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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/29/2004 4:23:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 4:23:33 AM EST by AShooter]
I've seen it mentioned more than once in relation to classes taught by Pat Rogers. The latest article said it was used to start out every day of training. What is it? ...or is that a "trade secret" that we have to sign up for a course at Gunsite in order to learn.

This might be a good place to pose another question: How many others are stuck beating their head against the following wall? -- You have too much shooting experience to get any real benefit from the intro level classes taught at places like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, but you do not have any of the "prerequisites" under your belt to qualify for entry into the more advanced classes.

I've had more than one TR/Gunsite alumnus I've shot "combat" matches with tell me that a TR or Gunsite intro level class would be mostly a waste of money for me. Not that I'm that great a shooter, but just that they would be re-teaching stuff that I already know. (Getting back to basics is good, but not for that kind of money.)

Thanks in advance,

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:39:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 9:31:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 9:59:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Denny_Hansen:

As for the SOTG course, it's been changed very slightly and I don't have the current version. However, if you email me at denny@swatmag.com I'll send you a PDF of the original.

Thanks! Email on the way.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:20:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:28:03 AM EST by AShooter]

Originally Posted By Rich_Lucibella:

Took the Gunsite Gen Rifle and then went for the Thunder Ranch Gen Rifle in the same season.
Maybe I'm just a Low Speed / High Drag kinda guy, but repeating the fundamentals is an essential for me. YMMV.

Alterternatively, you'll find both schools wil consider waiving the intro course, if you can demonstrate equivalent training.

I might try that route. Hell, I live about a 20 minute drive from Thunder Ranch but never tried to sign up for a class because I didn't want to cough up $1000+/- to learn a bunch of stuff I already knew.... Of course, TR won't be there for long. -- damyankees

Boy, I sure wish I could fit the "Terminator" into my back yard.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:17:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:55:20 AM EST
UNfortuantely though, TR is teaching it's last classes as we speak.

They will be moving to Oregon this winter.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:06:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:53:39 AM EST
Anyone who teaches different levels of skill sets works off of a system.
Those skills are learned in a basic class. Any of the "advanced" classes build on the previous skills, add new techniques, and introduce tactics.

To interject oneself into an intermediate/ advanced class without possessing the basic skills as taught by that school is a very bad idea.
First off, you will be way behind the power curve. The instructor will have to spend a fair amount of time to get you up to speed, at the detriment of the others students.
This means that you will soon be very unpopular among your peers. More importantly, you won't be absorbing very much new information.

Additionally, the greater majority of casual shooters have a very overinflated idea as to their skill level. Conversly, true professionals will always return to basics on a regular basis in order to relearn the good things and unlearn bad things.
Finally, fully 95% of the students who have been waived into Gunsite (the exceptions here being those who took basic courses at TR, from Jeff or Louie) that i have taught have not done well at all. In fact, they did poorly, and dragged the whole class down.

No one is that good that you can't learn from a basic class. Anyone who attends any class and doesn't learn anything, just isn't trying.

You have to make your choices based on what it is that you need/ want.
It's just that you won't be waived into a Gunsite class unless you have some very strong credentials to back up your play.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:17:25 AM EST
Okay, okay guys... I get the message. But I still have to fall back on the fact that I've had 5 or 6 different people who I've shot with, and who have been to Thunder Ranch and Gunsite (some for several different classes) tell me that I'd be "mostly wasting my money".

I am absolutely NOT saying that I have nothing to learn or that I do not want/need/crave new "tools for my toolbox", only that I have a hard time justifying spending big bucks to go have somebody teach me how to do a double-tap, and how to slice the pie around corners, and how to shoot from "rice-paddy prone" etc. I understand it is absolutely essential to go back and redrill the basics, and do it with new perspectives from new instructors as much as possible. Hell, I'm sure the instructors even learn a lot from their students... If they don't, they probably could/should be.

All I'm saying is that from what I've heard, most of an intro level class is going to be reviewing "tools" that I already have... albiet tools that I admit need to be taken out, dusted off, and worked with more often than I do.

Anyway, SWAT mag (and Pat Rogers in particular) have impressed me enough that I'm seriously considering rethinking my lack of formal training, which is why I posted this thread in the first place. The next problem is going to be choosing the right school, so that I don't get into a position where a new school I want to go to 6 months later is going to kick me back to square one because I don't have their required prerequisites.

You can see why this can be kind of frustrating, can't you?

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:16:58 PM EST
Thank you for the kind words, and am glad that you are seeking training.
The key to receiving good training is to research the trainer/ facility well. There are a great number of very real deal guys, as well as some posers whose only claim to fame is that they have taken courses somewhere from someone.
Having said that, everyone has something to offer, and many people have a very unique way of lookingat the same problem, based on their frame of reference. You cannot expect to go from "A" and want to step into a "B" class of advanced tactics. It ain't gonna' happen.

