EDT by Tony-Ri]
Wrath of Khan is the best revenge film of all time, and overall its in the top 10 of best films of all time, too. Amazing film.









Now, the continuity error...










The Federation-Klingon Cold War would have really begun in the 2220's as per TUC. Kirk was born in 2233, which is well into the cold war, and Romulan first contact wasn't made till the TOS(forgot the Earth-Romulan War but that wasn't broken till the TOS,) so naturally the Federations's "Bad Guys" would have been Klingons for a Kobayashi Maru test.












 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:18:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:

Originally Posted By yumbeef:
one of the main items to remember int he new star trek movie is that all the time traveling by the bad guys and spock created an alternate universe type of thing.  so while the old school movie wrath of khan has one story line, the new star trek starts a new arc in an alternate universe type of thing.  i've never seen the wrath of khan or any of the other old star trek movies
and...
http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/star-trek-2-khan-570x407.jpg

has no barring on this thread since it is not discussing the new movie.

It is pointing out a inconsistency between The Original Series and the movie The Wrath of Khan.

The new movie does not enter into the conversation in any way.
 

My mistake.  i remembered kirk beat the simulation in the same manner that the OP stated in the new movie.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:20:13 PM EDT
never thought of it that way.   Best guess:



the Kobayashi Maru was about a no win scenario.



Its exact nature has changed in the television show, movies, and books over the years.



At the time of Kirk's test, it would have been in the Romulan Neutral Zone.    

The test from Wrath was Lt. Savik's (sp?) and the Klingons were the expected enemy.



Sort of like how we used to have training simulations against soviets and not so much anymore.  
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:20:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 10:30:09 PM EDT by highstepper]
Originally Posted By InheritedAnArsenal:
Good answer.... dork.





Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:40:13 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Dino:


never thought of it that way.   Best guess:



the Kobayashi Maru was about a no win scenario.



Its exact nature has changed in the television show, movies, and books over the years.



At the time of Kirk's test, it would have been in the Romulan Neutral Zone.    

The test from Wrath was Lt. Savik's (sp?) and the Klingons were the expected enemy.



Sort of like how we used to have training simulations against soviets and not so much anymore.  
They didn't encounter the Romulans until an episode of TOS.  That was their first encounter... so it would not have been the Romulan Neutral Zone as they didn't know the race existed let alone have neutral zone along their border.





 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:50:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

In Wrath Of Khan we're introduced to the Kobayashi Maru simulation where a Federation ship is stranded in the Klingon side of the "Neutral Zone" which was established under the Organian Peace Treaty (OPT) which came out of one of the original Star Trek series episodes. In that episode Kirk and Spock infiltrate the planet of Organia to protect them from the Klingons and there they encounter the superadvanced Organians who basically impose a "truce" between the Federation and the Klingons which then led to the establishment of the "Neutral Zones" between the Klingons and the Federation.

So the OPT came first - then the Klingon "Neutral Zones" were established afterwards.

But in the movie Wrath Of Khan, Kirk recalls how he beat the Kobayashi Maru (which includes saving a Federation ship stranded in the Klingon Neutral Zone) while he was a cadet at Star Fleet (he beat it by hacking the system and reprogramming it so he can win - and got a commendation for it too).

So do you see the contradiction - Kirk was already Starship Captain when the Organian Peace Treaty was formed which established the "Neutral Zone" between the Federation and the Klingons..... and yet the Neutral Zone was incorporated into the Kobayashi Maru long before Kirk ever became Starship Captain!


So what's the deal with THAT!!?







 


Lots of stuff like that in the ST universe.  Remember that in the original series episode where they introduced Khan (Space Seed), Chekov wasn't yet a cast member.  But in Wrath of Khan he is instantly recognized by Khan as part of the Enterprise crew.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:52:23 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:


Wrath of Khan is the best revenge film of all time, and overall its in the top 10 of best films of all time, too. Amazing film.






Why do people think that? Is was a lesson in overacting and a highly improbable scenario with Khan and crew taking over a starship with NO training on how to to fly the damn thing and no access codes... they were supposed to be from the 20th century so where did they even get the first clue on how to operate anything? It would be like asking Benjamin Franklin to fly an airplane... was smart but not THAT smart!



