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Posted: 9/10/2011 9:38:32 AM EST
Two bad knees, can't do free standing squats because I don't want to kill myself if one of the knees gives way.

Gym has several types of machines. A standing squat machine that one stands on an inclined platform and moves an apparatus loaded with weights up and down - has a lock.

Another machines, same thing but almost horizontal.

A leg press machine with arms to load weights on. One lays almost on his back and pushes up.

A leg press machine that one sits in and pushes straight out. Weights adjusted like Nautilis machines.

A Smith Machine with slight incline.

Which would be best to replace the big boy squats I cannot do?

Link Posted: 9/10/2011 10:33:56 AM EST
Squats in a power rack with bars to catch the barbell if shit goes down hill.

Machines can be harder on knees than free weights.
Link Posted: 9/10/2011 10:54:07 AM EST
Steer clear of the smith machine with bad knees. Keep your knees out when you squat, don't allow them to buckle in because you're lifting more weight than your technique or whatever the weak link in your body will allow.
Link Posted: 9/10/2011 11:25:00 AM EST

how about box squats? i'd stay away from machines for squatting.
Link Posted: 9/10/2011 5:42:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By GUNGUY148:
Squats in a power rack with bars to catch the barbell if shit goes down hill.

Machines can be harder on knees than free weights.

This. Start light, use safety bars. Go below parallel.
Link Posted: 9/10/2011 5:43:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:

how about box squats? i'd stay away from machines for squatting.

I would advise against this if he's worried his knees will give out. If they do, he could compress his spin on that box- then he has bad knees and a bad back. Box squats are awesome otherwise though.
Link Posted: 9/10/2011 6:09:21 PM EST
one legged bulgarian squats allows you to use light loads and get a workout. Pistols do too, but can be a little straining for the first month or so.
a trick rarely used to keep the stress off the knees is one that tom platz used to do. he didn't stop until his buttocks hit his hamstring. Since stopping is the main stress on the knees in squats this would keep the knees from hurting. You also cannot use as much weight, which lowers the stress.

Link Posted: 9/11/2011 4:04:04 PM EST
You may want to consult a professional on this one. The low back barbell squat (free weight) is probably the best all-around strength exercise. I absolutely hate Smith machines.
Link Posted: 9/11/2011 10:33:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By tveddy:
one legged bulgarian squats allows you to use light loads and get a workout. Pistols do too, but can be a little straining for the first month or so.
a trick rarely used to keep the stress off the knees is one that tom platz used to do. he didn't stop until his buttocks hit his hamstring. Since stopping is the main stress on the knees in squats this would keep the knees from hurting. You also cannot use as much weight, which lowers the stress.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TFE7Phkh-2o/TIObRUkPH6I/AAAAAAAAABE/eqSlRsZXEAc/s1600/tom+Platz.jpg

WOW! Great bottom position picture of a perfect squat. Now if I could just get that in poster size and tacked to the wall at my gym for all the 1/16th squatters....
Link Posted: 9/12/2011 5:26:27 AM EST
'
Originally Posted By RenoNV:

Originally Posted By tveddy:
one legged bulgarian squats allows you to use light loads and get a workout. Pistols do too, but can be a little straining for the first month or so.
a trick rarely used to keep the stress off the knees is one that tom platz used to do. he didn't stop until his buttocks hit his hamstring. Since stopping is the main stress on the knees in squats this would keep the knees from hurting. You also cannot use as much weight, which lowers the stress.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TFE7Phkh-2o/TIObRUkPH6I/AAAAAAAAABE/eqSlRsZXEAc/s1600/tom+Platz.jpg

WOW! Great bottom position picture of a perfect squat. Now if I could just get that in poster size and tacked to the wall at my gym for all the 1/16th squatters....


Ain't that the truth!


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/12/2011 10:29:13 AM EST
The original Quadzilla!

Always loved Platz!

And agree with RG, start light, stay away from machines and do not do box squats. You should probably just start with body weight squats for a few months to rebuild the strength and endurance. Also, isometric hold might be a good starting point as well. Back against the wall and hold a sitting position, knees at 90'degrees. Once you can hold for 2 minutes your knees and surrounding tissues should be strong enough to handle a more dynamic work load.

