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Posted: 9/3/2009 6:16:18 PM EST
...he tells me that, as I advance towards the near ambush, I need to turn my body 45 degrees away from the enemy to reduce my silhouette. In other words, says he as he turns my shoulders, you've got to blade.

This is me as I tried not to fall out laughing:



Mystery solved!!! Blading or not, he taught me a ton about using my AR-15 in just a few short hours. He is the man.

(Before anyone raises the flag, he really is a Green Beret. I've seen his beret with flash and read his DD-214. Before joining the Special Forces, he was an All American and served with the Old Guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns. He retired after 25 years in the Army.)
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:18:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By mastadon:
...he tells me that, as I advance towards the near ambush, I need to turn my body 45 degrees away from the enemy to reduce my silhouette. In other words, says he as he turns my shoulders, you've got to blade.

This is me as I tried not to fall out laughing:



Mystery solved!!! Blading or not, he taught me a ton about using my AR-15 in just a few short hours. He is the man.

(Before anyone raises the flag, he really is a Green Beret. I've seen his beret with flash and read his DD-214. Before joining the Special Forces, he was an All American and served with the Old Guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns. He retired after 25 years in the Army.)




disengage disengage disengage!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:19:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By mastadon:
...he tells me that, as I advance towards the near ambush, I need to turn my body 45 degrees away from the enemy to reduce my silhouette. In other words, says he as he turns my shoulders, you've got to blade.

This is me as I tried not to fall out laughing:



Mystery solved!!! Blading or not, he taught me a ton about using my AR-15 in just a few short hours. He is the man.

(Before anyone raises the flag, he really is a Green Beret. I've seen his beret with flash and read his DD-214. Before joining the Special Forces, he was an All American and served with the Old Guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns. He retired after 25 years in the Army.)


Just remember to have a massive adrenaline dump whilst doing so.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:20:43 PM EST

Well, I always used my rollerblades when assaulting through an ambush......
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:23:30 PM EST
ALET! ALET! ALET!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:25:02 PM EST
FO! FO! FO!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:25:32 PM EST
Yes, Professional gunners do this Blading you think is so funny....THE SMALLER THE TARGET YOU PRESENT THEM THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO KILL YOU WHILE FIRING BACK UNDER STRESS!!

Common friggin sense!! Forget the whole Wal-Mart thing, the smaller target is harder to hit accurately.

They also told me something else to consider that makes combat easier, forget your fear of being hit in a gunfight, jsut figure that if you are in a gunfight, YOU WILL BE HIT! Then you can skip the fear and concentrate on killing the son of a bitch!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:26:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2009 6:29:01 PM EST by DCN1982]
Get him to do it again. On video. Say it's for training reference.

You will win Arfcom if you post it.

BAAFFDAAPV
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:28:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By mastadon:
...he tells me that, as I advance towards the near ambush, I need to turn my body 45 degrees away from the enemy to reduce my silhouette. In other words, says he as he turns my shoulders, you've got to blade.

This is me as I tried not to fall out laughing:



Mystery solved!!! Blading or not, he taught me a ton about using my AR-15 in just a few short hours. He is the man.

(Before anyone raises the flag, he really is a Green Beret. I've seen his beret with flash and read his DD-214. Before joining the Special Forces, he was an All American and served with the Old Guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns. He retired after 25 years in the Army.)


Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:28:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
Yes, Professional gunners do this Blading you think is so funny....THE SMALLER THE TARGET YOU PRESENT THEM THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO KILL YOU WHILE FIRING BACK UNDER STRESS!!

Common friggin sense!! Forget the whole Wal-Mart thing, the smaller target is harder to hit accurately.

They also told me something else to consider that makes combat easier, forget your fear of being hit in a gunfight, jsut figure that if you are in a gunfight, YOU WILL BE HIT! Then you can skip the fear and concentrate on killing the son of a bitch!!

What was funny was having the real world and the Arfcom worlds collide on this guy's range. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not making fun of the guy or indicating that what he taught me isn't wise.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:29:29 PM EST
Blading is not some make believe move that a retard in walmart conjured up.

