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Posted: 10/4/2004 5:16:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 5:25:18 PM EST by glockguy40]
Ok.... so I was having this totally pointless conversation the other day with a friend about a hypothetical situation.

We were talking about the possibility of someone breaking into your house, and they came at you with something akin to a chair or baseball bat. I told my friend the following:

First off, I would warn to him to drop the weapon (whatever it may be), and get on the ground. If he still came at me, I would shoot him.

My friend said if he attacked, that I was justified in defending myself, but he also said that depending on how many times I shot the intruder, it could be manslaughter. I said WTF are you talking about???

He said if I shot him more than twice.... it would probably be construed as manslaughter because doing so would mean I was intentionally trying to kill the person.

I didn't then, and still don't understand this logic. As long as I don't stand over the guy after he is down, reload, and dump an extra clip into him, WTF is the difference between shooting the guy twice, or five times before he goes down. I mean seriously....

Can someone else help me out with this???
I mean I know our country has gone to the Darkside of PC, but really, why can't I shoot the guy more than twice and not go to jail??? I want to make sure the guy is not going to get up to be a threat.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:23:50 PM EST
Look at him and tell him "of course I am trying to kill him!"

I was debating gun control with my liberal PoliSci class, and one guy in the back said that "assualt weapons are only good for killing people!" and I looked him in the eye and said "self defense is about killing people". Lots of people got it, right then and there. You could see a light go on in their eyes.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:29:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
Ok.... so I was having this totally pointless conversation the other day with a friend about a hypothetical situation.

We were talking about the possibility of someone breaking into your house, and they came at you with something akin to a chair or baseball bat. I told my friend the following:

First off, I would warn to him to drop the weapon (whatever it may be), and get on the ground. If he still came at me, I would shoot him.

My friend said if he attacked, that I was justified in defending myself, but he also said that depending on how many times I shot the intruder, it could be manslaughter. I said WTF are you talking about???

He said if I shot him more than twice.... it would probably be construed as manslaughter because doing so would mean I was intentionally trying to kill the person.

I did then, and still don't understand this logic. As long as I don't stand over the guy after he is down, reload, and dump an extra clip into him, WTF is the difference between shooting the guy twice, or five times before he goes down. I mean seriously....

Can someone else help me out with this???
I mean I know our country has gone to the Darkside of PC, but really, why can't I shoot the guy more than twice and not go to jail??? I want to make sure the guy is not going to get up to be a threat.





Simple. You don't shoot to kill somebody. You shoot to stop the attack. If he decides to stop when he sees the weapon and surrenders, you have no right to shoot.

OTOH, if you shoot him once or twice and he keeps coming, it's OK to shoot again until he stops being a threat.

You don't have to convince me, as I could care less how many times you shoot an assailant.

You have to convince a jury because there's a pretty good chance you are going to wind up in court no matter what.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:31:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:34:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Deadly Force is Deadly Force.

Shooting him more doesn't make it more "deadly" in the eyes of the law.



in other words make sure you finish the job, two can keep a secret if one of them is..........
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:35:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 5:36:08 PM EST by glockguy40]

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Deadly Force is Deadly Force.

Shooting him more doesn't make it more "deadly" in the eyes of the law.


This was my thinking. If shot the guy twice, either of those 2 rounds could have been fatal... if he is still on his feet and I fire another double tap to make sure he goes down, WTF is the difference... it just insures the safety of my family. If the guy is hyped up on coke or PCP, who knows if the guy will go down after just two shots. When he drops, I can understand there is no point in continuing to fire- that would be overkill. Otherwise....... what is the difference?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:36:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

My friend said if he attacked, that I was justified in defending myself, but he also said that depending on how many times I shot the intruder, it could be manslaughter. I said WTF are you talking about???

He said if I shot him more than twice.... it would probably be construed as manslaughter because doing so would mean I was intentionally trying to kill the person.




I shot until the attacker stop his agressive, dangerous actions. When he stopped acting in a manner that was thrreatening my life, I immediately stopped shooting. Just like the police are trained to do.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:37:13 PM EST
Or...