Was recommended to my by a PT (friend of the family).
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 1:12:45 PM EST
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 1:33:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 2:16:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 2:31:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2011 2:34:16 PM EST by RolandofGilead]

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)


Link Posted: 9/17/2011 2:41:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 3:07:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2011 3:08:22 PM EST by BurtSaun1049]
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 3:23:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting


Agree that its a case by case basis, but if BW stuff wouldnt be an issue in your eyes, why would slowly adding weight with the same motion as what you suggest?
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 3:41:15 PM EST
EOriginally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting


Agree that its a case by case basis, but if BW stuff wouldnt be an issue in your eyes, why would slowly adding weight with the same motion as what you suggest?

Exactly. That's essentially what you're doing with pistols anyways, plus adding a balance to the equation.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 4:20:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting


Agree that its a case by case basis, but if BW stuff wouldnt be an issue in your eyes, why would slowly adding weight with the same motion as what you suggest?


For most people, it would be fine. It would just depend on the person's injuries.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 5:31:46 PM EST
Can't stand doing squats on a smith machine. Completely ruins my form and every time I've tried it I end up feeling back pain for a few days.

My gym doesn't have a real squat rack or power rack either, but they do have one of the squat machines you've mentioned.



Pretty much just like this. It's not a replacement for traditional squats but it's better than nothing and still gets my legs sore for the next week.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 5:33:54 PM EST
BW is only going to go so far. IF somebody is improving, you have to increase resistance at some point some how. That goes for anyone.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 5:35:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2011 5:36:46 PM EST by Bhart89]
Originally Posted By tveddy:
one legged bulgarian squats allows you to use light loads and get a workout. Pistols do too, but can be a little straining for the first month or so.
a trick rarely used to keep the stress off the knees is one that tom platz used to do. he didn't stop until his buttocks hit his hamstring. Since stopping is the main stress on the knees in squats this would keep the knees from hurting. You also cannot use as much weight, which lowers the stress.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TFE7Phkh-2o/TIObRUkPH6I/AAAAAAAAABE/eqSlRsZXEAc/s1600/tom+Platz.jpg


At the risk of squat blasphemy, aren't his knees a little too far out in front of his toes?



Link Posted: 9/17/2011 8:34:52 PM EST
i have bad knees also. But the best thing would still be the traditional squat. just do it with light weight until you feel more comfortable.
Link Posted: 9/18/2011 5:24:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By numberofthebeast:
Can't stand doing squats on a smith machine. Completely ruins my form and every time I've tried it I end up feeling back pain for a few days.

My gym doesn't have a real squat rack or power rack either, but they do have one of the squat machines you've mentioned.

http://www.pro-fitness.com/photos/front_squat_machine.jpg

Pretty much just like this. It's not a replacement for traditional squats but it's better than nothing and still gets my legs sore for the next week.


this is one of the machines in my gym

using it with light (70 lbs) has not yet hurt my knees. don't think I'm getting much out of it yet.

I appreciate all the comments. My knee problems are no cartilege in either knee from years of running. The right one locks up occasionally. Had them cleaned out artho. Don't want the knee replacement.

I will be 67 soon and don't like it so I am trying to exercise my way back to my youth.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:33:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By tveddy:
one legged bulgarian squats allows you to use light loads and get a workout. Pistols do too, but can be a little straining for the first month or so.
a trick rarely used to keep the stress off the knees is one that tom platz used to do. he didn't stop until his buttocks hit his hamstring. Since stopping is the main stress on the knees in squats this would keep the knees from hurting. You also cannot use as much weight, which lowers the stress.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TFE7Phkh-2o/TIObRUkPH6I/AAAAAAAAABE/eqSlRsZXEAc/s1600/tom+Platz.jpg


At the risk of squat blasphemy, aren't his knees a little too far out in front of his toes?





For powerlifting yes. But since he was going ATG to squat deep to develope his quads, no. you have to remember that Tom Platz did sets of 50 with 225 so that was pretty light for him. I just saw a video of him squatting 225kg so around 500 for 27 reps and he was getting that deep every time
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:39:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By tveddy:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By tveddy:
one legged bulgarian squats allows you to use light loads and get a workout. Pistols do too, but can be a little straining for the first month or so.
a trick rarely used to keep the stress off the knees is one that tom platz used to do. he didn't stop until his buttocks hit his hamstring. Since stopping is the main stress on the knees in squats this would keep the knees from hurting. You also cannot use as much weight, which lowers the stress.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TFE7Phkh-2o/TIObRUkPH6I/AAAAAAAAABE/eqSlRsZXEAc/s1600/tom+Platz.jpg


At the risk of squat blasphemy, aren't his knees a little too far out in front of his toes?





