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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/24/2005 3:19:44 PM EDT
Louisiana, specifically New Orleans, survived pretty well. I'll remember this come elections. Hats off to my state's reps, governer, and mayor for a job well done.



Wednesday, August 24, 2005



New Orleans naval base saved
A federal commission voted today to keep a military base in Algiers and make it home to the Marine Corps Reserve headquarters as part of the federal city. However, the Naval Reserve commands would leave New Orleans.

Under a motion offered by retired Air Force Gen. James Hill, a member of the Base Realignment and Closure Commission, the Bywater portion of Naval Support Activity would close. Eight of nine commissioners voted in favor of the federal city concept; the nineth member abstained from voting.

The commission gave the state a deadline of Sept. 30, 2008, to have the federal city built, or else the Defense Department’s recommendation to close the base and move the Marines to the Naval Air Station-Joint Reserve Base in Belle Chasse would hold.

"I’m confident that will be done," U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., said of the state’s commitment to fund the federal city plan, which could cost as much as $200 million.
The base found itself on the Pentagon's proposed list of base closures in May. The list also proposed an expansion of the Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base, in Plaquemines Parish, by about 1,700 workers.

That proposal was scheduled for a vote later Wednesday by the Base Realignment and Closure Commission, which could accept, reject and alter the Pentagon's plans. The president and Congress each have veto power over the commission's final plan, but cannot alter it.

The state and the city of New Orleans pitched a plan to keep the naval base open and turn it into a center for military and homeland security operations — a so-called "federal city." State and city officials argued to the base closure commissioners that the federal city would combine military offices spread throughout the metropolitan area and provide a regional headquarters for the Department of Homeland Security.

Under the motion adopted by the base closure panel, the first tenants at the federal city would be two groups of Marine administrative support services, one now in New Orleans and the other in Kansas City, Mo.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco and Mayor Ray Nagin pledged at least $166 million in state and city bonds to pay to streamline the base.

Retired Gen. James Hill, who pushed an amendment to realign the base, said the federal city proposal made the most sense because it would cost the federal government nothing — "almost the biggest no-brainer out there," as Hill put it.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:20:55 PM EDT
Our Portsmough Shipyard stays open, but our Brunswick NAS is closing.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:03:10 PM EDT
That plan for a Fed City was started after the BRAC closing 6 years ago. Better spent money than giving it to the Saints.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:07:09 PM EDT
we got hit pretty hard. Lost Ft. Gillem, Ft. Mac, Navy Supply Corps School in Athens and NAS Atlanta. The ONLY installation in the metro area left untouched is Dobbins ARB. I won't be able to go to Athens for 12.99 fifths of Jack Daniels anymore.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:09:30 PM EDT
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:13:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
The military isn't here to support local economies.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:16:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.







Oh..Havent' been paying attention since Korea?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:18:41 PM EDT
... all your base are belong to us
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:20:06 PM EDT
Subase in Groton is staying.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:21:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.



+1

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:23:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.







Oh..Havent' been paying attention since Korea?


Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:27:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.



+1




BTW:

"Lighter, more mobile" military is a CONUS based force, forward DEPLOYED rather than forward BASED

Personally, I'd rather pay a GS-Whatever (PRobably a vet) to sweep floors or, wipe windows...or, whatever, than, fork over money to welfare...Which is a waste.

I love how people think places like Groton are a waste.

Wait until the next time we pay in blood becasue we have no cadre, or "Facilities"

No..It's never happened before, and, certainly, it won't happen again.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:29:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.







Oh..Havent' been paying attention since Korea?





Nothing. Never mind. I love pureist statments like that, Carry on.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:33:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

BTW:

"Lighter, more mobile" military is a CONUS based force, forward DEPLOYED rather than forward BASED

Personally, I'd rather pay a GS-Whatever (PRobably a vet) to sweep floors or, wipe windows...or, whatever, than, fork over money to welfare...Which is a waste.

I love how people think places like Groton are a waste.

Wait until the next time we pay in blood becasue we have no cadre, or "Facilities"

No..It's never happened before, and, certainly, it won't happen again.



There are many places that are huge wastes. The aforementioned NSCS Athens Ga was one of the. Pascagoula Mississippi? Waste. Ingleside, Texas had the unique quality of taking Mine Warfare away from fleet concentration areas; making mine warfare an out of sight, out of mind proposition. Oceana should have been moved to support readiness and training years ago. I can make the case either way for Groton. OTOH, I'm not in favor of closing shipyards, if we can help it.

