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Posted: 10/11/2010 5:22:42 PM EDT
Over the past few months, I've been cleaning up some serious crap from other "gunsmiths".   Sure, we're all human and we make mistakes.  But sometimes, it's much more than a mistake.  I've dealt with some pretty messed up stuff like cleaning up a barrel that had a muzzle brake removed ala hack saw...  or fixing an AK handguard that was held on by a hose clamp (no, I'm not kidding).  Some were done by the enterprising customer who wanted to save some cash and do it himself.  Others were by guys that just because they have an FFL think they are the next best thing to JMB.  Most of the stuff is pretty easy to deal with though it can be costly to the customer for replacement parts.  Most days, I just laugh at what is brought to me.  Today though, takes the cake.  

I had a customer bring in a rifle that he had another smith work on.  He wanted a rear pillar installed and the action bedded by the other smith.  This is what he got...

See any bedding in the action area?  Note the brown area behind the cut for the recoil lug.  This appears to be a "fix" for a crack in the stock the other smith put in there.  Also, note that he bedded the barrel channel and then sanded it.



It's kinda hard to see in this pic but the pillar he installed sits about 1/4 of an inch below the inlet for the receiver.  Also note the finish on the stock.  This is not the original finish but was a 'repair' done to the stock by the other smith when he was attempting to inlet the stock for a new trigger.  The laquer finish is a spray on type that the other smith used after sanding the stock to remove the damage he did while working on it.  



Another picture of the barrel channel.  There are some voids in the bedding and the barrel was not free floated at all as the customer had requested.  



Here you can see the pillar.  Yep, it's over 1/4 inch above the inlet for the bottom metal.  Basically, it's not doing anything at all.  


After discussing the matter with my customer, we're just going to replace the stock.  I'll post pics when it's done as a comparison.  But please, folks, if you're a gunsmith and you can't do a job, just say it.  Now, there is a customer that won't go back to that store for any reason, won't refer anyone to them but openly tells his tale of woe.  Bedding a barrel channel is NOT bedding the action.  

The new stock was ordered this afternoon.  Sigh.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:27:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Do you like the Dremel tool?
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:29:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Yup. Years ago I worked for a gun shop, and we would get guns brought in to be un-fucked from a local "smith" (aka, Cliff the Butcher)....

I mean, simple stuff.... drilling and tapping for scope bases, recoil pad installations, choke tubes, my store had to fix alot of his mistakes.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:30:11 PM EDT
[#3]
The WECSOG people should be along any moment...
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:31:23 PM EDT
[#4]
What did that stock fit?

Thsi thread is relevant to my interests as I have a walnut stock for a weatherby vanguard that I'd like to pillar bed, or maybe hollow out radically and epoxy a steel bedding block in place and 'glass the whole forend so I can have the look of wood but absolute stability. I've done some fairly extensive bedding jobs before, but I have lost interest in tedious stuff as I've gotten older.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:35:58 PM EDT
[#5]
As a gunsmith, I have to ask why the barrel channel was bedded in the first place if the customer wanted the barrel to free float?
Unless the bedding is put there to seal the barrel channel and nothing else in which case the sanding is acceptable, the viods are not.

We all know pillars mate the magazine housing to the receiver, why do them if they, well, don't.

The finish on the stock is just plain ghastly.

Does the magazine housing front post meet the receiver or is it just there as a recoil bed?

Jesus that stock is ugly!
I agree, start over from scratch.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:38:55 PM EDT
[#6]
I know I shouldn't be a gunsmith, but I can't help myself.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:43:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Do you like the Dremel tool?

The dremel is a wonderful tool.  Its misuse by other folks will most likely put my daughter through college.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:45:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Damn. I'm not a gunsmith, but holy shit, even I can do better than that. A LOT better.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:49:06 PM EDT
[#9]
The requirements to be able to call yourself a gunsmith aren't exactly high. You see them say some pretty idiotic things even on here.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:50:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
What did that stock fit?

Thsi thread is relevant to my interests as I have a walnut stock for a weatherby vanguard that I'd like to pillar bed, or maybe hollow out radically and epoxy a steel bedding block in place and 'glass the whole forend so I can have the look of wood but absolute stability. I've done some fairly extensive bedding jobs before, but I have lost interest in tedious stuff as I've gotten older.