For powerlifting yes. But since he was going ATG to squat deep to develope his quads, no. you have to remember that Tom Platz did sets of 50 with 225 so that was pretty light for him. I just saw a video of him squatting 225kg so around 500 for 27 reps and he was getting that deep every time


Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:33:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 6:34:17 AM EST by VTHOKIESHOOTER]

Originally Posted By rgkeller:

Originally Posted By numberofthebeast:
Can't stand doing squats on a smith machine. Completely ruins my form and every time I've tried it I end up feeling back pain for a few days.

My gym doesn't have a real squat rack or power rack either, but they do have one of the squat machines you've mentioned.

http://www.pro-fitness.com/photos/front_squat_machine.jpg

Pretty much just like this. It's not a replacement for traditional squats but it's better than nothing and still gets my legs sore for the next week.


this is one of the machines in my gym

using it with light (70 lbs) has not yet hurt my knees. don't think I'm getting much out of it yet.

I appreciate all the comments. My knee problems are no cartilege in either knee from years of running. The right one locks up occasionally. Had them cleaned out artho. Don't want the knee replacement.

I will be 67 soon and don't like it so I am trying to exercise my way back to my youth.

You're screwed. Either get knee replacement or don't squat. Get the damn knee replacement and go enjoy the rest of your life being active.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 7:12:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting


Agree that its a case by case basis, but if BW stuff wouldnt be an issue in your eyes, why would slowly adding weight with the same motion as what you suggest?


For most people, it would be fine. It would just depend on the person's injuries.


Same could be said for what youre recommending. If the injury is bad enough they shouldnt be doing BW anything either. Yes, everything is going to be a case by case basis, but Its not a different enough movement to say its any better than not adding weight. And like Kevin said, and RoG pretty much eluded to, if the patient is progressing enough, youre going to have to start adding weight at some point.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:51:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting


Agree that its a case by case basis, but if BW stuff wouldnt be an issue in your eyes, why would slowly adding weight with the same motion as what you suggest?


For most people, it would be fine. It would just depend on the person's injuries.


Same could be said for what youre recommending. If the injury is bad enough they shouldnt be doing BW anything either. Yes, everything is going to be a case by case basis, but Its not a different enough movement to say its any better than not adding weight. And like Kevin said, and RoG pretty much eluded to, if the patient is progressing enough, youre going to have to start adding weight at some point.


Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics. How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:03:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 1:05:03 PM EST by RolandofGilead]

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:

Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics. How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?


That's garbage. Well, let me rephrase- if you're lifting improperly, or are pushing your body to the LIMIT then perhaps you'll see joint wear. Lifting moderate weights for health, and not competition (those guys are squatting 800+ pounds) if done properly isn't going to wear out your joints, and in fact can HELP them. Claiming otherwise is garbage.

And it's funny you should mention that, because in fact I DO see a few 60+ year old people doing weighted squats and deadlifts, and guess what? They look and act a whole HELL of a lot better than the 60+ year olds who either don't do shit or nothing more than walking for 30 minutes.

A recent study published in the October issue of Arthritis Care and Research 2006 has two groups of patients with knee osteoarthritis. One group was containing a regular series of exercises in the light of the other regular routine strength training exercises, weight lifting routines that strengthen the quadriceps and other leg muscles. All patients in the weightlifting group subsequently reported less pain in the ROM group, and especially X-rays confirmed from those in the Strength Training Group that has slowed the progression of osteoarthritis.



Read more: http://healthmad.com/fitness/weight-lifting-for-healthy-joints/#ixzz1YREwR2D4



Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:25:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. BW squats are a good place to start, but there is nothing wrong with most people slowly adding a little weight- I didn't say HEAVY- but starting slow and building real strength is a good thing. Squatting with even 95# is going to offer a stimulus to the muscles and connective tissues that you can't get just from BW squats.
I know plenty of people that have had knee surgeries and knee problems and the slow methodical introduction of weighted squats helped them recover, and I believe will help prevent further injury.

