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Posted: 10/28/2004 10:22:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 10:41:39 AM EDT by vito113]
Sorry, but the Germans must never be allowed to forget their evil past

Simon Heffer; Daily Mail;

09:52am 27th October 2004

There can be little doubt that if you were German you'd want to rewrite your history. After all, the responsibility for two world wars, the murder of six million people in concentration camps and another 15 million outside them - all within living memory - are acts with which only a masochist or a psychopath would want to associate himself.

In recent days, though, the campaign to airbrush the evil out of the Teutonic past has assumed a new vitality. Last week Joschka Fischer, the Fourth Reich's foreign minister, complained on a visit here that the British view of Germany was an obsession with "goose-stepping Prussians", whereas his country was now peopled by "real democrats".

Then it was revealed that a new European Union-sponsored history makes no mention of the apparently minor events of both world wars, or of Winston Churchill and Britain's heroic, lone resistance to Fascism in 1940. Brief mention is made of Hitler, none at all of the Nazis.

Yesterday, it was reported that a group of British history teachers are spending their half-term in Germany, being persuaded (at the German taxpayers' expense) to take a more benign view of the country and its past.

Atonement

Certainly, Germany paid the price for Hitler's wickedness between 1933 and 1945. It was bombed in places almost to obliteration. Its people were killed and - once the Russians arrived - raped and robbed in their millions.

It was dismembered into two unequal halves, the smaller of which endured 44 years of Soviet tyranny.

However, it is right to see what Germany went through after the war not as gratuitous suffering, but as a necessary act of national atonement for some of the greatest crimes ever committed. Hitler was, after all, democratically elected, and had made no secret - in his personal manifesto, Mein Kampf - of what he intended to do, not least to the Jews.

Perhaps, after 60 years, the atonement can be considered complete. Many Germans, like Herr Fischer, certainly think so. Some Germans are arguing, quite justifiably, that in a world that produced Stalin and Chairman Mao at around the same time, it is simply wrong to regard Hitler as uniquely evil.

Yet to suggest that, out of politeness, the rest of Europe should simply pretend that the bad old days never happened is sheer absurdity. They did, and they need to be remembered as a lesson to future generations, and to understand why Europe and our world are as they are today.

The sad fact for Germans is that their most magnificent contribution to the world took place before Germany existed. When the Germanic peoples lived in small kingdoms and principalities, and before Germany was united by Bismarck in 1871 - unencumbered by the diversion of rampant nationalism - they were at their finest.

The pre-unified Germany produced some of the greatest composers ever, such as J.S. Bach, Beethoven and Wagner. It produced legendary writers such as Schiller and Goethe. It gave birth to ground-breaking philosophers such as Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. It created magnificent mediaeval cities such as Nuremberg and Heidelberg, the renaissance gem of Dresden, and the opulent palace of Sans Souci, home of the Hohenzollern kings of Prussia at Potsdam.

Once German states began to federate in the late 1860s, militarism and expansionism became the German obsession. It was to lead to 80 years in which Germany caused more human misery than any other nation in the history of mankind. Throughout their existence, the Second Reich (formed by the unification of 1871) and the Third (under Hitler) challenged and threatened their neighbours, and ultimately sought to destroy them.

Unification was achieved by war. Bismarck, one of the greatest and most cunning statesmen in European history, managed cynically to provoke an ill-prepared France into war against the mighty Prussian military machine in 1870. The victory of the smaller Prussia against the far greater France the following year left Prussia as the master of Germany, and the Hohenzollern king became Germany's first Kaiser.

The next 40 years until the Great War saw autocracy and repression at home, and menaces and threats issued abroad.

Threatened

Because he felt threatened by the Royal Navy, Kaiser Wilhelm II - 'Kaiser Bill' of the 1914-18 war - started an arms race that built up his own. The Schlieffen Plan, named after the General who drew it up, was devised for the conquest of France. All that was needed was an excuse: and French support for Serbia against Austria in the summer of 1914, after the assassination of the heir to the Austrian throne in Sarajevo, neatly provided it.

The Kaiser's lust for war not only wiped out the flower of a younger generation of European men; it also destroyed his own Empire, toppled his own throne and caused a continental-wide economic crisis that lasted, in different phases, well into the 1930s.

The Great War greatly reduced Britain's economic and political power, beginning the process that led to the loss of Empire. The vulnerability of the Tsar and his armies opened the way to the Russian revolution of 1917 and, eventually, the Soviet bloc. The Weimar republic that replaced the Hohenzollerns' rule was decadent, incompetent and doomed to political and economic disaster. It gave the perfect opening for a ruthless and calculating politician such as Hitler.

