...DonR locked that thread before I had finished answering your thread. I didn't lock, unlock, or relock anything, Boyo!

If you will note, my last post ended with:

"- continued -"

BTW, I sent you the rest of my thread by e-mail.

Post from Confederate -

Wasn't my idea to lock the thread, I was going to complete my answer to SteyrAUG's last post when the thread got locked.

If SteyrAUG thinks I can unlock a thread that someone else has locked, well, then he needs to show me how, 'cause I don't know.

Now, was I being unfair, [b]Confederate[/b]?

Eric The(HopefullyNot)Hun[>]:)]

My bad, guess DonR should have left the situation in your hands, I mean your are perfectly capable of locking a thread yourself if you think it is getting out of hand.

Actually Eric, I checked the thread, IT WAS LOCKED. And your reply was NOT there.

Say what you like. I'm no longer gonna bother. Now I know why NOBODY else does either.

I guess that's my problem, I could have gone all night with SteyrAUG on that thread - I din't think it was getting out of hand.

I thought we were doing quite nicely.

There were a few F*** you's (him) and Screw you's (me) thrown into the mix, but WTF it was the kind of discussion that should be had.

If you don't like Israel, fine.

Just go pick up your Palestinian flag, your Yasser poster, and go march with the others with whom you seem to have so much in common.

They march against Israel, they march against the US, they march for the UN, they march in favor of so many things, that if the RKBA ever did come to the Middle East, they would march against that as well.

I have absolutely nothing in common with such riff-raff. In any area. Any subject. Any time.

Eric The(PickingMyFriendsCarefully)Hun[>]:)]

Can't moderators reply to locked threads?  Without knowing what the hell happened, it would seem that DonR locked the thread, Steyr checked it, and then Eric hit "submit" on a reply all within a few moments of each other.

Chill, people.

Thank you santyth.  

Post from SteyrAUG -

Well you can 'check' any thread you like, but when I replied with the first part of my last answer, the reply was posted. When I attempted to post the second part, the post wouldn't go through and that's when I noticed that the thread was locked!

And if you don't believe that, that's just fine by me, 'cause whether you believe me or not is so unimportant in the grand scheme of things as to be wholly and totally irrelevant.

Besides, you haven't believed a thing I've said all day and evening. Why stop now?

Shouldn't you be demonstrating at an American embassy somewhere?

Maybe the Israeli Consulate in Miami?

Eric The(StillSassyAfterAFullDay)Hun[>]:)]

Augie sux, I support Eric the Huh!!!
[>]:)]

Post from santyth -

Apparently not, or at least I couldn't.

It is a strange thing, but it sometimes happens that even on DSL, I will lose my connection to AR15.com and have to log back on the site.

It will sometimes happen at the end of my composing a post and I suddenly notice that I'm no longer 'connected.'

The server will still allow me to post the reply I was working on, before it disconnects me. I will have to log back on to post a follow up to my post.

But for SteyrAUG to say it happened because of my connivance beggars the imagination.

These posts aren't that friggin important that I would feel compelled to lie about something so trivial and mundane!

Eric The(AreThey?)Hun[>]:)]

BTW, thanks santyth and Rowgan for your support! I appreciate it greatly, but you [u]knew[/u] that![:D]

Eric, you need to understand that it is entirely possible for someone to disagree w/ Israel's policies & actions, yet not wave the "Yasser flag,"  or be pro-Palestinian.  I will concede that while most of your posts are well reasoned, you have gotten quite zealous lately & are unable to respectfully accept opinions in opposition to yours w/out branding people "Yasser flag wavers" or terrorist supporters.  What's happening over there is sheer madness on both sides & it needs to stop.  Our President needs to tell both sides to simmer down, not just the Palestinians - as this entire thing is detrimental to our interests in the area, not to mention horrible to behold as a human being.  Yes, Israel is sometimes right.  Sometimes they are wrong.  Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers.  Americans who question this govt's BLIND (yes, blind) support of a questionable ally (Israel) are not terrorist supporters.  Both you & Steyr need to simmer down yourselves.  If you want to couch the debate in Zionist BS, religious vitriol, anti-semitic crap, or revolutionary propaganda I'm done w/ this bullsh*t conversation on this board.  I'll stick to gun talk & other BS.  This conflict is hell, for all involved, OK?  I am increasingly disturbed by the poorly thought out responses to such threads on this board, by people I thought were better educated than what their responses reveal.  While I have never been in a war, I have read my history well & know enough about it not to ever wish for it, or destruction of any kind, on any people.  Sometimes it happens, but that doesn't mean we should all blindingly accept it.  In closing I will state that Yasser is a gigantic turd, but Sharon equals him in fecal girth.  For every wrong Arafat has committed, Sharon has committed one equal.  They are political pigs, taking advantage of the poor, powerless, & uneducated. For us to support EITHER one of them is sick, wrong, & inherently un-American.  

