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Posted: 8/13/2011 8:30:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 8:34:46 PM EDT by -Crusade-]
So if I live in a conceal carry & open carry State, and I do a poor job of concealing... and get busted for it, can I then say "hey I'm open carrying!" to avoid a ticket or something (and I have CHL while this senario occurs)

Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:35:28 PM EDT
Why don't you just get a carry permit?
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:36:27 PM EDT
I have one. Its a rhetorical question.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:36:46 PM EDT
Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:37:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
I have one. Its a rhetorical question.



Know your state laws.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:37:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
I have one. Its a rhetorical question.

You spelled retarded wrong.

Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:37:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hoodonit00:
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
I have one. Its a rhetorical question.

You spelled retarded wrong.



Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:38:22 PM EDT
I don't know what Utahs' carry laws are like but in Michigan it would not be an issue.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:38:39 PM EDT
It's more of a would that excuse fly question..
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:39:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 8:40:15 PM EDT by flyfishnepa]



the only way you'd get "busted" is if a police officer didn't know the carry laws and that would only be until they figured them out






 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:40:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Physics:
I don't know what Utahs' carry laws are like but in Michigan it would not be an issue.

I don't understand how it could be an issue. He can open carry, he can conceal carry, why would there be an issue?

Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:40:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
So if I live in a conceal carry & open carry State, and I do a poor job of concealing... and get busted for it, can I then say "hey I'm open carrying!" to avoid a ticket or something (and I have CHL while this senario occurs)



Wait. "Concealed carry+open carry", and "getting busted"?

Here I dont think the cops would give a damn unless you were toting where you shouldn't be.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:40:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
It's more of a would that excuse fly question..

Why would you need an excuse?

Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:42:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 8:43:54 PM EDT by -Crusade-]
Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:43:53 PM EDT



Originally Posted By -Crusade-:


It's more of a would that excuse fly question..


you wouldn't need an excuse in a state that has both open and concealed carry (with a chl)



you could switch between open carry and concealed carry every five minutes like a retard and it wouldn't be illegal





 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:44:25 PM EDT



Originally Posted By hoodonit00:



Originally Posted By -Crusade-:

I have one. Its a rhetorical question.


You spelled retarded wrong.



Thanks, I needed a laugh





 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 8:45:23 PM EDT by -Crusade-]
Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
It's more of a would that excuse fly question..

you wouldn't need an excuse in a state that has both open and concealed carry (with a chl)

you could switch between open carry and concealed carry every five minutes like a retard and it wouldn't be illegal

 


Does there lawfully need to be a clear distinction? (how is that a retarded question?)
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:45:02 PM EDT



Originally Posted By -Crusade-:


Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?


Not in my state. A CHP in Virginia just says you can conceal a handgun. Does not require you to conceal a handgun.



 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:45:52 PM EDT



Originally Posted By -Crusade-:


Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?


no,  a concealed carry license let's you carry concealed, it doesn't require you to carry concealed in a state that also has open carry





 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:46:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By novaDAK:

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?

Not in my state. A CHP in Virginia just says you can conceal a handgun. Does not require you to conceal a handgun.
 


I moved here from Texas that requires concealment.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:46:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 8:47:39 PM EDT by flyfishnepa]





Originally Posted By -Crusade-:





Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:


It's more of a would that excuse fly question..



you wouldn't need an excuse in a state that has both open and concealed carry (with a chl)





you could switch between open carry and concealed carry every five minutes like a retard and it wouldn't be illegal





 






Does there lawfully need to be a clear distinction? (how is that a retarded question?)



no, not in a state that has both concealed carry and open carry





i said "switch every 5 minutes like a retard", not that the question was retarded
 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:47:58 PM EDT



Originally Posted By -Crusade-:


Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?


You can do either in Utah if you have a CHL. You need to learn the laws better if you're going to pack bro.



 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:48:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?

no,  a concealed carry license let's you carry concealed, it doesn't require you to carry concealed in a state that also has open carry

 


Thank you. Question answered, and no thanks to the jackasses who try to insult other gun owners who are trying to learn a few things.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:48:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blackfire:

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?

You can do either in Utah if you have a CHL. You need to learn the laws better if you're going to pack bro.
 


