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Posted: 5/7/2004 10:40:25 AM EST
Feel bad for them ??
Yea, so do I.
I mean what they went through, the horror they endured, the shame, the humiliation.
They should thank ole' allah that they were in our hands at this time in history.
What would the Vikings do to prisoners ?
Ghengis Khan ?
Romans ?
Hell, that's assuming they even bothered to take prisoners.

Imagine if they were captured in WWII........
What would the Russians have done to them ?
The Germans ? They were good to prisoners and civilians right ?
The Japs ? beheadings, starvation, Bataan death march etc..
Something newer you say, more modern.....
What if they had been captured by saddam or any other arab force. We all know they treat their own with the utmost respect for human life......right ?
Yes, they shouldn't have been treated that way, at least not on camera
This is war and war is hell. Imagine if we actually had the collective will to actually fight a REAL war and unleash hell on them. To use evey and any means needed to keep our warriors alive and kill as many enemy as possible as quickly as possible. We hold back our warriors, they should thank us for being so civilized.
Rant over, carry on.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 10:47:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:03:00 AM EST
Although I may disagree with you on the military aspects of this latest incident, I wholeheartedly agree that the Arab world and the US Congress (and their willing accomplices in the media) is chock full-o' hypocrites.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:03:48 AM EST
Yes but, we are not Russians, Nazis, WWII era Japanese, Romans, Gengis' horde, insurgents, Saddam, or Arab terrorists.

We are Americans, and therefore we are better than the scumshit animals of the world that you mentioned. Granted, they would have been treated worse with those groups, but that is not a reason to say, "to fuck with moral superiority, i want to act like a scumshit subhuman!"

I dont like the double standard that we are held to, or the absence of outcry over the 9/11 attacks, or the fact that Arabs scream bloody murder over the abused peisoners when they do worse to us, but that doesn't justify lowering ourselves to their level.

How do we want to bee seen by future generations:

"America; hey, at least they weren't as bad as the arabs." or

"America; land of the morally superior."

Hoppy8420
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:06:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Rant over, carry on.



We are better than everyone you mentioned. That is the difference.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:07:43 AM EST
War is dirty
war is bad
war is to be avoided
But if we have war ............ fight and be the meanest badest mofo on the field of combat.

No such thing as doing it in a nice way ................. unless you want to lose ?
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:12:16 AM EST
Embarassment does not equal brutal atrocity.

Bataan.
Auschwitz.
Nazi Stalags.
Hanoi Hilton.

Those are a few examples of brutal atrocities. I'd imagine that for someone like John McCain, who spent a few years in the Hanoi Hilton, he would have welcome such brutality as being naked with a pair of womens panties on his head. 3/4 of the members of this very board BEG for the very same thing.

I do NOT agree with what our guys did, and I think it was wrong. But lets keep this in perspective.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:13:16 AM EST
Moral relativism at its best.

So as long as we treat people better than others (like for example, ancient barbarians, nazis, japs during WW2, or brutal psychotic dictators) then we still have the moral high ground? I'm sorry, but I still think that's BULLSHIT! That's like a person accused of rape saying "Hey, at least I didn't kill the bitch! What's the big deal?" - how much sympathy would you have for that if you were on the jury?

Our standards for how we treat people (ESPECIALLY as an occupying force when all eyes are on us, should be based on our PRINCIPLES, not some moving standard compared to what others have done in the past.

I know that lots of people disagree with me, but I still think I'm wrong and you are all wrong

... and btw - I don't really give a rat's ass about the "poor iraqis" who were piled in a naked pyramid (those pictures are laugh-out-loud funny, to tell the truth). What I do give a rat's ass about is the U.S. standing for some principles - and these assholes in the prison undermined that for us.

I also agree that in war, anything goes and all this concern for "colalteral damage" is sissy stuff - but this wasn't "war" - this was a prison, not a battlefield.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:15:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
<snip>

I know that lots of people disagree with me, but I still think I'm wrong and you are all wrong






You can't even catch a break from YOURSELF.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:16:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 11:17:10 AM EST by cyanide]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Moral relativism at its best.

