Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 8/2/2009 7:01:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 7:25:17 PM EST by SamColt]
Does anybody remember the name of that program? I remember seeing something about the program but I wanted to read more about it.

Apparently the CIA and SF ran a program to infiltrate the ammo supply lines and integrate 7.62 ammo tha would kaboom the AK. I tried wiki but couldn't find anything. The program had a specific name.

ETA Quote from callgood's post blow:

FTW?

"Amid a firefight near the Cambodian border on June 6, 1968, a North Vietnamese Army soldier spotted an American G.I. raising his rifle, and the NVA infantryman pulled his trigger, anticipating a muzzle blast. He got a blast, alright, but not quite what he'd expected." American GI =

"250,000 PSI"



Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:02:32 PM EST
IB4GLOCK
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:02:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 7:03:01 PM EST by molotov357]
project glock

ETA: beaten by 7 seconds
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:03:14 PM EST
Eldest Son
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:03:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By ZedsDeadBaby:
Eldest Son


This.
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:03:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 7:03:57 PM EST by fatboy79]
I have the American Rifleman with the article in it, gimme a sec.
ETA damn too slow.
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:04:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By molotov357:
project glock

ETA: beaten by 7 seconds


Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:08:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 7:10:26 PM EST by callgood]
Project Eldest Son
Link

During the Vietnam War, the Studies And Observations Group (SOG) created an ingenious top-secret program called Project Eldest Son to wreak general mayhem and cause the Viet Cong and NVA to doubt the safety of their guns and ammunition.

Amid a firefight near the Cambodian border on June 6, 1968, a North Vietnamese Army soldier spotted an American G.I. raising his rifle, and the NVA infantryman pulled his trigger, anticipating a muzzle blast. He got a blast, alright, but not quite what he'd expected.

United States 1st Infantry Division troops later found the enemy soldier, sprawled beside his Chinese Type 56 AK, quite dead - but not from small-arms fire. Peculiarly, they could see, his rifle had exploded, its shattered receiver killing him instantly. It seemed a great mystery that his AK had blown up since nothing was blocking the bore. Bad metallurgy, the G.I.s concluded, or possibly defective ammo. It was neither.

In reality, this actual incident was the calculated handiwork of one the Vietnam War's most secret and least understood covert operations: Project Eldest Son. So secret was this sabotage effort that few G.I.s in Southeast Asia ever heard of it or the organization behind it, the innocuously named Studies and Observations Group. As the Vietnam War's top-secret special ops task force, SOG's operators - Army Special Forces, Air Force Air Commandos and Navy SEALs - worked directly for the Joint Chiefs, executing highly classified, deniable missions in the enemy's backyard of Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam.

The genesis of Eldest Son was the fertile mind of SOG's commander, 1966-68, Colonel John K. Singlaub, a World War II veteran of covert actions with the Office of Strategic Services. "I was frustrated by the fact that I couldn't airlift the ammunition we were discovering on the [Ho Chi Minh] Trail" in Laos, Singlaub explained. It was not unusual for SOG's small recon teams - composed of two or three American Green Berets and four to six native soldiers - to find tons of ammunition in enemy base camps and caches along the Laotian highway system. But SOG teams lacked the manpower to secure the sites or carry the ordnance away. Further, it could not be burned up, and demolition would only scatter small-arms ammunition, not destroy it. "Initially I thought of just boobytrapping it so that when they'd pick up a case it would blow up," Singlaub recalled. Then it hit him - boobytrap the ammunition itself!

Though obscure, this trick was not new. In the 1930s, to combat rebellious tribesmen in northwest India's Waziristan - the same lawless region where Taliban and al Qaeda terrorists hide today - the British army planted sabotaged .303 rifle ammunition. Even before that, during the Second Metabele War (1896-97) in today's Zimbabwe, British scouts (led by the American adventurer Frederick Russell Burnham) had slipped explosive- packed rifle cartridges into hostile stockpiles, to deadly effect. SOG would do likewise, the Joint Chiefs decided on August 30, 1967, but first Col. Singlaub arranged for CIA ordnance experts to conduct a quick feasibility study. A few weeks later, at Camp Chinen, Okinawa, Singlaub watched a CIA technician load a sabotaged 7.62x39 mm cartridge into a bench-mounted AK rifle. "It completely blew up the receiver and the bolt was projected backwards," Singlaub observed, "I would imagine into the head of the firer."