It was a decent movie but goofy in parts.
 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:54:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:

Originally Posted By yumbeef:
one of the main items to remember int he new star trek movie is that all the time traveling by the bad guys and spock created an alternate universe type of thing.  so while the old school movie wrath of khan has one story line, the new star trek starts a new arc in an alternate universe type of thing.  i've never seen the wrath of khan or any of the other old star trek movies
and...
http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/star-trek-2-khan-570x407.jpg

has no barring on this thread since it is not discussing the new movie.

It is pointing out a inconsistency between The Original Series and the movie The Wrath of Khan.

The new movie does not enter into the conversation in any way.



As to the topic at hand... I don't really remember... Micoy asks him how he saved the ship doesn't he?  It may be implied that it was the same simulation but I don't think it's explicitly stated that it was.  That leaves room for it to have been a different simulation... where he had to save a ship but not necessarily dealing with the neutral zone.
 


Yeah, and it has no bearing either.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:55:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WileyG27:

Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
Wrath of Khan is the best revenge film of all time, and overall its in the top 10 of best films of all time, too. Amazing film.



Why do people think that? Is was a lesson in overacting and a highly improbable scenario with Khan and crew taking over a starship with NO training on how to to fly the damn thing and no access codes... they were supposed to be from the 20th century so where did they even get the first clue on how to operate anything? It would be like asking Benjamin Franklin to fly an airplane... was smart but not THAT smart!

It was a decent movie but goofy in parts.


 


Well they were genetically engineered super-geniuses with access to the Captain and a senior bridge officer who would answer all their questions due to the ear thingies.  Also, they did emphasize twice that Khan's inexperience was a weakness.  The first when Kirk used the prefix code to lower Reliant's shields, and the second when Spock points out that Khan was only maneuvering in two dimensions (like a sailing ship) rather than three, to which Kirk maneuvered in the z-axis in order to get the finishing shots on Khan.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:56:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:
They didn't encounter the Romulans until an episode of TOS.  That was their first encounter... so it would not have been the Romulan Neutral Zone as they didn't know the race existed let alone have neutral zone along their border.


IIRC, they had a war with the Romulans a few decades before TOS, but had never seen an actual Romulan until that episode.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:58:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:
They didn't encounter the Romulans until an episode of TOS.  That was their first encounter... so it would not have been the Romulan Neutral Zone as they didn't know the race existed let alone have neutral zone along their border.


IIRC, they had a war with the Romulans a few decades before TOS, but had never seen an actual Romulan until that episode.


Before subspace communications IIRC
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:35:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By happycynic:
Lots of stuff like that in the ST universe.  Remember that in the original series episode where they introduced Khan (Space Seed), Chekov wasn't yet a cast member.  But in Wrath of Khan he is instantly recognized by Khan as part of the Enterprise crew.


That might have been discontinuous were there not 7xx other crew members who didn't appear on the bridge.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:45:27 AM EDT
And...ask how Kahn's crew of "young supermen" lost ten years of age while he aged 20.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:45:52 AM EDT



Originally Posted By happycynic:



Lots of stuff like that in the ST universe.  Remember that in the original series episode where they introduced Khan (Space Seed), Chekov wasn't yet a cast member.  But in Wrath of Khan he is instantly recognized by Khan as part of the Enterprise crew.


Maybe he just had good intel.

 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:47:05 AM EDT
dude, it's star trek.

The entire fucking franchise hit the reset button in the last movie.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:51:11 AM EDT
It was a theoretical zone used in a battle simulation.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:53:14 AM EDT
Wasn't Kobayashi the guy who ate all those weiners???
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:21:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WileyG27:
It was a decent movie but goofy in parts.




Yes –– it was not Gone With The Wind, but compared to ALL the other ST films, it was a masterpiece.  There is no other ST film worth watching.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:31:24 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:





Originally Posted By Dino:

never thought of it that way.   Best guess:



the Kobayashi Maru was about a no win scenario.



Its exact nature has changed in the television show, movies, and books over the years.