Good night now.

Last time I tried to post in a thread that got locked while I was typing my responce it dint go through. Eric, might you teach me this magic?

Post from jobux -

Yes Sir, you are correct in the abstract, but in the very real world that we live in, you are as wrong as sh|t.

There is one group in the Middle East that has pretty much done everything that the United States has required of them in order to make the US [u]comfortable[/u].

When the Sinai was required to be given back, it was given back, when Scud missiles fell down upon their country, they gritted their teeth and took the 34 missiles that were lobbed against them and, at our request, did not retaliate, when Lebanon was required to be evacuated, it was evacuated, when the dubious wisdom of the Oslo Peace process required that the Palestinians be given a great degree of freedom and autonomy, including the arming of a Palestinian Security force, it was done, when it came time for them to be called upon to make a final peace effort by offering to give their age-old enemies 97% of what was asked of them, they made the offer, but were rebuked.

Now that the United States has suffered from the same type of terrorist attack that has plagued them since their earliest days of being a nation, the rules have changed.

There is no need for the US to try and bargain in good faith with those that attacked it. There is suddenly no need need to meet with enemies and try and hammer out a resolution. There is no call for the US to withdraw from some strategic post or position that might assuage the wrath of its enemies and keep the region stable.

Why? Because it's the US that is calling the tune for others to dance to, while we refuse to do any sort of dance whatsoever.

If we don't like the tune, we kill the band.

Now Israel is the country about which I have been speaking. As you might have guessed.

When it has decided to take its own War on Terror to the same heights as we have taken against Al Quaeda and the Taliban, suddenly it had crossed a line.

A line that has never existed for any other country on the face of the planet. No other country would be required to take the attacks by a neighbor and not be permitted to attack back.

The only precedent for such stupidity would have had to be the US's political decisions it made during the Vietnam War to permit attacks from Cambodia and Laos upon its troops without being permitted to go into the enemies sanctuaries.

The one time that the US did decide to go into the enemies sanctuaries in Cambodia, well, let's just say that the US paid a very high price for its efforts, such as world wide demonstrations (like we see now against Israel), campus demonstrations in the US (such as we see at Berkeley, now), one of which occurred at Kent State with the sad and lamentable result of 4 students being shot by National Guardsmen, liberal press editorials lambasting our decision (such as we now see against Israel), and our so-called European allies being the most vicious in their loud criticism and condemnations of US actions (such as we see against Israel now).

- continued -

Hopefully, Israel will turn off its collective television sets, stop up its ears against the protests and do what must be done.

Just as we should have done, lo, those many years ago in Southeast Asia.

The good news is that the Bush Administration has decided that it will 'permit' Israel to do what it thinks must be done.

Finally, the US has an administration that has learned the lessons of history. Hopefully.

And to those who bitch against Israel at this time in its history, you can go to HELL![:D]

Do you remember the Palestinians dancing in the streets? Not in September, 2001, but in 1991 when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait?

Do you remember that? Well, the Kuwaitis did and sent more than 300,000 Palestinians packing when the United States recovered their country for them.

Do you remember the Palestinians dancing in the streets when Scud missiles fell in civilian areas of Israel during Saddam's last ditch efforts to blow apart the Coalition against him?

Do you remember that?

Finally, do you remember the Palestinians that were dancing in the streets on Sept 11?

