Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Posted: 9/4/2005 5:21:40 PM EDT
Seriously, I was raised Catholic but honestly have no idea what the difference between Catholics and Christians are. Until now I have not really made an effort to know the difference, because I didn't really care, but now curiosity has taken over. Educate me ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 7:51:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 7:54:41 PM EDT by mousehunter]
Have been trying to keep things strait with my future step daughter. Her mom and I are are both confirmed catholics, but her mom has been going to a Lutheran church for a while.

In my limited understanding, the prodestent reformation was an attemp to reform some of the many corruptions in the Catholic church at the time. Since then, the catholic church as undergone much of the refermation itself, but a few things still remain. Big difference that I see are intercession.

Prodest churches seem to focus more on bible study, with catholic churches being centered more arround mass and the priest's (churches) interpretation of scripture. Likewise, the sacrament of reconcilation is performed via a priest (conffession and forgiveness of sins), where at lutheran churches I have gone to have had a group reconciliation without the one on one confession.

Likewise Catholics ask for saints to interceed for them. They believe that the saints can either help us to live a life more like christs, or help communicate our needs to god. Chatolics pray for help and intercession from saints and the virgin Mary - where as I have only seen prodestent churches pray dirrecly to God/Jesus.

Oh, from what I remember - Chatolic means "One" It infers a Unified Christian Church.
Anyway, these are just some of my humble observations. I do not want to claim anygroup is better than the other. I tend to be a Caffitera Catholic. Within the Catholic Church there are quite a few variations of view points. The one I have felt the most comforatable with is Paulist - which is probably the closest to Lutheran - where as my finace went to a Missiouri Senate Lutheran church (which is the Lutheran church closest to Catholic) so basically we came to see many things quite simularly - through different directions.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:04:45 PM EDT
The biggest difference that all others hinge on is one of authority and apostolic succession. Did Jesus pass on the Deposit of Faith (all that we must believe to attain salvation) to Peter and the apostles, giving them authority that He did not give to all people? If you answer "yes," then you may as well join the Catholic Church if you're not already.

If you answer "no," then you are a Protestant, which means you may belong to one of 10,000+ ecclesial communities (read: denominations) who see the Holy Spirit telling them directly what the truth is. With so many different interpretations (all claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit even though some contradict each other), there are some things that they all agree on. Faith alone and Scripture alone. It's such a large group of differing, yet mostly agreeing groups, especially with all the "non-denominational" denominations that it's much easier to simply say "I'm a christian" without having to go into too much detail what you believe.

The Catholic Church rejected the concepts of Faith Alone and Scripture Alone (sola fide and sola scriptura) when proposed by Martin Luther, as the Church understands (as Christians have since the time of Christ) that the entire Deposit of Faith was given to us through Sacred Tradition: written (the bible) and oral (handed down by word of mouth, instruction, etc.). The Catholic Church rejected the idea of faith alone and held fast to the unchanging teaching that one must believe, but one must also live out that faith in love by doing good works. Believing isn't enough, as James says in his epistle, for "even the demons believe," but one must do good works in faith. Good works on their own won't do squat for you, but not putting your faith into action isn't going to cut it either.

In a nutshell, though, it all boils down to authority. Who has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture, and who has the final say on what Jesus taught us? If you accept the teaching that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (a sign of authority) and the power to bind and loose (another sign of authority), and that Peter and the apostles passed on their authority to others who succeeded them (apostolic succession) so that all we are taught about Jesus remains faithful to what He handed on to the apostles, then you would be a Catholic.

If you reject that Peter and the apostles were given such authority by Jesus, and thus you can interpret the Scriptures for yourself and be convinced that your interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit, and if you reject apostolic succession, and hold to Faith Alone and Scripture Alone, then you would be a Protestant. With so many different ecclesial groups being so similar yet so different from each other, it's easier to be called a Christian.


That's it in a very, very, very brief nutshell.



oh, and Catholic = Universal (for all people). term used in writing around 100 AD to refer to the Church, and it was done in an offhand way as if it were taken for granted that the reader knew what was meant.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:15:26 PM EDT
Christians are those that accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the one path to Redemption and Heaven. They hold the New Testament to be sacred texts. There are three main divisions of Christianity, those being Catholicism, the Orthodox Churches, and the Protestant (from the word protest) denominations. The Protestants are the newest of the three, as well as the most common in the US. There are, however, 1 billion Catholics worldwide.



Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:35:26 PM EDT
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:02:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



I don't think that's quite right for all denominations. Unless by "holy trinity" you mean something other than "father, son, and holy ghost".

In the three churches I was raised in (Universal Church of Christ, Presbyterian, and United Methodist), prayers and worship were directed to god, who was recognized as being the father, son, and holy ghost (the holy trinity). There was no praying to saints, mary, or anyone/anything else.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:16:42 PM EDT
Well, from a life long practicing and Catholic school educated Catholic, I will give you the very short version.

A Catholic IS a Christian. Christians live, worship, and devote their lives to Christ/God. Catholics are within the group called Christians. However, not every Christian is a Catholic. If you understand math, you should understand what I wrote. Catholic believe and do certain things that not every Christian does.

Asking the difference between a Catholic and Christian is like asking the differerence between the Irish and a European or Japanese and Asian.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:17:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



I know people of may Christian faiths that would completely disagree with you.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:59:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



I know people of may Christian faiths that would completely disagree with you.




I bet they would, but the son the father and the holy ghost is a trinity
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 10:50:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



I know people of may Christian faiths that would completely disagree with you.




I bet they would, but the son the father and the holy ghost is a trinity




By your definition, Baptists are not Christians, but are Catholics, as are Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Evangelicals. They're not, but you completely oversimplify things. This website will show you whether the main religions believe in the trinity.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 10:56:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 10:57:35 PM EDT by PBIR]
Catholics are Christians. Do you mean "What is the difference between Catholics and other Christians"?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:59:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 5:34:18 AM EDT by ZitiForBreakfast]

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



As a Christian of a 'non denominational' Church....

I believe that there is only one living and true God, that He eternally exists in three persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that each of these persons is fully God, and that they are equal in every divine attribute and perfection. Each person of the Trinity executes distinct but complementary offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption.

I also believe that there is no other way into heaven than through Jesus.

So I tend to dissagree with that.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:46:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



Spoken as one who has an opinion, but hasn't done his homework.

Protestant churches believe in the Triune God.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:51:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



That's not true at all
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:58:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



As a Christian of a 'non denominational' Church....

I believe that there is only one living and true God, that He eternally exists in three persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that each of these persons is fully God, and that they are equal in every divine attribute and perfection. Each person of the Trinity executes distinct but complementary offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption.

I also believe that there is no other way into heaven than through Jesus.

So I tend to dissagree with that.



+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:01:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By loonybin:
The biggest difference that all others hinge on is one of authority and apostolic succession. Did Jesus pass on the Deposit of Faith (all that we must believe to attain salvation) to Peter and the apostles, giving them authority that He did not give to all people? If you answer "yes," then you may as well join the Catholic Church if you're not already.

If you answer "no," then you are a Protestant, which means you may belong to one of 10,000+ ecclesial communities (read: denominations) who see the Holy Spirit telling them directly what the truth is. With so many different interpretations (all claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit even though some contradict each other), there are some things that they all agree on. Faith alone and Scripture alone. It's such a large group of differing, yet mostly agreeing groups, especially with all the "non-denominational" denominations that it's much easier to simply say "I'm a christian" without having to go into too much detail what you believe.



That is not correct. There are MANY Protestant chruches that still believe in and practice
Apostolic Succession. Most Anglican churches subscribe to this.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:02:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
christians worship only Christ, catholics worship the holy trinity



I know people of may Christian faiths that would completely disagree with you.




I bet they would, but the son the father and the holy ghost is a trinity



And you would still be so wrong it's almost ridiculous in your first statement.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:31:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:


+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty




Do Catholics pray to Mary or through Mary?

Shok
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:35:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:


+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty




Do Catholics pray to Mary or through Mary?

Shok



Through. You ask for Her intercession on your behalf, you do not pray TO anyone except God.
FYI, Roman Catholics are not the only folks doing this. The Hail Mary is a prayer used
in many Protestant faiths as well, including Anglican again. Any church that plays the song
Ave Maria is included in this.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:37:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:


+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty




Do Catholics pray to Mary or through Mary?