Some German commentators now point to how Hitler modernised Germany, how he improved the health and living standards of his people (unless they happened to be Jewish or failed in some other way to conform), and how he solved the terrible unemployment problem in the Reich.

But the price that the Germans, and the rest of the world, paid for those advances was, to say the least, excessive.

Had it not been for this key part played by Germany in the affairs of the late 19th and the 20th centuries, Europe and the world today would look remarkably different. There might have been neither of the world wars which together cost the lives of around 70 million people. There might have been no Russian revolution and no spread of international communism.

The world would have been less impoverished, more prosperous, and perhaps much better ordered. And there might well be no EU, formed as it was out of the determination of French and German statesmen in the late 1940s and early 1950s never to go to war again - by never allowing the Germans to dominate Europe.


Next month, the Queen is making a state visit to Germany. One stop will be in Dresden, devastated by the RAF in 1945. Her advisers, mindful of the Germans' new sensitivities about the past, may be suggesting to her that some apology might be in order.

It isn't. Not because Dresden was a key post on the Wehrmacht's supply lines to the Eastern front, and was as such a legitimate target; but because in the war Hitler started, right, justice and humanity were on our side.

No one disputes that modern Germany is a different country. But if it chooses to block out of its collective memory the immense wrongs for which it was responsible and, aided and abetted by the EU, seeks to pretend the period from 1870 to 1945 never happened, it will live a lie that could lead it to repeat the same hideous mistakes all over again.


www.dailymail.co.uk
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:23:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 10:25:39 AM EDT by paenutz]
But Americans can?


^see what hapens when you post before you red.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:26:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:28:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 10:38:01 AM EDT by paenutz]

Originally Posted By Defcon:

Originally Posted By paenutz:
But Americans can?


^see what hapens when you post before you red.



You mean 'READ'?





No I cant do that either.


ETA:

No one disputes that modern Germany is a different country. But if it chooses to block out of its collective memory the immense wrongs for which it was responsible and, aided and abetted by the EU, seeks to pretend the period from 1870 to 1945 never happened, it will live a lie that could lead it to repeat the same hideous mistakes all over again.


That is nothing short of idiotic.
How can a country change if it is constantly,
Reminded off its prior shortcomings?
Being proud of your heritage is not the same as
being proud of other People’s mistakes.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:31:43 AM EDT
I agree that Germany has had a sordid past and that it shouldn't be forgotten. However, Stalin killed about 4 times as many people and there aren't huge outcries about not forgetting that. The Khmer Rouge killed 1.5 million individuals based on their ideals, which isn't any different from what Hitler did. Genocide is always going on in Africa... but we are only told again and again about the Jews. Why? I whole-heartedly agree that what the Germans did under Hitler was a travesty, but just because Jews died doesn't make it anymore important.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:36:38 AM EDT
A people are responsible for what their gov't does. We are all soldiers in a way.

As for Germany, it is interesing. They would very much like to forget. Or maybe denial is a more appropriate term. when I was in medschool we had a guy from Germany do a rotation with us. He informed me that there was no such thing as the "Battle of the Bulge". Pretty much denied alot of the atrocities committed also and this guy was obviously well educated.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:40:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 10:40:36 AM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By EternallyIndebted:
I agree that Germany has had a sordid past and that it shouldn't be forgotten. However, Stalin killed about 4 times as many people and there aren't huge outcries about not forgetting that. The Khmer Rouge killed 1.5 million individuals based on their ideals, which isn't any different from what Hitler did. Genocide is always going on in Africa... but we are only told again and again about the Jews. Why? I whole-heartedly agree that what the Germans did under Hitler was a travesty, but just because Jews died doesn't make it anymore important.



The differnce is that (a) Stalin's purges were policial & not targeting one racial/ethnic group, thus making them less 'problematic' to the folks who write the books over here (well, that and he was a convenient ally against the Nazis), and (b) with the exception of Hitler & Stalin, all of the rest of it has occured in 'Turd World' countries where we expect the 'savages' to do such things....
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:42:37 AM EDT
Wow, a newspaper calling the Soviet occupation of Europe tyrannical? How refreshing.

How Orwellian, rewriting history. Coming from a bunch of nitwits that see America as a threat to world peace....

Vito, you gotta move to the States, man.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:46:18 AM EDT
I agree, however targeting a citizen because of their race or political agenda is equal to me. It doesn't matter what reason motivates you are to commit crimes against humanity, it only matters that you are. However, I understand what you are getting at: the people in power want to depict events in the fashion that they wish.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:51:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 10:53:20 AM EDT by 1Andy2]
Um, most historians don't saddle Germany with the blame for WW I. At least not exclusively.