ETA- just a disclaimer, I say all this with the expectation that the individual would find a good coach who has dealt with their types of injuries and can help get them started with good form. I'm not advocating anyone go to the gym and throw on 315 (I think I saw a hilarious youtube vid similar to that lol)




Really I feel like our debating is pointless unless we know what the OP's injuries (or any other hypothetical injuries) are. I do agree with most of your post; it would just depend on the extent of injuries.

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Bro, if you've got two bad knees, why in the world are you doing weighted squats?

I've only got one bad knee, but I stay away from them and only do BW leg exercises. You're signing yourself up for early knee replacement if you continue down that route.

Squatting won't wreck knees unless done wrong. In fact, he could find that squatting will in fact help his knee as he builds strength in his muscles and connective tissue.

There's very good reasons for people with bad knees to be squatting.


I totally agree when referring to BW squats, but adding heavy weight to damaged tissues through ROM is short sighted in the grand scheme of things.


So what would you do instead of the squats?


Honestly, that would depend on most people's needs. If you're an MMA fighter or soldier carrying heavy packs, etc..., your needs will be very different from your everyday person. I tend to view fitness as a marathon instead of a sprint, unless you have some other purpose (like the aforementioned needs).

Wall sits, lots of BW squats, bridges, BW lunges, and pistols will give you great results with the absolute minimum joint wear (other than swimming I suppose). Do enough reps of these and you'll find a very satisfactory level of strength, muscle tone, and endurance.

*Edited for formatting


Agree that its a case by case basis, but if BW stuff wouldnt be an issue in your eyes, why would slowly adding weight with the same motion as what you suggest?


For most people, it would be fine. It would just depend on the person's injuries.


Same could be said for what youre recommending. If the injury is bad enough they shouldnt be doing BW anything either. Yes, everything is going to be a case by case basis, but Its not a different enough movement to say its any better than not adding weight. And like Kevin said, and RoG pretty much eluded to, if the patient is progressing enough, youre going to have to start adding weight at some point.


Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics. How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?


Show me the study that proves this...

Its a proven fact that weight bearing exercise can keep your joints/bones in healthier condition because of the response it evokes from the body.

Stop spouting off your opinion (drivel) as fact, as its completely biased and only based on personal experience.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:53:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:

How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?


Not as many as we should see, probably because they grew up hearing crap like
Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:55:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By H46Driver:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:

How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?


Not as many as we should see, probably because they grew up hearing crap like
Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics.



Took the words right out of my mouth.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:11:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:

How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?


Not as many as we should see, probably because they grew up hearing crap like
Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics.


Lol, I love it.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:35:06 PM EST
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:44:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.


You do know that synovial fluid replaces at a much faster rate when there is more force applied to the joint, correct? Yes joint soft tissue isnt very vascular, but activity will cause adaptation, thats why any active recovery is better than passive recovery.

And why are you making age and faster wearing joints mutually exclusive? What do you think wears joints? And please explain to me with the absence of any joint dysfunction or incorrect form why adding weight to the same exact motion will cause a joint to wear faster?
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:02:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.


You do know that synovial fluid replaces at a much faster rate when there is more force applied to the joint, correct? Yes joint soft tissue isnt very vascular, but activity will cause adaptation, thats why any active recovery is better than passive recovery.

And why are you making age and faster wearing joints mutually exclusive? What do you think wears joints? And please explain to me with the absence of any joint dysfunction or incorrect form why adding weight to the same exact motion will cause a joint to wear faster?


I did not mean to insinuate that age and faster wearing of joints were mutually exclusive. If that was what you took away from my post, I apologize for not being clearer. Joints DO wear because of time, but genetics and workload play a large role. I know a guy in his 60's who's in better shape than most 20 year olds. Adding more pressure to moving parts will increase the wear on them. The real question is, is the wear substantial enough to warrant concern? For most people, as I've previously mentioned, this is not going to be an issue, excluding unhealthy weights/genetics/poor form.

I'm afraid we may be saying similar things, but getting lost in semantics.

Sorry to the OP for my massive thread hijack.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:15:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.


You do know that synovial fluid replaces at a much faster rate when there is more force applied to the joint, correct? Yes joint soft tissue isnt very vascular, but activity will cause adaptation, thats why any active recovery is better than passive recovery.