Shok



Through. You ask for Her intercession on your behalf, you do not pray TO anyone except God.
FYI, Roman Catholics are not the only folks doing this. The Hail Mary is a prayer used
in many Protestant faiths as well, including Anglican again. Any church that plays the song
Ave Maria is included in this.




Where is the concept of praying through saints or Mary found in the bible?

Shok
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:43:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 6:44:32 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:


+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty




Do Catholics pray to Mary or through Mary?

Shok



Through. You ask for Her intercession on your behalf, you do not pray TO anyone except God.
FYI, Roman Catholics are not the only folks doing this. The Hail Mary is a prayer used
in many Protestant faiths as well, including Anglican again. Any church that plays the song
Ave Maria is included in this.




Where is the concept of praying through saints or Mary found in the bible?

Shok



Where is the concept of going onto Arfcom and asking other members to pray for you found in the
Bible? It's the same thing. Ever ask someone else to pray for you? That's all it is.
Some folks believe that Saints have "better access" but that's not actually a tenet of
Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism.


The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3).
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:52:19 AM EDT
Praying for and praying to are way different....
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:55:36 AM EDT
Bona fide question- not trolling.

Isn't that contacting the dead?

The Bible does have something to say about that.

Is that contact allowed frmo the other side? cf. the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:56:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:


+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty




Do Catholics pray to Mary or through Mary?

Shok



Through. You ask for Her intercession on your behalf, you do not pray TO anyone except God.
FYI, Roman Catholics are not the only folks doing this. The Hail Mary is a prayer used
in many Protestant faiths as well, including Anglican again. Any church that plays the song
Ave Maria is included in this.




Where is the concept of praying through saints or Mary found in the bible?

Shok



Where is the concept of going onto Arfcom and asking other members to pray for you found in the
Bible? It's the same thing. Ever ask someone else to pray for you? That's all it is.
Some folks believe that Saints have "better access" but that's not actually a tenet of
Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism.


The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3).





    Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.



You're absolutely correct on the verses you mentioned. However in every instance both parties are praying to God for one another. I can't find in the bible where someone prayed through anyone in Heaven other than Jesus. Only Jesus "maketh intercession for us".


    Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.



Shok
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:05:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 7:06:18 AM EDT by pattymcn]

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:


+1 I'm Catholic. Catholics do have the option to pray through Saints [not too] for small stuff [lost keys etc] but I personally follow Christ's example and pray directly to God through Christ [Dear Heavenly Father - In Jesus' name I pray].

Patty




Do Catholics pray to Mary or through Mary?

Shok



Through. You ask for Her intercession on your behalf, you do not pray TO anyone except God.
FYI, Roman Catholics are not the only folks doing this. The Hail Mary is a prayer used
in many Protestant faiths as well, including Anglican again. Any church that plays the song
Ave Maria is included in this.



Very true. One must remember just because its common practice [or seems/preceived to be] doesn't mean its actual Catholic doctrine. The church does teach people to intercede through the Saints on their behalf. For an example, Dear Mother of God [ie Mary] Please ask Heavenly Father to bless me during my upcoming surgery. Your obedient daughter, Patty.

Personally I never cared for the practice and most likely becasue it was crammed down my throat by nuns who really shouldn't have been teaching children. Now that I am an adult I have read what is the Catholic Doctrine. I believe any follower of any organized religion should.

Patty

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:10:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 7:14:46 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By QShok:


You're absolutely correct on the verses you mentioned. However in every instance both parties are praying to God for one another. I can't find in the bible where someone prayed through anyone in Heaven other than Jesus. Only Jesus "maketh intercession for us".

Shok



Right. Again, what's the difference in asking me to pray for you or asking your dead Great-Grandmother
to pray for you?

I think you're barking up a tree with nothing in it here.

I am not Roman Catholic, but they always cover themselves with this scripture, which
pretty much gives lots of leeway if you believe in Apostolic Succession.

From Matthew 16:


"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


Now, that's the one the Roman Catholics always quote, but it needs to be taken in context.
Anglicans and lots of other Protestants believe in Apostolic Succession, but we believe
that does NOT mean just Paul, it can be any of the 12. Here is the whole thing,
that the Roman Catholics don't usually quote:


"Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you [emphasizing that this is at least the second time He has given them this charge], that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where TWO or THREE are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:18-20).


