Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 21
Posted: 9/23/2004 12:40:48 PM EST
Just so you can understand where I'm coming from -

Evolution attacks the HEART of Christianity in two ways -

1. Evolution is always looking for the "next great advancement" of the species. In reality, the next great advancement of the species has already come - the salvation Jesus Christ purchased for man. In salvation, man is elevated higher than he ever has been in human history. Man will eventually realize his penultimate state when the universe ends and he is re-united in sinless perfection with his God.

Evolution takes what Jesus Christ has already accomplished (for those who receive Him as Saviour) and make it something to come at a future date, and renders God's supernatural to be a relatively meaningless natural phenomenon.

2. In Creation, God provided man the visual, tactile, tangible evidence necessary for a man to accept in faith #1 above. Creation (intelligent design by a sovereign God) is God's proof text for salvation in Jesus Christ (as explained above)

The Creation is evidence of an AMAZING God.


In short, evolution is the PERFECT counter attack to attempt to negate God's free offer of salvation. It minimizes salvations proof text to "random mutation" and it renders God's supernatural redemptive work for man to be a natural process.

These things convince me evolution is the VERY work of Satan intent on taking you to hell, and keeping you from achieving full joy in a personal relationship with the God of the universe.

Just so you understand....

And I'm not really interested in arguing the points, but would be glad to clarify the above.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:43:02 PM EST
I'm still a Darwinist, and still not Christian.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:44:28 PM EST
AMEN Brother!
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:44:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 12:47:39 PM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:45:24 PM EST
"So you can understand why I hate the lie of evolution... "

Actually, no, I can't.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:45:26 PM EST
Its a proven fact animals evolve. Humans are animals.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:46:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
In short, evolution is the PERFECT counter attack to attempt to negate God's free offer of salvation.

In the same way that the red pen is a a counter attack on an errant high school book report. Have you been sniffing the spine glue of your bible again.


These things convince me evolution is the VERY work of Satan intent on taking you to hell, and keeping you from achieving full joy in a personal relationship with the God of the universe.
Nope, it was specifically designed to raise your blood pressure in an attempt to give you a stroke, and thus meet your maker earlier. See just how wise god is?


And I'm not really interested in arguing the points.
Sure your are, you can't resist...
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:46:38 PM EST
People attempting to refute science hurt christianity.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:46:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1776:
Its a proven fact animals evolve. Humans are animals.



Yes, they do. No sensible individual argues that.

But they DO NOT MACRO evolve - from apes into humans.

But again, the details of evoution aren't really the point.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:46:54 PM EST
Actually its a proven fact that there is a link between species, speciation has always been the weak point of the theory and were still looking for transitive forms.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:47:29 PM EST
Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:47:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By rayra:
"So you can understand why I hate the lie of evolution... "

Actually, no, I can't.



And that's OK.

I like to be able to explain it to you, and if you have any specific ???'s please ask.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:49:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Have you been sniffing the spine glue of your bible again.

{evolution} was specifically designed to raise your blood pressure in an attempt to give you a stroke, and thus meet your maker earlier. See just how wise god is?






Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:49:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does.


+1
I still don't see why people have so much trouble roconciling faith and science.
Must be an ego thing.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:49:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 12:50:53 PM EST by Spade]
Explain to me why

a)evolution couldn't be God's work? I'm personally not going to run about telling the Almighty what he can and cannot do (nor am I going to accept basically heathen creation stories).

b)since Christ himself was created specifically by god, without the whole normal people doin' the deed thing, why would he be assumed to be subject to any of the normal rules of evolution and nature?

Evolution isn't an attack on Christianity. It's just slowly revealing how god does in fact work (Which is far stranger than most people think). God gave us brains to create science, and to discover such things. As my parents, both scientists, say, the more you really look at science, evolution, astronomy, etc. the more you both understand god and see the majesty of his creation.

But I suppose we could all burn our books and smash our telescopes and miss out on how great god really is.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:52:29 PM EST
I've NEVER been able to understand why evolution and Christianity can't coexist happily.

There is simply too much evidence (proof really) that evolution exists and controls the development of species on earth.

There is also no way that the biblical story of creation can be true as written.

There is also no real explanation for any number phenomena on the earth and in the universe.