We have a smaller force. We need to locate it where we can train together(Ingleside), and where we can train the way we need to train(Oceana).

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:35:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Nothing. Never mind. I love pureist statments like that, Carry on.


Well, if you would have simply stated that you believe closing bases risks a lower state of readiness like what happened between WWII and Korea, then I would know exactly what you meant. Instead you chose to be an ass.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:41:41 PM EDT
the pentagon should get what the pentagon wants.

if they want to close any facility, then we should do it.

military bases should not be pork barrel projects
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:43:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 4:44:15 PM EDT by Goonboss]

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Nothing. Never mind. I love pureist statments like that, Carry on.


Well, if you would have simply stated that you believe closing bases risks a lower state of readiness like what happened between WWII and Korea, then I would know exactly what you meant. Instead you chose to be an ass.



Well, that's your opinion, and, you're welcome to it.

I'm sure I'm the first person in ARFCOM history to answer a bit glibly to
a statment that has no more basis in fact than a fairy tale.

I'm not saying you're WRONG, but, I can't believe, off the top of my head you have anything other than opinion in saying all these places are "Wastes"

Sorry my laughy face offended you. I'll pick a more sensitive one next time.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:54:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Well, that's your opinion, and, you're welcome to it.

I'm sure I'm the first person in ARFCOM history to answer a bit glibly to
a statment that has no more basis in fact than a fairy tale.


Ever been to some of these places? Have you? I have. I've been to Pascagoula. It's claim to fame was we support operations with South American countries. NSCS Athens is about the size of a high school campus and can easily be absorbed into Newport RI.
Ingleside and the minesweeps. Well, I can count the number of ops with minesweepers with one hand, actually, I don't need a hand at all. You see at 12 knts of cruising speed Ingleside a quite a distance away from the fleet concentration areas of Jax and Norfolk. San Diego? Forgetaboutit. They make occasional sorties, but not very often. It's too expensive.
Oceana? Well, the 93 BRAC said Cecil Field was of greater military value, but they kept Oceana to support the F-14s. Now we don't have F-14s. The Navy didn't consider Cecil Field because it is no longer a DoD asset. So the Navy initially wanted to keep Oceana until they were able to plan a new master jet base. The leading locals were NC and GA.



I'm not saying you're WRONG, but, I can't believe, off the top of my head you have anything other than opinion in saying all these places are "Wastes"


They are my opinion based on operations with the units in question and/or being stationed there. It's not just my opinion. It's the opinion of the USN staff in the five-sided wind tunnel that forwarded these recommendations to Rummy, who forwarded them UNCHANGED, to the BRAC.



Sorry my laughy face offended you. I'll pick a more sensitive one next time.


It didn't offend me. However, you failed to communicate your position, and yet you attacked my position without basis. Now you defined your argument. That's fine. I rather enjoy debating these things. But a half-assed statement and a laughy face does not an argument make. It does indicate arrogance.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:58:32 PM EDT
Marine Corps Logistics Base in Barstow,CAlif(130 miles n. of Los Angeles) stands to lose 419 of its 1,720 jobs as some duties of the base will be shifted to other installations across the United States.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:10:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By passgas55:
That plan for a Fed City was started after the BRAC closing 6 years ago. Better spent money than giving it to the Saints.



As much as I hate to see the Saints get state money I'm blinded from reason for my love of football.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:11:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

There are many places that are huge wastes. The aforementioned NSCS Athens Ga was one of the. Pascagoula Mississippi? Waste. Ingleside, Texas had the unique quality of taking Mine Warfare away from fleet concentration areas; making mine warfare an out of sight, out of mind proposition. Oceana should have been moved to support readiness and training years ago. I can make the case either way for Groton. OTOH, I'm not in favor of closing shipyards, if we can help it.

We have a smaller force. We need to locate it where we can train together(Ingleside), and where we can train the way we need to train(Oceana).




Agree with most of what you say - ops normal I guess. Oceana does support some non-fighter missions that are extremely important and extremely dark as was referred to in yesterday's Early Bird. Believe the article was pulled from the Virginian-Pilot. Cecil was rated as having higher military value in '93, but Oceana lived in large part because of missions it supports that people don't know about.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:12:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Well, that's your opinion, and, you're welcome to it.

I'm sure I'm the first person in ARFCOM history to answer a bit glibly to
a statment that has no more basis in fact than a fairy tale.