ETA: and Hitler only ever recieved at most 37% of the vote in a free election. He only won subsequent elections by virtue of having the SA at all the polling places to make sure people voted the right way.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:52:12 AM EDT
I don't agree with this. The greater majority of the population of Germany wasn't even alive when any of this happened. To constantly throw their predecessors errors into their faces is ridiculous. They know what happened with their prior leaders, ancestors, you can't hold it against the people there now!! My mother's german and I would never sit there and remind her "Your father slaughtered jews." Why Hitler came into power needs to be researched more by these people before saying they knew what he was planning on doing. Germany was in a massive depression and couldn't get out of it. They saw Hitler as a last hope with the promises that he'd made to their country! And contrary to popular belief, not everyone fighting in the Nazi army wanted to be a Nazi soldier!!! My grandfather didn't want to but had two choices...fight or die. Germany's suffered in return. I wouldn't throw various US wars into the faces of the people of this nation and I refuse to do the same to any other specific country. Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the people who started the war! Osama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc. etc. not on the country they were from.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:54:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By paenutz:

Originally Posted By Defcon:
Originally Posted By paenutz:


ETA: No one disputes that modern Germany is a different country. But if it chooses to block out of its collective memory the immense wrongs for which it was responsible and, aided and abetted by the EU, seeks to pretend the period from 1870 to 1945 never happened, it will live a lie that could lead it to repeat the same hideous mistakes all over again.



That is nothing short of idiotic.
How can a country change if it is constantly,
Reminded off its prior shortcomings?
Being proud of your heritage is not the same as
being proud of other People’s mistakes.



But this is the problem… so as not to 'offend' the EU has published an official 'History' of Europe that makes no mention of all that 'unpleasantness' in 1914-18 and 1933-45 or the Nazis… this book is now being used in some European schools… we could see a whole generation of 'new europeans' being educated with a new 'politically correct' euro-history…

"Those that do not learn from history are doomed to make the same mistakes"


ANdy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:56:34 AM EDT
Personnally, I think we never should have taken down the wall.


Sgtar15
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:59:54 AM EDT
Great Britain has done a world of evil in their day as well.
Hell, even WE threw the bastards out because of their greed and cruelty.
Shall we remind all Brits of their tyranny from now till eternity as well?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:00:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Personnally, I think we never should have taken down the wall.


Sgtar15



I can agree with you 100% on this one Sgtar15… I miss the simplicity of the Cold War… good guys and bad guys and no shades of grey.

ANdy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:03:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By paenutz:

Originally Posted By Defcon:
Originally Posted By paenutz:


ETA: No one disputes that modern Germany is a different country. But if it chooses to block out of its collective memory the immense wrongs for which it was responsible and, aided and abetted by the EU, seeks to pretend the period from 1870 to 1945 never happened, it will live a lie that could lead it to repeat the same hideous mistakes all over again.



That is nothing short of idiotic.
How can a country change if it is constantly,
Reminded off its prior shortcomings?
Being proud of your heritage is not the same as
being proud of other People’s mistakes.



But this is the problem… so as not to 'offend' the EU has published an official 'History' of Europe that makes no mention of all that 'unpleasantness' in 1914-18 and 1933-45 or the Nazis… this book is now being used in some European schools… we could see a whole generation of 'new europeans' being educated with a new 'politically correct' euro-history…

"Those that do not learn from history are doomed to make the same mistakes"


ANdy



I agree that history should be taught as it happened,
I am not saying that it should be forgotten in the books.

I am just tired of the stigma Germans have to deal with,
Regarding their past and the Nazis.
If they aren’t afforded the opportunity to shed that Stigma
Then the tone Europe holds towards them will never change.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:06:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:
I don't agree with this. The greater majority of the population of Germany wasn't even alive when any of this happened. To constantly throw their predecessors errors into their faces is ridiculous. They know what happened with their prior leaders, ancestors, you can't hold it against the people there now!! My mother's german and I would never sit there and remind her "Your father slaughtered jews." Why Hitler came into power needs to be researched more by these people before saying they knew what he was planning on doing. Germany was in a massive depression and couldn't get out of it. They saw Hitler as a last hope with the promises that he'd made to their country! And contrary to popular belief, not everyone fighting in the Nazi army wanted to be a Nazi soldier!!! My grandfather didn't want to but had two choices...fight or die. Germany's suffered in return. I wouldn't throw various US wars into the faces of the people of this nation and I refuse to do the same to any other specific country. Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the people who started the war! Osama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc. etc. not on the country they were from.




Yet again someone has explained my point more
Eloquently then I can.