There is no denying, to me anyway, that it took something of immense power to create and to put us herre.

I belive that was God. That he set in motion a PROCESS for things to occur as they have since the begninning of time. The culmination of that process was man and his ability to reason and choose his own course.

Intelligent design, or whatever you call it, is my belief.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:54:55 PM EST
[Steven Wright]If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?[/Steven Wright]
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:55:51 PM EST

These things convince me evolution is the VERY work of Satan intent on taking you to hell


how do you feel about book burnings?
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:56:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Spade:
Explain to me why

a)evolution couldn't be God's work? I'm personally not going to run about telling the Almighty what he can and cannot do (nor am I going to accept basically heathen creation stories).



I'll accept evolutionary theiry to the degree it agrees with the written Word of God. Macro evolution over vast expanses of time is DIRECTLY contradictory to Scripture. ("The evening and the morning were the first day..." etc etc etc)


b)since Christ himself was created specifically by god, without the whole normal people doin' the deed thing, why would he be assumed to be subject to any of the normal rules of evolution and nature?


Christ was not created by God - He is very God of very God, as the thir4d person of the Trinity.


Evolution isn't an attack on Christianity. It's just slowly revealing how god does in fact work (Which is far stranger than most people think). God gave us brains to create science, and to discover such things. As my parents, both scientists, say, the more you really look at science, evolution, astronomy, etc. the more you both understand god and see the majesty of his creation.

.



The more I look at science, creation, astronomy, anatomy, biology, psychology, etc, the more I see a sentient Creator God.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:56:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:

These things convince me evolution is the VERY work of Satan intent on taking you to hell


how do you feel about book burnings?



STRONGLY against them.

Pollutes the environment

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:56:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does.




I wish I would have said that.

Good one.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:57:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:03:49 PM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
I've NEVER been able to understand why evolution and Christianity can't coexist happily.

.



Very simply, MUCH of macro evolution theory disagrees DIRECTLY with the Word of God, the Bible.


But again - the POINT here is to explain WHERE and WHY evolution ATTACKS SPECIFICALLY Christ's work of redemption.

As such, Chritianity and macro evolution can NEVER co-exist.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:58:20 PM EST
Your not going to like this then..

Battling Bubbles May Be Our Ancestors
Simpler explanation proposed for cellular evolution
By Gabe Romain
Betterhumans Staff
9/3/2004 4:01 PM
Advertisement


A simpler explanation for how cells evolved has been proposed, one that suggests a battle of bubbles and undermines the current theory of how cells compete for materials necessary to expand their size.

Researcher Jack Szostak and colleagues from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute in Chevy Chase, Maryland suggest that genetic material that replicated quickly may have been all that primordial cells—at that time really just bubble-like sacs—needed to edge out competitors and begin evolving into complex cells.

"Most of the previous thinking about how cells grew and evolved was based on the idea of the initial evolution of structural RNAs or ribozymes—enzymes that could synthesize membrane molecules," says Szostak. "The ribozymes might have made more membrane material while the structural RNAs might have formed a cytoskeleton that influenced stability, shape, growth or division."

Evolutionary expansion

Cells, the fundamental structural and functional units of all living organisms, are encapsulated by membranes composed of fatty acids and other lipids to protect genetic material from the outside environment and confine biochemical activity.

A central question in evolution is how simple versions of cells first arose billions of years ago and began the process of competition that drove the evolution of life.

Szostak and colleagues theorize that a simple physical process might explain why cells would compete with one another for the materials necessary to expand their size.

They suggest that genetic material could drive the growth of cells simply by its presence alone. As RNA—the nucleic acid involved in transcribing genetic information from DNA into proteins—exerted pressure on the inside of cell membranes, it caused the membrane to expand, say the researchers.

"We proposed that it could do so through the spontaneous transfer of material from other vesicles nearby that have less internal pressure because they have less genetic material inside," says Szostak.

Victorious vesicles

To test their theory, the researchers constructed artificial fatty acid vesicles—basically fatty sacs—that closely resembled those that may have existed at the dawn of evolution. They filled the vesicles with either a solvent containing a sucrose solution or the same solvent without sucrose. They found that the sucrose solution created greater pressure on the walls of the vesicles than did the solvent alone.

