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Posted: 1/20/2006 3:59:58 AM EDT
Let me explain first.

Let say that the most rapresentative manufacturer of Firearms in USA would deal US gun owner as follows:

- welcome government requests to obstacle AR ownership to US gun owners
- sells their products (rifles....) and suddenly to cut spare part supply
- sells a US made products 20 or 30 % more to US owners and cut prices to foreign customers
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance
- has in deep contemption the domestic gun market because "it is of no relevance"

Would you keep going on buying from that manufacturer?

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:09:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:12:00 AM EDT

Beretta


That is enough for me never to buy anything from them.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:14:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
Let me explain first.

Let say that the most rapresentative manufacturer of Firearms in USA would deal US gun owner as follows:

- welcome government requests to obstacle AR ownership to US gun owners
- sells their products (rifles....) and suddenly to cut spare part supply
- sells a US made products 20 or 30 % more to US owners and cut prices to foreign customers
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance
- has in deep contemption the domestic gun market because "it is of no relevance"

Would you keep going on buying from that manufacturer?




Havent heard about much of what you say . Not flaming you or defending Beretta but any links ?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:24:29 AM EDT
Kimber, Colt, Springfield, Glock, SIG, Heckler and Koch; plenty of other alternatives for pistols.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:30:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:30:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 4:32:29 AM EDT by KlubMarcus]

Originally Posted By metroplex: Kimber, Colt, Springfield, Glock, SIG, Heckler and Koch; plenty of other alternatives for pistols.
I'm partial to Ruger. The .45 models keep talking to me at the sporting goods store, "take me home baby... you know you want me".

I'm waiting for the ice cream truck to drive outside my door and drop off a crate, but alas it hasn't come.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:33:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance



I can't speak to the rest, but I've never had a problem with my Beretta pistol. It's the smoothest operating pistol I have ever fired. The slide movement is like butter.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:36:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
Let me explain first.

Let say that the most rapresentative manufacturer of Firearms in USA would deal US gun owner as follows:

- welcome government requests to obstacle AR ownership to US gun owners
- sells their products (rifles....) and suddenly to cut spare part supply
- sells a US made products 20 or 30 % more to US owners and cut prices to foreign customers
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance
- has in deep contemption the domestic gun market because "it is of no relevance"

Would you keep going on buying from that manufacturer?




I have read the above about 4 times and with all the bad spelling and grammar I have no clue what you are talking about. Do you have a link to read on this subject?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:41:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:44:25 AM EDT
and we care about Italy because..............?

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:45:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CbtEngr1:
and we care about Italy because..............?




They are charging a US Service member with murder.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:52:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:

Originally Posted By CbtEngr1:
and we care about Italy because..............?




They are charging a US Service member with murder.



And what does that have to do with Beretta treating Italians like crap?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:06:40 AM EDT
Because I think the problem is the Italian government and not its civilians/individuals.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:20:27 AM EDT
Paolo...I hate to say it, but that's what happens when you live in a country where gun control is at the whim of the UN. Most, if not all, of Europe is like that. It's the price YOU are paying to live there. BTW, my 3 ITA made Beretta pistols are flawless, and have always run like a top.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:31:05 AM EDT
im half Italian.


i have a beretta 92fs and a CX4. that have been nothing but flawless
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:45:54 AM EDT
Ok, sorry for the bad grammar this time, but I am very pissed off with the Gardone firm.

Well, Beerslayer understood the right way, and I put everything in the perspective of the average US gun owner to make you understand better my point:

Beretta is treating Italians with contempt. The only civilian market they regard as interesting is USA one.

Why? End year turnout and profits.

I understood that if ANY of the Us companies would treat you Americans like Beretta is treating us Italians, none of you would keep buying from THAT firm, thing that I am personally already doing since three years ago.

The episode that made me think happened three years ago.

A friend of mine needed some spare parts for his AR70 and called the customer service in Brescia.

The Beretta guy on the other side of the line asked: "How did you manage to get a war weapon?"
This friend startled and answered: "War weapon? It is a CIVILIAN version of your rifle! What are you talking about?"
Beretta: "Sorry, but we don't send ANY spare part of war weapons to civilian"
End of conversation.

When I heard this, I decided to boycott ANY Beretta new product.

The confirm came when the CX4 saw birth:

- prices in US about 600 dollars
- prices in Italy about 800 Euro!!!

Why the hell should I pay MORE a nationally produced gun?