At the time of Kirk's test, it would have been in the Romulan Neutral Zone.    

The test from Wrath was Lt. Savik's (sp?) and the Klingons were the expected enemy.



Sort of like how we used to have training simulations against soviets and not so much anymore.  
They didn't encounter the Romulans until an episode of TOS.  That was their first encounter... so it would not have been the Romulan Neutral Zone as they didn't know the race existed let alone have neutral zone along their border.



 


The war with the Romulans that resulted in the zone was during the time period of Enterprise, long before Kirk.
 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:37:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
Wasn't Kobayashi the guy who ate all those weiners???


Kobayshi was Keyser Soze's attorney.

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:41:08 AM EDT
You do realize that this is all make belive, right?
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:45:32 AM EDT
Actually, I have a book called the Kobiyashi Maru...

It details the cadet days of Chekov, Sulu, Scott and Kirk, with all the juicy details (it's a good read, they're all stranded on a shuttle with Spock and McCoy - with nothing to do but BS about the old days)

It quite clearly states (and it is part of canon, if you really want to get picky about it) that during that time frame the test took place with Klingon Warbirds...

the test also ended up (with Kirk's scenario) with all hostilities suspended, Kirk invited aboard for dinner with the Klingon High Commander and all safely rescued from the stranded vessel.

Put that in your smoke and pipe it.



I'm gonna have to dig that up and read it again. It's a pretty good set of stories.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:45:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

In Wrath Of Khan we're introduced to the Kobayashi Maru simulation where a Federation ship is stranded in the Klingon side of the "Neutral Zone" which was established under the Organian Peace Treaty (OPT) which came out of one of the original Star Trek series episodes. In that episode Kirk and Spock infiltrate the planet of Organia to protect them from the Klingons and there they encounter the superadvanced Organians who basically impose a "truce" between the Federation and the Klingons which then led to the establishment of the "Neutral Zones" between the Klingons and the Federation.

So the OPT came first - then the Klingon "Neutral Zones" were established afterwards.

But in the movie Wrath Of Khan, Kirk recalls how he beat the Kobayashi Maru (which includes saving a Federation ship stranded in the Klingon Neutral Zone) while he was a cadet at Star Fleet (he beat it by hacking the system and reprogramming it so he can win - and got a commendation for it too).

So do you see the contradiction - Kirk was already Starship Captain when the Organian Peace Treaty was formed which established the "Neutral Zone" between the Federation and the Klingons..... and yet the Neutral Zone was incorporated into the Kobayashi Maru long before Kirk ever became Starship Captain!


So what's the deal with THAT!!?


Did you ever consider that the Kobayashi Maru scenario, which is designed to see what a Cadet's reaction would be to a no-win scenario, was updated over the years to remain politically and militarily relevant in order to increase the realism? You could keep the name of the distressed ship the same.




 


Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:54:59 AM EDT



Originally Posted By 1Andy2:


dude, it's star trek.



The entire fucking franchise hit the reset button in the last movie.








 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:57:51 AM EDT
It is not stated that Kirk's test involved the same parameters as those shown in ST:II.

The point is that it is a "no win scenario" not actually what happens in the test.

I assume that the finer points have changes with time, possible even right after Kirk "beat" the test...

It is also known that the test was in use at the time of TNG and Voyager.

I wouldn't imagine that it still used the Klingon DMZ now that the Federation is no longer at war with the empire.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:00:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Plattekill:
And...ask how Kahn's crew of "young supermen" lost ten years of age while he aged 20.


And ask how Kahn recognized Chekov when Chekov wasn't a member of the crew at the time.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:06:45 AM EDT
During the Korean War, there was usually some space between the NK lines and the US lines. After the suspension of hostilities, this area became known as the DMZ. It wouldn't surprise me at all for someone familiar with both situations to refer to the older no-man's-land as the DMZ now, even though the DMZ didn't exist during the war. Problem #1solved.