It is taught to most military and police as a way to protect your weapon and get in a ready position.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:29:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By DCN1982:
Get him to do it again. On video. Say it's for training reference.

You will win Arfcom if you post it.

Hah! I'll see what I can do. I think I'm going shooting with him again on Sunday. I'll even buy a video camera just for Arfcom!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:30:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2009 6:31:56 PM EST by Clack]
25 year army.....In SC....His name isnt John N is it? Sounds like a friend of mine.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:31:30 PM EST
does this start the isosceles vs weaver debate?
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:33:31 PM EST
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:33:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Clack:
25 year army.....In SC....His name isnt John N is it? Sounds like a friend of mine.

Nope, not him. There is, however, a John D. from the same area who was career Army and served with 5th, 8th, and 7th SFG. Vietnam vet. Awesome guy (both of them are –– I have about 87 shitloads of respect for both men).
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:39:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.


This!

If I dont have armor I will blade, but if I have sufficinet armor to counter the threat I would rather take the hit head on as opposed to in the side where its going to rip right through me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:43:20 PM EST
I hear ya. The guy im talking about is the real deal too. Good dude id trust to no end.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 6:47:54 PM EST
Well obviously if you have SAPI PLATE armor you aren't gogin to expose the soft sides, use some common sense, i'm talking in general.

Who the hell here wheres Hard plate body armor to a the mall or even soft body armor in case there's a self defense situation?

I was speaking of those times you have no body armor at all. You also will be moving and shooting and finding cover,hell as far as i'm concerned those planters and fountains in malls are put there specifically to catch bullets before i do. Same with other people cars!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:00:15 PM EST
During what time was he in the GB?

Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:04:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By mastadon:

Originally Posted By DCN1982:
Get him to do it again. On video. Say it's for training reference.

You will win Arfcom if you post it.

Hah! I'll see what I can do. I think I'm going shooting with him again on Sunday. I'll even buy a video camera just for Arfcom!


Must digital still cameras can shoot video. Long enough to catch the blading.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:12:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By lunyou:
During what time was he in the GB?


Not exactly sure. He told me about all of his service except for the GB part –– I just happened to find out one day when I went to his house. Since he didn't volunteer the info, I didn't ask questions. He just confirmed that he was a GB, and that was that. I believe his career was from 1975-2000 (or thereabouts), and I suspect that his service in the GB was halfway or more through his career.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:16:21 PM EST
Just as an fyi the beret with flash means nothing. The cooks for a SF unit are issued berets and flashes. True SF will have a Special Forces tab.

Of course a DD-214 showing them going through JFK is the ultimate means of verification. :D
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:19:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By Pav56C:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.


This!

If I dont have armor I will blade, but if I have sufficinet armor to counter the threat I would rather take the hit head on as opposed to in the side where its going to rip right through me.

This!
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:20:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2009 7:27:39 PM EST by mastadon]

Originally Posted By Blackhawk101:
Just as an fyi the beret with flash means nothing. The cooks for a SF unit are issued berets and flashes. True SF will have a Special Forces tab.

Of course a DD-214 showing them going through JFK is the ultimate means of verification. :D

Well, I know this guy started his career at jump school, then went with the Old Guard, and then back to the 82d. He was definitely a grunt.

I didn't know to look for JFK on his paper, but DD-214 does show Special Forces tab. Does that count?

ETA: And yeah, my other 82nd buddy and I talked about the beret thing at our weekly lunch. He was, of course, stationed at Bragg, and was telling me that you'd see some fatty female soldier wearing a Green Beret and that you were always pretty sure that they weren't advising anti-commie insurgents somewhere. Same with the red beret of the 82nd. I also knew another "Green Beret," but this guy was really quick to tell you he was a Green Beret. I kept prodding and asking him questions about weapons, tactics, and exactly what he did. He finally had to admit that he was admin.