I hardly understand why a US AR15 clone can cost 750 dollars in USA and 1up to 2000 EURO in Italy, but I guess there are some export and shipment expenses and a profit for the importer/dealer.

But I CANNOT accept that something made in Italy costo MORE in Italy that in USA.

As I supported the S&W boycott, when they signed the liabilyto agreement with Clinton administration, and I didn't buy a single S&W revolver when boycott was in act, I ask if you would consider to do the same for the Beretta products until they will put again on the Italian market:

- AR70/90 S
- CX4 at the SAME price of the US market
- spare parts service.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:49:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:50:49 AM EDT by fook]
Shit people, those fuckers at beretta treat the US market like shit.

Ever try to get an owners manual for something they make? Don't.

Took six days to get a response that sounded like a third grader wrote it.

And do not even think about contacting Beretta International to tell them B. USA sucks.

They already know.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:50:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RobarSR60:
Paolo...I hate to say it, but that's what happens when you live in a country where gun control is at the whim of the UN. Most, if not all, of Europe is like that. It's the price YOU are paying to live there. BTW, my 3 ITA made Beretta pistols are flawless, and have always run like a top.



You are right.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:52:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:53:52 AM EDT by Usafwolfe]
ummm.........OK?

I still didn't get all that Paolo.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:57:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:03:52 AM EDT
What is so different of Beretta as compared with some of our domestic gun manufacturer?
- Colt never really care for the civilian market, they love their military and LE sales. Getting Colt parts for AR is quite a task for civilian as compared with LE, LE connected, or military.
- Ruger never sold their good Mini-14/AC-556 high capacity to civilian, and is an active participant supporting the high capacity magazine and assault weapon (the Mini-14 was kept in the "protected" list), now sunset, Klinton ban. They were rewarded by given a contract to buy their F--- Over Rebuilt close bolt UZI.
- S&W signed the Klinton smart gun pack.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:05:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 6:06:34 AM EDT by imposter]
I bought a used Beretta 92F and it was missing the little medallions on the pistol grip. I called Beretta, and they sent me two pairs (each pair had a different design) for free. That was my only experience with their customer service, but it was a good one.

It was a good pistol, except for that super heavy trigger. But I do not have any plans to buy more of their products.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:07:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Usafwolfe:
ummm.........OK?

I still didn't get all that Paolo.



If you can't understand it when he retyped it, you never will.....

And I think that Beretta is crap in the first place.

I've owned 1 Beretta, an M9 marked 92FS, and never put a round through it. Bought it becasue the gy was desperate to get rid of it. Turned around and sold it and made a few bucks, and was still able to give the guy I sold it to a good deal.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:10:40 AM EDT
I have never owned a Beretta. I don't have any plans to buy a Beretta.

It's not really a boycott, because I didn't want one in the first place!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:17:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leungken:
What is so different of Beretta as compared with some of our domestic gun manufacturer?
- Colt never really care for the civilian market, they love their military and LE sales. Getting Colt parts for AR is quite a task for civilian as compared with LE, LE connected, or military.
- Ruger never sold their good Mini-14/AC-556 high capacity to civilian, and is an active participant supporting the high capacity magazine and assault weapon (the Mini-14 was kept in the "protected" list), now sunset, Klinton ban. They were rewarded by given a contract to buy their F--- Over Rebuilt close bolt UZI.
- S&W signed the Klinton smart gun pack.



dang, beat me too it....
and the good ole USA didn't put these or any other prick companies out of business.
good luck.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:19:38 AM EDT
I have a sweet O/U from them.

But Colt treats us like they treat you.

I don't buy from Colt so I understand you.

G
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:21:40 AM EDT
Glock USA likes all of their customers.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:31:02 AM EDT
Italy. The entire country probably has a gun market smaller than New York city's. Beretta more than likely decided the hoops they would have to jump thru in a European nation just was not cost effective. Do you think there is an English market? I don't blame them for that at all.

I own practically the entire Beretta line. From .22 tip up barrels to o/u 12 gauge. I've carried one for decades now. I can't comment on Beretta service, I've never had one break.

Unlike some I'll actually FIRE a weapon before I call them junk. In Beretta's case, they are not.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:45:38 AM EDT
If I had not seen that the originator of the thread was in Italy, I would have assumed he was talking about Colt.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:47:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 6:48:19 AM EDT by rjroberts]

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Italy. The entire country probably has a gun market smaller than New York city's. Beretta more than likely decided the hoops they would have to jump thru in a European nation just was not cost effective. Do you think there is an English market? I don't blame them for that at all.