If memory serves, a young crewma...crewperson by the name of Marla McGuire(?) was smitten with Ricardo Montalban's pecks during the series eposide with Khan, to the poit she had to choose between facing Starfleet charges or accompanying Khan into exile. She chose exile. We can safely assume that up until the exile planet changed orbit, she and Ricardo consummated the relationship, producing younger genetic half supermen, who were present during the movie. That would put them about 20 for the movie, which is what we saw. Problem #2 solved.

In the series episode, the genetic supermen were ensconsed in sickbay aboard the Enterprise, shortly after discovery of the Botany bay sleeper ship, presumably to mitigate the effects of suspended animation for 90 some odd years. While there, Spock had some sort of conversation with Kirk(?), mentioning that they were using the ships computers to bring the outdated supermen up to 21st century speed. I'm pretty sure the episode noted that this access to the ships computers allowed the supermen to learn enough about the ships systems to attempt a takeover. I remember Spock commenting on how fast they were learning. Problem #3 solved.

Can't help you with Chekov being instantly recognized by Khan in the movie.  I wasn't aware that chekov was a latecomer to the crew, i was too busy oogling Yeomans Rand's well tailored uniform.

Khan had the best line of Wrath... more Milton, I think...."from hell's heart I stab at thee"...real effective with Ricardo's face burned half off...





Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:07:40 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:



Originally Posted By Plattekill:

And...ask how Kahn's crew of "young supermen" lost ten years of age while he aged 20.
And ask how Kahn recognized Chekov when Chekov wasn't a member of the crew at the time.


He wasn't a member of the "bridge crew". It is speculated that he may have been on board the ship at the time though.



 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:08:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Choadlywan:
Actually, I have a book called the Kobiyashi Maru...

It details the cadet days of Chekov, Sulu, Scott and Kirk, with all the juicy details (it's a good read, they're all stranded on a shuttle with Spock and McCoy - with nothing to do but BS about the old days)

It quite clearly states (and it is part of canon, if you really want to get picky about it) that during that time frame the test took place with Klingon Warbirds...

the test also ended up (with Kirk's scenario) with all hostilities suspended, Kirk invited aboard for dinner with the Klingon High Commander and all safely rescued from the stranded vessel.

Put that in your smoke and pipe it.



I'm gonna have to dig that up and read it again. It's a pretty good set of stories.


And on that note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru

Chekov evacuates his ship and then crashes it into the three Klingon cruisers, destroying all four ships in the process and (inadvertently) all of the evacuees as well.

Sulu realizes it is probably a trap and refuses to cross the Neutral Zone.

Scotty attempts to fight the Klingon ships, employing a series of unorthodox tactics, such as bypassing the Klingon shields using a works-on-paper-only calculation (the failure-to-work-in-practice demonstration experiment was published by Scotty before he joined Starfleet and this fore-knowledge of theory/practice results in his being judged unsuitable for command track and sent off to engineering, as he actually desired), and transporting various destructive items to them. At first, he is surprisingly effective, but the computer scenario ups the ante with the arrival of additional Klingon ships. Scotty responds in kind with even more unorthodox tactics that rapidly escalate in on-the-fly engineering derring-do and destructiveness. He eventually loses to a staggering fleet of fifteen ships, but claims that if there had been an actual engineering room in which he could have performed his instructions himself, they would have been destroyed as well. This example proves it clear that the simulation will never end, no matter what the student throws at the Klingon ships, as an ever-increasing number of Klingon vessels will arrive on the scene, guaranteeing that the testee will lose eventually.

Kirk reprograms the simulated Klingons to be afraid of "The Captain Kirk", arguing that he expected to build a comparable reputation.

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:08:49 AM EDT




Originally Posted By max229:





Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

dude, it's star trek.



The entire fucking franchise hit the reset button in the last movie.






I think  implied that it's time for the constitution to follow in the footsteps of the Star Trek franchise.




Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:21:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 9:21:19 AM EDT by The_Macallan]





Originally Posted By glklvr:





Originally Posted By Choadlywan:


Actually, I have a book called the Kobiyashi Maru...