After that success began a month of tedious bullet pulling to manually disassemble thousands of 7.62 mm cartridges, made more difficult because Chinese ammo had a tough lacquer seal where the bullet seated into the case. In this process, some bullets suffered tiny scrapes, but when reloaded these marks seated out of sight below the case mouth. Rounds were inspected to ensure they showed no signs of tampering. When the job was done, 11,565 AK rounds had been sabotaged, along with 556 rounds for the Communist Bloc's heavy 12.7 mm machine gun, a major anti-helicopter weapon.

Eldest Son cartridges originally were reloaded with a powder similar to PETN high explosive, but sufficiently shock-sensitive that an ordinary rifle primer would detonate it. This white powder, however, did not even faintly resemble gunpowder. SOG's technical wizard, Ben Baker - our answer to James Bond's "Q" - decided this powder might compromise the program if ever an enemy soldier pulled apart an Eldest Son round. He obtained a substitute explosive that so closely resembled gunpowder that it would pass inspection by anyone but an ordnance expert. While the AKM and Type 56 AKs and the RPD light machine gun could accommodate a chamber pressure of 45,000 p.s.i., Baker's deadly powder generated a whopping 250,000 p.s.i.

Sabotaging the ammunition proved the easiest challenge. The CIA's Okinawa lab also did a very professional job of prying open ammo crates, unsealing the interior metal cans and then repacking them so there was no sign of tampering. In addition to SOG sabotaging 7.62 mm and 12.7 mm rounds, these CIA ordnance experts perfected a special fuse for the Communist 82 mm mortar round that would detonate the hand-dropped projectile while inside the mortar tube, for especially devastating effect. Exactly 1,968 of these mortar rounds were sabotaged, too.

Project Eldest Son's greatest challenge was "placement" - getting the infernal devices into the enemy logistical system without detection. That's where SOG's Green Beret-led recon teams came in. Since the fall of 1965, our small teams had been running deniable missions into Laos to gather intelligence, wiretap enemy communications, kidnap key enemy personnel, ambush convoys, raid supply dumps, plant mines and generally make life as difficult as possible in enemy rear areas. As an additional mission, each team carried along a few Eldest Son rounds - usually as a single round in an otherwise full AK magazine or one round in an RPD machine gun belt or a sealed ammo can - to plant whenever an opportunity arose.

When an SOG team discovered an ammo dump, they planted Eldest Son; when a SOG team ambushed an enemy patrol, they switched magazines in a dead soldier's AK. It was critically important never to plant more than one round per magazine, belt or ammo can, so no amount of searching after a gun exploded would uncover a second round, to preclude the enemy from determining this was sabotage.

Planting sabotaged 82 mm mortar ammo proved more cumbersome because these were not transported as loose rounds, but in three-round, wooden cases. Thus, you had to tote a whole case, which must have weighed more than 25 lbs. Twice I recall carrying such crates for insertion in enemy rear areas, and to our surprise, my team once witnessed a platoon of NVA soldiers carry one away. SOG's most clever insertion was accomplished by SOG SEALS operating in the Mekong Delta, where they filled a captured sampan with tainted cases of ammunition, shot it tastefully full of bullet holes, then spilled chicken blood over it and set it adrift upstream from a known Viet Cong village. Of course, the VC assumed the boat's Communist crew had fallen overboard during an ambush. The Viet Cong took the ammunition, hook, line and sinker.

In Laos, American B-52s constantly targeted enemy logistical areas, which churned up sizeable pieces of terrain. SOG exploited this opportunity by organizing a special team that landed just after B-52 strikes to construct false bunkers in such devastated tracts, then "salt" these stockpiles with Eldest Son ammunition. However, on November 30, 1968, the helicopter carrying SOG's secret Eldest Son team, flying some 20 miles west of the Khe Sanh Marine base, was hit by an enemy 37 mm anti-aircraft round, setting off a tremendous mid-air explosion. Seven cases of tainted 82 mm mortar ammunition detonated, killing everyone on board, including Maj. Samuel Toomey and seven U.S. Army Green Berets. Their remains were not recovered for 20 years.

But as a result of these cross- border efforts, Eldest Son rounds began to turn up inside South Vietnam. In a northern province, 101st Airborne Division paratroopers found a dead Communist soldier grasping his exploded rifle, while an officer at SOG's Saigon headquarters, Captain Ed Lesesne, received the photo of a dead enemy soldier with his bolt blown out the back of his AK. "It had gone right through his eye socket," Lesesne reported.