When Szostak and colleagues mixed the two vesicles, the ones with sucrose grew by drawing membrane material from those vesicles without sucrose. In the battle of the bubbles, the higher-pressure sucrose-filled sacs won out.

The researchers then conducted the same tests using vesicles loaded with nucleotides—the basic molecular building blocks of genetic material. Next, they used RNA segments, and finally a large, natural RNA molecule. In all cases, they found that the vesicles with genetic material grew, while those with no genetic material shrank.

"In contrast to the earlier idea that Darwinian competition at the cellular level had to wait until the evolution of lipid-synthesizing ribozymes or structural RNAs, our results show that all you would need is to have the RNA replicating," says Szostak. "The cells that had RNA that replicated better—and ended up with more RNA inside—would grow faster. So, there is a direct coupling between how well the RNA replicates and how quickly the cell can grow."

The researches are now working to create artificial, replicating RNA molecules to actually see the competitive process of growth that they are hypothesizing.

The research is reported in the journal Science.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:59:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1776:

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does.




I wish I would have said that.

Good one.



I'm OK with that - to the degree evolutionary theory agrees with Scripture. I believe in micro evolution.

But again - the POINT here is to explain WHERE and WHY evolution ATTACKS SPECIFICALLY Christ's work of redemption.

As such, Chritianity and macro evolution can NEVER co-exist.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:00:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
There is simply too much evidence (proof really) that evolution exists and controls the development of species on earth.



There is no evidence. It's the same as discovering a whole slew of computers and theorizing that Pentiums evolved from 8086 machines when it's obvious that someone designed and created them.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:01:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Your not going to like this then..




There's a shocker -

evolutionists AGAIN move the goal posts.



Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:03:53 PM EST
Preach it, Brother!
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:06:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By rayra:
"So you can understand why I hate the lie of evolution... "

Actually, no, I can't.



And that's OK.

I like to be able to explain it to you, and if you have any specific ???'s please ask.


No thanks, been proslytized enough. Born and raised a Roman Catholic, my mother a Greek Orthodox, and before I graduated high school my own experiences around the world (military brat), varied education systems, and my own readings led me to become Agnostic. Another 20yrs on, and I have even less use for modern organized religions.
I'll respect their rights to their own beliefs, practice of their Judeo-Christian beliefs, but I have zero interest in them myself or in their beliefs being mandated by law.
I am a Moral and Ethical person, withOUT obeisance to a Religion.

And that's all I'll say on it. I have no intent / desire to insult True Believers, or argue the points.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:08:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By rayra:
Another 20yrs on, and I have even less use for modern organized religions.



That's true of me also. My faith in God is IMMENSELY personal.




And that's all I'll say on it. I have no intent / desire to insult True Believers, or argue the points.



Cool. Be good.



Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:10:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
There is simply too much evidence (proof really) that evolution exists and controls the development of species on earth.



There is no evidence. It's the same as discovering a whole slew of computers and theorizing that Pentiums evolved from 8086 machines when it's obvious that someone designed and created them.



I love it when you guys compare mechanical creations to biological systems. Wait a minute, my car didn't replace its own water pump, but I just had a cut heal. I'm so confused now...

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:13:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:


I'll accept evolutionary theiry to the degree it agrees with the written Word of God. Macro evolution over vast expanses of time is DIRECTLY contradictory to Scripture. ("The evening and the morning were the first day..." etc etc etc)



Christ was not created by God - He is very God of very God, as the thir4d person of the Trinity.





1)It contradicts an old testiment story that has been shown to have been adapted from earlier polytheistic stories from the Mesopatamina era. Somebody took a heathen story and dressed it up.

2)Oops, my mistake. *slaps forhead* Anyway, since Christs is god, and god isn't human, Christ can't be subject to evolution at all because he's god.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:14:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:18:19 PM EST by bvmjethead]

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Actually its a proven fact that there is a link between species, speciation has always been the weak point of the theory and were still looking for transitive forms.



Where is this proof of a link?

IF we evolved from apes how come we still have apes that are fully apes and humans that are fully humans but no half ape half humans running around?


