User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:11:39 PM EDT
As I prepare to go to VPI&SU this coming Saturday, I started wondering... Why do most military colleges have uniforms styled after West Point's? Is it just because of tradition or expectations? I noticed Texas A&M switched to their own thing uniform in 1914, according to Wiki. Just something I've always wondered, and now that I'll be wearing one, intrigues me more...
Examples... West Point: 
Air Force Academy (Admittedly, a very modern take on the uniform style, but obviously a take nonetheless) 
Even the Naval Academy has some similar stylings... 
VTCC  (Me by the end of the week!) Alot less influence than the others mostly due to the zippered jacket sans all those buttons.
VMI (I believe I am now contractually obligated to post *BOO* every time they're mentioned.  )
The Citadel 
Not an example... Texas A&M: 
Props to them for blazing their own trail right through the forest at the very least!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:15:08 PM EDT
[#1]
In a word? History.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:15:49 PM EDT
[#2]
In.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:18:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
In a word? History. I was thinking to distinguish civilian university attending ROTC cadets from those who've attended Senior or Junior Military Colleges or Service Academies...
Actually, I will get to wear my AFROTC uniform on Tuesdays once one is issued.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:27:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Military academy uniforms are not styled after West Point. Rather, they are adapted from the military dress of the 19th Century. The shako helmets worn by cadets of The Citadel or VMI goes back to the Napoleonic era. Tight fitting jackets were the style of that period and even in the Civil War (unless the soldier was in the field at which point he got whatever could be had).
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:41:59 PM EDT
[#5]
These type uniforms are all over the world not just the US,England use all red forgot want France use.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:49:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Silly people stuck on doing things because someone else used to.
The emphasis should be on what is being used now |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:49:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Cool picture thread.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:53:55 PM EDT
[#8]
The crossed belts are for the cartridge box and bayonet. Ironically, officers from the time period the uniforms originated, did not wear crossed belts, because they carried a sword, so only a single belt over the shoulder (a baldric, though usually much narrower). Some cavalty and infantry also wore only a single belt. The sashes also originally had a practical purpose - they served to pad the rather narrow wait belt since it typically held the sword. US troops traditionally wore gray from the War of 1812 until shortly before the Civil War, West Point just never changed. Before the mid 1800s, there really weren't too many colors that you could affordably die uniforms - almost all countries went with some variant of white, blue or red, gray not being considered very military as many civilian clothes were gray or black. Green was used, but it never worked very well, because the available dyes sucked. Also, the whole point of uniforms then was to be seen, not hidden.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:54:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Hank Hill's dad went to A&M?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 1:40:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Silly people stuck on doing things because someone else used to. The emphasis should be on what is being used now ...For military dress? No. Hell, I would be extremely happy if the AF reverted back to the old Hap Arnold jacket for dress blues. It's about heritage and history. "Modernizing" our dress uniform is one of the stupidest things the USAF has done to our appearance, and it shows very clearly that we do not value our history and are trying very hard to abandon it. Just look at the new "Hap Arnold" wings (if they can even be called that anymore...). It's some disgusting cyber-future-techno-assfucked piece of crap emblazoned on everything USAF. The classic Hap Arnold wings had history and heritage. I wouldn't be surprised if we change it again in the next couple years just to "keep up with the times". It's pathetic really, how hard the AF tries to be the hip new military. Show some fucking pride in yourselves, USAF. My own branch makes me very sad and ashamed to be a part of it...  |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 2:01:31 AM EDT
[#11]
Norwich uniforms look similiar to the Citadel uniforms.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 2:07:03 AM EDT
[#12]
Those are all stylized dress and ceremonial uniforms.
You won't go to any of those campuses and find those uniforms being used on a day to day basis unless there is a need for them for an event. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 2:12:18 AM EDT
[#13]
All I have to add is that Aggie boots are HOT in the summer
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 2:14:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Forgot to include Norwich.