Chad Spawr, an intelligence specialist with the 1st Infantry Division, heard of such a case but, "didn't believe it until they walked me over and opened up the body bag, and there he was, with the weapon in the bag." Unaware of SOG's covert program, Spawr attributed the incident to inferior weapons and ammo.

Boobytrapped mortar rounds took their toll, too. Twenty-Fifth Infantry Division soldiers came upon an entire enemy mortar battery destroyed - four peeled back tubes with dead gunners. In another incident, a 101st Airborne firebase was taking mortar fire when there was an odd-sounding, "boom-pff!" A patrol later found two enemy bodies beside a split mortar tube and blood trails going off into the jungle. On July 3, 1968, after an enemy mortar attack on Ban Me Thuot airstrip, nine Communist soldiers were found dead in one firing position, their tube so badly shattered that it had vanished but for two small fragments.

Boobytrapped ammunition clearly was getting into enemy hands, so it was time to initiate SOG's insidious "black psyop" exploitation. "Our interest was not in killing the soldier that was using the weapon," explained Colonel Steve Cavanaugh, who replaced Singlaub in 1968. "We were trying to leave in the minds of the North Vietnamese that the ammunition they were getting from China was bad ammunition." Hopefully, this would aggravate Hanoi's leadership - which traditionally distrusted the Chinese - and cause individual soldiers to question the reliability (and safety) of their Chinese-supplied arms and ordnance.

One Viet Cong document - forged by SOG and insinuated into enemy channels through a double-agent - made light of exploding weapons, claiming, "We know that it is rumored some of the ammunition has exploded in the AK-47. This report is greatly exaggerated. It is a very, very small percentage of the ammunition that has exploded."

Another forged document announced, "Only a few thousand such cases have been found thus far," and concluded, "The People's Republic of China may have been having some quality control problems [but] these are being worked out and we think that in the future there will be very little chance of this happening."

That, "in the future," hook was especially devious, because an enemy soldier looking at lot numbers could see that virtually all his ammo had been loaded years earlier. No fresh ammo could possibly reach soldiers fighting in the South for many years.

Next came an overt "safety" campaign, with Military Assistance Command Vietnam (MACV) publishing Technical Intelligence Brief No. 2-68, "Analysis of Damaged Weapons." Openly circulated to U.S. and South Vietnamese units, this SOG-inspired study examined several exploded AKs, concluding they were destroyed by "defective metallurgy resulting in fatigue cracks" or "faulty ammunition, which produced excessive chamber pressure." An SOG operative left a copy at a Saigon bar whose owners were suspected enemy agents.

Under the guise of cautioning G.I.s against using enemy weapons, warnings were sent to Armed Forces Radio and TV. The civilian Stateside tabloid Army Times warned, "Numerous incidents have caused injury and sometimes death to the operators of enemy weapons," the cause of which was, "defective metallurgy" or "faulty ammo." The 25th Infantry Division newspaper similarly warned soldiers on July 14, 1969, that, "because of poor quality control procedures in Communist Bloc factories, many AKs with even a slight malfunction will blow up when fired." Despite such warnings, some G.I.s fired captured arms, and inevitably one American's souvenir AK exploded, inflicting serious (but not fatal) injuries.

That incident spurned SOG itself to stop using captured ammunition in our own AKs and RPD machine guns. SOG purchased commercial 7.62 mm ammunition through a Finnish middleman - and, ironically, this ammo, which SOG's covert operators fired at their Communist foes - had been manufactured in a Soviet arsenal in Petrograd.

By mid-1969, word about Eldest Son began leaking out, with articles in the New York Times and Time, compelling SOG to change the codename to Italian Green, and later, to Pole Bean. As of July 1, 1969, a declassified report discloses, SOG operatives had inserted 3,638 rounds of sabotaged 7.62 mm, plus 167 rounds of 12.7 mm and 821 rounds of 82 mm mortar ammunition. That fall, the Joint Chiefs directed SOG to dispose of its remaining stockpile and end the program. In November, my team was specially tasked to insert as much Eldest Son as possible, making multiple landings on the Laotian border to get rid of the stuff before authority expired.

Lacking the earlier finesse, such insertions had to have confirmed to the enemy that we were sabotaging his ammunition-but even this, SOG believed, was psychologically useful, creating a big shell game in which the enemy had to question endlessly which ammunition was polluted and which was not. The enemy came to fear any cache where there was evidence that SOG recon teams got near it and, thanks to radio intercepts, SOG headquarters learned that the enemy's highest levels of command had expressed concerns about exploding arms, Chinese quality control and sabotage. In that sense, Project Eldest Son was a total success - but as with any such covert deception program, you can never quite be sure.
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:10:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 7:11:37 PM EST by SamColt]
thanks men. That's it!