The stock belongs to a Parker Hale 1200.  Basically a large ring Mauser.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 5:57:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Okay, I'll ask:  what is 'bedding the stock?'   I have no idea what that is.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 6:02:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Okay, I'll ask:  what is 'bedding the stock?'   I have no idea what that is.


Bedding the stock is basically applying a material that is put between the action and the stock to provide a solid platform in which the action is "bedded" in.  Usually, its either a fiberglass or "steel" type bedding.  Some people use a bedding block to provide a more secure fit between the action and the stock.  Bedding basically makes the contact uniform and even giving the rifle a better fit to the stock and allowing the vibration of the gun during firing to move easier through the entire rifle enhancing accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 6:25:13 PM EDT
[#13]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1100046&page=1



Oh yeah and fuck Para Bellum Inc. Fuck them with a rusty pitchfork. Assholes.



OP and Bubbles know exactly who I'm talking about, those fucks.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 6:36:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What did that stock fit?

Thsi thread is relevant to my interests as I have a walnut stock for a weatherby vanguard that I'd like to pillar bed, or maybe hollow out radically and epoxy a steel bedding block in place and 'glass the whole forend so I can have the look of wood but absolute stability. I've done some fairly extensive bedding jobs before, but I have lost interest in tedious stuff as I've gotten older.


The stock belongs to a Parker Hale 1200.  Basically a large ring Mauser.


If it's in 30-06 and the owner wants to sell it, IM me.

I looked at your pictures, saw the forend, rollover cheekpiece, and what looked like Mauser inletting and thought 'nah, it can't be'.

My grandpa has wanted a PH 1200 since the 1970's.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 6:41:43 PM EDT
[#15]
A man has to know his limitations.
Some don't.
I guess you can consider it job security.
Link Posted: 10/11/2010 6:46:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What did that stock fit?

Thsi thread is relevant to my interests as I have a walnut stock for a weatherby vanguard that I'd like to pillar bed, or maybe hollow out radically and epoxy a steel bedding block in place and 'glass the whole forend so I can have the look of wood but absolute stability. I've done some fairly extensive bedding jobs before, but I have lost interest in tedious stuff as I've gotten older.


The stock belongs to a Parker Hale 1200.  Basically a large ring Mauser.


If it's in 30-06 and the owner wants to sell it, IM me.

I looked at your pictures, saw the forend, rollover cheekpiece, and what looked like Mauser inletting and thought 'nah, it can't be'.

My grandpa has wanted a PH 1200 since the 1970's.


Sorry, I don't think he wants to sell.  I'll ask though.
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 9:52:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Oh yeah and fuck Para Bellum Inc. Fuck them with a rusty pitchfork. Assholes.

Still bitter, are we?  
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 9:57:17 AM EDT
[#18]
An AK handguard held on by a hose clamp just sounds right to me.
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:08:19 AM EDT
[#19]
OP, can you quote me some Dremel barrel fluting on a 16" carbine (m4 profile) I might want some dremel milling on the upper and lower as well, so shoot me a quote for that if you wouldn't mind, nothing crazy, just some flowers and pretty birds, stuff you'd find on fudd guns!






JK'ing of course!
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:13:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
The requirements to be able to call yourself a gunsmith aren't exactly high. You see them say some pretty idiotic things even on here.


this! OMG this..

We have Val the butcher in my part of the woods..
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:17:44 AM EDT
[#21]



Quoted:


OP, can you quote me some Dremel barrel fluting on a 16" carbine (m4 profile) I might want some dremel milling on the upper and lower as well, so shoot me a quote for that if you wouldn't mind, nothing crazy, just some flowers and pretty birds, stuff you'd find on fudd guns!
JK'ing of course!


Someday I will not lose that pic before it makes it to my photobucket account.



 
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:18:55 AM EDT
[#22]
it sure is fun to try anyway
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:22:19 AM EDT
[#23]
I've done a few bedding jobs, and have been known to leave a void or two in non-critical areas (especially when sealing the barrel channel), but they are smaller than a BB. That was not a bedding job.

The pillar looks like he used a military Mauser pillar, which are too short to do much.

Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:24:39 AM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:26:09 AM EDT
[#25]
the dremel and soldering iron brigade should be along shortly
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:38:31 AM EDT
[#26]
H_R: Post pics of the AR firing pin.....

That one's always good for a laugh
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:40:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I used tin snips on an Ar once


Yea gonna need you to expand on that little tid bit
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:42:06 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1100046&page=1

Oh yeah and fuck Para Bellum Inc. Fuck them with a rusty pitchfork. Assholes.