So as long as we treat people better than others (like for example, ancient barbarians, nazis, japs during WW2, or brutal psychotic dictators) then we still have the moral high ground? I'm sorry, but I still think that's BULLSHIT! That's like a person accused of rape saying "Hey, at least I didn't kill the bitch! What's the big deal?" - how much sympathy would you have for that if you were on the jury?

Our standards for how we treat people (ESPECIALLY as an occupying force when all eyes are on us, should be based on our PRINCIPLES, not some moving standard compared to what others have done in the past.

I know that lots of people disagree with me, but I still think I'm wrong and you are all wrong

... and btw - I don't really give a rat's ass about the "poor iraqis" who were piled in a naked pyramid (those pictures are laugh-out-loud funny, to tell the truth). What I do give a rat's ass about is the U.S. standing for some principles - and these assholes in the prison undermined that for us.

I also agree that in war, anything goes and all this concern for "colalteral damage" is sissy stuff - but this wasn't "war" - this was a prison, not a battlefield.



That is the Euro trash coming out in you ole buddy.

I can not define it, I just know it when I smell it.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:17:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:
img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-3/141064/on_atrocities.jpg



This is the first time I've seen the pics of the bodies hung from the bridge To that I say FUCK YOU with all my being to all of these stupid fucking assholes we have in prison over there.

I'm so completely sick of the USA being called the bad guy when we have our heroes dying everyday to help others have at least a chance at the wonderful life we have in the USA.

COZ

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:33:20 AM EST
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!

were the common iraqis better off before or after the imperial occupation?? well lets explore this. right now they have no real facilities to speak of (hospitals, water, sewer, electricity, etc) durring sadams reign they had these things.

was saddam a bad person? of course, but just as in any dictatorship the only ones who phisically suffer/are tortured at the dictators hands are only his political foes - not the everyday normal working people. just like in this country or any other dictatorship.

so the answer is obviously they were better off before the imperial occupation.

if you say all of the kurdish people could not have been his political enemies so why kill them all? i will answer that the children in waco could have not been political enemies of our dictator.

all governments are evil - the only difference is degree.

ok you socialist heavy browridge guys; aim you flamethrowers, but make sure you lift your knuckles off the ground first.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:36:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!

were the common iraqis better off before or after the imperial occupation?? well lets explore this. right now they have no real facilities to speak of (hospitals, water, sewer, electricity, etc) durring sadams reign they had these things.

was saddam a bad person? of course, but just as in any dictatorship the only ones who phisically suffer/are tortured at the dictators hands are only his political foes - not the everyday normal working people. just like in this country or any other dictatorship.

so the answer is obviously they were better off before the imperial occupation.

if you say all of the kurdish people could not have been his political enemies so why kill them all? i will answer that the children in waco could have not been political enemies of our dictator.

all governments are evil - the only difference is degree.

ok you socialist heavy browridge guys; aim you flamethrowers, but make sure you lift your knuckles off the ground first.



I would try and dispute your legitimate claims .............
except you have raised none, I will not respond to your ramblings. To do so would make me the fool.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:41:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!

were the common iraqis better off before or after the imperial occupation?? well lets explore this. right now they have no real facilities to speak of (hospitals, water, sewer, electricity, etc) durring sadams reign they had these things.

was saddam a bad person? of course, but just as in any dictatorship the only ones who phisically suffer/are tortured at the dictators hands are only his political foes - not the everyday normal working people. just like in this country or any other dictatorship.

so the answer is obviously they were better off before the imperial occupation.

if you say all of the kurdish people could not have been his political enemies so why kill them all? i will answer that the children in waco could have not been political enemies of our dictator.

all governments are evil - the only difference is degree.

ok you socialist heavy browridge guys; aim you flamethrowers, but make sure you lift your knuckles off the ground first.