I was hoping for more from wiki like pics and what not. Oh well knowing the name is a good starting point.

This one looks like a decent read

Eldest Son

ETA to remove dupe - thanks callgood

Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:29:44 PM EST
Maybe we need to drop some off in Astan!


Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:34:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By ilike9s:
Maybe we need to drop some off in Astan!




That's what I was thinking. And I'd bet those dip shits would pick up anything and shoot it. Problem is the libtards in congress would have to be briefed on it, it would be leaked, and the US would be the bad guys....
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 8:53:27 PM EST
also called "Italian Green"
Eldest Son was more common, but in some books by SOG veterans call it Italian green
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 8:56:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By ilike9s:
Maybe we need to drop some off in Astan!




We need to drop some off in downtown, Anywhere,USA. Preferably in 9mm and "foetay".

Link Posted: 8/2/2009 8:57:39 PM EST
It's described in the book "SOG" along with some other great sabotage and psyops stuff. A great read!
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 9:02:33 PM EST
Read SOG by John Plaster. It'll change your life trust me
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:40:11 AM EST
I'm still amazed by 250K PSI. Victor Charlie no likey me thinky
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:44:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By molotov357:
project glock

ETA: beaten by 7 seconds





Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:45:45 AM EST
They also had Eldest Son mortar shells.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:48:29 AM EST
I had not heard of this.
Very interesting.

Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:49:49 AM EST
We shouldn't talk about this...if Obama gets wind of it he may want to compensate the victim's families.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:50:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/3/2009 7:58:19 AM EST by Texkaw]

Good reason to avoid using battlefield pickup rifles with the ammo that came with it, at the time.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:55:22 AM EST
I see the NY Time attempts to sabotage our military is not a new phenomena.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:07:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By molotov357:
project glock

ETA: beaten by 7 seconds


Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:30:19 AM EST
I had heard about this but hadnt really heard any facts about it very interesting read. Does make you wonder though how many got killed or wounded we dont know about....
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:35:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
We shouldn't talk about this...if Obama gets wind of it he may want to compensate the victim's families.




Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:39:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/3/2009 8:40:13 AM EST by crurifragium]
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt FTMFW.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:49:59 AM EST
A friend of mine just gave me half a box of OLD 9mm this weekend.

Should I shoot it?
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:59:06 AM EST
:)

I knew about the program, but not the details. I love the part about the forged chinese documents.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:03:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By Texkaw:

Good reason to avoid using battlefield pickup rifles with the ammo that came with it, at the time.


Had a Lt Col pick one up and when he went to the range to fire it it exploded on him....didn't kill em but fucked up his face and hands
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:19:36 AM EST
The notion of sabotaging mortar rounds reminds me of the liveleak vid of the insurgent heaving mortar rounds and having one detonate in the tube in Iraq...always good for a laugh
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:22:57 AM EST


By mid-1969, word about Eldest Son began leaking out, with articles in the New York Times and Time, compelling SOG to change the codename to Italian Green, and later, to Pole Bean. As of July 1, 1969, a declassified report discloses, SOG operatives had inserted 3,638 rounds of sabotaged 7.62 mm, plus 167 rounds of 12.7 mm and 821 rounds of 82 mm mortar ammunition. That fall, the Joint Chiefs directed SOG to dispose of its remaining stockpile and end the program. In November, my team was specially tasked to insert as much Eldest Son as possible, making multiple landings on the Laotian border to get rid of the stuff before authority expired.





Those NYTimes reporters should have been hung.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:34:23 AM EST
I scored a bunch of Chicom copper washed 7.62X39 a couple years ago, right around the time the article about Eldest Son appeared in one of the gun mags.
Ammo is dated 1966. Made me think twice before shooting it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:38:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
The notion of sabotaging mortar rounds reminds me of the liveleak vid of the insurgent heaving mortar rounds and having one detonate in the tube in Iraq...always good for a laugh



http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss13/robdodson/7mm/Video/?action=view¤t=Meet-Allah.flv

Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:48:52 AM EST
That incident spurned SOG itself to stop using captured ammunition in our own AKs and RPD machine guns. SOG purchased commercial 7.62 mm ammunition through a Finnish middleman - and, ironically, this ammo, which SOG's covert operators fired at their Communist foes - had been manufactured in a Soviet arsenal in Petrograd.


