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Posted: 9/5/2004 6:55:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:03:06 AM EST by Tortfeasor]
Do you believe that statement? Poll coming shortly...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:59:01 AM EST


let it go!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:04:13 AM EST
Not all of them, but certaily quite a few. William Calley comes to mind.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:05:44 AM EST
WAR IS HELL plain and simple.
It is necessary but not pretty and obviously their are extremes in every situation
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:06:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:06:59 AM EST by Tortfeasor]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Not all of them, but certaily quite a few. William Calley comes to mind.



Mai Lai is absolutely documented and has never been questioned until now...I love our site but the front page says something about Kerry accusing our troops of "heinous acts" in Vietnam, which is actually TRUE. It's like saying the Holocaust never happened....I'll probably vote for Bush (have been undecided up to now) but I just don't get the lack of intellectual honesty on BOTH sides.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:06:59 AM EST
weres the our military should have been commiting acts the democrats consider Heinious option
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:07:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:08:01 AM EST
Its fucking war, what do you expect. Did we torture and kill prisoners? Probably or at least our allied did. If you could do anything to save the grunt next to you, you did it. You kill one enemy get info and avoid an ambush. So fucking what. Your guys get to go home.

No holds barred when you are playing for real. This sissy PC war shit is ridiculous. ROKs werent PC and a lot less of them got killed because of it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:08:09 AM EST
Mai Lai was a incident where unarmed women/children were killed. that would probably be heinous on most people's scales.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:08:16 AM EST
There have been atrocities commited by every side in every war ever fought. That is the nature of war. It is not all honor, fairness and decency. War is a nasty business. WAR IS HELL.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:09:08 AM EST
Not gonna vote your questions suck.

Anytime there is a war. There will be some who will twist off and do unthinkable acts. Those same type of individuals would do it in a civilized society during peace as well though.

But I am sure it was not normal, standard or sanctioned by officers.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:09:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Its fucking war, what do you expect. Did we torture and kill prisoners? Probably or at least our allied did. If you could do anything to save the grunt next to you, you did it. You kill one enemy get info and avoid an ambush. So fucking what. Your guys get to go home.

No holds barred when you are playing for real. This sissy PC war shit is ridiculous. ROKs werent PC and a lot less of them got killed because of it.



That's not what we teach our troops. Ther are rules of war, and it's not "no holds barred." Whenever I hear this it most certainly an armchair warrior who has never been a soldier.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:10:09 AM EST
All is fair in warfare. Whatever it takes to get those bastards to back down.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:10:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Diss_ipator:
Not gonna vote your questions suck.

Anytime there is a war. There will be some who will twist off and do unthinkable acts. Those same type of individuals would do it in a civilized society during peace as well though.

But I am sure it was not normal, standard or sanctioned by officers.



Wow - you know absolutely NOTHING about Calley and Mai Lai. It was ORDERED by officers.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:10:47 AM EST
.... the left thinks shooting the enemy is a war crime...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:11:02 AM EST
Kerry admitted that he/himself commited hienous acts!! What a hypocrite!! Things happen in war . If a kid coming up to me has a bomb strapped to his chest and is going to kill me or my fellow country men, that will be the last mistake he'llever make! Take care.Coondog
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:12:14 AM EST
Although My Lai was documented, I think comparing some cases of brutality to e coordinated atrocity that was the holocaust is quite a reach.

I think Kerry's imagination & hunger for fame got the better of him while testifying, and for that, he owes many servicemen an apology. The picture he painted was not accurate, IMO.


Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:12:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Diss_ipator:
Not gonna vote your questions suck.

Anytime there is a war. There will be some who will twist off and do unthinkable acts. Those same type of individuals would do it in a civilized society during peace as well though.

But I am sure it was not normal, standard or sanctioned by officers.



I tried to use neutral questions without interjecting my own bias. What questions shoudl I have used?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:14:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By coondog:
Kerry admitted that he/himself commited hienous acts!! What a hypocrite!! Things happen in war . If a kid coming up to me has a bomb strapped to his chest and is going to kill me or my fellow country men, that will be the last mistake he'llever make! Take care.Coondog



I agree - mostly why I am voting against him, but the key question is what do regular people, not soldiers who served there, believe about what we did.....as you can see, there are several people on this board, otherwise intelligent, who think killing innocent women and children is not "heinous." Then those same people will go over to the Russion/chechyn thread and shed a tear for the women and children the terrorists killed. How is that not hypocrisy?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:15:28 AM EST
There were war crimes committed in Vietnam.

There were also war crimes committed in the Revolutionary War, the war of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, the first World War, the Second World War, Korea, Panama, the Gulf, Kosovo, Bosnia, and this Gulf war too.

But, can you blame soldiers? I can not. You give a heavy burden on these men and women... you ask them to do things people are against nature not wanting to do. They must fight, they must sometimes kill, they must endure things that most never endure... So, I think that sometimes a VERY SMALL percentage of them do bad things.