Keep shooting until the BG knows he's been shot.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:39:20 PM EST
Your home defence weapon is an M1?




I didn't then, and still don't understand this logic. As long as I don't stand over the guy after he is down, reload, and dump an extra clip into him, WTF is the difference between shooting the guy twice, or five times before he goes down. I mean seriously....



Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:40:14 PM EST
I worked with a chick from England and we would always get into arguements over guns and self defense. One day I asked her honestly if she was being robbed and her life was in immediate danger, would she kill the person. She then started to talk about how its not worth a human life, blah blah blah.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:44:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 5:47:20 PM EST by glockguy40]
...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:46:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Your home defence weapon is an M1?



LOL. No... actually a GLOCK .40

And I say extra clip because I keep my clips only half loaded because I don't want to wear out the mag spring. 1/2 of a 10 rounder = 5 rds. I gotta get some Glock hi caps now that the ban is burning in hell.



I don't think you understand, they are called magazines, clips are for garands
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:47:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Your home defence weapon is an M1?



LOL. No... actually a GLOCK .40

And I say extra clip because I keep my clips only half loaded because I don't want to wear out the mag spring. 1/2 of a 10 rounder = 5 rds. I gotta get some Glock hi caps now that the ban is burning in hell.



You have much to learn, young one.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:47:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 5:49:38 PM EST by glockguy40]
Well someone is being a little anal aren't they.

Sorry I didn't catch that
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:55:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
Well someone is being a little anal aren't they.

Sorry I didn't catch that



Nope. saying clips when you mean mags drives most of us up a wall.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:56:56 PM EST
Shoot to stop the threat.

Magazine, not clip

Your mag spring will not wear out.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 5:58:55 PM EST
You're right... the spring probably won't wear out... and even if it did, I could afford to destroy one or two mags if the extra capacity saves my life.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:00:19 PM EST
Prosecutor: "Mr. Jones, why did you shoot your assailant fifteen times?

Mr. Jones: "Because that's all there was in the magazine."

Remember the Pizza Hut delivery driver that did just that? No charges filed.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:02:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
Well someone is being a little anal aren't they.

Sorry I didn't catch that



Anal? NOT!
I put the little smilie guy in there, but yes, it drives me up a wall when people call them clips just because it isnt right. Not because I'm anal.
I'm pretty laid back actually.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:08:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:09:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
You're right... the spring probably won't wear out... and even if it did, I could afford to destroy one or two mags if the extra capacity saves my life.



I keep mine fully loaded. I was keeping them loaded with only 5, but then I thought that the springs won't wear out, and why fumble with TWO mags to get a total of 10 rounds, when I could have TWO fully loaded mags, and have 20 rounds. And I need full capacity mags as well.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:14:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 6:16:59 PM EST by glockguy40]

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
Well someone is being a little anal aren't they.

Sorry I didn't catch that



Anal? NOT!
I put the little smilie guy in there, but yes, it drives me up a wall when people call them clips just because it isnt right. Not because I'm anal.
I'm pretty laid back actually.



Sorry didn't mean any disrespect. I should have used the proper term. It's just you knew what I meant.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:18:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 6:19:27 PM EST by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:22:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:24:29 PM EST
Yes... it is true... ideally one should always strive for accuracy in their shooting and in what they are trying to communicate. However, no one is perfect... I admit my mistake.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:30:16 PM EST
Remember to use the same bullets that your local State Troopers use...

Don't wanna get caught with them blood-thirsty Black Talons... they'll paint a pretty grim picture of you in court.


Of course, if said cop bullets aren't reliable in your defense piece, don't use em...


- BG
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:33:06 PM EST
Ain't nothing wrong about haveing an M1 as a home defense weapon,just pity the neighbors!

It'll get er done!!!