Edited to say: It's not that I don't believe in and support evolution, things do change to fit the environment etc, BUT, I know man did not evolve from apes and nothing will change my mind.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:15:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:43:33 PM EST by DK-Prof]
I am also not going to bother to debate it, because experience has demonstrated to me that logic and reason cannot overcome willful ignorance.


Not WANTING to believe in something does not make it a lie - no matter how feverently someone might want it to be.

If someone has really compelling personal reasons for not wanting to believe in something (whether it is evolution, the moon-landing, or an airliner hitting the pentagon) that's fine. They can BELIEVE whatever they want.



As Socrates (supposedly) said: "The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance"
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:16:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By benbob:
People attempting to refute science hurt christianity.



When creationist deny natural selection they lose all credibility.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:18:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Actually its a proven fact that there is a link between species, speciation has always been the weak point of the theory and were still looking for transitive forms.



Where is this proof of a link?

IF we evolved from apes how come we still have apes that are fully apes and humans that are fully humans but no half ape half humans running around?



Why would we? What niche would they serve?
Depending on how hairy you think they were H. Neanderthals could of fit the bill you are looking for, but we killed them off.
We have almost killed off all the other apes too.
They occupied territory and forests we want, and they couldn't compete with us and our weapons.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:20:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
<snip>

IF we evolved from apes how come we still have apes that are fully apes and humans that are fully humans but no half ape half humans running around?

According to the theory, we evolved from a common ancestor of both apes and humans. If the theory was true, you would still never see apes evolve into humans, or half ape/ humans.

Hoppy8420
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:25:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:25:55 PM EST by Synister1]
Someday all the bible thumpers will die and then find out they were lied to.

When you die that's it - Game Over.

Religion was a means to control the masses at a time when a control was needed. It's just never stopped and now bad things happen in the name of religion.






Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:35:36 PM EST
1: Evolution of animals CAN exist in the context of the Bible IMHO. They weren't scientists way back then... so they did the best they could.

2: Humans are made in God's image. That's it. Kaput. There is no "missing link" * The Australiopithecus bones and Cro Magnon man and Lucy... They're essentially monkeys. Not us. I've read a lot of science magazines and journals... Not a one of them has convinced me that we are descendants of apes/chimps/mud puppies or whatever they say crawled out of the primordial ooze.

3: I like how smug some non believers become when we discuss Bible issues. There are some very intelligent people that believe in God. Einstein believed in God (read that in the new Discover issue on him). Hawking believes in God ("A Brief History of Time").

4: There are so many unanswered questions... Giants... The Flood... There's more, I just can't think of it right now.

5: God said it, I believe it, that about does it for me

God bless.

* Personal theory time. I think that there is a possibility that the reason there is no missing link... is that it was preempted by the Fall of Lucifer. Possible? I have no idea. I need to research that.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:36:16 PM EST
Creationists and evolutionist all agree this universe began with a blinding flash of light.

To believe it happened 10,000 years ago you have to believe God intentionally left overwhelming evidence to the contrary to deceive humanity.

What came before the flash is an interesting question, since there is no way to know. I believe there was a big crunch prior to the big bang, making creation eternal. I just like the symmetry, but if any overwhelming evidence to the contrary were presented my belief would be subject to it.

The notion of an omnipresent creator sitting on his hands so to speak for eternity, then creating the universe in six days, then sitting on his hands again fascinates me. Is He the creator? or was creation just a whim?

The genetic difference between a human and a chimpanzee is less than 2%, we are mammals. We are not the culmination of evolution, in all likelyhood we're an evolutionary deadend like the sabre-tooth, too successful to survive for long.

Genesis 1 is a remarkably accurate representation of the big bang and evolution, so much so that I do not believe it was written from ignorance, but rather it is likely the remnant of a technologically advanced society. Call it a parable inspired by God if you wish, it's as good a guess as any.

The belief that the universe was created 10,000 years ago for our benefit, that we are different than the other inhabitants of creation, that humanity is the centerpiece of creation made in the image of God himself and all creation exists as a background to provide us with a choice, that the choice is which religion is true, and that you made the right choice, is vanity.