Just moved from Texas.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:48:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
It's more of a would that excuse fly question..

you wouldn't need an excuse in a state that has both open and concealed carry (with a chl)

you could switch between open carry and concealed carry every five minutes like a retard and it wouldn't be illegal

 


Does there lawfully need to be a clear distinction? (how is that a retarded question?)

no, not in a state that has both concealed carry and open carry

i said "switch every 5 minutes like a retard", not that the question was retarded

 

That was directed at me.

Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:49:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 8:50:00 PM EDT by CombatMP]
If it isn't illegal to CCW or OC in your state, why would you be concerned about breaking the law when there isn't a law to break?


Enjoy your freedom.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:50:14 PM EDT



Originally Posted By -Crusade-:



Originally Posted By Blackfire:




Originally Posted By -Crusade-:

Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?


You can do either in Utah if you have a CHL. You need to learn the laws better if you're going to pack bro.

 




Just moved from Texas.


You're good to go. Don't sweat it. Utah is actually MORE gun friendly than Texas.



 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:50:27 PM EDT



Originally Posted By hoodonit00:



Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:




Originally Posted By -Crusade-:


Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:




Originally Posted By -Crusade-:

It's more of a would that excuse fly question..


you wouldn't need an excuse in a state that has both open and concealed carry (with a chl)



you could switch between open carry and concealed carry every five minutes like a retard and it wouldn't be illegal



 




Does there lawfully need to be a clear distinction? (how is that a retarded question?)


no, not in a state that has both concealed carry and open carry



i said "switch every 5 minutes like a retard", not that the question was retarded



 


That was directed at me.





oh







 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 8:53:51 PM EDT



Originally Posted By CombatMP:


If it isn't illegal to CCW or OC in your state, why would you be concerned about breaking the law when there isn't a law to break?





Enjoy your freedom.


We can open carry without permit as long as there is two movements to bring the gun to action. If it is an auto then that means a draw and manipulation of the slide. If it's a revolver then it means one chamber must be empty. If you have your CHL/CFL/CCW whatever then those movements are not needed AND you can carry concealed if you so wish. We also have more reciprocity with other states than any other state. Florida is either tied or close to us.



 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:12:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 9:16:08 PM EDT by sterling18]

Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
Originally Posted By Blackfire:
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:




Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?





You can do either in Utah if you have a CHL. You need to learn the laws better if you're going to pack bro.




 

Just moved from Texas.
Well, that's your problem, you spent time in Texas.  
Utah's gun laws are better than Texas's.  
Honestly, I CC'ed at the capital building while chaperoning a class field trip.  My CC got caught up and UHP came by and said, you're showing and left.
This was while watching my state legislature wave at the group of kids in the balcony.
ETA - Welcome to the Beehive State.





ETA 2- You do know the 1911 is the official state gun?
 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:15:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Crusade-:
Because when you have a CHL you are required to properly conceal, that was my understanding.  Could be ticketed for not properly concealing, must it be clear which option you are doing?


I don't know, I live in Arizona.  It's legal to carry however you want here.
The only people that seem to give a damn, are the ones who need to move the fuck away it seems.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:17:09 PM EDT
I think it would also depend on the method of concealment, yes? For example, an IWB like the supertuck, without a shirt over it, might be construed as brandishing (or something, ARFcom lawyers correct me please) as it is not truly being openly carried.

Someone correct me.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:26:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 9:27:40 PM EDT by novaDAK]





Originally Posted By beequewl:



I think it would also depend on the method of concealment, yes? For example, an IWB like the supertuck, without a shirt over it, might be construed as brandishing (or something, ARFcom lawyers correct me please) as it is not truly being openly carried.





Someone correct me.



Wouldn't be brandishing in VA. OCing while carrying in an IWB holster is called the "Virginia tuck" here because before the restaurant ban was repealed, people CCing had to switch to OC before entering a restaurant that served alcohol, usually by tucking their shirt behind the firearm.





As long as it was not "hidden from common observation" then it wasn't considered concealed due to how state law defines a concealed weapon. It's still defined the same way today but now we can carry concealed or open in any restaurant as long as you don't consume alcohol while CCing.





 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:31:26 PM EDT
You're fine. In utah you actually have to pull the firearm to be charged with brandishing.
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:33:26 PM EDT



Originally Posted By novaDAK:





Originally Posted By beequewl:

I think it would also depend on the method of concealment, yes? For example, an IWB like the supertuck, without a shirt over it, might be construed as brandishing (or something, ARFcom lawyers correct me please) as it is not truly being openly carried.