That doesn't mean, however, that they are bad people... They just went through a bad situation and did something they probably didn't mean to do.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:17:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:


I think Kerry's imagination & hunger for fame got the better of him while testifying, and for that, he owes many servicemen an apology. The picture he painted was not accurate, IMO.





Exactly. When you compare him to GWB's honesty, will to do the right thing no matter how it looked, or what people believe it's hard to vote for Kerry. Kerry has been planning his run for POTUS for 40 years, and his every statement was calculated to be "how would this look in my presidential race?"
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:18:52 AM EST
All militaries commit heinous acts… it's war, is not 'pretty', is not 'nice'… but who are we to judge, we were no there.

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:19:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

But, can you blame soldiers? I can not. You give a heavy burden on these men and women... you ask them to do things people are against nature not wanting to do. They must fight, they must sometimes kill, they must endure things that most never endure... So, I think that sometimes a VERY SMALL percentage of them do bad things.




So we should re-open the Neurenburg trials and exonerate those Nazi soldiers, admittedly high ranking ones, convicted there?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:35:53 AM EST
Some did, most didn't. I'm not voting, because the correct answer is not listed. War affects people differently. Sometimes you discover things about yourself you wish you never knew.
In Vietnam, there was no GPS, very little night vision and only a few prototype guided weapons, which showed up late in the war. Without the technology, intelligence was gathered with the Mark I eyeball. Recon troops did what they had to do to maintain mission security. In the field, anybody who raised the alarm when they spotted American troops were considered to be "communist sympathizers" who were trying to tip off the enemy. Some units considered "communist sympathizers" fair game.

From a different point of view, if you spotted foreign troops working your neighborhood and tried to warn your neighbors to get in their homes, you were "deadmeat." On the other hand, some of those neighbors would run into the bush, dig up their weapons and set up an ambush for the Americans.

War just plain sucks for the participants.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:40:10 AM EST
You need to change your poll. Certain INDIVIDUALS that were in the military committed crimes but our military did NOT commit crimes.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:40:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By ajm1911:
WAR IS HELL plain and simple.
It is necessary but not pretty and obviously their are extremes in every situation




+1.....if you talk to anyone that has been there you should know that. Doesn't nessecarily begrade the person, but it still occures.


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:53:06 AM EST
Some of our guys in Vietnam comitted atrocities but the vast majority did not and it was not policy nor was it ordered by anyone in high command.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:01:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 8:05:01 AM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:14:16 AM EST
Any military is based on a cross section of general society. Since general society will have its bad apples, so will the military. Put that in combination with the stress of battle, and sometimes inadequate leadership, and bad things will happen.

But Kerry painted ALL vets in that light, which is inexcusable and his ultimate lie.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:15:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:18:28 AM EST
Yes, but not nearly as many as some would have you believe.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:20:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Balzac72:



+1
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:38:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 8:40:58 AM EST by MrClean4Hire]
A relative of mine was 5th group in nam. He told stories of cutting off ears and wearing them . Vc would boobytrap a strike team of yards so they would shoot all of them since no one knew who did it.
Helicopter rides for interogation,etc.

You do what is effective to save American lives and reach your objective. War is hell.

Like the saying goes if war was great we would grow fond of it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:47:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:54:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By Balzac72:



+1



+
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:12:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 9:12:58 AM EST by cyanide]
Doesn't matter what we say here and today -- the "victor" gets to write the history on an event -


and we were not the victors in that event in history.


So like I say - it doesn't matter what we say about that today - here and now.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:58:04 AM EST
"War is hell, Combat is a mother f@!^*r." If you never had a shot fired at you, you will NEVER understand, then it turns into a debate. RVN Class of 69.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:02:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By Balzac72:



+1



No guys, I'm not a troll...I just want to see what percentage really believe no atrocities occurred. In can go along with the site endorsing GWB, and at this point I am closer than ever before to voting for him. But an official statement should be intellectually honest, and one of the justifications for the endorsement was that Kerry said our troops committed heihous acts - WE DID! And some were punished for it. Now, for Kerry to grandstand and make is look worse than we were was shameful.

But I can tell you after 16 years in the military we study the leadership failures of our military, and Vietnam is a target rich environment. Am I wrong for asking the question? For posting the poll? IF so, then so be it. Those of you who go along without questioning things are worse than trolls...you are zombies that will be among the first to hand over your guns when the time comes. Not me.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:04:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
A relative of mine was 5th group in nam. He told stories of cutting off ears and wearing them . Vc would boobytrap a strike team of yards so they would shoot all of them since no one knew who did it.
Helicopter rides for interogation,etc.

You do what is effective to save American lives and reach your objective. War is hell.

Like the saying goes if war was great we would grow fond of it.



Wait a minute- I never made any judgments regarding whether those things were right or wrong....I'd be the first to cut off an ear and wear it if that helps you understand me, (and I don't care what anybody thinks abou that) but to make the statement that we didn't commit heinous acts is a lie.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:11:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tortfeasor:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Not all of them, but certaily quite a few. William Calley comes to mind.



