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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/16/2004 5:32:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:34:07 AM EST
Nope, none at all.

I do live pretty hard by the Golden Rule though, I do treat others as I expect to be treated.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:37:17 AM EST
Without a social contract, we are nothing but animals.

My big fear, as I become an old grouchy fart, is that modern society is gradually abandoning it. My blood boils when I see am ambulance go down the road with the lights and sirens on, and ASSHOLES don't get out of the way !!!
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:40:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:40:20 AM EST
Of course there is a social contract. It's that 'consent of the governed' thing... Not acknowledging one is the definition of being an anarchist.

Where it gets muddy is in the scope of government. My acceptance of the 'social contract' is acknowledging that govenrment is a necessary evil. Some unfortunately see this contract through eyes that see government as a vehicle to manage the lives of citizens.

Do not confuse the 'social contract' with socalisim.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:40:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:44:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By hielo:
Nope, none at all.

I do live pretty hard by the Golden Rule though, I do treat others as I expect to be treated.


Isn't that the same concept in it's most basic form? You're treating others well in the expectation that you will be treated the same way by others.



Hmm, I think the difference isin the nuance. I do no texpect nor woudl I accept any government handout, no matter the circumstance. That taken from me is done completely against my will, no matter if it is feeding the poor, underprivalged children or being shipped off to a foreign nation.

WIll I pull over for an ambulance? Every, single time, I will run my car off the road and into a brick wall if need be tonot hinder the ambulance, only because I woudl hope that the rest of society woudl do the same, for me.

Social contract, an agreement we are forced to take part in by way of birth, with no viable means to renegotiate, it just doesn't seem right to me. It smacks of coerscion.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:45:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By hielo:
Nope, none at all.

I do live pretty hard by the Golden Rule though, I do treat others as I expect to be treated.




Unless they live in a Florida trailer park I guess
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:52:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:52:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do you believe in any sort of social contract? In other words, do you feel any obligation whatsoever to any other member of society to whom you are not bound by blood, marriage or friendship? I guess this would encompass stepping in and coming to the aid of strangers, not taking easy opportunities to steal from others and the like. Or do you believe that having FICA and all the other welfare programs paid for out of your paycheck is enough?



I believe in 'Thou Shalt Not Steal', etc...

I believe that if you can help someone who has an obvious problem, you should at least consider it...

However, I do not believe society has any right to expect me to 'provide for the less fortunate' - that is a function of choice/charity, not of government.

I definately don't believe in the existance of 'social responsibility' in the business world -> Corporations are in this world to make money for their stockholders, and for NO OTHER REASON. They are not here to provide jobs, or education, or medical benefits, JUST TO MAKE A PROFIT FOR THE OWNERSHIP Any other expectation is
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:58:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Of course there is a social contract. It's that 'consent of the governed' thing... Not acknowledging one is the definition of being an anarchist.

Where it gets muddy is in the scope of government. My acceptance of the 'social contract' is acknowledging that govenrment is a necessary evil. Some unfortunately see this contract through eyes that see government as a vehicle to manage the lives of citizens.

Do not confuse the 'social contract' with socalisim.


I wasn't really talking about the Jean-Jacques Rousseau idea of the social contract between the government and the governed. I understand that that's the most common use of the term, but I was thinking more of any sort of agreement / expectation / contract / obligation between an individual and his fellow homo sapiens.



Phew - when I read DriftPunch's response (whom I almost always agree with) I thought I had misunderstood your question, and needed to go back and browse Plato and Rousseau again to come up with an intelligent response.

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:58:42 AM EST
Only this one:

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you,...
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:00:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Only this one:

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you,...




So I should be having sex with models and gymnasts - because I sure want them to have sex with me!!
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:02:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:16:30 AM EST
I do whatever it takes to get the most stuff and the best life for myself and my family. No prisoners.

That said, I see no reason to go out of my way to to be unpleasant to my fellow human beings - if I see someone who needs my help, and the risk/cost to me is negligable, then of course I'll help. Furthermore, I try to be pleasant and courteous to other people, and I don't sail too close to the wind legally or "morally"... if nothing else, I do these things for selfish reasons (the "what goes around comes around" doctrin).

I think this makes me a Compasionate Conservative
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:18:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By taptap:

Originally Posted By hielo:
Nope, none at all.

I do live pretty hard by the Golden Rule though, I do treat others as I expect to be treated.




Unless they live in a Florida trailer park I guess



I would expect to be chasitised, and probably even ridiculed if I decided to build my home on a busy railroad track. When the first train came along and demolished my home, people woudl rightfully ask why I had built it right on the tracks. WHen I proudly stated that that is where my house has always been and always will be, and I rebuild it, I can not expectmuch sympathy from anyone else, nor would I expect much sympathy. Would you?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:21:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Only this one:

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you,...




So I should be having sex with models and gymnasts - because I sure want them to have sex with me!!



I hope we are talking female models and gymnasts?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:23:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Only this one:

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you,...