Further proof that the use of crack destroys vital brain cells.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:47:32 AM EST
Wow, not only did the monkey emphasize the word "conservative", but he also spelled it wrong!



Ouch! I scraped my knuckles typing that last sentance!
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:57:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Moral relativism at its best.

So as long as we treat people better than others (like for example, ancient barbarians, nazis, japs during WW2, or brutal psychotic dictators) then we still have the moral high ground? I'm sorry, but I still think that's BULLSHIT! That's like a person accused of rape saying "Hey, at least I didn't kill the bitch! What's the big deal?" - how much sympathy would you have for that if you were on the jury?

Our standards for how we treat people (ESPECIALLY as an occupying force when all eyes are on us, should be based on our PRINCIPLES, not some moving standard compared to what others have done in the past.

I know that lots of people disagree with me, but I still think I'm wrong and you are all wrong

... and btw - I don't really give a rat's ass about the "poor iraqis" who were piled in a naked pyramid (those pictures are laugh-out-loud funny, to tell the truth). What I do give a rat's ass about is the U.S. standing for some principles - and these assholes in the prison undermined that for us.

I also agree that in war, anything goes and all this concern for "colalteral damage" is sissy stuff - but this wasn't "war" - this was a prison, not a battlefield.



You make good points, and I respect them because you didn't bring up the Geneva Convention. These terrorists (who specifically target civilians and publicly mutilate the bodies of US soldiers) cannot be considered POWs by any reasonable person. I agree that we should hold a much higher moral standard than they do, but I just can't stand it when people bitch about the "Geneva Convention" without having even read it.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 12:03:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!
...
ok you socialist heavy browridge guys
...
make sure you lift your knuckles off the ground first



For someone so concerned about doing the right thing and playing by the rules, it's interesting that you don't seem to care about the Conduct Code of this board:



6.) Repeatedly attacking or insulting a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner.



Link Posted: 5/7/2004 12:53:10 PM EST
typical republicrats - debate based on emotion - NOT facts. you all have NO idea what freedom is. it is truly shamefull.

you dont want to debate facts because that would call your morals into question, and god fobid we do that.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:01:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!

were the common iraqis better off before or after the imperial occupation?? well lets explore this. right now they have no real facilities to speak of (hospitals, water, sewer, electricity, etc) durring sadams reign they had these things.

was saddam a bad person? of course, but just as in any dictatorship the only ones who phisically suffer/are tortured at the dictators hands are only his political foes - not the everyday normal working people. just like in this country or any other dictatorship.

so the answer is obviously they were better off before the imperial occupation.

if you say all of the kurdish people could not have been his political enemies so why kill them all? i will answer that the children in waco could have not been political enemies of our dictator.

all governments are evil - the only difference is degree.

ok you socialist heavy browridge guys; aim you flamethrowers, but make sure you lift your knuckles off the ground first.



Wow, I don't even know where to start. I can tell you have never been to Iraq.

Smalls
Cpl of Marines
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:02:28 PM EST
ahhh, if only digital picture tech was available with LBJ, & JFK.


THIS WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE!!
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:11:31 PM EST
I realize as Americans we have principles to stand behind and to not behave as barbarians. But I feel the time has past that we need to behave in that way. We need to make a drastic point so those who wish to harm us will fear us enough to leave us alone. I want this point clear enough that if 10 foreigners are standing in a group and one of them chucks a rock at an American, I want 9 of them to point to the one who threw it. I don't care if they like us, I don't care if they want to be like us, I want them to FEAR us. This I believe will save American lives in the long run.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:12:51 PM EST
Media and cameras have no place in a war!
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:21:09 PM EST
smalls,

that is a nonsequiter my friend no wonder you are a e3 non-com.

btw you were not there either pre march 2003. so you know nothing about pre US iraq
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:24:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!




"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."

- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:25:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!





Right after you finish reading a spelling book try reading one or two on history.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:25:56 PM EST
What's the point in celebrating the good (like that heroic Marine that saved his platoon) when you can't condemn the bad.