Thnx. HH,

+1
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:07:51 AM EDT
I agree with Vito113 that the attrocities shouldn't be erased from the history books. I'm not talking about beating modern Germany about the head for the mistakes of it's ancestors (though there are still SS soldiers who are still alive). I'm simply talking about not doing a cover up. I honestly fear that history will literally repeat itself if people forget the lessons that are to be learned.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:09:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:10:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 11:11:56 AM EDT by FRSHOOTER]
Amazing!!!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:12:21 AM EDT
What about the indians?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:12:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Personnally, I think we never should have taken down the wall.


Sgtar15



I can agree with you 100% on this one Sgtar15… I miss the simplicity of the Cold War… good guys and bad guys and no shades of grey.

ANdy


You obviously didn't work and live at ground zero. It was not fun living under that nuclear shadow. I'm glad as hell the wall came down and proud that I had something to with it.

CW
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:14:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:
I don't agree with this. The greater majority of the population of Germany wasn't even alive when any of this happened. To constantly throw their predecessors errors into their faces is ridiculous. They know what happened with their prior leaders, ancestors, you can't hold it against the people there now!! My mother's german and I would never sit there and remind her "Your father slaughtered jews." Why Hitler came into power needs to be researched more by these people before saying they knew what he was planning on doing. Germany was in a massive depression and couldn't get out of it. They saw Hitler as a last hope with the promises that he'd made to their country! And contrary to popular belief, not everyone fighting in the Nazi army wanted to be a Nazi soldier!!! My grandfather didn't want to but had two choices...fight or die. Germany's suffered in return. I wouldn't throw various US wars into the faces of the people of this nation and I refuse to do the same to any other specific country. Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the people who started the war! Osama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc. etc. not on the country they were from.




You act like the citizens of a nation aren't responsible for the actions that nation takes. Even if it would have been a harsh sacrifice to fight and die in opposition to Hitler, it would have been the right thing to do. Hitler didn't start the war by himself, either. He only had the power that the people vested in him, even though that power was subscribed to by force. There is ALWAYS a different course of action, the question is: are you willing to make the sacrifice for that course? Furthermore, the negligence of a country is the responsibility of the people... in the same way that the tyranny of a government over the people is the people's responsibility to overthrow it. They can't side-step responsibility just because it is a heavy burden to bear.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:16:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:
I agree with Vito113 that the attrocities shouldn't be erased from the history books. I'm not talking about beating modern Germany about the head for the mistakes of it's ancestors (though there are still SS soldiers who are still alive). I'm simply talking about not doing a cover up. I honestly fear that history will literally repeat itself if people forget the lessons that are to be learned.



Thank you Shane333

This is EXACTLY the point! I don't blame the current Germans either for what happened, but myself and many others here in Britain are somewhat alarmed at the EU's and German Governments attempts at revision of history in order to fit in with the new EU federal aganda.

ANdy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:18:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:18:40 AM EDT
Here's my favorite. My family is of Germanic origin. The first ones came to this land (it sure as shit wasn't a country yet) in 1752. I have a tattoo on my back of a German Imperial Eagle because I am proud of my heritage. Time and again I hear how it's a Nazi eagle, that I should be ashamed of being German, that what "my people" did was horrible, etc. etc. It's just as stupid for blacks to hold me responsible for slavery as it is for jews to hold me responsible for the holocaust.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:22:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 11:23:54 AM EDT by vito113]

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Personnally, I think we never should have taken down the wall.


Sgtar15



I can agree with you 100% on this one Sgtar15… I miss the simplicity of the Cold War… good guys and bad guys and no shades of grey.

ANdy


You obviously didn't work and live at ground zero. It was not fun living under that nuclear shadow. I'm glad as hell the wall came down and proud that I had something to with it.

CW



Beg to differ… my billet during the Cold War was as a Merchant Marine Engineer Officer on Oil Tankers tasked with REFORGER convoys if the big one went down… we were briefed to expect 100% casualties on most convoys.

My home town/Port of Portsmouth was reckoned to be the target for up to 5 air and ground bursts… exciting times.

I think you miss the slightly humorous nature of my comment. The world was basically much more settled during those days… not the state of constant turmoil we live with now.

Andy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:27:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By norman74:
Here's my favorite. My family is of Germanic origin. The first ones came to this land (it sure as shit wasn't a country yet) in 1752. I have a tattoo on my back of a German Imperial Eagle because I am proud of my heritage. Time and again I hear how it's a Nazi eagle, that I should be ashamed of being German, that what "my people" did was horrible, etc. etc. It's just as stupid for blacks to hold me responsible for slavery as it is for jews to hold me responsible for the holocaust.



Exactly, I am sick of being called a Nazi if I say that I am proud of my heritage.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:31:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
The world was basically much more settled during those days… not the state of constant turmoil we live with now.