ETAA: Nevermind on the SF tab. I just caught that in your post –– it's late and I'm tired.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:17:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By xaaronx:
Originally Posted By Pav56C:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.


This!

If I dont have armor I will blade, but if I have sufficinet armor to counter the threat I would rather take the hit head on as opposed to in the side where its going to rip right through me.

This!


Military body armor now carries hard plates on the side, FYI
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:26:49 PM EST
If you are wearing armor. Do not expose your sides. Armor is the weakest at the sides. And round penetrating across the body will do more damage that from front to back.

Your best bet if you have plated armor is to take the rounds straight on and let the armor do it's job, while you are firing back. Then seek cover.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:41:56 PM EST
The rules of stance in a gun fight have changed somewhat. The body armor issued today to soldiers is vastly different than what was issued 15 years ago. So different techniques are taught. Get a group of GB together from different eras and I'm sure they will argue for hours on the "proper" techniques of stance in a gun fight.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:48:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
Yes, Professional gunners do this Blading you think is so funny....THE SMALLER THE TARGET YOU PRESENT THEM THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO KILL YOU WHILE FIRING BACK UNDER STRESS!!

Common friggin sense!! Forget the whole Wal-Mart thing, the smaller target is harder to hit accurately.

They also told me something else to consider that makes combat easier, forget your fear of being hit in a gunfight, jsut figure that if you are in a gunfight, YOU WILL BE HIT! Then you can skip the fear and concentrate on killing the son of a bitch!!


I always think like when when playing Call of Duty 4...war is hell man.

*cleans guns, is 350 pounds*
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:50:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By bulletsponge13:
Originally Posted By xaaronx:
Originally Posted By Pav56C:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.


This!

If I dont have armor I will blade, but if I have sufficinet armor to counter the threat I would rather take the hit head on as opposed to in the side where its going to rip right through me.

This!


Military body armor now carries hard plates on the side, FYI


Cool story, bro. I dont have side plates or shoulder plates. So what I said, again.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:56:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2009 9:56:44 PM EST by Tony7189]
"Blading" as Arfcom calls it also works well in hand to hand combat for the same principal, smaller target.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 9:57:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
Yes, Professional gunners do this Blading you think is so funny....THE SMALLER THE TARGET YOU PRESENT THEM THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO KILL YOU WHILE FIRING BACK UNDER STRESS!!

Common friggin sense!! Forget the whole Wal-Mart thing, the smaller target is harder to hit accurately.

They also told me something else to consider that makes combat easier, forget your fear of being hit in a gunfight, jsut figure that if you are in a gunfight, YOU WILL BE HIT! Then you can skip the fear and concentrate on killing the son of a bitch!!


Actually, blading while wearing body armor is the incorrect move. It will expose your vitals. Ungood.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 10:05:30 PM EST

My CCW instructor was GB.

He carries .22 mag and claimed he could put head shots at 50 yards at the range.

They are no joke.


Link Posted: 9/3/2009 10:48:42 PM EST
after the WM thread, I searched youtube on blading and came up with moving backwards at a 45* angle from the threat.
Which allowed ample time to dump adrenaline and to shout disengage.

I need clarification.


Link Posted: 9/3/2009 11:18:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2009 11:21:04 PM EST by SlipShot762]
i would have thought rather than blading, that you would want to be square on so that your rifle plate and not your armpit is more likely to catch rounds, especially as you close. Absent armor with plates, the blading would tend to make sense, but being big green I would have thought his training would have been based on the likelihood of him having armor with plate?

eta

nevermind, got to read more than just the first post, damn i'm too frisky tonight
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 11:33:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.


+1

Most of us who started in uniform pre-armor days were taught similar. In my career I've deployed wihout armor, with PASGTs, and now with the various versions of IBA. Things have changed a lot.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 12:09:07 AM EST
When I used to hang at the local bar near where I lived 20 years ago, the local cops usually came in at about 11:00PM to see if things were cool. They always stood with there sides facing whomever they were speaking too. I always thought it was weird, because when I talk to someone, I face them. After a while, I realized that did that to prevent a smaller target. I didn't work for the fat cops, but the normal guys were okay.