Bob
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:38:47 PM EST
I don't know why this guy (the one you were talking to) should be taken seriously. Look through some self-defense cases - it's pretty well established that you have a right to continue to shoot a Bad Guy until he is no longer a threat. He might just run away when you pull a gun, or he might take a full magazine or more before going down. That's not to say that lawyers haven't argued that too many shots = excessive force, but it doesn't work.

Maybe you should remind him that you're trying to kill someone anytime you shoot them. If any shots after the first two are "trying to kill him", then what were the first two shots? A friendly hello?

Even telling the Bad Guy to drop the weapon isn't always a good idea. When you come upon the intruder, you have the initiative, and therefore the advantage. Telling him to drop the weapon gives away your presence and the fact that you are armed, and then you have to wait for him to do something and react to it. That gives him the advantage, in the form of a half-second or so of head start. At close range inside a home, with a weapon in the Bad Guy's hands, that half-second can be the difference between survival and death.

As you might have noticed, to someone serious about guns, calling a magazine a clip is like calling a gun a potato. And loading your magazines to their full capacity is perfectly safe and will not wear out the springs or anything like that.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:41:25 PM EST
Some of you actually load your mags at half capacity?? What? Were you born in a barn?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:49:12 PM EST
I use plain ole .45 fmj. 13 rds otta do it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:53:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I use plain ole .45 fmj. 13 rds otta do it.



Yep same here. My HK USP .45 will do the job if it's ever needed. I need to get the 12 round mags now though.

As for the topic, I would continue to fire until there was no longer a threat. You wouldnt get in any trouble unless you empty your mag into the BG once he's already down.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:33:33 PM EST
It is not manslaughter, it is Homicide, (Justifiable Homicide) The justified killing of a human being by another.

It would only turn crimminal on your part if you continued to shoot after the person no longer posed a threat. You can keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:41:51 PM EST
shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:50:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 8:52:56 PM EST by Synister1]
I practice my home defence at the range.

Two in the chest one to the head, I've gotten the pattern down to no misses upto 25 yards away with my kimber.


I was told along time ago by a local Det. In these kind of incidents the only side of the story the cops should hear is yours and make sure they die in the home. If they stumble outside drag them back in.

We do have that worthless no retreat state-law here. You may use force if you have no retreat. Never stopped burglers from get getting shot around here tho. Home invations are rare because the invaders tend to leave in body bags.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 10:08:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
It is not manslaughter, it is Homicide, (Justifiable Homicide) The justified killing of a human being by another.

It would only turn crimminal on your part if you continued to shoot after the person no longer posed a threat. You can keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.



True ............... BUT

Even if you don't get charged with a crime , you can still face a civil suit .
Thats where round count can bite you in the ass .
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 10:24:11 PM EST
About the mag springs,
the REPEATED COMPRSESSION and EXPANSION of the magazine
springs is what causes them to wear out.
Its called metal fatigue.
You can leave a magazine fully loaded for 60 years,
and it won't have any damage.
But constantly load it and unload it for 60 years,
and guess what you have left.
I rotate my magazines once a year.
Never had a problem.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 1:36:57 AM EST
BTT
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 1:57:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
I worked with a chick from England and we would always get into arguements over guns and self defense. One day I asked her honestly if she was being robbed and her life was in immediate danger, would she kill the person. She then started to talk about how its not worth a human life, blah blah blah.



That shows that she places more value on the life of a criminal thug than her own.

She should read the essay "A Nation of Cowards."
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 1:59:08 AM EST
I taught my wife to keep squeezing the trigger as long as she has a good target.

The more holes she puts in the BG, the less likely he is to harm her.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:22:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:42:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
I worked with a chick from England and we would always get into arguements over guns and self defense. One day I asked her honestly if she was being robbed and her life was in immediate danger, would she kill the person. She then started to talk about how its not worth a human life, blah blah blah.



Never get into a discussion about guns and/or self-defense with most any European (sorry, Andy and equin0x). It is an utter waste of time. They aren't listening, and to them, you are a murderous troglodyte.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig."
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:44:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
....he also said that depending on how many times I shot the intruder, it could be manslaughter. I said WTF are you talking about???