It details the cadet days of Chekov, Sulu, Scott and Kirk, with all the juicy details (it's a good read, they're all stranded on a shuttle with Spock and McCoy - with nothing to do but BS about the old days)





It quite clearly states (and it is part of canon, if you really want to get picky about it) that during that time frame the test took place with Klingon Warbirds...





the test also ended up (with Kirk's scenario) with all hostilities suspended, Kirk invited aboard for dinner with the Klingon High Commander and all safely rescued from the stranded vessel.





Put that in your smoke and pipe it.






I'm gonna have to dig that up and read it again. It's a pretty good set of stories.






And on that note:





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru





Chekov evacuates his ship and then crashes it into the three Klingon cruisers, destroying all four ships in the process and (inadvertently) all of the evacuees as well.





Sulu realizes it is probably a trap and refuses to cross the Neutral Zone.





Scotty attempts to fight the Klingon ships, employing a series of unorthodox tactics, such as bypassing the Klingon shields using a works-on-paper-only calculation (the failure-to-work-in-practice demonstration experiment was published by Scotty before he joined Starfleet and this fore-knowledge of theory/practice results in his being judged unsuitable for command track and sent off to engineering, as he actually desired), and transporting various destructive items to them. At first, he is surprisingly effective, but the computer scenario ups the ante with the arrival of additional Klingon ships. Scotty responds in kind with even more unorthodox tactics that rapidly escalate in on-the-fly engineering derring-do and destructiveness. He eventually loses to a staggering fleet of fifteen ships, but claims that if there had been an actual engineering room in which he could have performed his instructions himself, they would have been destroyed as well. This example proves it clear that the simulation will never end, no matter what the student throws at the Klingon ships, as an ever-increasing number of Klingon vessels will arrive on the scene, guaranteeing that the testee will lose eventually.





Kirk reprograms the simulated Klingons to be afraid of "The Captain Kirk", arguing that he expected to build a comparable reputation.








Two very interesting and enlightening posts, both of which confirm the contradiction that cadet-Kirk encountered the Kobayashi Maru stranded in a Klingon Neutral Zone that should not have even existed when he was a cadet.
 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:22:55 AM EDT
wut?
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:23:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

In Wrath Of Khan we're introduced to the Kobayashi Maru simulation where a Federation ship is stranded in the Klingon side of the "Neutral Zone" which was established under the Organian Peace Treaty (OPT) which came out of one of the original Star Trek series episodes. In that episode Kirk and Spock infiltrate the planet of Organia to protect them from the Klingons and there they encounter the superadvanced Organians who basically impose a "truce" between the Federation and the Klingons which then led to the establishment of the "Neutral Zones" between the Klingons and the Federation.

So the OPT came first - then the Klingon "Neutral Zones" were established afterwards.

But in the movie Wrath Of Khan, Kirk recalls how he beat the Kobayashi Maru (which includes saving a Federation ship stranded in the Klingon Neutral Zone) while he was a cadet at Star Fleet (he beat it by hacking the system and reprogramming it so he can win - and got a commendation for it too).

So do you see the contradiction - Kirk was already Starship Captain when the Organian Peace Treaty was formed which established the "Neutral Zone" between the Federation and the Klingons..... and yet the Neutral Zone was incorporated into the Kobayashi Maru long before Kirk ever became Starship Captain!


So what's the deal with THAT!!?







 


NO NO NO

There are two neutral zones.  The one with the Klingons and that with the Romulans.

The neutral zone that is talked about the most and that has appeared in most episodes is the latter one.

So there is no disparity.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:28:01 AM EDT
Well of ocurse the other big OOPS in Wrath is when Kahn first captures Checkov and the other captain. He then states that he "Never forgets a face... Mr Checkov"

In the original series Checkov was not yet a character when the kahn episode was made.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:30:48 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Blackhawk101:


Well of ocurse the other big OOPS in Wrath is when Kahn first captures Checkov and the other captain. He then states that he "Never forgets a face... Mr Checkov"



In the original series Checkov was not yet a character when the kahn episode was made.


He was not yet a member of the "bridge crew". His character had not yet appeared on screen.

This does not mean that he was not on board the Enterprise at the time though.



 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:31:45 AM EDT
Reboot FTW!
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:37:57 AM EDT



Originally Posted By DarkNite:


Reboot FTW!







 
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