Let's not raise our glasses sardonically like Robert Graves " with affection, to the men we used to be"
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:28:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
<snip>

I know that lots of people disagree with me, but I still think I'm wrong and you are all wrong






You can't even catch a break from YOURSELF.




AAAAAAAAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHA. OMG I am SUCH a total idiot. I guess I'm just so used to being wrong all the time!

Just to be clear for those who argue that this is only fair "payback" for the civilian contractors in Fallujah - these pictures were taken months before that happened.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:38:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Just to be clear for those who argue that this is only fair "payback" for the civilian contractors in Fallujah - these pictures were taken months before that happened.



Bremer was told of what was happening in the prisons in november of 2003.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:41:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By carbine:
smalls,

that is a nonsequiter my friend no wonder you are a e3 non-com.

btw you were not there either pre march 2003. so you know nothing about pre US iraq



I have earned the grade of E4, which is the rank of Corporal and I am a Non-Commisioned Officer in the United States Marine Corp. You are right about the last part. I didn't have the pleasure.

Smalls
Cpl of Marines
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:56:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:
img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-3/141064/on_atrocities.jpg



I feel the same way.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 3:21:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Moral relativism at its best.

So as long as we treat people better than others (like for example, ancient barbarians, nazis, japs during WW2, or brutal psychotic dictators) then we still have the moral high ground? I'm sorry, but I still think that's BULLSHIT! That's like a person accused of rape saying "Hey, at least I didn't kill the bitch! What's the big deal?" - how much sympathy would you have for that if you were on the jury?

Our standards for how we treat people (ESPECIALLY as an occupying force when all eyes are on us, should be based on our PRINCIPLES, not some moving standard compared to what others have done in the past.

I know that lots of people disagree with me, but I still think I'm wrong and you are all wrong

... and btw - I don't really give a rat's ass about the "poor iraqis" who were piled in a naked pyramid (those pictures are laugh-out-loud funny, to tell the truth). What I do give a rat's ass about is the U.S. standing for some principles - and these assholes in the prison undermined that for us.

I also agree that in war, anything goes and all this concern for "colalteral damage" is sissy stuff - but this wasn't "war" - this was a prison, not a battlefield.



That's nice and all, but if we play by your rules, WE WILL LOSE THIS WAR! Not just Iraq, but the entire thing. I hope you can sleep well at night knowing that the U.S. stood by it's principles when you're wiping your ass with your bare hand, living in a dirt hut, and your fiance can't walk in the streets without a full-body covering for fear of being stoned to death. This is war, and it's war in Iraq, war in the prisons, and war here in the U.S. The desperate urgency of the situation, which many seem to be missing altogether, is the ONLY reason The Neutral Observer isn't bitching about the Patriot Act or the prison in Gitmo. They're both pretty damned unconstitutional, but they're also both pretty damned necessary. And this case isn't even in the same league as those two. These were assholes captured while engaged in combat against our forces, without a uniform on. So those terrorist assholes got piled up with a bunch of other naked terrorist assholes? Boo fucking hoo. They should have been sleep-deprived, food-deprived, physically tortured, and drugged to extract every last peice of information from them, then dragged out back and shot.

We were attacked by animals we had in no way provoked, and if you think these animals have anything different in mind for the U.S. than they have for Israel, you are mistaken. This war is FOR OUR SURVIVAL, and Iraq is an important battle in this war. Granted, the pictures don't exactly help in that, but that is the only issue here. The actual "torture" (bullshit) itself means nothing. Pussyfooting around like this will lose us this thing. Whoever wins this will write the history books, and we can either write them later to our satisfaction, or those that manage to escape the arab death camps can read them in arabic.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 3:32:51 PM EST
Yes, this is for our survival so why give the bad guys fodder for whipping up the masses. There was no reason for the stuff in the pictures to be done. Our country, I have felt is one that tries to base itself on integrity and religious virtues. Why lower ourselves. We can win without doing so.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:07:54 PM EST
Granted, we shouldn't be abusing prisoners. That's what the enemy would do. And it's what they DO do.