So, in context it seems that there IS support for Apostolic Succession, but it can be
ANY time at least 2 or 3 of the 12 agree. Roman Catholics take it to mean
that ONLY Paul is subject to this.

So basically if Paul said that donuts were Holy Relics, then Heaven would be bound
to agree. The Popes have used this as license to do what they want for a very long time,
and that one line is the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church.

Personally I don't see a problem with asking Mary to pray for me than asking my
dead grandmother to pray for me, I just don't think that prayers from Mary for me
get any MORE attention than prayers from my dead-grandmother for me, or
someone on Arfcoms prayers for me.


I personally have MANY problems with the Roman Catholic Church, but asking Mary
to pray for others is not one.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:19:28 AM EDT
Very little of what the pope recommends is actually written in doctrine. I again recommend any Catholic to read and study the bible and to study the doctrine of their church. For what is most important is [I don't have the exact scripture memorized] The only way to the Father is through me Jesus. I would think that as long as you followed God's commandments, asked for forgiveness and forgave those who trespassed against you then you'd be good to go.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:28:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
Very little of what the pope recommends is actually written in doctrine. I again recommend any Catholic to read and study the bible and to study the doctrine of their church. For what is most important is [I don't have the exact scripture memorized] The only way to the Father is through me Jesus. I would think that as long as you followed God's commandments, asked for forgiveness and forgave those who trespassed against you then you'd be good to go.

Patty



Sounds easy, but Christ DID make that statement to the 12 that they could make rules
and He would abide by them. Maybe it was a test for them, who knows. He DID say
it and it's caused no end of grief over the centuries.

Because of that, anything the Pope says IS doctrine unfortunately. That's the main cause
of the Protestant Reformation, the argument that the Pope had gone way too far with it.
None of the Reformers actually argued AGAINST Apostolic Succession, just that the Popes
had gone wacko here and there.


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:34:14 AM EDT
Well one has to understand that all men are faliable. I think history written from the protestant venue has been greatly falsified [although who's to say Catholic History is 100% true either?] It still goes to say that we are all responsible for our actions and should not blindly follow anyone. Even God doesn't ask for that.

Patty PS I do agree with your interpretation of the scripture.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:56:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Sounds easy, but Christ DID make that statement to the 12 that they could make rules
and He would abide by them. Maybe it was a test for them, who knows. He DID say
it and it's caused no end of grief over the centuries.



Care to provide chapter and verse? I seem to have missed that passage. Please educate me.


Because of that, anything the Pope says IS doctrine unfortunately. That's the main cause
of the Protestant Reformation, the argument that the Pope had gone way too far with it.
None of the Reformers actually argued AGAINST Apostolic Succession, just that the Popes
had gone wacko here and there
.




There was quite a bit more to it than that.

And when the pope speaks, it is generally considered to be ex cathedra, unquestioned, with the authority of God Himself behind it. That is one of the reasons the RCC clergy was annoyed at those pesky reformers reading the Bible for themselves.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:58:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 8:00:07 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Care to provide chapter and verse? I seem to have missed that passage. Please educate me.



Posted in my previous post, bottom of page 1 I believe. Matthew 18:18-20.

The Roman Catholics may have given that quote more power than it possibly
deserved, but Christ DID say it.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 8:31:10 AM EDT
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."


I think we have a difference of interpretation here.

This passage refers to the power of prayer and the power of unity among believers.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 8:32:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."


I think we have a difference of interpretation here.

This passage refers to the power of prayer and the power of unity among believers.



Well, millions of Catholics and Protestants over the years have interpreted it the other way.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:01:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Well, millions of Catholics and Protestants over the years have interpreted it the other way.



Based on my experiences inside Protestant churches over the past 20 years, I'd say the way I understand it is the interpretation held by the majority of folks on my side of the C/P fence.

I have never heard it used as justification for the church leadership making up rules as they go.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:01:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 9:03:08 AM EDT by FMD]
Darnit all, I'm always pulled into the hijack!


Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
This passage refers to the power of prayer and the power of unity among believers.