They stopped issuing the Class As that year (grey tunic like West Point's). There was also another blue dress uniform (also a tunic with yellow piping) but I only saw it in photos there and not being worn by anybody. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 2:24:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Those are all stylized dress and ceremonial uniforms. You won't go to any of those campuses and find those uniforms being used on a day to day basis unless there is a need for them for an event. Texas A & M Corps of Cadets wear their uniforms on a daily basis. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 3:17:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Forgot to include Norwich. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/bigstick61/IMG_4577.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/bigstick61/Rookbuddies.jpg They stopped issuing the Class As that year (grey tunic like West Point's). There was also another blue dress uniform (also a tunic with yellow piping) but I only saw it in photos there and not being worn by anybody. We only wore the blue dress uniform when we had a military ball, or a big parade. Typical uniform was grey trowsers with a white short or long sleeve shirt with shoulder board rank. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 3:25:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Look at which one came first.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 10:54:54 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Silly people stuck on doing things because someone else used to. The emphasis should be on what is being used now ...For military dress? No. Hell, I would be extremely happy if the AF reverted back to the old Hap Arnold jacket for dress blues. It's about heritage and history. "Modernizing" our dress uniform is one of the stupidest things the USAF has done to our appearance, and it shows very clearly that we do not value our history and are trying very hard to abandon it. Just look at the new "Hap Arnold" wings (if they can even be called that anymore...). It's some disgusting cyber-future-techno-assfucked piece of crap emblazoned on everything USAF. The classic Hap Arnold wings had history and heritage. I wouldn't be surprised if we change it again in the next couple years just to "keep up with the times". It's pathetic really, how hard the AF tries to be the hip new military. Show some fucking pride in yourselves, USAF. My own branch makes me very sad and ashamed to be a part of it...
I really liked the Billy Mitchell heritage uniform! Really spiffy if you ask me! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 11:00:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Military academy uniforms are not styled after West Point. Rather, they are adapted from the military dress of the 19th Century. The shako helmets worn by cadets of The Citadel or VMI goes back to the Napoleonic era. Tight fitting jackets were the style of that period and even in the Civil War (unless the soldier was in the field at which point he got whatever could be had). It's a very traditional look. Obviously not suitable for the battle field anymore, but probably the sharpest looking uniforms ever in history. USMC Blues are also a more modernized version but probably draw from the same historical inspiration. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 11:02:20 AM EDT
[#20]
Get used to the dress uniform, you will wear it something like every Friday. Good news is if we win football games you get to wear BDUs on Monday...
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 11:17:16 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Get used to the dress uniform, you will wear it something like every Friday. Good news is if we win football games you get to wear BDUs on Monday... I'm looking forward to it, but I'm not looking forward to the PT aspects of NCW... Though Lord knows I need it! I just hope that I'm not the worst one out there...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 11:45:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Because tight clothes, banded collars and lots of buttons look great?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 11:59:48 AM EDT
[#23]
Aggie Corps Class of 2002
Whoop!!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/10/2011 12:04:05 PM EDT
[#24]
^
Whoop! -Fightin' Texas Aggie Corps of Cadets class of 2010 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 4:40:12 AM EDT
[#25]
My senior thesis at Nowich (NUCC 07) was on the Norwich uniform from 1819-WW2. When I get home from work I will fill you in if you like. Basically it comes down to this, Norwich, the first private military college was founded by q former West Point commandant. Make sense? The policy now is that Norwich wears the utility uniform of the United States Army, hence why they now wear ACUs for utilities.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 4:48:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
My senior thesis at Nowich (NUCC 07) was on the Norwich uniform from 1819-WW2. When I get home from work I will fill you in if you like. Basically it comes down to this, Norwich, the first private military college was founded by q former West Point commandant. Make sense? The policy now is that Norwich wears the utility uniform of the United States Army, hence why they now wear ACUs for utilities. Ah backup has arrived. Gotta have someone around to help beat the Texas A&M guys back
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 5:01:10 AM EDT
[#27]
There are more of us. Forrest is an alum from around the time we were born