But I guarantee you, if YOU or I were a guard for these prisoners, we'd both have our limits as to what we'd take before we started dishing out some retaliation. Spit on me once and your ear will feel like it's on fire after I slap the holy shit out of it. Spit on me again and you're going to lose that tooth, or maybe more than one. Even TRY to bite me and you're going to be biting the floor, HARD and FAST. Actually succeed in biting me, and I'm going to kick your ass across the room, up the wall, across the ceiling, back down the other wall, and then into the corner with the other trash.

I'm sure some of the "abuses" handed out by our troops on these prisoners were RICHLY DESERVED.


It's so pathetic it's almost funny that the arabs, who are notoriously abusive to their prisonsers, are screaming about our troops handing out small doses of the same medicine.

CJ
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:10:31 PM EST
Just so I am not misunderstood.
I think what these morons did is wrong and those responsible, from the bottom to the top should be held accountable.
Justice must be served because thats what we do, thats who we are and because we ARE better than them BUT NOT BECAUSE WE WANT TO PLACATE THE DAMN MUSLIM COCKROACHES !!
My original point of this thread was to point out that even though what was done was wrong, it pales in comparison to how other nations wage war and how they treat their prisoners.
We are the nicest warriors ever and because we are, our enemy uses that against us.
Also, am I alone in thinking that the person who leaked this is a trator ?
He could have taken care of this "in house" instead of making it public and further putting our brave fighting men in greater danger.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:13:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By XM-15:
I want this point clear enough that if 10 foreigners are standing in a group and one of them chucks a rock at an American, I want 9 of them to point to the one who threw it. I don't care if they like us, I don't care if they want to be like us, I want them to FEAR us. This I believe will save American lives in the long run.




We're in absolute agreement here, but the reality is, we've become a nation that isn't up to handling the situation the right way. Right now, the Demofag bleeding hearts in congress are itching to ride the polls into the White House at ANY expense, including the blood of American soldiers. This is their issue. Ultimately, I believe they will fail, however, the damage has been done to our credibility. They are the problem, not some pictures of naked iraqi prisoners or those in charge of extracting info from them to help our war effort and save American lives.

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:07:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By carbine:
lets see here, we invade a country on false pretenses, and by coservative estimates weve murdered 8,000 to 10,000 civilians to this point, AND YOU WONDER WHY THEY WANT TO HANG OUR BURNING BODIES FROM TREES -- YOU GUYS ARE STUPID!!

were the common iraqis better off before or after the imperial occupation?? well lets explore this. right now they have no real facilities to speak of (hospitals, water, sewer, electricity, etc) durring sadams reign they had these things.

was saddam a bad person? of course, but just as in any dictatorship the only ones who phisically suffer/are tortured at the dictators hands are only his political foes - not the everyday normal working people. just like in this country or any other dictatorship.

so the answer is obviously they were better off before the imperial occupation.

if you say all of the kurdish people could not have been his political enemies so why kill them all? i will answer that the children in waco could have not been political enemies of our dictator.

all governments are evil - the only difference is degree.

ok you socialist heavy browridge guys; aim you flamethrowers, but make sure you lift your knuckles off the ground first.



I would try and dispute your legitimate claims .............
except you have raised none, I will not respond to your ramblings. To do so would make me the fool.




AMEN!
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:24:50 PM EST
I'm sure there are lots of other guys that would pay some good money to get handcuffed to a bed with some womans panties on their head.
They should put that spin on this
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:35:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 6:39:31 PM EST by Mr_Fabulous]
Rumsfeld today said it will get worse, there are rumors of a video tape showing the rape of women and boys. There are also rumors of murder.

I do not know how bad it will get, but from Rumsfelds words today, don't be suprised.


http://www.drudgereport.com/

Unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and 'acting inappropriately with a dead body.' Also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing guards raping young boys... Developing...
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:38:33 PM EST

We as Americans DO take the moral high ground, when we fight on the battlefield, in the way we treat prisoners, in the way we treat civilians.

