Did anyone see the History Channel special on how Saddam rose to power? The short version is that he managed to get himself in charge of the government police. Then, one day he took his most loyal guys and surrounded the parliament while it was in session. He sat down in front of the group, laughing and smoking a cigar and started asking who the traitors were.

Then, when someone named a "traitor" his guys took them out in the hall and shot them. He videotaped the whole thing, and you can see the whole thing unfold. Lawmakers pissing in their pants waiting for their names to be called. People being dragged out and then you hear the shots. All the while Saddam puffs on his cigar and laughs and jokes.

That was the end of any government in Iraq but Saddam.

So let's say the grand plan for Iraq works out just perfectly. The insurgency stops tomorrow, and all these various factions who have hated each other for the last thousand years or so make nice and get together on a constitution. Everything is peaches and cream, the troops are home and the oil is flowing so well that gas is down to a buck a gallon again.

So what would stop another Saddam from coming along and pulling the same trick again?  What would we do if someone did?

Quoted: The insurgency stops tomorrow, and all these various factions who have hated each other for the last thousand years or so make nice and get together on a constitution. Everything is peaches and cream, the troops are home and the oil is flowing so well that gas is down to a buck a gallon again.

unrealistic , atleast for awhile. And Im sure well take the proper steps to make sure it doesnt happen again. Ill bet their new leader will be very good friends with the US. Anyone else think our government may influence who gets put into power in Iraqi? Once the job is completed I dont think were going to take any chances in letting it happen again.

Hopefully the civilians that we have now empowered.

I can honestly say, I just don't understand the mindset of people who will not stand up for  themselves.

Yes - I know it's easy for me to say because I have never had to face it here in the USA, but come on.........  I feel pretty confident that me and my AR would be talking if shit like that was happening here.

That's pretty much a typical coup. There will be plenty more in the history of mankind.

That's what the 2nd amendment is all about  

Quoted: Hopefully the civilians that we have now empowered. I can honestly say, I just don't understand the mindset of people who will not stand up for  themselves. Yes - I know it's easy for me to say because I have never had to face it here in the USA, but come on.........  I feel pretty confident that me and my AR would be talking if shit like that was happening here.

There are only about 25 million people there. Saddam had a fair number of them on his side because they came from his own tribe and quickly assembled an overwhelming force. There were people who resisted. They wound up in mass graves.

In short, there is nothing to stop any government from doing just that, apart from a constitution.  Even a constitution must be honored and upheld by the people that work within the government and it's citizens.  Hitler rose to power through a democratic election.  He siezed power through legal means spelled out in the constitution, ie: emergency police powers.  

Only through constant vigilance of the people will tyranny be prevented or destroyed.

Quoted: unrealistic , atleast for awhile.

I am assuming, for the sake of argument, an absolutely perfect outcome. Obviously, the outcome won't be perfect.

And Im sure well take the proper steps to make sure it doesnt happen again. Ill bet their new leader will be very good friends with the US. Anyone else think our government may influence who gets put into power in Iraqi? Once the job is completed I dont think were going to take any chances in letting it happen again.

So what could we do to stop it?

Quoted: In short, there is nothing to stop any government from doing just that, apart from a constitution.  Even a constitution must be honored and upheld by the people that work within the government and it's citizens.  Hitler rose to power through a democratic election.  He siezed power through legal means spelled out in the constitution, ie: emergency police powers.   Only through constant vigilance of the people will tyranny be prevented or destroyed.

So you are saying that we could be doing this same Iraqi invasion again in another ten years or so?

Quoted: Did anyone see the History Channel special on how Saddam rose to power? The short version is that he managed to get himself in charge of the government police. Then, one day he took his most loyal guys and surrounded the parliament while it was in session. He sat down in front of the group, laughing and smoking a cigar and started asking who the traitors were. Then, when someone named a "traitor" his guys took them out in the hall and shot them. He videotaped the whole thing, and you can see the whole thing unfold. Lawmakers pissing in their pants waiting for their names to be called. People being dragged out and then you hear the shots. All the while Saddam puffs on his cigar and laughs and jokes. That was the end of any government in Iraq but Saddam.

I saw that same footage. Chilling, to say the least.

I imagine Us SOF will be enroute to iraq at the first possible sign of trouble.

For the next few years, the US Army, US Marine Corps, US Air Force and US Navy will assure that doesn't happen. We already saw Al Sadr get froggy and jump with his militia, trying to do just that. But you saw what happened to him. His militia became cannon fodder and he became irrelevent.

Ultimately, the fate of Iraq rests in the hands of the Iraqis. They have lived under a dictator long enough to know what that is. The majority of Iraqis don't want that. The fact that thousands continue to flock to recruiting centers to sign up for the Iraqi police and military is evidence of this, in spite of being targeted by the terrorists. These people believe in what we are trying to do. There is some dissention obviously, but the majority are on our side.

Iraq isn't and never will be a mini-America. Their culture is too different. But with a little luck, it will become one of the more open minded and free societies in that area of the world. And that alone is an accomplishment. I truly believe it will happen. It's going to take some time and more blood, sweat and tears to get there. But it can and I do believe will happen. That's a noble undertaking worthy of our support.

Quoted: Quoted: Did anyone see the History Channel special on how Saddam rose to power? The short version is that he managed to get himself in charge of the government police. Then, one day he took his most loyal guys and surrounded the parliament while it was in session. He sat down in front of the group, laughing and smoking a cigar and started asking who the traitors were. Then, when someone named a "traitor" his guys took them out in the hall and shot them. He videotaped the whole thing, and you can see the whole thing unfold. Lawmakers pissing in their pants waiting for their names to be called. People being dragged out and then you hear the shots. All the while Saddam puffs on his cigar and laughs and jokes. That was the end of any government in Iraq but Saddam. I saw that same footage. Chilling, to say the least.

That's why we don't ever give up our guns. Ever.

Quoted: For the next few years, the US Army, US Marine Corps, US Air Force and US Navy will assure that doesn't happen. We already saw Al Sadr get froggy and jump with his militia, trying to do just that. But you saw what happened to him. His militia became cannon fodder and he became irrelevent.

That means big numbers of US troops on the ground in Iraq for years to come. Not sure everyone is going to be happy with that idea.

And what if it isn't someone as blatant as Saddam. Suppose the Iraqis get to be free and independent and then elect someone like Saddam? Are we supposed to overturn their democracy?

Ultimately, the fate of Iraq rests in the hands of the Iraqis. They have lived under a dictator long enough to know what that is. The majority of Iraqis don't want that. The fact that thousands continue to flock to recruiting centers to sign up for the Iraqi police and military is evidence of this, in spite of being targeted by the terrorists. These people believe in what we are trying to do. There is some dissention obviously, but the majority are on our side.

I don't really know about that. They have no tradition of democracy. They do have a tradition of bloody inter-tribal disputes, fairly extremist religion, and the idea that one king rules best, even if he is inherently evil.

But, regardless, none of that mattered when Saddam surrounded the parliament and showed that he had enough force to beat any opposition.

Iraq isn't and never will be a mini-America. Their culture is too different. But with a little luck, it will become one of the more open minded and free societies in that area of the world. And that alone is an accomplishment. I truly believe it will happen. It's going to take some time and more blood, sweat and tears to get there. But it can and I do believe will happen. That's a noble undertaking worthy of our support.

From your lips to God's ears, as they say. But I don't see it that rosy. Their culture is much more willing to accept an evil ayatollah or other dictator than ours is.