.



Two words for your friend - mag dump.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:45:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

As long as I don't stand over the guy after he is down, reload, and dump an extra clip into him, WTF is the difference between shooting the guy twice, or five times before he goes down. I mean seriously....

.



As long as the entry wounds are all in the front, I'm betting you are OK.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:46:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 2:49:27 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I use plain ole .45 fmj. 13 rds otta do it.



45 ball has TERRIBLE one shot stop capability.

You may HAVE 13 rounds, but ONLY the ones that hit the target count.

Persoanlly, i'd rather go with 10+1 of even 9mm hollowpoint (with a better one shot stop experience) than 20 rounds of 45 ball.

(I actually have chosen 40 S&W hollowpoints - capacity AND mass.)



Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:52:43 AM EST
You are pulling the trigger to stop a threat against yourself. This means pulling the trigger until the threat goes away. Be this 1 shot, or a dozen, it matters not. I have seen someone shot once die, and someone shot several times live. You never know.

What is scary is that these type of people end up on juries.

"Well you shot him 5 times. Once or twice would have been ok, but after the 3rd time you were just trying to kill him...."

Well duh. He was trying to kill me. How exactly do you propose I handle a guy who 1. Wants to kill me and B. has been shot twice but is still coming at me? Give him a wet sloppy kiss?
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:57:18 AM EST
BTT
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:05:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
I worked with a chick from England and we would always get into arguements over guns and self defense. One day I asked her honestly if she was being robbed and her life was in immediate danger, would she kill the person. She then started to talk about how its not worth a human life, blah blah blah.



I've had the same conversation. I asked the young lady who's life was more important to her. Hers? or the rapist trying to kill her? She got a strange look on her face and didn't answer.

I think for alot of these folks, the idea that they could be the victim of a homicidal criminal is outside of the scope of what they consider their reality. That is why when they are the victim, they say things like " I couldn't believe it was happening to me ". They have lived such a sheltered life that the thought of being a victim has not really entered their mind at all. They truly believe that society will protect them. Usually it only takes one truly close scrape for them to understand the true nature of their place in the world. Unfortunately there are all to many in this country that will realize this lesson in the last possible second before they will never get to realize anything ever again.

I have been an LEO for 18 years. I can tell you with certainty that the best defense against the dangers on our streets is to learn to recognize the danger signs and to avoid them when at all possible. The second best, is a gun and the knowledge and mindset to use it when the first defense has not been adequate.



Great post! Sad to say, that's true for most people.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:06:53 AM EST
My goal in such a scenario is to shoot him once. In the face. With a 12-guage. If really necessary I will shoot him some more. If 6 rounds of 00 buck doesn't sop him I'm going out the window.

Legally the non-standard response(keep shooting until he isn't a threat) is usually acceptable. If you shoot him when he is on the ground, or when he is running, you better have a good reason.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:07:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 4:08:14 AM EST by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:10:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheRicker:

Originally Posted By garandman:

45 ball has TERRIBLE one shot stop capability.





MYTH ALERT!

Tsk, tsk, garandman. I thought you knew better than to swallow all the bilge that the gun rags spew forth.



No offense, but I've seen the ACTUAL POLICE DATA from ACTUAL shootings , ballistic gelatin testing, etc, from too many sources that are more reputable and knowledgeable than an internet discussion board.

ESPECIALLY from a board that adheres to the phallic 45 like some sort of religion.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:11:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 4:12:43 AM EST by the]

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
You're right... the spring probably won't wear out... and even if it did, I could afford to destroy one or two mags if the extra capacity saves my life.



+1 on the spring not wearing out. Springs tend to wear out from use, meaning repeated compression/release - not from being held in one state or the other.

I did an experiment with a few of my AR mags. Kept three of them (30rnds) fully loaded for 2 years, and packed away. These were old mags, too - clearly well-used - and 'liberated' by a bud of mine (former Army) years ago.

Used them a few weeks ago. Shot through them all. Not a single failure to feed.
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