Our conduct as soldiers, citizens and a nation defines the very values that separate us from those we are seeking to defeat and bring to justice.

I and others I've served with take pride in rising above such behavior and when you take that oath as an officer, I like to believe it is your moral prerogative to uphold a military and cultural tradition that doesn't lower itself to actions that are beyond the pale and to ensure those in your command understand clearly that this sort of thing simply is not tolerated.

If you want rationalize behaviors that make us more like them, hell, lets just go over and live with them and say f**ck it to every bit of military, legal and cultural tradition that we have tried to build up for over 240 years, just so that some of us can say we didn't do anything worse than what they have done to us.

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:56:45 PM EST
I speak from experience. I have been there and done that when it comes to the roles of the MP in combat, and I agree that the way they treated the prisoners was embarassing but that was about it. If what they did softened them up and enabled good and accurate information to be gained from their future interogations which in turn was used to save innocent lives and or take enemy lives before they could do more harm to us....then by all means the MP's doing the softening up should get medals not court martials. For any of you tree hugging, free love, cant we all just get along people you dont have a clue as to what it takes to defend the very freedoms you use to belittle the ones doing the defending, let alone know what it takes to win a war especialy one against enemies like these. I am all for peace but at the same time when they bring the fight to us or our friends then it is on and I agree with a statement made earlier that we ARE being very "nice" and "gentle" with this war because if we wanted to we could really unleash a fury that would bring great death and destruction to the enemy and save countless of our troops lives but we do not do this because there are so many people in the world that will say we fought too mean or too dirty in the war. My stomach turns each and every time I hear about another soldiers death and yet it turns alomst as much when I hear people say we are ugly, mean, war mongering Americans. We could pull out of every country in the world but our own and we could reap the rewards but then there would be people complaining that we are not doing enough to help in situations around the world only to complain even more when we do go and do something. My thoughts and prayers go out to all those who are serving our great country and to their loved ones as well, and as for all the piss and moaners...you all can get in line and kiss my AMERICAN ass!!!
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:06:47 PM EST
Yeah, they should be thankful that we don't treat them like they treat their POW's. They treat our people like shit, they rape and beat them, so who gives a fuck if we do something that isn't exactly kind to them? Let's all stop being politically correct. We can't fight for a country's freedom and win if we expect to follow some gay ass bullshit rules that the enemy does not abide by. You shouldn't need permission from anyone to return fire or to beat the shit out of a POW if you need information from them. You liberals do nothing but corrupt our freedom, go to Cuba and leave us alone.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:46:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 7:47:58 PM EST by Mr_Fabulous]
If it is true, as it has been alleged, that boys were raped and prisoners were murdered, there is NO justification.

These idiots have done more harm to our war effort than the enemy has.

Pointing out atrocities comitted by others does not justify the acts comitted in that prison. We are the good guys because we don't do things like that. We are moral and civilized.

http://www.drudgereport.com/

Unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and 'acting inappropriately with a dead body.' Also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing guards raping young boys... Developing...

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:48:26 PM EST
The U.S. is better than they are. The reason? The U.S. does not attack without provocation, and the U.S does not target civilians deliberately. However, those bastards set the rules of engagement when they attacked this country on September 11. They attacked this country, swore to destroy this country, and they must be eradicated. You seem to forget that those in the prison were not prisoners of war or innocent civilians. They were terrorists captured, out of uniform, while fighting against our forces.

They chose to conduct asymmetric warfare, and therefore unorthodox responses are justified by the U.S. It does not matter what the U.S. does to these terrorist bastards; this country is justified because they attacked first and chose the method by which they would fight this war.

Ask some veterans of the Pacific war what they think on this issue. The Neutral Observer has. They faced a similar situation versus the Japanese. You'll find their answers interesting.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:23:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 8:26:00 PM EST by Mr_Fabulous]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4925942/



Graham, a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: “I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.”