Those Palestinians are a group of 'wild and crazy guys' all right, who seem to be greatly disposed to 'dance in the streets' when they are moved to do so.

Well, I don't see a whole lot of dancing in the streets today on the West Bank or in Gaza!

I guess the Palestinians have lost their will to dance for the moment.

Even the last 7 suicide bombings in the last 7 days haven't managed to get the people in the mood to dance anymore.

Now [u]that's[/u] a real shame!

Eric The(Historical)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Scarecrow -

Sure, if you can teach me why you think Canada is Number #1!

Whoops, do I detect an absence of a sig line?

What happened?

Did you see how often Canada voted with the US in the United Nations and get embarrassed?

Eric The(WellYouShouldBe)Hun[>]:)]

You are for the USA or against us at this point.  We are at war of a different sort.  Sorry but no one is 100% right in their causes for war.  Israel will actually acheive peace this time.  My God! They have been more patient than we have EVER been in regard to having our civilians blown up on a daily basis.  The Palestinians have shown their desire for conflict at every opportunity and I for one am glad to see them getting what they asked for.  Planerench out.

The oft-repeated Arab claim that the Israeli
'occupation' is somehow to blame for the Palestinian terrorism is
nothing more than an empty retort, repudiated by the facts, and
disproved by a century of historical reality.


1952, when 'fedayeen' terrorist border incursions reached their
height, there were about 3,000 incidents of cross-border violence,
extending from the malicious destruction of property to the brutal
murder of civilians. In the years 1951-1955, 503 Israelis were killed
by Arab terrorists infiltrating from Jordan, 358 were killed in
attacks from Egypt, and 61 were killed in attacks originating from
Syria and Lebanon. This anti-Israeli violence encompassed both
frontier settlements and population centers, and was perpetrated, for
the most part, against innocent civilians.

Jan 1, 1952-Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen
year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in
Jerusalem.

Apr 14, 1953-Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel
by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and
the other boat escaped.

June 7, 1953-A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in
shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.

June 9, 1953-Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and
killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and
sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group
of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a
day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation,
in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into
Israel from Jordanian territory.

June 10, 1953-Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house
in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.

June 11, 1953-Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in
Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.

Sept 2, 1953-Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the
neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand
grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

Mar 17, 1954-Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel
Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of
Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the
terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The
terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one.
Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the
murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could
clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the
site of the terrorist attack.

Jan 2, 1955-Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.

Mar 24, 1955-Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a
crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev.
A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the
attack.

Apr 7, 1956-A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when
terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house. Two members of
Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their
car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev. There were
further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas
such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others
wounded.

Apr 11, 1956-Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children
and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children
and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded,
including three seriously.

Apr 29, 1956-Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.

Sept 12, 1956-Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in
the Arava region.

Sept 23, 1956-Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and
killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz
Ramat Rachel.

Sept 24, 1956-Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming
community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.

Oct 4, 1956-Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.

Oct 9, 1956-Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth
village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.

Nov 8, 1956-Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew
up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were
wounded.

Feb 18, 1957-Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next
to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.

Mar 8, 1957-A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by
terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.

Apr 16, 1957-Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two
guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.

May 20, 1957-A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region,
killing a worker.

May 29, 1957-A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when
the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.

June 23, 1957-Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.

Aug 23, 1957-Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were
killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.

Dec 21, 1957-A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.

Feb 11, 1958-Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on
his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.

Apr 5, 1958-Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people
near Tel Lachish.

Apr 22, 1958-Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.

May 26, 1958-Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian
attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.

Nov 17, 1958-Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air
attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian
Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.

Dec 3, 1958-A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery
attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.

Jan 23, 1959-A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.

Feb 1, 1959-Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near
Moshav Zavdiel.

Apr 15, 1959-A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.

Apr 27, 1959-Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.

Sept 6, 1959-Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance
officer near Nitzana.

Sept 8, 1959-Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev,
killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.

Oct 3, 1959-A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.

Apr 26, 1960-Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.

Apr 12, 1962-Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat;
one passenger was wounded.

Sept 30, 1962-Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to
Eilat. No one was wounded.