I have no problem stepping into a basic class. I find that i can pick up some very useful information, and certainly have an opportunity to see how others work out their training issues.

Good luck!

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:01:46 AM EST
Leaning toward either Gunsite or Midsouth Institute. Not a lot of info out there on Midsouth, but I've heard that most of their trainees are "pros", so there might be a lot of interesting info to absorb there.

Either way, thanks for the input guys!

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:15:43 AM EST
I spent six days with Pat this summer, and I think he would agree I was pretty damn proficient when I showed up. Doesn't matter... I learned and polished my techniques with carbine and pistol, and I'd spend the money again in a heartbeat.

You don't know what you don't know until you take a course.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 11:07:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I spent six days with Pat this summer, and I think he would agree I was pretty damn proficient when I showed up. Doesn't matter... I learned and polished my techniques with carbine and pistol, and I'd spend the money again in a heartbeat.

You don't know what you don't know until you take a course.

Okay, I'm more or less sold on the idea that even if I was a whole lot better than I am, I could still come out having learned a lot.

One more question for you and for Pat - Is there much/any indoor simulator or "patrol" work in these intro level classes? Or is it most/all pretty straight-forward "everybody line up and shoot" type stuff? I guess what I'm most interested in learning is tactics rather than the mechanics of front-sight-press type stuff.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 1:27:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:02:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 7:03:27 AM EST by mcgrubbs]

Let me sum it up for you. In Pat's classes, you learn to FIGHT with a carbine.

There are other classes, such as at Gunsite, and taught by Pat, that cover more advanced tactics.

But to get there, you need other classe(s) first.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:35:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:54:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 5:56:04 AM EST by ajp3jeh]
I've taken so many pistol classes, I've begun to lose track. I've taken multiple handgun courses at Thunder Ranch and Frontsight. I've taken 250C at Gunsite (even got an E-ticket) and a course with Maricopa Tactical. I've taken pistol courses from Jeff Gonzales, Randy Cain, Chuck Taylor, Jim Crews as well as LE training. With the exception of the LE classes, I've never thought that my training was a waste of my time. In fact, Randy Cain's Handgun 101 is a course that I would take every year if I could because his instructional abilities are that good and I learn that much.

Fights are won with the basics. Generally the person who can execute the basics most quickly will win. The difference between a pro and an amateur is that the pro can execute the basics on demand, quickly, smoothly, and without conscious thought. A "basic" class will review and refine your basics and move you closer to the professional level. EVERYONE has a shooting trait/problem that can be refined - I've even seen Pat miss a shot :). I'd be very skeptical of anyone who tells you that you working the basics would be a waste of your time. I suspect that they have an overinflated opinion of their skills and are likely tried and true combat masters as proven by IDPA or IPSC competition.

As far as carbine courses go, I've taken Gunsite's 223, Thunder Ranch's UR I & II, and Pat's Carbine class. All were excellent classes and worth attending. At no point in any of those classes did I think I was wasting my time. To answer you specific question, Gunsite's 223 (basic carbine) does have scenarios in a shoothouse to help you learn tactics. Pat's class was more of an intermediate level class. Pat clearly expected you to have a mastery of pistol and carbine marskmanship before you showed up. Pat's class wasn't about shooting tight little groups, such a skill level was an expected pre-requisite.

If you want a more detailed breakdown of the Gunsite course, go to my website and look under "Reviews" - thecurmudgeon.freeservers.com

I have a copy of the MEUSOC course, I don't know if its the most current but it can be found at thecurmudgeon.freeservers.com/meusoc.pdf
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:27:45 AM EST
Many thanks for the input, "ajp3jeh"!

All sounds like music to my ears. I actually really WANT to go do some of this stuff. Maybe make it a yearly "vacation" type thing. I just didn't/don't want to go pay somebody to re-teach me really simple stuff like "front-site-press" and "this is called a double-tap" - I can do all that by myself. Sounds like some of these courses and instructors would be good. (Also sounds like some others really would be a waste of money.)

As far as the overinflated view of one's abilities: I want to stress again that I have NO illusions that I would not learn a LOT of valuable stuff from somebody like Pat. My concern was/is that I might truly be a cut above the average 1st time Gunsite or TR attendee and therefore not have the opportunity to learn as much as I would like, due to the course being geared toward the "lowest common denominator". Please don't take this wrong - I know I want/need help! I just didn't want to spend a grand plus for a "review". But it sounds like Pat's course, at least, would not fall into that category for me.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:45:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 8:45:39 AM EST by ScottDM74]
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:46:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 1:17:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 1:20:21 PM EST by texastactical]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:55:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By texastactical:
I can vouch for Ashooters abilities and knowledge, his skills are definetely above the average shooters.
I think his concerns about getting the most bang for his buck are very valid.

Hey Mike!!! What's up? Been waaay too long since I've been shootin' with you guys, so my abilities are not exactly what they were a year ago. But, hopefully I can start getting back in the groove soon.


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