A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, “We’re talking about rape and murder here, we’re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.”



We are Better because we don't rape and murder prisoners.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:24:24 PM EST
The Neutral Observer doesn't believe the rape and murder charges for an instant.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:26:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:
The U.S. is better than they are. The reason? The U.S. does not attack without provocation, and the U.S does not target civilians deliberately. However, those bastards set the rules of engagement when they attacked this country on September 11. They attacked this country, swore to destroy this country, and they must be eradicated. You seem to forget that those in the prison were not prisoners of war or innocent civilians. They were terrorists captured, out of uniform, while fighting against our forces.

They chose to conduct asymmetric warfare, and therefore unorthodox responses are justified by the U.S. It does not matter what the U.S. does to these terrorist bastards; this country is justified because they attacked first and chose the method by which they would fight this war.

Ask some veterans of the Pacific war what they think on this issue. The Neutral Observer has. They faced a similar situation versus the Japanese. You'll find their answers interesting.



The U.S. has targeted civilains deliberately with aerial bombing in WW2. Besides the point regarding 9-11 is that I don't remember any of the hi-jackers being Iraqi so I find it strange to use that as justification for treating Iraqi prisioners as such. If the point is that they were all Muslim just keep going, why stop at iraq? Al Qaeda has been in favor of a holy war all along anyway.

Lastly, the Germans in World War2 committed terrible crimes in response to resistance fighters, you would choose to follow right in their footsteps.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:27:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:
The Neutral Observer doesn't believe the rape and murder charges for an instant.




I pray you are right. I'm on our side too.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:30:48 PM EST
The call for rumsfeld to quite or be fired are crazy. It is like holding a state Govenor personally responsible for the actions of a few renegade state employees.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:31:33 PM EST
We are getting into a rock and a hard place here.

More photos, especally if they show rape or murder, would cause even more Arab unrest. BUT if you don't show them, which the Army does not appear to now be inclined to do, it will be very hard to convince a large chunk of the public that the soldiers being charged are not being railroaded for foreign policy gains.

I already think that what the Pentagon and White House have allready done publicity wise to the Pennsylvania, Maryland, and West Virginia National Guardsmen charged so far have probably cost GW any chance of winning those states. WVA and MD were close wins for GW in 2000 and PA was a close loss. Arlen Specter just barely sqeeked by in the primary. He is showing no interest in looking out for the accused National Guardsmen. I think his seat is now very vulnerable.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:35:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Atencio:
The U.S. has targeted civilains deliberately with aerial bombing in WW2.



Incorrect, technically. The Norden bombsight was used for precision bombing. However, when the target was overcast (frequent in Europe), bombardiers made their best guess as to where to drop the bombs. And, bombers over Japan were loaded with many incendiaries to create firestorms in the cities, even though the official targets were military or industrial. The letter of law was obeyed, if not the spirit.



Besides the point regarding 9-11 is that I don't remember any of the hi-jackers being Iraqi so I find it strange to use that as justification for treating Iraqi prisioners as such. If the point is that they were all Muslim just keep going, why stop at iraq? Al Qaeda has been in favor of a holy war all along anyway.



Who is to say all (or any) of those prisoners were Iraqi? Foreign terrorists are flocking to Iraq to fight against U.S. forces. Certainly most, if not all, were engaged in fighting against U.S. forces. Since they were out of uniform at the time, that definately makes them terrorists.



Lastly, the Germans in World War2 committed terrible crimes in response to resistance fighters, you would choose to follow right in their footsteps.



The Germans were the aggressors in World War 2. They attacked other nations without provocation and were intent on conquering Europe and enslaving others. The U.S. is responding in self-defense to an unprovoked attack and the intent is eventual democratic rule in Iraq. Your comparison is in extremely poor taste.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:36:56 PM EST
Maybe, but I think if the Democrats focus too much on this issue it may just bite them in the butt unless the more serious charges of rape and murder are true which at this point is anyones guess if they are or not.
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