Doom on you, Charlie!
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 5:21:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By ABN-RGR:
Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
We shouldn't talk about this...if Obama gets wind of it he may want to compensate the victim's families.






LOL

and FUCK the NY Times
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 5:42:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/3/2009 5:42:38 PM EST by bmick325]
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
The notion of sabotaging mortar rounds reminds me of the liveleak vid of the insurgent heaving mortar rounds and having one detonate in the tube in Iraq...always good for a laugh



I would laugh even more if it turned out to be some "Eldest Son" ammo that had been surplussed by the Vietnamese after the war and passed through multiple hands before ending up in Iraq 35 years later.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 5:51:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By toaster:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
The notion of sabotaging mortar rounds reminds me of the liveleak vid of the insurgent heaving mortar rounds and having one detonate in the tube in Iraq...always good for a laugh



http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss13/robdodson/7mm/Video/?action=view¤t=Meet-Allah.flv




I have no doubt we have used these methods from time to time, since the 60s.

I also read where are troops would find these ammo caches, they would find large caches of rice. They would piss on the sacks, thus denying the VC and NVA food also.

Link Posted: 8/3/2009 5:55:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By 357mag:


By mid-1969, word about Eldest Son began leaking out, with articles in the New York Times and Time, compelling SOG to change the codename to Italian Green, and later, to Pole Bean. As of July 1, 1969, a declassified report discloses, SOG operatives had inserted 3,638 rounds of sabotaged 7.62 mm, plus 167 rounds of 12.7 mm and 821 rounds of 82 mm mortar ammunition. That fall, the Joint Chiefs directed SOG to dispose of its remaining stockpile and end the program. In November, my team was specially tasked to insert as much Eldest Son as possible, making multiple landings on the Laotian border to get rid of the stuff before authority expired.





Those NYTimes reporters should have been hung.

Yeah, don'tcha just LOVE it? Took those dirty commie fucks what, a year to deliberately fuck us?

Why can't we just deport "journalists" who seek to do nothing more than collaborate with the enemy? By "deport," I mean place them in a construction dumpster and "deport" the lot out of the back of a C-130 over the Atlantic @ 20,000 feet.

Hell, we could stick the remaining douchebags from Guantanamo Bay there as well. Clear up that little "gotta try them in US courts" drama we're having.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 5:56:49 PM EST
Israel has a long-running similar project. Hamas have to thoroughly check everything they get.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:00:15 PM EST
Very Interesting... TAG

- Clint
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:01:48 PM EST
Eldest Son was a CIA initiative that was carried out by SOG.

If you are interested in reading more about CIA covert operations in Southeast Asia, I recommend COVERT OPS by James Parker, a former CIA paramilitary officer who served in Laos.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:03:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:04:47 PM EST
Had a teacher in HS tell me about this. Helluva guy.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:13:17 PM EST
I can't help but wonder what the MV would be on the bullet if the chamber pressure hit 250K.


CJ
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:21:11 PM EST
Awesome.

Knew it was done, had read about it, never knew the name of the mission/program.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:21:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I can't help but wonder what the MV would be on the bullet if the chamber pressure hit 250K.


CJ



Slightly slower than the velocity of the bits of bolt coming back in your face.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:32:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By bmick325:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
The notion of sabotaging mortar rounds reminds me of the liveleak vid of the insurgent heaving mortar rounds and having one detonate in the tube in Iraq...always good for a laugh



I would laugh even more if it turned out to be some "Eldest Son" ammo that had been surplussed by the Vietnamese after the war and passed through multiple hands before ending up in Iraq 35 years later.




Afghani version of the CMP???

Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:35:13 PM EST
I really doubt this was much of a succesful program. It probably had SOME, but not anywhere close to breaking the enemy's confidence in his weapons and ammunition.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:00:04 PM EST
cool
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:52:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/3/2009 9:52:55 PM EST by Armin_Tanzarian]
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really doubt this was much of a succesful program. It probably had SOME, but not anywhere close to breaking the enemy's confidence in his weapons and ammunition.


From my understanding it was partially to create further tension between the NVA regulars and the Chinese suppliers and advisors.

In Plaster's book, SOG, there was a part about how our guys hung posters in the jungle taunting the NVA that while they were out fighting in the jungle there were Chinese guys back home banging their wives. Each post along the trail got smaller and smaller until it was so small they had to get right up to it to read it and it was booby trapped.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 10:07:00 PM EST
OST.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top