And why are you making age and faster wearing joints mutually exclusive? What do you think wears joints? And please explain to me with the absence of any joint dysfunction or incorrect form why adding weight to the same exact motion will cause a joint to wear faster?


I did not mean to insinuate that age and faster wearing of joints were mutually exclusive. If that was what you took away from my post, I apologize for not being clearer. Joints DO wear because of time, but genetics and workload play a large role. I know a guy in his 60's who's in better shape than most 20 year olds. Adding more pressure to moving parts will increase the wear on them. The real question is, is the wear substantial enough to warrant concern? For most people, as I've previously mentioned, this is not going to be an issue, excluding unhealthy weights/genetics/poor form.

I'm afraid we may be saying similar things, but getting lost in semantics.

Sorry to the OP for my massive thread hijack.


Explain what you mean by this. Please involve surrounding structure like menisci and how the force of pressure is causing the issue...

I ultimately ask this because this goes against everything I ever learned in undergrad. Knee (or any joint for that matter) problems are not caused by increased weight or force being added (unless extremely acute; which doesnt happen with weight lifting/more jumps or falls), they are caused by enough change in joint angle that over use occurs in a certain location. Id like to know why it is you think this? It sounds to me like you believe there is some sort of compression force that will eventually erode the meniscus away, which again isnt the case.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:50:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.


You do know that synovial fluid replaces at a much faster rate when there is more force applied to the joint, correct? Yes joint soft tissue isnt very vascular, but activity will cause adaptation, thats why any active recovery is better than passive recovery.

And why are you making age and faster wearing joints mutually exclusive? What do you think wears joints? And please explain to me with the absence of any joint dysfunction or incorrect form why adding weight to the same exact motion will cause a joint to wear faster?


I did not mean to insinuate that age and faster wearing of joints were mutually exclusive. If that was what you took away from my post, I apologize for not being clearer. Joints DO wear because of time, but genetics and workload play a large role. I know a guy in his 60's who's in better shape than most 20 year olds. Adding more pressure to moving parts will increase the wear on them. The real question is, is the wear substantial enough to warrant concern? For most people, as I've previously mentioned, this is not going to be an issue, excluding unhealthy weights/genetics/poor form.

I'm afraid we may be saying similar things, but getting lost in semantics.

Sorry to the OP for my massive thread hijack.


Explain what you mean by this. Please involve surrounding structure like menisci and how the force of pressure is causing the issue...

I ultimately ask this because this goes against everything I ever learned in undergrad. Knee (or any joint for that matter) problems are not caused by increased weight or force being added (unless extremely acute; which doesnt happen with weight lifting/more jumps or falls), they are caused by enough change in joint angle that over use occurs in a certain location. Id like to know why it is you think this? It sounds to me like you believe there is some sort of compression force that will eventually erode the meniscus away, which again isnt the case.



I'm not worried about the menisci. It's the condyles of the (in this case) tibia and femur rubbing against each other. Both menisci do wonders to ameliorate this, but greater loads on the body will increase the pressure of those two surfaces against each other. With moderate weight, this is not going to be an issue. But I know quite a few grunts who shouldered heavy packs for years in mountainous terrain and their knee cartilage (condyles) are shot to pieces because of it.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:00:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 8:10:05 AM EST by smithc6]
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.


You do know that synovial fluid replaces at a much faster rate when there is more force applied to the joint, correct? Yes joint soft tissue isnt very vascular, but activity will cause adaptation, thats why any active recovery is better than passive recovery.

And why are you making age and faster wearing joints mutually exclusive? What do you think wears joints? And please explain to me with the absence of any joint dysfunction or incorrect form why adding weight to the same exact motion will cause a joint to wear faster?


I did not mean to insinuate that age and faster wearing of joints were mutually exclusive. If that was what you took away from my post, I apologize for not being clearer. Joints DO wear because of time, but genetics and workload play a large role. I know a guy in his 60's who's in better shape than most 20 year olds. Adding more pressure to moving parts will increase the wear on them. The real question is, is the wear substantial enough to warrant concern? For most people, as I've previously mentioned, this is not going to be an issue, excluding unhealthy weights/genetics/poor form.

I'm afraid we may be saying similar things, but getting lost in semantics.