Well, millions of Catholics and Protestants over the years have interpreted it the other way.



I say you're both right (sort of)! [gauntlet thrown]

Context is key here:


15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.



When I look at veses 18-20, I see Jesus talking about church (little "c") administration [see verses 15-17], however that governance doesn't point to apostolic succession, rather it points to the interaction of believers, and the authority of God's Church (big "c") over their disputes [verses 20-21].
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:05:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 9:25:50 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Well, millions of Catholics and Protestants over the years have interpreted it the other way.



Based on my experiences inside Protestant churches over the past 20 years, I'd say the way I understand it is the interpretation held by the majority of folks on my side of the C/P fence.

I have never heard it used as justification for the church leadership making up rules as they go.



I never said that it was OK to make up rules as you go, I said that scripture was the
provenance for a belief in Apostolic Succession, among others. Only the Roman Catholics
use it as an excuse to make things up, but many Protestant Churches use it for the
same authority, mainly those that belive in Apostolic Succession.

This one always pisses people off, but it's part of the ongoing debate amongst Protestants.
It generally comes down to the fact that churches that CAN trace a lineage back to one of the
12 support Apostolic Succession, and the ones that CAN'T trace a line back to the 12
of course don't think it makes any difference.

Anglican churches certainly do, and some Lutherans. There are others as well. These churches
use this piece of scripture to give justification as to their authority to do business on
Christs' behalf.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:30:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

This one always pisses people off, but it's part of the ongoing debate amongst Protestants.
It generally comes down to the fact that churches that CAN trace a lineage back to one of the
12 support Apostolic Succession, and the ones that CAN'T trace a line back to the 12
of course don't think it makes any difference.




There is a difference between tracing a line of succession and contemporary authority being true to what was at the beginning.

Over the centuries many pagan traditions have been added to the practices of the church. These traditions are observed by both Catholic and Protestant, to varying degrees.

There is much in the church at large today that bears little or no resemblance to the original, first century church.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:33:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

This one always pisses people off, but it's part of the ongoing debate amongst Protestants.
It generally comes down to the fact that churches that CAN trace a lineage back to one of the
12 support Apostolic Succession, and the ones that CAN'T trace a line back to the 12
of course don't think it makes any difference.




There is a difference between tracing a line of succession and contemporary authority being true to what was at the beginning.

Over the centuries many pagan traditions have been added to the practices of the church. These traditions are observed by both Catholic and Protestant, to varying degrees.

There is much in the church at large today that bears little or no resemblance to the original, first century church.



Won't argue with you there, actually didn't intend to argue with you at all
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:48:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Won't argue with you there, actually didn't intend to argue with you at all



Were we arguing?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:21:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

This one always pisses people off, but it's part of the ongoing debate amongst Protestants.
It generally comes down to the fact that churches that CAN trace a lineage back to one of the
12 support Apostolic Succession, and the ones that CAN'T trace a line back to the 12
of course don't think it makes any difference.

Anglican churches certainly do, and some Lutherans. There are others as well.



TexasSIG,

Thanks, bud. I appreciate that.

viator
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:26:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By viator:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

This one always pisses people off, but it's part of the ongoing debate amongst Protestants.
It generally comes down to the fact that churches that CAN trace a lineage back to one of the
12 support Apostolic Succession, and the ones that CAN'T trace a line back to the 12
of course don't think it makes any difference.

Anglican churches certainly do, and some Lutherans. There are others as well.



TexasSIG,

Thanks, bud. I appreciate that.

viator



Well, we talked about that one before I think, and you corrected me very well if I remember
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:36:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Catholics are Christians. Do you mean "What is the difference between Catholics and other Christians"?



I always knew that Christians and Catholics were tied together in some way but never really cared enough to look into the differences.

So, I have pretty much always been in some form of conflict with the Catholic Church. Weather it is from my true beliefs or beliefs instilled upon me by my father (who was raised a 7th Day Adventist, but converted to Catholicism when he married my mom), I’m not sure. The way I am interpreting what you guys are saying is that the major difference between the two sects is that Christians believe that the only way into heaven is through Jesus himself, correct? While Catholics believe that you can get in through other ways, and also believe in praying to Saints and the Pope.