Towards the end perhaps. I have no idea of your age, but to many people that grew up in the '50s the threat of nuclear war was just as real and just as ominous as the current threat of terrorism. My father lived in Palm Beach County Florida and stood on the beach and watched the Navy ships head south to blockade Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. My mother was an Airforce brat and lived on various bases all over the world and the threat of nuclear war was very real to them.

Since it's not the point of this thread, I will reserve making any parallels between their time and ours.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:31:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Personnally, I think we never should have taken down the wall.


Sgtar15



I can agree with you 100% on this one Sgtar15… I miss the simplicity of the Cold War… good guys and bad guys and no shades of grey.

ANdy


You obviously didn't work and live at ground zero. It was not fun living under that nuclear shadow. I'm glad as hell the wall came down and proud that I had something to with it.

CW



Beg to differ… my billet during the Cold War was as a Merchant Marine Engineer Officer on Oil Tankers tasked with REFORGER convoys if the big one went down… we were briefed to expect 100% casualties on most convoys.

My home town/Port of Portsmouth was reckoned to be the target for up to 5 air and ground bursts… exciting times.

I think you miss the slightly humorous nature of my comment. The world was basically much more settled during those days… not the state of constant turmoil we live with now.

Andy


Sorry. I get a little emotional about the Cold War as I worked at Lockheed in Sunnyvale, CA. Right next to the Blue Cube and Moffet NAS, two targets with multiple inbounds planned. As part of my job at one point I had to become acquainted with the inner workings of nuclear blast effects on infrastructure and populations, projected damage to the US Ccubed and the survivability/reconstitution of our country. Not a pretty thing. Glad you understand.

CW
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:31:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EternallyIndebted:
I agree that Germany has had a sordid past and that it shouldn't be forgotten. However, Stalin killed about 4 times as many people and there aren't huge outcries about not forgetting that. The Khmer Rouge killed 1.5 million individuals based on their ideals, which isn't any different from what Hitler did. Genocide is always going on in Africa... but we are only told again and again about the Jews. Why? I whole-heartedly agree that what the Germans did under Hitler was a travesty, but just because Jews died doesn't make it anymore important.



You are obviously new around here.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:33:54 AM EDT
I don't have a problem with being proud of their heritage, but what I do have a big fucking problem with is people wanting to live off of all that America has to offer and then try to influence their new country with their old country. If you immigrated to this country, then the state of your former country obviously wasn't pleasing to you. It's like Mexicans immigrating to America and then bringing all their Mexican culture and trying to make us speak Spanish. Like little China in New York where all they speak is some asian dialect. Come to America, prosper yourself and the nation, but don't try to make us like some amalgam state of ethnicities.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:34:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By EternallyIndebted:
I agree that Germany has had a sordid past and that it shouldn't be forgotten. However, Stalin killed about 4 times as many people and there aren't huge outcries about not forgetting that. The Khmer Rouge killed 1.5 million individuals based on their ideals, which isn't any different from what Hitler did. Genocide is always going on in Africa... but we are only told again and again about the Jews. Why? I whole-heartedly agree that what the Germans did under Hitler was a travesty, but just because Jews died doesn't make it anymore important.



You are obviously new around here.



and no... I'm not.. wish you would elaborate.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:37:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EternallyIndebted:

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By EternallyIndebted:
I agree that Germany has had a sordid past and that it shouldn't be forgotten. However, Stalin killed about 4 times as many people and there aren't huge outcries about not forgetting that. The Khmer Rouge killed 1.5 million individuals based on their ideals, which isn't any different from what Hitler did. Genocide is always going on in Africa... but we are only told again and again about the Jews. Why? I whole-heartedly agree that what the Germans did under Hitler was a travesty, but just because Jews died doesn't make it anymore important.



You are obviously new around here.



and no... I'm not.. wish you would elaborate.



two newbs fighting over who's newer?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:44:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 11:45:30 AM EDT by vito113]

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By sgtar15:


Sorry. I get a little emotional about the Cold War as I worked at Lockheed in Sunnyvale, CA. Right next to the Blue Cube and Moffet NAS, two targets with multiple inbounds planned. As part of my job at one point I had to become acquainted with the inner workings of nuclear blast effects on infrastructure and populations, projected damage to the US Ccubed and the survivability/reconstitution of our country. Not a pretty thing. Glad you understand.

CW



Bad days I'll agree… I bet we saw the same films… sobering stuff… after I saw those films I always said to myself I would want to be under ground zero…

… 'after a nuclear exchange, the living will envy the dead'.