OP and Bubbles know exactly who I'm talking about, those fucks.

Hadn't heard the whole story, but your SN (nothing bad! ) was mentioned in our discussion
yesterday about customer service (or lack thereof) that can gain or lose a `smith a lot of
business.
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 10:48:09 AM EDT
[#29]


A man has got to know his limits and by god I know mine.  I won't hesitate to try a small amount of hand fitting, but that is about it.  If it isn't plug and play, I pay someone who knows what they are doing to take care of it.  

Link Posted: 10/12/2010 11:03:27 AM EDT
[#30]




Quoted:



Quoted:

Oh yeah and fuck Para Bellum Inc. Fuck them with a rusty pitchfork. Assholes.


Still bitter, are we?



I can hold a hell of a grudge.

Link Posted: 10/12/2010 11:08:35 AM EDT
[#31]




Quoted:



Quoted:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1100046&page=1



Oh yeah and fuck Para Bellum Inc. Fuck them with a rusty pitchfork. Assholes.



OP and Bubbles know exactly who I'm talking about, those fucks.


Hadn't heard the whole story, but your SN (nothing bad! ) was mentioned in our discussion

yesterday about customer service (or lack thereof) that can gain or lose a `smith a lot of

business.


O'RLY?



OP will almost always get my business when it comes to Smithin when I KNOW the job will be done right.

The moron's I previously mention even parked the bbl. The only thing they did was take the grips and sights off.  Did I mention that they took the sights (tru glow) out with a brass punch?  Hell, I consider myself lucky that they didn't use a steel center punch.





Link Posted: 10/12/2010 2:51:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
OP, can you quote me some Dremel barrel fluting on a 16" carbine (m4 profile) I might want some dremel milling on the upper and lower as well, so shoot me a quote for that if you wouldn't mind, nothing crazy, just some flowers and pretty birds, stuff you'd find on fudd guns!






JK'ing of course!


LOL... depends, do you want to drop it off, watch or help?  Price varies by degree of "help".  LOL  
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 2:53:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
H_R: Post pics of the AR firing pin.....

That one's always good for a laugh


LOL... okay, I'll do that and the bolts.  Give me a few.
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 3:17:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
H_R: Post pics of the AR firing pin.....

That one's always good for a laugh


LOL... okay, I'll do that and the bolts.  Give me a few.


I don't know where the firing pin is, basically the owner of these three bolts tried using it as a punch and bent it at almost a 80 degree angle.  But, here's the pics of the bolts.  All three came out of the same gun.  The fubar'ed case is the result of massive over lubrication in the firing pin channel.

Okay, going from top to bottom.  First bolt, over pressure in the chamber.  Handloads.  Second bolt, same thing.  Note that the customer noticed the crack in the bolt at the cam pin location before it failed.  Third down is the bolt where the round had a hydrostatic ignition.  The round fired out of battery.  This round destroyed the rifle... Which is kind of a blessing in this case.    Note the bent all to hell extractor.

Second pic is just a closer shot of the bolts.  



Link Posted: 10/12/2010 4:51:22 PM EDT
[#35]



Quoted:



A man has got to know his limits and by god I know mine.  I won't hesitate to try a small amount of hand fitting, but that is about it.  If it isn't plug and play, I pay someone who knows what they are doing to take care of it.  





99% of hand fitting parts is patience and understanding how they interact. The other 1% is mechanical.



 
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 4:56:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:

Quoted:
A man has got to know his limits and by god I know mine.  I won't hesitate to try a small amount of hand fitting, but that is about it.  If it isn't plug and play, I pay someone who knows what they are doing to take care of it.  


99% of hand fitting parts is patience and understanding how they interact. The other 1% is mechanical.
 


The patience part is where I am lacking most of the time.  
Link Posted: 10/12/2010 5:35:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
All three came out of the same gun.

This round destroyed the rifle...

Which is kind of a blessing in this case.

Forgot that the last one had KB'd and trashed it.

Three bolts gone w/ the last one a KB is nature's way of telling you that it's time to find a new hobby!

Link Posted: 10/12/2010 5:45:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
All three came out of the same gun.

This round destroyed the rifle...

Which is kind of a blessing in this case.

Forgot that the last one had KB'd and trashed it.

Three bolts gone w/ the last one a KB is nature's way of telling you that it's time to find a new hobby!