I own practically the entire Beretta line. From .22 tip up barrels to o/u 12 gauge. I've carried one for decades now. I can't comment on Beretta service, I've never had one break.

Unlike some I'll actually FIRE a weapon before I call them junk. In Beretta's case, they are not.



You are correct. ANd, you entire first paragraph could apply to H&K in their dealings here. They did or did not do a number of things because of the hoops imposed by the US gov. Hence, many things people expected never came. What were they supposed to do?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:56:09 AM EDT
Whoops, should have made this thread earlier. I just bought a nice Uberti open top last Saturday.

I do like the 92F too. Too bad Beretta disrespects the locals.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:59:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leungken:
What is so different of Beretta as compared with some of our domestic gun manufacturer?
- Colt never really care for the civilian market, they love their military and LE sales. Getting Colt parts for AR is quite a task for civilian as compared with LE, LE connected, or military.
- Ruger never sold their good Mini-14/AC-556 high capacity to civilian, and is an active participant supporting the high capacity magazine and assault weapon (the Mini-14 was kept in the "protected" list), now sunset, Klinton ban. They were rewarded by given a contract to buy their F--- Over Rebuilt close bolt UZI.
- S&W signed the Klinton smart gun pack.



You should boycott, imho, Colt, Ruger and S&W.

They COUNT on your money as Beretta counts on ours... and YOURS!

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:02:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:

Too bad Beretta disrespects the locals.



That's the point that piss me off the most.

And, since I am organizing rifle matches with AR rifles in Italy, it is really SAD to see civilian competitors with AR of any brand but Beretta, just because our national producer don't sell the "evil gun"...
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:09:13 AM EDT
I'll boycott 'em with you.

I'm not a fan of their weapons anyway. If I want a large frame 9mm, I'll get my P226 out of the safe. (M9 locking block and slide failures)

Sounds like they could use a wake-up anyway.

sorry to hear of the maltreatment Paolo
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:54:54 AM EDT
I bought a Beretta about 2 months ago, goes great with my 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6, 7 other berettas I own. No boycott for me
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:18:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
Let me explain first.

Let say that the most rapresentative manufacturer of Firearms in USA would deal US gun owner as follows:

- welcome government requests to obstacle AR ownership to US gun owners
- sells their products (rifles....) and suddenly to cut spare part supply
- sells a US made products 20 or 30 % more to US owners and cut prices to foreign customers
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance
- has in deep contemption the domestic gun market because "it is of no relevance"

Would you keep going on buying from that manufacturer?




That sounds just like Colt.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:19:27 AM EDT
Is it illegal for Italian civilians to own say an AR-70?

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:39:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 9:03:02 AM EDT by PaoloAR15]

Originally Posted By CRC:
Is it illegal for Italian civilians to own say an AR-70?




There are THREE version available for civilian market in Italy:

AR70 in .222 remington - available at the time when .223 was forbidden
AR70 in .223 remington
AR70/90S in .223 remington

The first is quite rare and cheap.

The second is more rare than chicken teeth: normally to get one you EXPORT and "sell" your AR70 in .222 to a Swiss gunshop. In Switzerland the .223 barrels from Beretta are available (and in Italy NOT!!! ) and the Swiss armourer will mount and headspace it. Then they will "sell" to you the gun in .223 and you will import again your gun in the new caliber, ship to the proof bench and finally the gun became your own property.

The third is the semiauto only version of the current assault rifle of the Italian Army, was allowed for civilian sales by a commission of the Ministry of the Interior. Beretta did it PROMISING that this model will NEVER be available really on the market. The reason is simple: taxes and production. If a company produces war weapons pays more taxes, BUT if the gun has the 90% of the parts in common with a civilian rifle, the company will pay much LESS taxes. Furthermore, if you want to sub-contract your rifle, very FEW ones have the special license to build and handle war weapons, but if you can subcontract most of the parts of a CIVILIAN rifle, it will cost much less and you will find much more companies.

All this behaviour was imposed by the government to Beretta and Beretta accepted it because the management aimed to achieve the purchase order to supply our army with... 90.000 rifles!!!

In the world NOBODY wants the AR70/90. We didn't made a product to be exported!!! Quality standard are low (except the barrels: Beretta KNOWS how to do in excellent way) and costs are high.