Ok, so these are things that I believe and always have. I do not believe that the words spoken by the Pope are the word of God, the Pope is just another man. I believe that confessing your sins to a priest is well, stupid and that he can not absolve you of your sins, and that you must confess directly to God (Again, the priest is just another man).

So, with these beliefs, should I be looking into finding some form of Christian Church near me?

Oh yeah, in case anyone was wondering, the reason I asked all this in the first place was because I have really gotten into a slump of just inactivity with my church. I go to make my mom happy, but I don’t sing, pray, and generally don’t pay attention at mass. I believe this is because well, I just have come to the point in my life where I can say, I do not believe what you are saying and you’re wrong.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:51:48 AM EDT
I don't mean this to be offensive, it's just my take on Catholics.

First, I was raised Mormon, but I haven't actually been a practicing Mormon for a long-long time. I have been in many different churches and seen their services and just the general atmosphere.

The Catholic Church has always seemed kinda Dark to me, kinda Death Cultish. Most other churches seem to give Huge respect and importance to the sacrifice made on the cross, but their worship seems to be more centered around the resurrection, so there is a very hopeful, bright feeling. The Catholic Church though seems to be completely centered on the Cross and Christs death. All the imagery and worship just seems centered around death and darkness.

Like I said, I'm not bashing, just discussing, and maybe my view of the Catholic Church is this way because most of my experience with it has been in very Latino (Mexican) congregations which seems to also get some Uber bizarre saint worship/Santeria stuff going also.

Am I just getting the wrong picture or is it really that dark and gloomy?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:53:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:55:10 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
While Catholics believe that you can get in through other ways, and also believe in praying to Saints and the Pope.

Ok, so these are things that I believe and always have. I do not believe that the words spoken by the Pope are the word of God, the Pope is just another man. I believe that confessing your sins to a priest is well, stupid and that he can not absolve you of your sins, and that you must confess directly to God (Again, the priest is just another man).





Guess what. You are a Protestant Those things were the foundation of the Reformation.
Seriously. Read up on Lutherans and Episcopals. You'll be more likely to find a Lutheran
church around you though.....
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:58:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:


Am I just getting the wrong picture or is it really that dark and gloomy?



Yes, portions are dark and gloomy.

The biggest part of the Roman Church's history though, the Church was the political
as well as religious head. The people were uneducated, and the Mass itself was
delivered in Latin so the common man could not interpret it.

The doom and gloom thing was an example of the use of fear to control
and lead people. Most of that has lightened up over the years, but you
do still see a lot of the "blood culture" of Mexico and Central American mixed
in with Catholicism.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:15:56 AM EDT
Wow. there's so much here that is incorrect, I don't really know where to start.


Because of that, anything the Pope says IS doctrine unfortunately.


That is sooooo incorrect. There are several levels of authority in the Church: dogma, doctrine, disciplines, and practice.

The Pope very often states doctrine, but that doesn't mean every word out of his mouth is doctrine. He can make a statement on Church discipline and even change that,such as changing the pre-Communion fast from starting at midnight to starting one our before receiving Communion. It was never a doctrine to begin with, so it could be changed. Just because the pope says it doesn't make it doctrine. This is where so many misunderstand when they claim that the Catholic Church has changed doctrine over the years. The Catholic Church has never changed doctrine, but disciplines and practices have changed a lot.



And when the pope speaks, it is generally considered to be ex cathedra, unquestioned, with the authority of God Himself behind it. That is one of the reasons the RCC clergy was annoyed at those pesky reformers reading the Bible for themselves.


There have been two ex cathedra statements in 2,000 years: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary. There have been many doctrinal and dogmatic statments, but only two ex cathedra statements.



From Matthew 16:

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Now, that's the one the Roman Catholics always quote, but it needs to be taken in context.
Anglicans and lots of other Protestants believe in Apostolic Succession, but we believe
that does NOT mean just Paul, it can be any of the 12. Here is the whole thing,
that the Roman Catholics don't usually quote:

"Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you [emphasizing that this is at least the second time He has given them this charge], that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where TWO or THREE are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:18-20).

So, in context it seems that there IS support for Apostolic Succession, but it can be
ANY time at least 2 or 3 of the 12 agree. Roman Catholics take it to mean
that ONLY PaulPeter is subject to this.