Ever been to some of these places? Have you? I have. I've been to Pascagoula. It's claim to fame was we support operations with South American countries. NSCS Athens is about the size of a high school campus and can easily be absorbed into Newport RI.
Ingleside and the minesweeps. Well, I can count the number of ops with minesweepers with one hand, actually, I don't need a hand at all. You see at 12 knts of cruising speed Ingleside a quite a distance away from the fleet concentration areas of Jax and Norfolk. San Diego? Forgetaboutit. They make occasional sorties, but not very often. It's too expensive.
Oceana? Well, the 93 BRAC said Cecil Field was of greater military value, but they kept Oceana to support the F-14s. Now we don't have F-14s. The Navy didn't consider Cecil Field because it is no longer a DoD asset. So the Navy initially wanted to keep Oceana until they were able to plan a new master jet base. The leading locals were NC and GA.



I'm not saying you're WRONG, but, I can't believe, off the top of my head you have anything other than opinion in saying all these places are "Wastes"


They are my opinion based on operations with the units in question and/or being stationed there. It's not just my opinion. It's the opinion of the USN staff in the five-sided wind tunnel that forwarded these recommendations to Rummy, who forwarded them UNCHANGED, to the BRAC.



Sorry my laughy face offended you. I'll pick a more sensitive one next time.


It didn't offend me. However, you failed to communicate your position, and yet you attacked my position without basis. Now you defined your argument. That's fine. I rather enjoy debating these things. But a half-assed statement and a laughy face does not an argument make. It does indicate arrogance.



Hmmm...I guess alomst every member of the board is arrogant then...

Which may be true.

I'm not privy to your high level knowledge, so, I'll bow to it.

I simply point to above...

Employing people and supporting infrastructure..

(I refuse to believe type "A" Fighter can't be supported at type
"B" facility.)

Is not inherently more "wasteful" than welfare, or countless other
programs that saw my wife's druggie freinds eat better than my family did when I was in the Army.

Nothing better than getting leftovers from coke-heads.

BRAC is a joke. A bad Joke.

Red River Closed? Yeah. Good Idea.

Shipyards closed? Yeah. Good idea.

It didn't happen, but, it was reccommended. Sounds like they are really thinking it through.

As for Groton...

No way we'll EVER see a superpower again..So, I guess, close that bad boy. Certainly won't need a facility like that.


Ya know, never mind.........We never learn, why should we start now?

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:14:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.




agreed. I think BRAC was necessary but I also think they put more bases on the list than they needed knowing that they'd have to compromise on some.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:24:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:



BRAC is a joke. A bad Joke.

Red River Closed? Yeah. Good Idea.

Shipyards closed? Yeah. Good idea.

It didn't happen, but, it was reccommended. Sounds like they are really thinking it through.

As for Groton...

No way we'll EVER see a superpower again..So, I guess, close that bad boy. Certainly won't need a facility like that.


Ya know, never mind.........We never learn, why should we start now?




So keep it all open right. I can't understand why people have so much trouble understanding the idea of an imperfect solution and the acceptance of some uncertainty (risk) in order to facilitate a better outcome.

Is there risk in closing Groton or a shipyard or some other facility. Absolutely.

Is there risk in keeping those facilities open, thereby expending fiscal resources on them that would not then be available for recapitalizing the force, funding training, or paying for more personnel. Absolutely.

It is not just a game of dice rolling and playing God. If you don't like the decision to close a particular base, then fine, it is your right to disagree. Please enlighten the crowd with your alternative plan to make up those funds so that they guys who manage all of that risk will be able to go ahead with their plans to transform the force. Oh and please don't say things like "take it from foreign aid" or "take it from welfare" because in the case of the former the DoD budget absolutely dwarfs any other piece of discretionary spending such as foreign aid and in the latter because that is entitlement spending i.e. the government is required by law to spend that money in the exact way that it is. Those are not solutions or suggestions, they are hyperbole and though they make you feel good, they are useless in the real world.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:12:46 AM EDT


anyone know if the F16 air guard unit at Ellington Field was spared ??
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:26:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
I think the better question is how did the nation's defense fair today. The military isn't here to support local economies. That's a byproduct of our real mission, to protect the nation from its enemies. If we have a Cold War infrastructure supporting a lighter more mobile military then we are wasting taxpayer money.




Very well said.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:29:23 AM EDT

That plan for a Fed City was started after the BRAC closing 6 years ago. Better spent money than giving it to the Saints.


+1000 on that. The Saints and Benson have been playing us for a fool for years.
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