Jan 1, 1965-Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National
Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's
Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965-Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of
Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

June 1, 1965-Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

July 5, 1965-A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near
Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965-A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sept 29, 1965-A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965-A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house
in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was
destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966-Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians
and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean
Valley.

May 16, 1966-Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist
landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks
led into Syria.

July 13, 1966-Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor,
when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

July 14, 1966-Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

July 19, 1966-Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the
northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966-A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the
railroad tracks to Jerusalem.


reprinted with permission from Ncoom

[b]satcong[/b], you hit the ball outta the park with your history lesson, again!

But surely, Sir, you are mistaken!

The Palestinians were not such a violent people until [u]after[/u] the 1967 Six Day War and the loss of the West Bank and Gaza!

Before that, they were simple farmers and goat herders, nothing more, I can assure you.

Eric The(YepSimpleFarmersAndGoatHerdersWithGrenadesAndMausers)Hun[>]:)]

Canada is #1 because the following:

1) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.
2) When people buy a gun here, they have to know how to use it.
3) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.
4) Our beer is stronger.
5) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.
6) We din't have to have civil war to figure out what to do with slaves, since we never had any.
7) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.
8) Our educational system was rated higher then yours.
9) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.
10) Our laws are the same no matter what province your in.
11) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.
12) In a country with a population equal that to NY, we still somehow give birth to all the best hockey players.
13) We din't give 133 billion to Israel.

And God forbid Canada vote against the US and have a mind of its own.

And the reason for my remouval of that signature; the truth hurts like a loss of 133 billion tax dollars to fund Israel.

I say we keep the principal simple. Keep out of thier petty squabbles let them fight it out.
It's tribal, it's been that way since the beginning of mankind. One tribe against another. Just let the spoils goto the victor and be done with it.

Well, Sir, you simply have no say in what we give our friends! It ain't coming out of your pocket.

Are you quite satisfied with Canadian gun laws now?

Are you equally satisifed with Canadian immigration laws?

Are you as happy as a loon on a lake with Canadian health care?

There was a time when I thought the US should offer statehood to the Western Provinces at the very least.

But who needs ten more liberal, limp-wristed, anti-gun Senators?

Not US!

Eric The(WeHaveOurOwn,ThankYou)Hun[>]:)]

I do however have the right to support SteyrAug and I am sorry I gave you away with the fact that you cant post in a thread wether its close before you decide to post, or while you try to post. Now your on the offensive trying to attack both my country and my views like I would expect from someone on the loosing side of the stick.

Are you glad your country's immigration laws let in terrorist that flew planes into your buildings?

Are you happy with your free health care after the decades its been in use? Oh whait, you don't have free health care system to talk about do you? Ours might have weaknesses, but atleast we have one.

And how are those laws getting in California? Your future awaits your whole country right there.

133 Billion?
Please!!
That might impress you Canadians, but here in the USA, it's chump change.

Hell, our Canadian NBA and Pro Baseball teams get paid more than that.

Wow Eric, this must be the most unintelligable comment I've ever seen you make.  So you believe that if someone doesn't like Israel, they love the Palestinians or other Arabs?  Holy shit, my mind is reeling over such a flawed sense of reasoning.  

Its almost like you saying that in post WWII Europe that if I didn't like France, that that makes me a Russia lover!?!  Anyone buy that load of crap?

Now I don't like either side, but when it comes to chosing who I'm behind, its obvious that Israel is the lessor of the evils and more in line with our agenda, but when (if) the guns are put down and both sides have finished duking it out, I wouldn't give a shit about the Israelis and I'd hope that our aid and other military donations to them stop.  

You should really take a look at people's positions before telling them:
[bold]you are as wrong as sh|t[/bold]
Seriously Hun, you're off your f*cking rocker if you believe that people are pro Palestine because they vent discontent at Israel!

Maybe you think its a good thing for the government to flush money down the toilet like that, but I'm not sure all your fellow americans rather have there money wasted then used to help there children even if that ammount seems small to you.

Post from Minman72 -

Whew! Thanks, I feel a lot better now about some other posts I've made. If this is my most unintelligible comment, I count it a blessing.

Well, I suppose you could just withdraw from supporting either side, Casper Milquetoast.