Thanks to arfcom, I now know the technical term: blading!
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 12:15:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.


This, old timers do quite a few things differently. It was a different time, not a question of right and wrong.

Now, most operations involve body armor of some sorts, thus squaring puts the widest area of plate between you and the threat.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 12:21:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By Tony7189:
"Blading" as Arfcom calls it also works well in hand to hand combat for the same principal, smaller target.


In my MA class we are told to "square off" with our opponent, and no I don't go to some bullshit Karate class.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 12:26:11 AM EST
Whentf did pogs at sf units start wearing green hats? My best frined is an s1 for an sf unit and he and all the other pogs wear the maroon hats and only long tabbers wear green hats. I know some others that do or did various things in sf and the only ones that ever touched a green hat at work were the long tabbers. Stories of fat women in green hats do not coincide with 670-1 as I understand it.

Anyway, yeah the pre-IBA army taught technique I guess some queers call "blading" but if you got sapi plate you square up.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 12:36:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2009 12:38:30 AM EST by JBlitzen]
Originally Posted By mattja:
When I used to hang at the local bar near where I lived 20 years ago, the local cops usually came in at about 11:00PM to see if things were cool. They always stood with there sides facing whomever they were speaking too. I always thought it was weird, because when I talk to someone, I face them. After a while, I realized that did that to prevent a smaller target. I didn't work for the fat cops, but the normal guys were okay.

Thanks to arfcom, I now know the technical term: blading!

They do that because it puts their entire body between the person they're speaking to and their holstered weapon.

It's a retention technique.

Blading is also common in martial arts. Your feet form a line, and force exerted against you perpendicular to that line will either knock you on your back or pull you on your stomach. Well, you'll actually try to stop your fall, but that will require moving your feet and hands, and the opponent thus controls your direction.

And that's not some goofy korean aerobics martial art, either, you look at any of them and you'll see it, including boxing. Basic boxing stance is a 45 degree blade.



Squaring up is a military tactic for people who wear heavy armor for a living and are dozens if not hundreds of yards from their opponent. I have problems with classes that teach it to civilians for use in close range defensive situations, in which it confers no particular advantage, while expanding your opponent's target and allowing him to manhandle you decisively simply by grabbing your extended weapon and pushing or pulling.

I think it's symptomatic of contemporary military training mixing with cardboard civilian range instruction. The problems would only really present themselves during unarmored force on force practice.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 1:31:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By berto187:

My CCW instructor was GB.

He carries .22 mag and claimed he could put head shots at 50 yards at the range.

They are no joke.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/wallstuff4/Hostage5.jpg


does that guy have 3 hands no really it looks like he has two on the wheel gun...

that said...

on the "face the fact of getting shot" to make it through is the same as with knife fighting. Once you get it in your head that your gonna get cut, you'll train better, which means you'll fight better.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 2:46:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
Yes, Professional gunners do this Blading you think is so funny....THE SMALLER THE TARGET YOU PRESENT THEM THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO KILL YOU WHILE FIRING BACK UNDER STRESS!!

Common friggin sense!! Forget the whole Wal-Mart thing, the smaller target is harder to hit accurately.

They also told me something else to consider that makes combat easier, forget your fear of being hit in a gunfight, jsut figure that if you are in a gunfight, YOU WILL BE HIT! Then you can skip the fear and concentrate on killing the son of a bitch!!


Unless you're wearing body armor and plates. If you are, you present a catastrophic wound channel by blading (armpit to armpit). With body armor and plates you present the armor to the threat. As my CQB training predates effective body armor / plates, it was hard for me to learn.

Link Posted: 9/4/2009 2:46:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By molotov357:
Blading is not some make believe move that a retard in walmart conjured up.

It is taught to most military and police as a way to protect your weapon and get in a ready position.


I have never heard of this. Interesting. Never was told to do that.