Mai Lai is absolutely documented and has never been questioned until now...I love our site but the front page says something about Kerry accusing our troops of "heinous acts" in Vietnam, which is actually TRUE. It's like saying the Holocaust never happened....I'll probably vote for Bush (have been undecided up to now) but I just don't get the lack of intellectual honesty on BOTH sides.



Only a very unsophisticated mind or a liar could try to sell this bullsh*t.

Some atrocities occurred this is the nature of war but it was not the Holocaust and you are clearly and imbecile if you think the 2 are comparable.

Kerry did not say US troops committed atrocities is South Vietnam. What he said he it was US POLICY to commit atrocities those 2 statements are not the same thing.

Ask yourself one question if it was US policy to committed atrocities is South Vietnam why hundreds of thousands of South Vietnam try to flee to the US after the war.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:20:04 AM EST
As a rule war is a heinous endeavour. Acts regarded as heinous by some are merely acts of self preservation, after all war is merely an extension of diplomacy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:08:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 1:11:54 PM EST by Sturmwehr]

Originally Posted By Tortfeasor:

So we should re-open the Neurenburg trials and exonerate those Nazi soldiers, admittedly high ranking ones, convicted there?



I don't know of any Neurenburg trials, but the Nuremberg had some ridiculous charges and they let other Nazis escape that deserved trial much more so.

Like Herman Goering, he had absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps or Jews or anything of that sort - yet he was still slated for execution when horrible dispectible devilish people like Adolf Eichmann (about every bit as evil as Hitler, only the difference being what Hitler ordered, Eichmann did personally. a SICK man - yet he wasn't held to the Nuremberg trials) escaped death and jail time until much after the war.



So, before you go making a statement like this... Don't forget, it's good to check up on history. Also, I wish to ask you not to compare soldiers to high ranking political generals and Field Marshalls and desk clerks that most of the Nazis were at Nuremberg. I'm talking about the people that are in the field, not back at HQ sipping on tea while some poor bastard is getting shot at.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:47:53 PM EST
sure, some of our soldiers committed war crimes. But for every U.S. mylai, there were 20 similar communist atrocities. And those WERE sanctioned by their gov/military. Whereas our war crimes were unusual actions taken by individuals, the communists actions were deliberate and frequent.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:16:54 PM EST
Yes...but so fucking what?

War crimes have been committed by opposing forces in every war since man picked up a rock and whacked his neighbor in the head a couple of million years ago.

Sure we killed POWs or just didn't take any.

Sure we zippoed vills

Sure we got creative with interrogation.

And sure...there was lots of collateral damage.

All of the above and tons more were just part of hideous warfare being waged by BOTH sides. We certainly didn't have the corner on war crimes. Had we won that war, lots of dinks would have been hanged.

That said, for every damn one of the points above, the NVA and VC did far worse things to our troops and their own countrymen in the South, by several orders of magnitude.

Just to put this into perspective, ask any Marine who served on Guadalcanal and survived the rest of the war and the follow-on invasions how they "treated" the Japs after The 'Canal. It wasnt' pretty. It was on The 'Canal that the Marines learned of the Japs' real treachery and their desire to die for their emperor and take as many Americans with them as possible. When the Navy corpsmen tried to treat some of the bastards after the Battle of the Matnikau, the Jap wounded used grenades and pistols against those very same corpsmen! After that, the Marines simply didn't take any POWs. They learned to "double-tap" the enemy. No quarter was asked by either side and NONE was given.

The record of our Asian enemies in Japan, Korea and Vietnam is far worse than ours. Just ask any of our POW survivors.

Did we? Sure. In the larger picture...we didn't do all that badly though.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:20:02 PM EST
War is a "heinous act". If it isn't, you're doing it wrong.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:30:14 PM EST
I am sure US troops committed atrocities, however it was the rare exception and not the rule.

The VC/NVA on the other hand, committed atrocities as a rule.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:35:12 PM EST
you tell me what war is not brutal! how the fuck kerry knows, he was only there for 4 months.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:39:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By M1-Matt:

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By Balzac72:



+1



+



+
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:48:34 PM EST
Sure it did, and you know what?

I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK!

Considering how they treated their own people, and how they treated our POW's, they're fucking lucky we didn't just ship all the hippies over there and then nuke the place...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:57:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Some of our guys in Vietnam comitted atrocities but the vast majority did not and it was not policy nor was it ordered by anyone in high command.



+1
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:37:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Like Herman Goering, he had absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps or Jews or anything of that sort



Just to name a few things off the top of my head:

November 9, 1938, Goering fined the German Jewish community a billion marks and ordered the elimination of Jews from the German economy, the "Aryanization" of their property and businesses, and their exclusion from schools, resorts, parks, forests.

November 12, 1938, Goering stated," a final reckoning with the Jews should Germany come into conflict with a foreign power."

July 31, 1941, Goering instructed Heydrich to "carry out all preparations with regard to . . . a general solution [Gesamtlosung] of the Jewish question in those territories of Europe which are under German influence."

As Hitlers second in command he was up to his fat ass in what was going on.
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