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 5:03:28 AM EDT
[#28]
History/Tradition
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 9:31:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
My senior thesis at Nowich (NUCC 07) was on the Norwich uniform from 1819-WW2. When I get home from work I will fill you in if you like. Basically it comes down to this, Norwich, the first private military college was founded by q former West Point commandant. Make sense? The policy now is that Norwich wears the utility uniform of the United States Army, hence why they now wear ACUs for utilities. I'd love to hear more about that. History has always been one of my favorite pasttimes... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 9:37:34 AM EDT
[#30]
I can't speak for the rest of the academies, but that USAFA graduation uniform was worn exactly ONCE. They also have a fancy "mess dress" uniform, but the vast majority of the time they wear blues or ABUs.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 9:41:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Military academy uniforms are not styled after West Point. Rather, they are adapted from the military dress of the 19th Century. The shako helmets worn by cadets of The Citadel or VMI goes back to the Napoleonic era. Tight fitting jackets were the style of that period and even in the Civil War (unless the soldier was in the field at which point he got whatever could be had). The truth: he tells it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 9:49:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Military academy uniforms are not styled after West Point. Rather, they are adapted from the military dress of the 19th Century. The shako helmets worn by cadets of The Citadel or VMI goes back to the Napoleonic era. Tight fitting jackets were the style of that period and even in the Civil War (unless the soldier was in the field at which point he got whatever could be had). Correct- they all are using the same traditional military model of their time, not one based on another school (at least not one on this continent). And that history and traditional covers a lot of things we still see on many of those uniforms today: Why are there large buttons on the sleeves of the dress uniforms? To keep soldiers from wiping their snotty noses with the sleeves and wrecking their dress uniform. Why are VMI's colors red, white and yellow? Those were the original branch colors for artillery, infantry and cavalry officers. Quoted:
Those are all stylized dress and ceremonial uniforms. You won't go to any of those campuses and find those uniforms being used on a day to day basis unless there is a need for them for an event. At least at VMI, grey blouse is worn for every supper, and the coatee is worn at least every week. Classes and drill use simpler uniforms, absolutely- but the old-style dress ones get a lot more wear than one might think. Much to the chagrin of those who actually have to wear them... And I don't understand why a VaTech cadet would think he needs to boo VMI- nobody at VMI pays the slightest attention to anything Tech is doing... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 9:49:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Yeah, the USNA is just copying West Point.
(Admiral Porter, portrait cerca the Civil War) Military history: the OP needs to study it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 10:03:32 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
... US troops traditionally wore gray from the War of 1812 until shortly before the Civil War, West Point just never changed. ... Definitely not true on the former, and the story I always heard on the later was West Point went to gray to honor Winfield Scott's 6th Infantry Regiment at Chippawa. Either way, the very existence of the Chippawa "Those are Regulars, by God" story reflects that the standard uniform of the US Army was not gray - as that was considered a color for the militia. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:02:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
... US troops traditionally wore gray from the War of 1812 until shortly before the Civil War, West Point just never changed. ... Definitely not true on the former, and the story I always heard on the later was West Point went to gray to honor Winfield Scott's 6th Infantry Regiment at Chippawa. Either way, the very existence of the Chippawa "Those are Regulars, by God" story reflects that the standard uniform of the US Army was not gray - as that was considered a color for the militia. Some regular troops wore grey during the War of 1812 but I think that may have had something to do with dye shortages. But you are right, grey was not standard during that period. Depending on branch, in the field dark blue or sky blue uniforms were worn until the 1850s when everyone wore dark blue. For dress uniforms it was always dark blue. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:09:38 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... US troops traditionally wore gray from the War of 1812 until shortly before the Civil War, West Point just never changed. ... Definitely not true on the former, and the story I always heard on the later was West Point went to gray to honor Winfield Scott's 6th Infantry Regiment at Chippawa. Either way, the very existence of the Chippawa "Those are Regulars, by God" story reflects that the standard uniform of the US Army was not gray - as that was considered a color for the militia. Some regular troops wore grey during the War of 1812 but I think that may have had something to do with dye shortages. But you are right, grey was not standard during that period. Depending on branch, in the field dark blue or sky blue uniforms were worn until the 1850s when everyone wore dark blue. For dress uniforms it was always dark blue. The dye shortages thing might very well explain why Scott's troops were uniformed as they were. I don't have any regs going back further than the 1840s, since all the US Army history research I ever really did was for my old Regiment (US Mounted Rifles, now 3d ACR). I know their uniforms have been dark blue from the get go. I used to have the actual reg prescribing the shade of blue for pants and top, when I had more energy to fight the unending parade of people claiming the reason for the two tone uniform was because the pants faded to a light blue in the Indian Wars days, and then afterwards the change was made to honor that time period. Complete nonsense, but it gets repeated often. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:17:03 AM EDT
[#37]
What is the history or significance of the chin strap at the lip.....rather than the chin.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:23:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
What is the history or significance of the chin strap at the lip.....rather than the chin. That's a very good question - I have only seen that in modern times, all the painting and prints I have seen from the 19th century show chine straps being used at the, well, chin. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:25:13 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What is the history or significance of the chin strap at the lip.....rather than the chin. That's a very good question - I have only seen that in modern times, all the painting and prints I have seen from the 19th century show chine straps being used at the, well, chin. http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=15945 Someone probably thought it looked cool, and not all chin straps made today are able to be used as originally intended anyways. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:34:59 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... US troops traditionally wore gray from the War of 1812 until shortly before the Civil War, West Point just never changed. ... Definitely not true on the former, and the story I always heard on the later was West Point went to gray to honor Winfield Scott's 6th Infantry Regiment at Chippawa. Either way, the very existence of the Chippawa "Those are Regulars, by God" story reflects that the standard uniform of the US Army was not gray - as that was considered a color for the militia. Some regular troops wore grey during the War of 1812 but I think that may have had something to do with dye shortages. But you are right, grey was not standard during that period. Depending on branch, in the field dark blue or sky blue uniforms were worn until the 1850s when everyone wore dark blue. For dress uniforms it was always dark blue. The dye shortages thing might very well explain why Scott's troops were uniformed as they were. I don't have any regs going back further than the 1840s, since all the US Army history research I ever really did was for my old Regiment (US Mounted Rifles, now 3d ACR). I know their uniforms have been dark blue from the get go. I used to have the actual reg prescribing the shade of blue for pants and top, when I had more energy to fight the unending parade of people claiming the reason for the two tone uniform was because the pants faded to a light blue in the Indian Wars days, and then afterwards the change was made to honor that time period. Complete nonsense, but it gets repeated often. While the Regiment of Mounted Riflemen wore dark blue in the 1840s they were hardly alone, although they are the only ones other than general officers and their staff that I can think of that wore all dark blue in the field; other horse-mounted troops, except light artillery I think, wore a dark blue shell jacket with sky blue trousers. Pretty much everyone else wore all sky blue uniforms. That practice predates the 1840s. I believe that started in the 1820s when the uniform regs were changed from the types used with little change since the War of 1812, which were dark blue over white. I think due to the aforementioned dye shortages sky blue uniforms were used as well as grey during the war. I also get annoyed by that myth about where the trouser colour comes from. The use of such a trouser colour with a dark blue coat actually predates the establishment of American dragoon regiments in the 1830s. These kinds of myths seem very common in all of the services and sometimes people can get very defensive aboutthem, such as the "blood stripe" of the USMC, whereby the myth goes that it was prescribed to be worn by officers and NCOs because of the heavy leadership casualties at the Battle of Chapultepec. The problem with that myth, of course, is that red trouser striped were already being worn by officers and NCOs by the time of the battle and had been for some time, as that was the normal practice of the day and the stripes usually matched the primary colour of the uniform trim, which was scarlet for the USMC, with yellow as a secondary colour. Another one is the idea that the 13 buttons on the fly of USN trousers represent the original 13 States when this is not true at all, and the button number has changes over time depending on the patter in use during a period. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:38:48 AM EDT
[#41]
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools!