Andy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:48:14 AM EDT
Even in the early 80's the younger generation of germans denied that WW2 happened or that even the concentration camps even existed. Hubby and I were there during the Cold War. The older germans that lived through WW2 were actually the nicest to us especially when we were in uniform. And YES they do need to remember what they have done through out history,or we will be there again. As far as the wall coming down,I don't think it was such a bad thing,especially since we lived a mile from it and you never knew when the gun shots went off at night as to whether they made it across, but at least in this point in time it will keep germany busy trying to bring the standards of the east up to the standards of the west,so maybe they won't have any time to repeat history yet. At least in the cold war we knew who are enemies were.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:20:35 PM EDT
Those who forget their past are doomed to repeat it.

Germany should not follow the path of Japan which already has forgotten or denied WWII. They forbid the publishing of any textbook that mentions the Nanking massacre. They present Pearl Harbor as a battle they were forced into, not a sneak attack. They view the USA, China and the UK as the agressors. It is really scary shit.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 10:37:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EternallyIndebted:

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:
I don't agree with this. The greater majority of the population of Germany wasn't even alive when any of this happened. To constantly throw their predecessors errors into their faces is ridiculous. They know what happened with their prior leaders, ancestors, you can't hold it against the people there now!! My mother's german and I would never sit there and remind her "Your father slaughtered jews." Why Hitler came into power needs to be researched more by these people before saying they knew what he was planning on doing. Germany was in a massive depression and couldn't get out of it. They saw Hitler as a last hope with the promises that he'd made to their country! And contrary to popular belief, not everyone fighting in the Nazi army wanted to be a Nazi soldier!!! My grandfather didn't want to but had two choices...fight or die. Germany's suffered in return. I wouldn't throw various US wars into the faces of the people of this nation and I refuse to do the same to any other specific country. Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the people who started the war! Osama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc. etc. not on the country they were from.




You act like the citizens of a nation aren't responsible for the actions that nation takes. Even if it would have been a harsh sacrifice to fight and die in opposition to Hitler, it would have been the right thing to do. Hitler didn't start the war by himself, either. He only had the power that the people vested in him, even though that power was subscribed to by force. There is ALWAYS a different course of action, the question is: are you willing to make the sacrifice for that course? Furthermore, the negligence of a country is the responsibility of the people... in the same way that the tyranny of a government over the people is the people's responsibility to overthrow it. They can't side-step responsibility just because it is a heavy burden to bear.



There was no fighting and dying in opposition of Hitler, it was fight or you will be killed by the nazi army. When you have a family and children to think about you do what you feel is right. My grandfather spent 1 1/2 years as a POW for his part in the war, which was hell for him. He was in the part of France that was annexed by Germany after Hitler gained power. Hitler built up the military forces after he came into power. Yes, he was elected. Since in your opinion that the negligence of a nation is the people's responsibility, I demand that you apologize to every African American person that you meet for putting them through slavery. I also demand you apologize to every person of Native American descent for taking their land! Does that not sound ridiculous to you? Germany now has a defensive army only. THEY CANNOT REPEAT THEIR MISTAKES! Their consitution was re-written by the United States after WWII. They know there are SEVERE consequences for even attempting to launch an offensive attack.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 10:43:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:
I don't agree with this. The greater majority of the population of Germany wasn't even alive when any of this happened. To constantly throw their predecessors errors into their faces is ridiculous. They know what happened with their prior leaders, ancestors, you can't hold it against the people there now!! My mother's german and I would never sit there and remind her "Your father slaughtered jews." Why Hitler came into power needs to be researched more by these people before saying they knew what he was planning on doing. Germany was in a massive depression and couldn't get out of it. They saw Hitler as a last hope with the promises that he'd made to their country! And contrary to popular belief, not everyone fighting in the Nazi army wanted to be a Nazi soldier!!! My grandfather didn't want to but had two choices...fight or die. Germany's suffered in return. I wouldn't throw various US wars into the faces of the people of this nation and I refuse to do the same to any other specific country. Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the people who started the war! Osama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc. etc. not on the country they were from.



Those who don't learn from the past are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past.

It's intellectually dishonest to pick and choose which parts of history are taught in school.

Why Hitler came into power, and what he did once he was in power, should be taught. So that it doesn't happen again.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 10:59:24 AM EDT
Agreed that you don't forget the tragedies of the past, but you don't rub people's noses in it either.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:13:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:

There was no fighting and dying in opposition of Hitler, it was fight or you will be killed by the nazi army.



Why, how did Hitler get into power? Could it be he had active support from a signifigant number of Germans, as well a tacit support from a great deal more? He startedas the leader of a political party, not a "nobility". Germans choose him to lead them.


When you have a family and children to think about you do what you feel is right.