Link Posted: 9/4/2009 5:42:33 AM EST
So my civilian (well, retired Marine with his retired LEO assistant) Level II Pistol instructor taught us to stay square to the target because it makes movement easier. "Moving along the X" is what he taught, so 45 degrees back left, back right, front left, and front right. For encounters with an assailant who is within striking distance (i.e., could grab your gun), he had us practice firing from the hip with one hand while keeping the other hand available to block, strike, scoop the wife and kids behind you, or to flip off your assailant. Whatever the case, the object was getting away from the situation.

The GB guy, of course, taught blading (he was in during the Kevlar days, so a 7.62 round would definitely penetrate). Staying square with modern body armor makes a ton of sense, but that's not how he was trained. He also taught the technique that I learned in the Marines, which is to advance towards the target while laying down heavy fire. The object here, of course, is to destroy the enemy, not escape him. Also, there's that "You can't outrun bullets" philosophy that tells you not to run, but to deal with the threat.

I guess my point here is, there's not much point in arguing technique. In another thread, I remember someone commenting that team member Anna Trocity, an MMA fighter, keeps her hands too low. She responded that she understands that, but had other ways to keep from getting hit. Watching her in action shows that, at least for the opponents I saw her fight, she was perfectly capable of destroying an opponent with her hands low. Sticklers for technique would argue that she's "doing it wrong," but the results show that it doesn't matter. Blading or not, either you win the gunfight or you do not.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 9:41:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By mastadon:
So my civilian (well, retired Marine with his retired LEO assistant) Level II Pistol instructor taught us to stay square to the target because it makes movement easier. "Moving along the X" is what he taught, so 45 degrees back left, back right, front left, and front right. For encounters with an assailant who is within striking distance (i.e., could grab your gun), he had us practice firing from the hip with one hand while keeping the other hand available to block, strike, scoop the wife and kids behind you, or to flip off your assailant. Whatever the case, the object was getting away from the situation.

The GB guy, of course, taught blading (he was in during the Kevlar days, so a 7.62 round would definitely penetrate). Staying square with modern body armor makes a ton of sense, but that's not how he was trained. He also taught the technique that I learned in the Marines, which is to advance towards the target while laying down heavy fire. The object here, of course, is to destroy the enemy, not escape him. Also, there's that "You can't outrun bullets" philosophy that tells you not to run, but to deal with the threat.

I guess my point here is, there's not much point in arguing technique. In another thread, I remember someone commenting that team member Anna Trocity, an MMA fighter, keeps her hands too low. She responded that she understands that, but had other ways to keep from getting hit. Watching her in action shows that, at least for the opponents I saw her fight, she was perfectly capable of destroying an opponent with her hands low. Sticklers for technique would argue that she's "doing it wrong," but the results show that it doesn't matter. Blading or not, either you win the gunfight or you do not.


In short, if its "wrong" but it works (you live, they die - or - you win, they lose) its not "wrong".

When it doesn't work, as Paul Poole said at Mott Lake: "Its a technique. Its not a good technice, but its a technique."
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 10:39:59 AM EST
Like Bigfoot - Blading is real!
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 10:45:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2009 9:34:29 AM EST by ddrongowski]
removed
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 11:06:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By fxntime:
Body armor has plate in front and back, not so much protection at the sides. I'd much rather take a hit in the plates then in the side panels.

Might have been very different in his day.

I'd have to agree with this.


Also, you're body is symmetrical down the center axis. if you square off to someone shooting at you, and took a hit, odds are that they will not destroy both of a pair of organs. Whereas if you turn to reduce profile, and they score that hit, then odds are they may get you in both lungs or both kidneys.

While i wouldn't want to get shot at all, i'd much rather have a ballistic plate between me and the aggressor, and god forbid it got thru, I'd rather lose 1 lung, and not both.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 11:11:37 AM EST
Blading guarantees you lose more organs if you do get hit.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 11:16:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By jonathan2421:
Blading guarantees you lose more organs if you do get hit.


Id say this makes more sense armor plates or not. Thats why the broadside shot on large game animals is optimal.

Blading only makes sense to keep the weapon retained up close.
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