So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:48:53 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Quite possibly - which story is that? It's the kind of stuff that drives military historians nuts - especially the official ones on the same post, that often have actual uniforms - and even original regs - that disprove the nonsense. Our history as is is fascinating, I can't for the life of me figure out why people make shit up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:50:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Yes, it is bogus. It was just a popular style at the time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 11:55:57 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Yes, it is bogus. It was just a popular style at the time. Well, in a week I'll have to launch into a tirade and set them straight every time I hear a cadre cadet spouting such nonsense.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 12:00:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Yes, it is bogus. It was just a popular style at the time. Well, in a week I'll have to launch into a tirade and set them straight every time I hear a cadre cadet spouting such nonsense. You at VMI? I wouldn't be surprised of your library or museum has real historical stuff worth knowing. Do you have a historian? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 12:00:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
As I prepare to go to VPI&SU this coming Saturday, I started wondering... Why do most military colleges have uniforms styled after West Point's? Is it just because of tradition or expectations? I noticed Texas A&M switched to their own thing uniform in 1914, according to Wiki. Just something I've always wondered, and now that I'll be wearing one, intrigues me more... VMI (I believe I am now contractually obligated to post *BOO* every time they're mentioned. )
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Vmi_164.jpg Have fun at your make believe military college. You tech cadets seriously make me sick. Too bad you couldn't get into a real military school like VMI. VMI 07. out.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 12:02:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Yes, it is bogus. It was just a popular style at the time. Well, in a week I'll have to launch into a tirade and set them straight every time I hear a cadre cadet spouting such nonsense. You at VMI? I wouldn't be surprised of your library or museum has real historical stuff worth knowing. Do you have a historian? Yes, we do and he is AWESOME in terms of his knowledge of this type of stuff. But he is crazy busy, with us just acquiring Stonewall Jackson's house and some other large historical work. He is sadly pretty removed from most of our cadets and their lives. I try not to bother him too often... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 12:04:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Yes, it is bogus. It was just a popular style at the time. Well, in a week I'll have to launch into a tirade and set them straight every time I hear a cadre cadet spouting such nonsense. You at VMI? I wouldn't be surprised of your library or museum has real historical stuff worth knowing. Do you have a historian? Yes, we do and he is AWESOME in terms of his knowledge of this type of stuff. But he is crazy busy, with us just acquiring Stonewall Jackson's house and some other large historical work. He is sadly pretty removed from most of our cadets and their lives. I try not to bother him too often... Its a shame - sometimes those guys are crazy bored, and will talk your ear off if you let 'em - since nobody ever stops in. Sounds like your guy is kept a little busier. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good grief, I've heard and been told all of those myths- including at official schools! So is my explanation of the sleeve buttons bogus too? Say it isn't so... Yes, it is bogus. It was just a popular style at the time. Well, in a week I'll have to launch into a tirade and set them straight every time I hear a cadre cadet spouting such nonsense. You at VMI? I wouldn't be surprised of your library or museum has real historical stuff worth knowing. Do you have a historian? The Norwich library had all sorts of nice stuff. I used to spend most of the little free time I had there. If you want uniforms regs, they have just about everything in their library. They also have old military manuals going back to the 19th century. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2011 12:29:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: All I have to add is that Aggie boots are HOT in the summer Damn skippy! I still wish I could get away with wearing them, they are awesome. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