So I should be having sex with models and gymnasts - because I sure want them to have sex with me!!



I hope we are talking female models and gymnasts?



You know those friggin dutch, any port in a storm...
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:25:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:27:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 6:28:18 AM EST by kill-9]
No. I accept only contractual obligations which I enter into consciously and voluntarily. I don't steal from others because I respect their individual rights, just as I expect them to respect mine. Also, all charity should be voluntary; taxation for the purpose of charity is immoral.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:28:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:30:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:36:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:36:58 AM EST
Yes, as understood by John Locke.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:41:36 AM EST
I guess I do. I feel obligated to return some of the kindness that's been extended to me over the years, I still stop and help stranded motorists, and and pitch in in emergencies.

I can't say it's easy though because to be blunt, I dislike almost all of them!
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:53:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Without a social contract, we are nothing but animals.

My big fear, as I become an old grouchy fart, is that modern society is gradually abandoning it. My blood boils when I see am ambulance go down the road with the lights and sirens on, and ASSHOLES don't get out of the way !!!

+1

I don't think my tax money being used for welfare excuses me from being charitable when I need to be. My family comes first, followed by my friends, and then total strangers are a judgement call whether or not I stop to help them. If we want limited government, we need to be willing to help each other in times of crisis. I would much rather see private citizens helping out freely than the government stepping in. Everyone needs a hand now and then, we are all in this together.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:56:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do you believe in any sort of social contract? In other words, do you feel any obligation whatsoever to any other member of society to whom you are not bound by blood, marriage or friendship? I guess this would encompass stepping in and coming to the aid of strangers, not taking easy opportunities to steal from others and the like. Or do you believe that having FICA and all the other welfare programs paid for out of your paycheck is enough?



I could not be a conservative, Christian, American with a belief in the institutions that this country was founded upon and honestly answer "no" to your question.

I don't ride by accidents where I see people who are seriously hurt. I don't steal from people simply because an opportunity presents itself. If I found a wallet full of money with an ID in it I would contact the owner directly and return their property. I don't believe that it is the governments responsibility to provide for the security and the well being of every individual 24/7...I believe that we as Americans should help each other as we can. I believe that everyone is responsible for their own actions and should do their very best to provide for themselves, but I believe that everyone needs a hand with something, sometime in their lives.

I send packages to our troops overseas, all of whom I've never met nor am likely to. Nobody asked them if they felt a responsibility to help their fellow Americans, they just stood up and did it. The least I can do is to give a small thanks for their courage and comittment to us.

And to make it clear, I cannot seperate my response from my Christianity and I think that this is true for many Americans. It is my faith, and the faith of our founding fathers that are ingrained in the American system and the American character. I cannot seperate my actions from my faith anymore than I can seperate my arm from my body. Moral and ethical responsibility is the duty of all in a free society. If this is not true, then who should we expect to become that authority for us? The government? That will surely be the end of this nation should we allow that to happen.

Americans are the most generous people in the world. They are always willing to give when others are in need, and without having to be forced to or shamed into it. But as generous as Americans are, nothing irritates Americans more than to have the government force them to give to something that they don't believe in themselves. For the sake of our interpersonal relations as Americans, I hope it will always be so.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:44:26 AM EST
Well said.

Most of the guys I shoot with or eat with are some of the most generous folks I know.

The ones who weren't, aren't really around anymore.

Most of lifes tasks are easier with more hands.

Just like posted above, I am very generous when I can afford to be. I hate it when the .gov takes something for me to distribute to people for votes.

TXL
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:56:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:19:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 11:21:37 AM EST by KBL]

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
...but...

Moral and ethical responsibility is the duty of all in a free society.

As you say, morality and ethics are expected of everyone in our free society --even non-Christians, presumably. If that is the case, everyone must be able to derive the standards by which they live their lives, independent of their religion, yet you won't even entertain the notion.



Yes, that's true. But I, like the founding fathers whose vision created this free society, were Christians. They used that as the moral underpinning when creating this country and it's evident everywhere in the founding documents. I'm not saying that one must be a Christian to ascribe to this morality, but it's existence as the foundation of our country is impossible to refute. Certainly a man can live by a moral code that prevents him from stealing while he is also helpful to his fellow man...and he doesn't have to be a Christian. But to do so as an American, by American principles, is to do so by the standards that Christians believe in. Whatever one chooses to call their morality, if it is the traditional American form, it has it's roots in the founding father's Christianity. Obviously, you may call it what you choose.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:16:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 1:23:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 8:48:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
You guys wanna see something really scary?

Without having ever seen this topic, I just posted this...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=268028&page=1&#-1


There is a word for this, aside from scary, but I can't put my finger on it.




Hmmm... both of you joined in Feb '01. SteyrAUG is just a troll account of Jarhead_22!!


But seriously, I believe we come in to this world with responsibility, and accepting that provides the energy to make the world a better place. The ammoral and sociopathic are parasites, although they view themselves as clever and superior, and often do quite well when measured on the scale of shiney things.

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