Yeah far better to support the devil, than to stand up for what you know is right?


My grandfather spent 1 1/2 years as a POW for his part in the war, which was hell for him. He was in the part of France that was annexed by Germany after Hitler gained power. Hitler built up the military forces after he came into power. Yes, he was elected.


So it would have been better for your grandfather to be pouring Zyclon B onto other people, instead of being treated as a POW?


Since in your opinion that the negligence of a nation is the people's responsibility, I demand that you apologize to every African American person that you meet for putting them through slavery.


This is why people need to learn history, it keeps than from saying stupid things.

1) Slavery exsisted in Africa. It was far different than slavery in the US. Generally "slaves" had to work for 1-2 seasons, to work off their "dishonor". Slaves were generally the losers of a tribal conflict. It was nowhere near the lifelong slavery that the US used. It was more like indentured servitude.

2) Yes, Africans sold slaves to non-Africans. "Sold" slves represents a very small number of the slaves gathered. Most were captured, by white slave traders and sold. It's like saying that 1 guy in New York killed another guy, so all New Yorkers are killers.


I also demand you apologize to every person of Native American descent for taking their land! Does that not sound ridiculous to you?


Yeah, to the victors go the spoils.


Germany now has a defensive army only.


How is a "defensive" tank, artillery piece, APC, or rifle, different than an offensive one?


THEY CANNOT REPEAT THEIR MISTAKES!


1920 called, they want their headline back.


Their consitution was re-written by the United States after WWII. They know there are SEVERE consequences for even attempting to launch an offensive attack.


Yeah, that sounds just like what the League of Nations said about the Armistice. With Allied troops in the Rohr, Germany will never be allowed to re-militarize. With a 50,000 man army they don't have enought troops for offensive operations, except 10,000 are professional soldiers, and the other 40,000 are troops being trained. The 40,000 only spend 2 months in the military, so every year 240,000 troops are completing basic training.

We could get into warship size limits, the "pocket battleships" and other German ships still managed to meet those limits.

Teaching history shouldn't be political. Nor should history be used to disgrace the current generation.

Japanese feel the atomic bombs were a crime against humanity. Guess who they blame for that? It just so happens that the Japanese don't teach about the atrocities the Japanese forces committed in the rest of Asia. Those force led to the US economic embargo of Japan, which cut off need raw mateials for war supplies. They teach about that, claiming th US was out to economically destroy Japan. They skip over Pearl Harbor......................... So the US started with an economic war, that the US escalated into a shooting war, which led to the US using atomic weapons. At least that is what is taught to Japanese school children.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:23:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 11:24:22 AM EDT by HeldHostage]

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Why, how did Hitler get into power? Could it be he had active support from a signifigant number of Germans, as well a tacit support from a great deal more? He startedas the leader of a political party, not a "nobility". Germans choose him to lead them.



Yes, he was elected during an extreme depression in germany with all the wonderful promises to turn the country around........... no different than what happens here. The U.S. also elects officials generally based on a lot of promises for a better country.


Yeah far better to support the devil, than to stand up for what you know is right?



So it would have been better for your grandfather to be pouring Zyclon B onto other people, instead of being treated as a POW?


My grandfather did what he had to do. When he wasn't a POW he was fighting on a battlefield, NOT working in a concentration camp.


1) Slavery exsisted in Africa. It was far different than slavery in the US. Generally "slaves" had to work for 1-2 seasons, to work off their "dishonor". Slaves were generally the losers of a tribal conflict. It was nowhere near the lifelong slavery that the US used. It was more like indentured servitude.

2) Yes, Africans sold slaves to non-Africans. "Sold" slves represents a very small number of the slaves gathered. Most were captured, by white slave traders and sold. It's like saying that 1 guy in New York killed another guy, so all New Yorkers are killers.

Yeah, to the victors go the spoils.



We had slaves. They were not free to walk away whenever they wanted..........they were our SLAVES. They were traded, bought, sold, they were not considered people. This happened in the US ya know. When were the slaves officially freed? Hmmmmm. All things considered, it really wasn't that damn long ago!!


To the victors go the spoils???? So we're victorious over the indians....... You don't see very many native americans around anymore. So we kill them out, take their land and we're the victors. Nice way to look at things.




Teaching history shouldn't be political. Nor should history be used to disgrace the current generation.