Sorry to the OP for my massive thread hijack.


Explain what you mean by this. Please involve surrounding structure like menisci and how the force of pressure is causing the issue...

I ultimately ask this because this goes against everything I ever learned in undergrad. Knee (or any joint for that matter) problems are not caused by increased weight or force being added (unless extremely acute; which doesnt happen with weight lifting/more jumps or falls), they are caused by enough change in joint angle that over use occurs in a certain location. Id like to know why it is you think this? It sounds to me like you believe there is some sort of compression force that will eventually erode the meniscus away, which again isnt the case.



I'm not worried about the menisci. It's the condyles of the (in this case) tibia and femur rubbing against each other. Both menisci do wonders to ameliorate this, but greater loads on the body will increase the pressure of those two surfaces against each other. With moderate weight, this is not going to be an issue. But I know quite a few grunts who shouldered heavy packs for years in mountainous terrain and their knee cartilage (condyles) are shot to pieces because of it.


How are you sure this was because of pressure and not joint dysfunction? (couple that with pre-existing issues overs years) Walking is a much more dynamic movement with a ton of other factors involved compared to a squat movement. Mountainous terrain for example can be a nightmare because of gravity, eccentric loading on muscle fiber, and added weight during both of those will almost guarantee issues. Squats, the foot never leaves the ground, eliminating the gravity component from the equation. This can be anywhere from 1.5-5x your BW. Again, ultimately comparing those movements, and the issues one can run into when doing them (not to mention speculating on how they occured) to a squat just doesnt make sense.

Oh and BTW condyles arent cartilage. They are part of your bone structure.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:06:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:
If you'll go back through my posts, I never said weighted squats were a problem for most people. I said they would be fine for most people and people without injuries. Did I say that weighted exercise will cause all sorts of disease states and tissue damage, or did I just say that it will wear it faster?

I'm not sure what either of your medical training is, but your cartilage doesn't exactly get better with time. Joint wear and making your muscles stronger and joints healthier are not mutually exclusive.


You do know that synovial fluid replaces at a much faster rate when there is more force applied to the joint, correct? Yes joint soft tissue isnt very vascular, but activity will cause adaptation, thats why any active recovery is better than passive recovery.

And why are you making age and faster wearing joints mutually exclusive? What do you think wears joints? And please explain to me with the absence of any joint dysfunction or incorrect form why adding weight to the same exact motion will cause a joint to wear faster?


I did not mean to insinuate that age and faster wearing of joints were mutually exclusive. If that was what you took away from my post, I apologize for not being clearer. Joints DO wear because of time, but genetics and workload play a large role. I know a guy in his 60's who's in better shape than most 20 year olds. Adding more pressure to moving parts will increase the wear on them. The real question is, is the wear substantial enough to warrant concern? For most people, as I've previously mentioned, this is not going to be an issue, excluding unhealthy weights/genetics/poor form.

I'm afraid we may be saying similar things, but getting lost in semantics.

Sorry to the OP for my massive thread hijack.


Explain what you mean by this. Please involve surrounding structure like menisci and how the force of pressure is causing the issue...

I ultimately ask this because this goes against everything I ever learned in undergrad. Knee (or any joint for that matter) problems are not caused by increased weight or force being added (unless extremely acute; which doesnt happen with weight lifting/more jumps or falls), they are caused by enough change in joint angle that over use occurs in a certain location. Id like to know why it is you think this? It sounds to me like you believe there is some sort of compression force that will eventually erode the meniscus away, which again isnt the case.



I'm not worried about the menisci. It's the condyles of the (in this case) tibia and femur rubbing against each other. Both menisci do wonders to ameliorate this, but greater loads on the body will increase the pressure of those two surfaces against each other. With moderate weight, this is not going to be an issue. But I know quite a few grunts who shouldered heavy packs for years in mountainous terrain and their knee cartilage (condyles) are shot to pieces because of it.


How are you sure this was because of pressure and not joint dysfunction? (couple that with pre-existing issues overs years) Walking is a much more dynamic movement with a ton of other factors involved compared to a squat movement. Mountainous terrain for example can be a nightmare because of gravity, eccentric loading on muscle fiber, and added weight during both of those will almost guarantee issues. Squats, the foot never leaves the ground, eliminating the gravity component from the equation. This can be anywhere from 1.5-5x your BW. Again, ultimately comparing those movements, and the issues one can run into when doing them (not to mention speculating on how they occured) to a squat just doesnt make sense.