In these debates, it appears that everyone has pretty much chosen sides. I vehemently disagree with those who have chosen to be anti-Israeli. That's all.

If you disagree with me, just disagree. Simple?

Well, unreel your mind, son, and tell my why you are not marching in lockstep with the forces of evil in the world today.

If you are not on Israel's side in this fight, you are on someone's side by default.

Your nation is on Israel's side. Your President appears to be on Israel's side. The folks who support the RKBA appear to be on Israel's side. The conservative newspapers and magazines are on Israel's side. The American Public is on Israel's side (Have you seen the polls, BTW?).

But I understand, [u]you[/u] march to a different drummer. That's ok.

Well, since I've demonstrated that you have every right to your own view, please allow me to have mine.

There is a reason for the Palestinians and the Arabs to hate Israel. There is a reason for the terrorists who struck the United States on Sept 11th to hate Israel. There is a reason for the various Communist/Marxist parties of this world to support the Palestinians and to hate Israel. There is a reason for Muslim fundamantalists to hate Israel, so I am told (but I don't believe it).

I suppose you must have your own reason to feel the way you do about Israel, too. I just can't imagine what that might be, but you are free to feel anyway you want in this country.

[img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020403/i/1017863219.2483044389.jpg[/img]

Wonder what these young folk's reasons are?

Eric The(TheyHateIsrael,Too!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Scarecrow -

Oh, yes, 'for the children' we should stop!

How very Clintonian, or is it Hillarian, of you!

But, it's really none of your business. We won't complain about your laughable immigration laws, you don't tell us where we can spend money!

OK?

And you really should look at the latest polls on American support of Israel before you post such nonsense again.

Eric The(American)Hun[>]:)]

BTW, Thanks [b]Hawkeye1[/b], I can't seem to use my IM, so I thought I'd post my response here!

Hope you see this post!

Eric The(Battling)Hun[>]:)]

Again Eric, responding to what you want, and forgetting the rest. I should adopt this technique. Soon I will become amazing like you and I can always have the last word!

[b]Scarecrow[/b], I pick and choose between what I want to answer, what I think has already been answered, and what I don't believe warrants an answer.

It's called 'discernment.' Learn it, live it, love it!

Eric The(Discerning)Hun[>]:)]

Reflecting upon words and avoiding the subject, great technique. Wrong, but great.

Eric,
Is every Palestinian a Israel hater?
Is it possible that [b]innocent[/b] people on [b]both sides[/b] are suffering because of this.
Is it possible to feel for those people on the Palestinian side who are innocent or does that make me a "Yasser waver"?

And earlier in this thread someone asked what if mexico did what the palestinians did, what would the US reaction be...
Well riddle me this ETH, If Muslims were in Israel's shoes and had a democratic society and all of the great attributes that you list in Israel's favor, and had JEWS attacking them who would you support? And would it be ok to be giving them 133B or 80B what ever the number is?
-CK

These types of threads demonstrate why there will never be peace in that region. Even in our own country....we fight against each other over their bullshit philosophies. They are both wrong, and they are both fighting and killing innocent people in the name of pride, fake mother fuckers. I hope they find a way to vaporize each other....!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post from cck (sorry about the delay) -

Nope. There have been twelve 'collaborators' who have been murdered and whose bodies have been dragged through the streets in several Palestinian villages and left hanging on display.

So I assume that the number is getting smaller.

Not only possible, but quite likely!

Not at all, if you 'feel' for the folks who are truly innocent, such as the women and children, go right ahead. You're not doing anything wrong, as far as I can tell.

Yes, and....?

Well, though the situation is unimaginable, I would say that democratic nations should be supported at any costs from terror from an outside non-democratic nation or group. It would make no difference to me what the religion of the democratic nation might be, or the religion of the attacking nation or group.

If that's what the trusted experts told our leaders the number need to be, I would support it!

Sorta like the costs of the Vietnam War. Were we fighting to save a Buddhist nation or a Catholic nation?

We, or I should say, JFK, gave the 'green light' to the murderers of the Diem Brothers simply because the Generals thought they were too Catholic to run the country.