A bare AR70/90 costs about 900 Euro (more than 1000 dollars!) to the Esercito Italiano.
We cannot count on scaling the production to obtain lower the costs because the rifle not only don't meet quality standards, but also because the "moral issue" that the leftists politicians and media are putting everytime in firearms trade: no one of the politicians in Italy want to appear as "death merchant".

The ridicolous thing is that we could get the M16A1 at ridicolous costs, the Colt importer was arrested under charge of "illegal import of war firearms", charge that after THREE YEARS of legal procedure revealed to be FALSE and TOTALLY ABUSIVE (the prosecutor was NOT incriminated for false accusation, but simply put in retirement and won a seat in the Italian Parliament for the Communist Party...). When the legal procedure ended and the importer was recognized fully innocent and refunded, the AR70/90 was already adopted in place of the M16...

Last but not least, more and more armed corps in Italy are buying M4s...

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:51:05 AM EDT
Great example of why we need to protect the right to keep and bear arms that we still have in the USA.
Eventually it will become too difficult/unprofitable for firearm manufacturers to continue doing business. It does hurt when a manufacturer has bad service, but it is more important to support the companies that have a good product and good service.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:53:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By metroplex: Kimber, Colt, Springfield, Glock, SIG, Heckler and Koch; plenty of other alternatives for pistols.
I'm partial to Ruger. The .45 models keep talking to me at the sporting goods store, "take me home baby... you know you want me".

I'm waiting for the ice cream truck to drive outside my door and drop off a crate, but alas it hasn't come.


YES,introduced a friend of mine to my Super Redhawk in .454 the other day. He wants one bad now. They make an awful lot of handgun for the money.I'd put mine up against any other manufactere of big bore revolvers.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:11:36 AM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By leungken:
What is so different of Beretta as compared with some of our domestic gun manufacturer?
- Colt never really care for the civilian market, they love their military and LE sales. Getting Colt parts for AR is quite a task for civilian as compared with LE, LE connected, or military.
- Ruger never sold their good Mini-14/AC-556 high capacity to civilian, and is an active participant supporting the high capacity magazine and assault weapon (the Mini-14 was kept in the "protected" list), now sunset, Klinton ban. They were rewarded by given a contract to buy their F--- Over Rebuilt close bolt UZI.
- S&W signed the Klinton smart gun pack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You should boycott, imho, Colt, Ruger and S&W.

They COUNT on your money as Beretta counts on ours... and YOURS!



I am just poining out what Beretta did is no different than some of our local manufactuer did.

But on the other hand, as counting on our monry:
Colt is still Colt, their largest customer is DOD, and they are catering to them. Boycotting them don't really have any effect.
S&W have lost their police market and rely on civilian sales, and the boycotted have changed their position, plus the Klinton deal is now non-existance.

Ruger are still supported by sporting shooters and hunters, and they are not going to boycott Ruger. I doubt Ruger care for yours and my business since none of their product interest me, no, not even then FOR-UZI or AC-556. Besides, I cannot get the magazine anyway.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:17:05 AM EDT
Well, I can testimony on what Paolo said...
the fact is that Beretta DOES have a very good market in Italy, BUT treats Italian customers like shit. That is, unless you purchase a SO10EELL, a 30.000 Euro luxury 12GA. over/under.

"military" type guns are pretty much despised by the Gov't, every gun type and configuration that will be sold on civilian market has to be "approved" on a list of firearms by the Commission of Common Weapons, which decides whater the gun is a "war weapon" or not (I cannot explain what they mean with the term "war weapon", in any case a SIG 550 semiauto is prohibited and the SAN Sport Europe, identical to the canadian Blue Star is not) the only good this brings is that once a weapon "passes", it is there to stay for good... or until the law changes.

This has nothing to do with Beretta, as M4 rifles, in 223, with 14,5 barrels and full collapsible stocks in totally military configuration less the full auto and full 30 round magazine (they are limited to 10) were available and are totally legit (IF we could still import them from USA!!!), so who has them can keep and use them at will!!!!

So there is NO law preventing Beretta to sell AR70's to Italian customers... except, they are a bunch of assholes. Try to obtain a spare part from Bertta USA for the AR70.... see what they will tell you.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:27:16 AM EDT
Paolo, this is off topic but how is Bernadelli for spare parts over there? I have a P One pistol by them that I need a spring for that I cannot find at home to save my life.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:39:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Usafwolfe:

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
Let me explain first.