Someone correct me.


Wouldn't be brandishing in VA. OCing while carrying in an IWB holster is called the "Virginia tuck" here because before the restaurant ban was repealed, people CCing had to switch to OC before entering a restaurant that served alcohol, usually by tucking their shirt behind the firearm.



As long as it was not "hidden from common observation" then it wasn't considered concealed due to how state law defines a concealed weapon. It's still defined the same way today but now we can carry concealed or open in any restaurant as long as you don't consume alcohol while CCing.

 
Doesn't matter here. You can conceal it however you want. Brandishing the gun here is presenting the gun in a threatening manner, whether that be showing it in the holster or drawing it, but not aiming it at the person. You are permitted to do that if you feel sufficiently threatened, best along with a verbal warning that you are indeed armed and feeling threatened by said assailant. Personal restraint is always most important here.





 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:34:31 PM EDT



Originally Posted By jjwheeler2:


You're fine. In utah you actually have to pull the firearm to be charged with brandishing.


I thought they changed that within the last year to include showing it in the holster as a warning.



 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 9:48:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2011 9:48:45 PM EDT by sterling18]
According to my paperwork with BCI, this is as close to brandishing as I can find.





76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel. (1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include: (a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior which is threatening; or (b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a). (2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. (3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force: (a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or (b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.






So.... to be considered brandishing or threatening / threatening manner you have to have additional behavior besides just visible or unconcealed.





Eta - I'm not a lawyer, just someone who found some material in my paperwork for your review.
 
Link Posted: 8/13/2011 10:35:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hoodonit00:
Originally Posted By Physics:
I don't know what Utahs' carry laws are like but in Michigan it would not be an issue.

I don't understand how it could be an issue. He can open carry, he can conceal carry, why would there be an issue?



Link Posted: 8/13/2011 10:59:09 PM EDT



Originally Posted By sterling18:


According to my paperwork with BCI, this is as close to brandishing as I can find.



76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel. (1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include: (a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior which is threatening; or (b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a). (2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. (3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force: (a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or (b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.




So.... to be considered brandishing or threatening / threatening manner you have to have additional behavior besides just visible or unconcealed.





Eta - I'm not a lawyer, just someone who found some material in my paperwork for your review.



 
So basically an unwarranted action towards said weapon during the altercation. But it's neither here nor there towards OP's original inquiry. The point is, if he has a valid and accepted CHL (whether it be a Utah or an accepted out-of-state license) he may carry either way and not in any violation of the law, as I stated earlier.





 
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 12:08:01 AM EDT
Here in Indiana you have to have a LTCH but once you do, you can carry any handgun anyway you wish open or concealed. For that reason, when I am out and about, I don't make a huge effort to conceal my gun. Now with that being said, I would guess 90% or more of the time I am carrying concealed, it's concealed other than printing or the occasional times where I am loading something into a truck and the shirt comes up and over the gun, no biggie. I do open carry but those times are becoming few and far between.

If you had a cover garment over your pistol and didn't have a permit, I would think it could be the officers call. I wouldn't risk it especially with a kick ass permit that Utah has.
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 8:15:14 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Blackfire:





Originally Posted By sterling18:

According to my paperwork with BCI, this is as close to brandishing as I can find.



76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel. (1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include: (a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior which is threatening; or (b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a). (2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. (3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force: (a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or (b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.




So.... to be considered brandishing or threatening / threatening manner you have to have additional behavior besides just visible or unconcealed.





Eta - I'm not a lawyer, just someone who found some material in my paperwork for your review.



 
So basically an unwarranted action towards said weapon during the altercation. But it's neither here nor there towards OP's original inquiry. The point is, if he has a valid and accepted CHL (whether it be a Utah or an accepted out-of-state license) he may carry either way and not in any violation of the law, as I stated earlier.



 


Correct, or at least that's how it was taught in class and what's in the paperwork from BCI.  So it's not brandishing if you accidentally show but without an intent to threaten or used in a threatening manner.





 
Link Posted: 8/14/2011 8:19:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hoodonit00:
Why don't you just get a carry permit?


Reading is fundamental.
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