Talk about irony, the First Catholic President washing his soon-to-be-assassinated-himself's
hands in the blood of a fellow co-religionist!

Eric The(ThatIsUnbelievable!)Hun[>]:)]

As much as I have always been pro-Israeli I have to agree with dave223's post.

Think I'll stick with the US flag, thanks. The enemy of my enemy is NOT my freind. In this case meaning Israel. Eric, during the Iran/Iraq War who did you support? See my point?

Obviously, between the two, Palestine is the greater enemy of the US, I never said otherwise. But that doesn't make Israel good or imply they are not giving us a good screwing.

See Eric, this is why I like these debates. You show people exactly what your agenda is. "If you don't LOVE Israel, YOU ARE ANTI AMERICAN!" Guess you didn't call me a anti-semetic nazi, but YOU did imply I don't support my country. It is because I care about my country that I resent Israel taking advantage of it.

Keep doing the hard part for me, thanks.

Post from SteyrAUG -

Both and neither.

Much like the Battle of Berlin. Communists killing Nazis, Nazis killing Communists, I'll pull up a chair.

Eric The(Dispassionate)Hun[>]:)]

Ahhh but we were sending US AID to Iraq and building their army... Sound familiar? What if we had given them 3 billion every year for a decade? Oh wait, I forgot, God didn't declare them "Chosen people." Never mind.

Post from SteyrAUG -

As do you, my friend, as do you.

If you don't love America's allies, you should at least be able to give a cogent reason why!

We spend more money on researching the mating habits of wombats and other such critters than we do on supporting Israel. And yet Israel is our boy on the front line, and your whipping boy!

It is the one doing the heavy lifting in the Middle East.

Israel's posture in the Gulf War reflected a deliberate political decision in response to [u]American[/u[] requests. Yet you taunt them for not doing more!

Nevertheless, Israel did in fact aid the United States' successful campaign to turn back Iraqi aggression in Kuwait.

Such as:

- The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

- By warning that it would take military measures if any Iraqi troops enter Jordan, Israel, in effect, guaranteed Jordan's territorial integrity against Iraqi aggression. Jordan's continued existence as a buffer state between Iraq and Israel was and continues to be indispensable for the maintenance of regional stability.

- The United States benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy, meanwhile, used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

- Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for allied forces through Iraqi mine fields.

- Mobile bridges provided by Israel were employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

- Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhance the range of F-15 aircraft. These were used quite a bit in the Gulf War.

- Israeli recommendations, based upon system performance observations led to several software changes that make the Patriot a more capable missile defense system.

- General Dynamics implemented a variety of Israeli modifications to improve the worldwide F-16 aircraft fleet including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionics modifications.

- An Israeli-produced helicopter night-targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

- Israel also produced the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

- Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

- A low altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

- Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sand bags.

- Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. [b]U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.[/b]

- continued -

- Even in its low-profile mode, Israeli cooperation was extremely valuable: Israel's military intelligence has focused on Iraq much more carefully over the years than has the U.S. intelligence community. [b]Thus, the Israelis were able to provide Washington with detailed tactical intelligence on Iraqi military activities. [b]Defense Secretary Cheney[/b] said, for example, that the U.S. utilized Israeli information about western Iraq in its search for Scud missile launchers.

During a visit to Israel May 30, 1991, Defense Secretary Cheney said: [b]"We think that the cooperation that we were able to engage in during the war in the Gulf...emphasizes how important the [U.S.-Israel] relationship is and how well it works when put to the test."[/b]

Now, I simply choose to believe now-Vice-Pres. Cheney when it comes to Israel's contributions to the Gulf War.

You must remember these '17 items, SteyrAUG, caused I have posted them so often that I've kept the post on Word.

Yet not once, that I recall, have you ever directly commented on them.

You have stated on occasion that we could get whatever Israel gave us for a whole lot lesser cost, but you've never said [u]how[/u]!

Let's hear your response, not to me, but to then-Sec. of Defense Dick Cheney!

I've never called you an anti-Semitic nazi and that's just a red herring that you love to drag out for some esoteric purpose.

And as far as you not supporting your country, I would never say that, what I would say is that you don't support one of your country's most loyal supporters, Israel!