Let say that the most rapresentative manufacturer of Firearms in USA would deal US gun owner as follows:

- welcome government requests to obstacle AR ownership to US gun owners
- sells their products (rifles....) and suddenly to cut spare part supply
- sells a US made products 20 or 30 % more to US owners and cut prices to foreign customers
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance
- has in deep contemption the domestic gun market because "it is of no relevance"

Would you keep going on buying from that manufacturer?




I have read the above about 4 times and with all the bad spelling and grammar I have no clue what you are talking about. Do you have a link to read on this subject?



He is Italian. He is typing English far better than you can type Italian.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:41:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 11:43:33 AM EDT by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By leungken:
What is so different of Beretta as compared with some of our domestic gun manufacturer?
- Colt never really care for the civilian market, they love their military and LE sales. Getting Colt parts for AR is quite a task for civilian as compared with LE, LE connected, or military.
- Ruger never sold their good Mini-14/AC-556 high capacity to civilian, and is an active participant supporting the high capacity magazine and assault weapon (the Mini-14 was kept in the "protected" list), now sunset, Klinton ban. They were rewarded by given a contract to buy their F--- Over Rebuilt close bolt UZI.-
S&W signed the Klinton smart gun pack.



Blah, blah, blah..........I heard it on the internet.........blah........blah.......blah

No proof of anything, just internet bullshit.

I notice that you did not put Glock on your list. Gee, I wonder why.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:52:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Usafwolfe:

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
Let me explain first.

Let say that the most rapresentative manufacturer of Firearms in USA would deal US gun owner as follows:

- welcome government requests to obstacle AR ownership to US gun owners
- sells their products (rifles....) and suddenly to cut spare part supply
- sells a US made products 20 or 30 % more to US owners and cut prices to foreign customers
- sells it's best know products (pistols) with no regard of quality assurance
- has in deep contemption the domestic gun market because "it is of no relevance"

Would you keep going on buying from that manufacturer?




I have read the above about 4 times and with all the bad spelling and grammar I have no clue what you are talking about. Do you have a link to read on this subject?



He is Italian. He is typing English far better than you can type Italian.



+1 on that..

Thanks for posting PaoloAR15.

Beretta shotguns are sweet, especially the semi autos...

I don't own any Beretta products, however a Beretta shotgun is the only thing I would consider buying.


You Italians do have some other fine gunmakers...

Uberti is one that comes to mind.

I have a few Uberti black powder revolvers.

Hard to believe that some of the best reproduction guns come from Italy.

Seems a few Italian gun companies have a facisnation with the American west...





Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:54:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By metroplex: Kimber, Colt, Springfield, Glock, SIG, Heckler and Koch; plenty of other alternatives for pistols.
I'm partial to Ruger. The .45 models keep talking to me at the sporting goods store, "take me home baby... you know you want me".

I'm waiting for the ice cream truck to drive outside my door and drop off a crate, but alas it hasn't come.



I have had a P90 for 10 years, nary a hiccup. I have a P345 as well and it runs great. Had a P97 that functioned flawlessly, but sold it to get the P345. The P345 grip is better than any factory pistol I have ever held (not counting Hogues added, just as is from factory).
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:39:38 PM EDT
I can't comment on Beretta's treatment of italian customers, but maybe, just maybe, the higher price of a locally sold pistol has something to do with the increased trouble that Beretta has to go through to sell a gun there, and the quantity that are purchased. In the USA, its much easier to sell a gun, and many more potential customers are abound, so the price probably goes down because of that. I'm not saying it excuses the charges stated. I think it is a matter of supply/demand. Never had to deal with their customer service department eithor.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:09:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fook:
Shit people, those fuckers at beretta treat the US market like shit.

Ever try to get an owners manual for something they make? Don't.

Took six days to get a response that sounded like a third grader wrote it.

And do not even think about contacting Beretta International to tell them B. USA sucks.

They already know.



Compare that to the service I got from Steyr. I emailed them for an AUG manual and it arrived in less than a week
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:21:33 PM EDT
First pistol I ever bought was a Beretta 96FS...before I knew anything

I also have a Cheetah. 380.....

I love the Cheetah, and would recomend it for someone looking .380.... but would not ever buy another 92, 96 or what have you....and would steer people clear of these others.

Politics aside, there are just way too many other superior quality firearms out there...
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