You actually raise a good point. It totally could be joint dysfunction.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:33:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 4:35:15 PM EST by AZ-AR15]
Full, deep squats are good for the knees. When you get all the way to the bottom, your hamstrings become stretched out and become active in the exercise. Once you go up, both your hamstrings and quads are contracting in unison, putting even pressure all around the knee. Furthermore, those muscles surrounding the knee will become stronger and larger, offering the knee more support for all activities in life and helping to prevent injury. This is only if you go all the way down. If you do not go below parallel, you will not activate the hamstrings and mostly the quads will pull on the knee creating sheering force on it. That's why you hear about people hurting their knees on squats; it's because they don't have proper form and are creating uneven pressure on their knees.

btw: always start too light. I advise reading "Starting Strength" to help learn the proper form for squats. Also, watch this video series:

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 7:16:19 PM EST
+1 to Smith on the joint dysfunction and knee issues. +1 to the strengthening of all the muscles around the knee joint help reduce pain with OA.

*If squat is performed correctly hamstrings should be active through out the ROM, even just going to parallel. Your hamstrings are not necessarily stretched out in A2G squats at the bottom, your knees are bent which reduces stretch on hamstrings, though one might have really tight hamstrings that they might stretch some in the bottom position.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 7:18:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-AR15:
Full, deep squats are good for the knees. When you get all the way to the bottom, your hamstrings become stretched out and become active in the exercise. Once you go up, both your hamstrings and quads are contracting in unison, putting even pressure all around the knee. Furthermore, those muscles surrounding the knee will become stronger and larger, offering the knee more support for all activities in life and helping to prevent injury. This is only if you go all the way down. If you do not go below parallel, you will not activate the hamstrings and mostly the quads will pull on the knee creating sheering force on it. That's why you hear about people hurting their knees on squats; it's because they don't have proper form and are creating uneven pressure on their knees.

btw: always start too light. I advise reading "Starting Strength" to help learn the proper form for squats. Also, watch this video series:

http://youtu.be/EkF9QD7oCIA
Great series, lots of good tips in there.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 10:12:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By AZ-AR15:
When you get all the way to the bottom, your hamstrings become stretched out and become active in the exercise.

Just a technical point, but I believe whether your hamstrings are used or not is related more to the position of your knees than how deep you go. Aside from that, I agree that deeper squats can be better for the knees.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 2:51:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By H46Driver:
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:

How many 60 and 70 year old men do you see doing weighted squats? Bench press?


Not as many as we should see, probably because they grew up hearing crap like
Weighted exercise will wear joints exponentially faster than normal body mechanics.



I have a 74yr old guy at my gym who still deadlifts 315 for reps, squats 265 for 3 and bench presses 225 x5.

I have several 65-69 year olds that bench/ squat and deadlift much more than that.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 5:25:23 AM EST
OP here.

I am learning a lot from this discussion, thanks.

I can do BW full squats no problem. Knees are a little noisy at first, but no pain.

I gather I should start with the bar in the cage and work my way up slowly.

5x5s?
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:59:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By rgkeller:
OP here.

I am learning a lot from this discussion, thanks.

I can do BW full squats no problem. Knees are a little noisy at first, but no pain.

I gather I should start with the bar in the cage and work my way up slowly.

5x5s?


Yes, be sure to do some good dynamic warmup first. 5x5 is a good rep scheme.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:59:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Any-Cal:
Originally Posted By AZ-AR15:
When you get all the way to the bottom, your hamstrings become stretched out and become active in the exercise.

Just a technical point, but I believe whether your hamstrings are used or not is related more to the position of your knees than how deep you go. Aside from that, I agree that deeper squats can be better for the knees.


This is my understanding as well.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:19:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

Originally Posted By rgkeller:
OP here.

I am learning a lot from this discussion, thanks.

I can do BW full squats no problem. Knees are a little noisy at first, but no pain.

I gather I should start with the bar in the cage and work my way up slowly.

5x5s?


Yes, be sure to do some good dynamic warmup first. 5x5 is a good rep scheme.


+1 to the 5x5
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