Jumping between chapters like that takes things out of context. Why didn't you quote all of Matthew 16 instead of jumping to Matthew 18 to proof text? That passage speaks of the other apostles having the authority to bind and loose, but only in the realm of excommunication (that is what the passage is about, after all). Here's all of the Matthew 16 passage:


And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.


When Jesus' words are taken in context to the other passages that refer to Peter's role, Jesus was clearly giving special authority to Peter above all the other apostles, as evidenced by his name change (the only apostle to have his name changed, which was a very significant thing to the Hebrews). The other apostles also have authority, when they are in union with the successor of Peter. No requirement is given that Peter must be in union with the others. This specific passage shows Jesus referring back to Isaiah 22:15-25 and the authority given to one man over others.



So basically if PaulPeter said that donuts were Holy Relics, then Heaven would be bound to agree.


Using an absurdity does not prove your point.


The Popes have used this as license to do what they want for a very long time


Popes are still sinful human beings and able to abuse the power that God bestowed upon their office. It doesn't mean the office is false or doesn't exist, it means that pope is abusing his power.


that one line is the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church.


No, that entire passage, taken in context with many other passages of Sacred Scripture (scroll down to the section on the papacy), plus the understanding of the early Christians as witnessed in their writings (as early as 110AD, a mere 80 years after Jesus ascended), plus the understanding of how Catholicism is the completion/fulfillment of Judaism and how authority was set forth by God (ever heard of Moses' seat?) is the foundation of the Catholic Church.


I strongly encourage you to read the writings of the early Christians (called the Patristic writings) from the first 7 centuries, and you will see which church resembles what the early writers took for granted that everyone believed.


Originally Posted By TesasSIG:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

I think we have a difference of interpretation here.

This passage refers to the power of prayer and the power of unity among believers.




Well, millions of Catholics and Protestants over the years have interpreted it the other way.



And that gets back to the whole point I was making about authority. What matters is who has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture. If anyone has the authority to interpret the Bible they way they want, then you end up with Protestantism, in all 10,000+ variations of it, all claiming to be "Bible-only" and all claiming to be right, but contradicting each other on even essential matters of salvation. If Jesus did give Peter and the apostles in union with him (and their successors in union with his successor) authority, then it's irrelevant what "millions of Catholics and Protestants over the years" have interpreted. What matters, then, is what the Catholic Church officially interprets Scripture passages to mean. After all, who gave us the Bible, as it is now compiled, that Protestants love to quote to "prove" the Catholic Church is wrong? (Hint: the Catholic Church)

If I had the money for a membership, I'd use this as my sig line:
‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ ~ St. Augustine
(Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6)
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:27:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 11:29:59 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By loonybin:

A bunch of stuff.....



Like most Roman Catholics, you are so convinced that you are right, that you rarely
hear what others are saying. The reformers never intended to start a new Church,
but the Popes during the various attempts at reformation were so power hungry
and involved in politics and corruption that the "reformation" was a threat
to their power, and had to be stopped at any cost.

Little that has come out of Rome since has made any sense.

There are more catholic churches than the one seated in Rome my friend,
and I'd argue that the others have more right to call themselves
catholic than the one in Rome due to their behavior and treatment of
their fellow men.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 12:00:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
The way I am interpreting what you guys are saying is that the major difference between the two sects is that Christians believe that the only way into heaven is through Jesus himself, correct?



Correct.


While Catholics believe that you can get in through other ways


NO, NO, NO!!!!! The only way to Heaven is through Jesus. After all, He's the one that said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by me." The difference is in how does one get to Jesus? Did he found a Church, or do we just read the Bible that the Catholic Church compiled any way we want and say the "sinner's prayer" you hear so often (but doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture), and then we're golden? That is what's at issue here.


Oh yeah, in case anyone was wondering, the reason I asked all this in the first place was because I have really gotten into a slump of just inactivity with my church. I go to make my mom happy, but I don’t sing, pray, and generally don’t pay attention at mass. I believe this is because well, I just have come to the point in my life where I can say, I do not believe what you are saying and you’re wrong.