Ego is right, it's pride unmatched, except maybe by the followers of the other branches of western religious tradition.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:39:42 PM EST
Nobody I know of believes the universe was created 10,000 years ago. That is lunacy.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible stating there are not other inhabited planets. They could be having the same exact conversation on "laser15.com".
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:45:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:
Nobody I know of believes the universe was created 10,000 years ago. That is lunacy.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible stating there are not other inhabited planets. They could be having the same exact conversation on "laser15.com".


It's a belief fostered by fundamentalism, and creationists.
Honestly, I don't have any idea what anybody I know thinks of how old the universe is, but I don't think any of them would object to the thought of the Earth being in the neighborhood of 4 billion years old.
Of course, now we'll find out who objects on this board.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:46:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:47:11 PM EST by jfrush]
I'm not very religious but evolution is not even logical.


Now I know micro-evolution exists, that is where one species changes some over time due to influences in environment etc... (For example people are taller now than in the past because of improved diets) But I'm talking about one species evolving from another.

The odds against DNA assembling by chance are 10 to the 40,000 power to one (Fred Hoyle, 1981).

That's the odds for one DNA strand to assemble. Now factor in the odds of it growing into a living organism, survivng, and spawning a whole planet of organisms that survive. All by chance?

"Natural Selection" cannot produce cross-species changes. And, without such changes, there can be no evolution. All the offspring produced in the plant and animal kingdom remain in the same species. Evolutionary theory requires change by random action alone. Yet, if even half those random changes were positive, the other half would have to be damaging.

How can total randomness select only that which is better and move only in advantageous directions?


Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:47:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:49:31 PM EST by GrH_Revelation]
I don't believe that there is evolution of the human species, although I do believe in the evolution of civilization and culture. Also, I do recognize the tendency for animals to adjust to their surroundings to more effectly co-exist. I find it highly improbable that through sequential epiphanies or the competition derived from co-existance, man has elevated himself from the state of a single celled organism to that of an intelligent being. I do, however, believe that man has developed his way of thinking through the acquisition of knowledge passed down throug the years. Man has evolved his way of thinking about science in such a way to create identifiable divisions between eras. And, although this progression of the intellect has changed mans outlook on life, I do not believe that it has created new or original theories about eternal values, principles, or morals. The ideas of Aristotle, Socrates, and Plato are still just as widely contemplated today as they were a 1500 years ago. Science will not define God nor will it define the scope of the meaning of life, this is why science, although pragmatic and the precursor of convenient technology, will never replace philosophy.

GRH - God's Right Hand - "Hold No Quarter. Feel No Remorse."
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:49:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By benbob:
People attempting to refute science hurt christianity.



Exactly right. It's a self-defeating tactic.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:49:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Nobody I know of believes the universe was created 10,000 years ago. That is lunacy.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible stating there are not other inhabited planets. They could be having the same exact conversation on "laser15.com".


It's a belief fostered by fundamentalism, and creationists.
Honestly, I don't have any idea what anybody I know thinks of how old the universe is, but I don't think any of them would object to the thought of the Earth being in the neighborhood of 4 billion years old.
Of course, now we'll find out who objects on this board.



I am a fundamentalist and a creationist.

I have no idea whatsoever how old the earth or the universe is. The Bible doesn't say, therefore it must not matter regarding my salvation.

I could take a guess, but it would be just like yours. A guess.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:50:31 PM EST
The disadvantaged don't survive.

Is there so much more difference between a chimpanzee and a human than say a chihuahua and a doberman? The canines have common ancestry, why not the hominids?
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:51:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:53:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:54:16 PM EST
I hate the lie of evolution because there is ZERO basis for it in fact, and MUCH evidence that directly contradicts it.

As for it's effect of Christianity, I'll leave that to others to argue, simply because I believe that Christianity deals with issues infinitely greater than what our own limited and oftentimes idiotic understanding of the physical universe is.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:55:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
If a human being just became, like creationism says happened why does a human share 95%+ of its genes with apes?




If we evolved from apes, Why are there still apes??
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:55:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1776:
Its a proven fact animals evolve. Humans are animals.



Really?

Please provide the proof, and an explanation why even avowed Darwinists admit the theory, THEORY, mind you, is rapidly falling apart around their ears....
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 21
Top Top