Well, smarter men and women than you and I have decided that it's a good deal for the US.

I accept that, you don't. Simple as that.

You're welcome, I will. Especially since the dog must have eaten your homework on finding out how much foreign aid the United Kingdom and France have received from us over the years.  I suppose I'll have to do that research myself, as well.

I had a lab partner like you once in Chemistry class in High School. Drats, heeee's back!

Eric The(HardWorking)Hun[>]:)]

As quoted by Chris Tucker

Didn't I say that I'm behind Israel in this conflict?  Did I not say that I've chosen my side (regardless of what everyone else thinks, including the president, this country or you) and that my side is Israel?  

I think the problem here is that you think people have to love Israel to side with them.  I have no love for them, nor will I.  



Ok, I'll start with the fact that my brother is in West Point and we are a very patriotic family.

I'll conclude with the fact that I was at WTC on 9/11 and saw first hand (means not on TV) 1) plane hit a skyscraper 2) Bodies falling out of skyscraper 3) Skyscrapers fall to the ground 4) Body parts and torched beheaded disemboweled corpses.

I know first hand what the extremist arabs can do.  I do not have any love for arabs and muslims.  If people think I'm evil for that, so be it, but we've seen evil and it has an arab face.

Eric, you seem to have your mind wrapped around the concept that someone who dislikes, or even HATES Israel is anti-American.  Well, to be honest with you, the last time I checked, Israel was not attached to the US, nor is it a state.  

I know you love Israel, but who cares?  As long as we all realize that Israel is the best country to win this conflict, then why be so interested in how much a person loves the friggin country and go to such lengths as telling patriotic Americans that they are aligned with the enemy for not liking Israel??!?

Eric, on a very sincere final note, I think you should read very carefully what people are saying about the middle east conflict.  You have jumped on too many people who are sided with the Israeli's but have voiced discontent at their relationship with the US.  

I'd also like to know what you think about Steyr's comments about the Iraq v. Iran war and the very interesting correllation between that and the current conflict.

Are you unpatriotic for not chosing Iraq? [rolleyes]

I gave several reasons why.



I cannot even believe you wrote that. We DO NOT spend 3 BILLION annually researching wombats.



Israel is on THIER front line. Ours is currently in Afghanistan and Israel is noticably NOT there.

Eric, just ONE QUESTION...

What is the worst thing Israel has ever done to the US that you believe actually happned? Anything?

And don't use the USS LIberty because you believe that was only a accident.

Post from SteyrAUG -

They and we face a [u]common[/u] enemy, or do you not listen to the news?

You really should try and understand that the very folks that wish Israel to die would love for us to go with them as well!

I was joshing about the wombats and other critters in my earlier post, but I'll bet you a swift virtual kick in the ass that I'm not far off the mark.

Wanna bet?[:D]

Whoops, I just saw your last post!

Without a doubt, Jonathan Pollard. While I am not certain how far up the chain his spying efforts were know by Israeli officials, I am compelled to blame the whole government for not keeping a better watch on their operatives.

They spy on us as much and as thoroughly as we spy on them.

But the Jonathan Pollard case was such a very bad penetration of our security, that no one familiar with the case has ever urged clemency!

That says a lot!

And I don't mean to be willfully blind, but I can't think of any other instance of Israeli treachery that approaches Pollard.

Eric The(EverTruthful)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, I will try and explain this as sincerely as I can.

I have NO anti-Israel agenda. I know you won't believe that.

My sole objection to Israel is they exist at OUR expense for THEIR benefit.

I could really care about the Palestinians who danced in the streets on 9-11. Despite your efforts to portray me as a lover of Arafat.

I DON'T believe Israel does ANYTHING for US, let alone anything that justifies 3 BILLION a year. And your "rest assured they do something, even if WE don't know about it" is the same kind of bullshit I get from MY government. I object to that as well.

England gets less in aid, we have established that as fact, even though I still haven't found the exact figure on how much they get (and neither have you.), but does far more in terms of actions that directly benefit the US. And I mean military actions, not their voting record in the UN. Nobody dies casting a vote in the General Assembly.