To say you don't believe it is one thing, but just what authority do you have to say that the Church is wrong? That's the whole point of this discussion. If you choose to be inactive in the Church and don't pay attention, then no wonder you don't agree and want to go somewhere else. If you don't put anything into going to Mass, you won't get anything out of it, for the most part. You'll receive the Eucharist, but you aren't taking advantage of the grace that comes with that. If you're going to Mass to be entertained, you're going for the wrong reasons. We go to Mass to give God the worship and adoration that he deserves, and to partake in His Body and Blood because he told us to. If you don't believe that the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Jesus, then you are functionally Protestant already. If you do believe, then there is nowhere else to go. Of course, if you don't, do you not believe it because you've studied the issue, or because you really don't know what the Church teaches?

If you're like most Catholics, you haven't been properly educated on what the Catholic Church is and what she teaches (and even if you went to a Catholic school, you probably haven't been), so just what would you be leaving for if you don't know what it is you're leaving? Learn what the Church teaches and why before you decide to go somewhere else.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 12:25:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By loonybin:


Oh yeah, in case anyone was wondering, the reason I asked all this in the first place was because I have really gotten into a slump of just inactivity with my church. I go to make my mom happy, but I don’t sing, pray, and generally don’t pay attention at mass. I believe this is because well, I just have come to the point in my life where I can say, I do not believe what you are saying and you’re wrong.


To say you don't believe it is one thing, but just what authority do you have to say that the Church is wrong? That's the whole point of this discussion.



Perhaps my choice to use the word "wrong" was inappropriate. I was not saying that what the Catholic Church teaches is wrong but rather that what I have been hearing in in the Church does not necessarily go along with what I now believe.


If you choose to be inactive in the Church and don't pay attention, then no wonder you don't agree and want to go somewhere else. If you don't put anything into going to Mass, you won't get anything out of it, for the most part. You'll receive the Eucharist, but you aren't taking advantage of the grace that comes with that. If you're going to Mass to be entertained, you're going for the wrong reasons. We go to Mass to give God the worship and adoration that he deserves, and to partake in His Body and Blood because he told us to. If you don't believe that the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Jesus, then you are functionally Protestant already. If you do believe, then there is nowhere else to go. Of course, if you don't, do you not believe it because you've studied the issue, or because you really don't know what the Church teaches?


I have been an active member of my church in the past. I took 10 years of religion class. I have been confirmed. In the past I have been very active and participatory in masses. However, recently, over the past year or so, I have really begun to question weather or not I'm in the right church. As I said before I don’t believe that the word of the Pope is to be taken as the word of God. I also don't believe in confession of sins to a priest. I have reluctantly done these things in the past (Because my mom was very active in the church, a religion teacher and someone who spent much of her time helping the church community), but now, I'm to the point where I'm thinking maybe I should be looking for someplace else to worship. Simply because of my different beliefs. But, I have been unsure of the beliefs of the different religions and the Catholic vs. Christian definition. I still do believe in God and that Jesus was sent to die for our sins and that he is our path to salvation, but I do not see my beliefs represented in the church that I go to now.




If you're like most Catholics, you haven't been properly educated on what the Catholic Church is and what she teaches (and even if you went to a Catholic school, you probably haven't been), so just what would you be leaving for if you don't know what it is you're leaving? Learn what the Church teaches and why before you decide to go somewhere else.


That’s why I'm here asking questions. I agree that I am very uneducated when it comes to religion and do not even know much about my own religion. Therefore, I ask questions on ARFCOM. I do not see ARFCOM as the definitive source on religion, but I came to this forum to get varying perspectives and answers. If I went to my priest, I would get one side of the story, If I went to a different church, I would get another. Here I get a little bit of everything.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 12:26:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
The way I am interpreting what you guys are saying is that the major difference between the two sects is that Christians believe that the only way into heaven is through Jesus himself, correct? While Catholics believe that you can get in through other ways, and also believe in praying to Saints and the Pope.




Horse hockey. You're interpretation is based on Protestant views of the Catholic Church and Catholicism.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 12:29:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
I believe that confessing your sins to a priest is well, stupid and that he can not absolve you of your sins, and that you must confess directly to God (Again, the priest is just another man).




Confessing your sins to another is scriptural. Absolution is granted by a priest, sins are forgiven by God. This is also scriptural, regardless of your personal beliefs.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Top Top