And THAT is all I wanted to hear. I'm half german and if anyone tried to tell me how I was responsible for the deaths of the jewish....... well goddamn, I WASN'T THERE!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:33:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:

There was no fighting and dying in opposition of Hitler, it was fight or you will be killed by the nazi army. When you have a family and children to think about you do what you feel is right. My grandfather spent 1 1/2 years as a POW for his part in the war, which was hell for him. He was in the part of France that was annexed by Germany after Hitler gained power. Hitler built up the military forces after he came into power. Yes, he was elected. Since in your opinion that the negligence of a nation is the people's responsibility, I demand that you apologize to every African American person that you meet for putting them through slavery. I also demand you apologize to every person of Native American descent for taking their land! Does that not sound ridiculous to you? Germany now has a defensive army only. THEY CANNOT REPEAT THEIR MISTAKES! Their consitution was re-written by the United States after WWII. They know there are SEVERE consequences for even attempting to launch an offensive attack.



I do agree that there should be formal apologies to Native Americans, because we did take their land. And as for "African Americans", if that is what you call blacks living in America that are no more African than I am Irish-English-Germanic, African slavery was initiated by black Muslim and Christian slave traders native to Africa. We simply bought a product that the black Africans themselves were selling. I'm not arguing that slavery is right or just, but I think Rome is an example were limited slavery worked very well. But, God forbid we discuss WHITE SLAVES being taken by BLACK MUSLIMS and the travesties that they endured.. Oh God no, the NAACP would never let America educate its children about that. And about Germany have a "defenseive army" not capable of hurting America... the tiger strikes most fierce when it knows its end is imminent. Just because a people "know" they shouldn't or can't with the status quo do something, doesn't mean they wouldn't some day try and mobilize to put themselves in a position to do that very thing.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:46:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 11:49:33 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]

Originally Posted By HeldHostage:

Yes, he was elected during an extreme depression in germany with all the wonderful promises to turn the country around........... no different than what happens here. The U.S. also elects officials generally based on a lot of promises for a better country.

My grandfather did what he had to do. When he wasn't a POW he was fighting on a battlefield, NOT working in a concentration camp.

We had slaves. They were not free to walk away whenever they wanted..........they were our SLAVES. They were traded, bought, sold, they were not considered people. This happened in the US ya know. When were the slaves officially freed? Hmmmmm. All things considered, it really wasn't that damn long ago!!

To the victors go the spoils???? So we're victorious over the indians....... You don't see very many native americans around anymore. So we kill them out, take their land and we're the victors. Nice way to look at things.

Teaching history shouldn't be political. Nor should history be used to disgrace the current generation.

And THAT is all I wanted to hear. I'm half german and if anyone tried to tell me how I was responsible for the deaths of the jewish....... well goddamn, I WASN'T THERE!




Yes to the victor go the spoils. The "settlers" took land from the indians. Indians were killed, settlers were killed. That behavior was considered acceptable in those days. I don't think it's right to use todays standards to judge the behavior of past generations.


FYI, US schools teach about slavery, and taking the land from the indians. If we used the same idealogy as Japan and Germany, I guess we would say the US was empty before settlers arrive Europe, and skip the whole slavery issue all together.


Also everytime nations like Japan or Germany "revise" their history to make themselves look better, it makes other nations look worse. the US and Britian will look worse to students in those countries. Instead of liberating Europe from the fascists, we are attacking Europe, and destroying it.

The back half of WW-II doesn't make sense unless you know about the front half.

And without the Holocaust being taught, it makes it tough to understand why Israel was formed after WWo-II by the Allies. And why the Israeli's are so concerned about being wiped out, since Israel was founded with survivors of the Holocaust.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:49:39 AM EDT
Anyone could attack anyone else without notice or provocation. No one should forget tragedies of the past, you should learn from them and they should be taught as a part of history. But once again I reitterate: You should not rub people's noses in it. Terrible things have happened in every country on this planet. Let those without sin cast the first stone.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:53:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 1:21:50 PM EDT by thetruth]
When i was a senior in high school we had this hot little german exchange student, man did she like to fornicate. I always messed with her and asked her about her grandparents past, were they national socialists? She didnt want to talk about it at all, and she said they didnt even talk about it in school, it was like WW2 never happend. Did i mention that she liked to fornicate?


edited for all the sissys
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:54:13 AM EDT
and now IBTL. Thanks a lot!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 11:57:51 AM EDT
As long as they don't call anyone else "Nazis".

A few years ago, a Geman artist made a piece of art, criticizing Rudy Giuliani, comparing him to the Nazis.

Rudy was like, "No way Fritz! No way can YOU call anyone a Nazi. Ever."

I've heard German leftists try to say that the Israelis are like Nazis.
That's even funnier.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:06:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 12:10:40 PM EDT by GUNGUY1911]
edit!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:26:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:28:50 PM EDT
The best abuse for Germany is they will ALWAYS have France for a next door neighbor.

Shitty neighborhood, IMHO.
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