No, it's proof that the Grim Reaper and Darwin are one in the same.  
Link Posted: 10/18/2010 6:40:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Got the new stock in from Boyds.  I'll take pics and post them as I finish it out.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:07:23 AM EDT
[#40]
Okay, our new stock has arrived.  Here it is as it came in...



Since this pic, the stock has been sanded several times, stained and oiled.  I'll post pics of that later.  

Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:18:49 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
H_R: Post pics of the AR firing pin.....

That one's always good for a laugh


LOL... okay, I'll do that and the bolts.  Give me a few.


I don't know where the firing pin is, basically the owner of these three bolts tried using it as a punch and bent it at almost a 80 degree angle.  But, here's the pics of the bolts.  All three came out of the same gun.  The fubar'ed case is the result of massive over lubrication in the firing pin channel.

Okay, going from top to bottom.  First bolt, over pressure in the chamber.  Handloads.  Second bolt, same thing.  Note that the customer noticed the crack in the bolt at the cam pin location before it failed.  Third down is the bolt where the round had a hydrostatic ignition.  The round fired out of battery.  This round destroyed the rifle... Which is kind of a blessing in this case.    Note the bent all to hell extractor.

Second pic is just a closer shot of the bolts.  

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/efillc/guns/Picture060.jpg

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/efillc/guns/Picture061.jpg


How do you even...

And then after the first one happened...

But then you just keep...

And so you...


Man, some people just should not have access to a reloading press.  I use Reloder-15 for .223 loads.  Varget is also popular.  I don't even know that it's possible to fit enough powder into the case to kB a rifle.  The standard highpower load of  24.5gr under a 77SMK is already compressed.

The hell powder was this guy using?  Bullseye or something?
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:37:12 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
H_R: Post pics of the AR firing pin.....

That one's always good for a laugh


LOL... okay, I'll do that and the bolts.  Give me a few.


I don't know where the firing pin is, basically the owner of these three bolts tried using it as a punch and bent it at almost a 80 degree angle.  But, here's the pics of the bolts.  All three came out of the same gun.  The fubar'ed case is the result of massive over lubrication in the firing pin channel.

Okay, going from top to bottom.  First bolt, over pressure in the chamber.  Handloads.  Second bolt, same thing.  Note that the customer noticed the crack in the bolt at the cam pin location before it failed.  Third down is the bolt where the round had a hydrostatic ignition.  The round fired out of battery.  This round destroyed the rifle... Which is kind of a blessing in this case.    Note the bent all to hell extractor.

Second pic is just a closer shot of the bolts.  

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/efillc/guns/Picture060.jpg

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/efillc/guns/Picture061.jpg


How do you even...

And then after the first one happened...

But then you just keep...

And so you...


Man, some people just should not have access to a reloading press.  I use Reloder-15 for .223 loads.  Varget is also popular.  I don't even know that it's possible to fit enough powder into the case to kB a rifle.  The standard highpower load of  24.5gr under a 77SMK is already compressed.

The hell powder was this guy using?  Bullseye or something?


The guy that owned that gun is a REAL nice guy.  Very friendly and outgoing.  I feel bad for him honestly but reloading wasn't the only issue.  He lubed the hell out of the firing pin and channel resulting in the hydrostatic ignition of the cartridge that destroyed the gun.  

As for his reloading techniques...    And that's all I'll say.  I really don't know what powder he was using.

Link Posted: 10/28/2010 9:14:29 AM EDT
[#43]
Ok... So far, I've dry sanded the stock twice, once with 240 and once with 600.  Then I applied a light coat of a light stain followed by a darker stain to bring out the wood grain a bit better.  I again dry sanded with 600 grit then applied a very light coat of dark stain again to accent the stock some.  This was followed by a cloth application of Arrow Wood finish oil.  I let it dry then applied again with a cloth.  Waited a day and applied another application using 2000 grit paper.  Repeated twice and this is what we have so far...





Bear in mind that I'll be doing several more applications of Arrow Wood before the stock is finished.  I'm pleased with how it's turning out and this stock has some cool character to it too.

Below are a couple of pics of a cool part of the stock.  The wood grain is quite eye catching here.  





Note that on the customers request, I am not applying any borders or caps on the wood.  We've simplified the stock some.  Also, the black dots are nylon reinforcing bars installed by Boyds.  They've really done a great job on all their stocks and this one really appeals to me.
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