Cool.

I can live with that.

In Midcareer, a Turn to Faith to Fill a Void
By EDWARD WYATT and SIMON ROMERO

DALLAS, Oct. 4 - By 1979, Harriet E. Miers, then in her mid-30's, had accomplished what some people take a lifetime to achieve. She was a partner at Locke Purnell Boren Laney & Neely, one of the most prestigious law firms in the South, with an office on the 35th floor of the Republic National Bank Tower in downtown Dallas.

But she still felt something was missing in her life, and it was after a series of long discussions - rambling conversations about family and religion and other matters that typically stretched from early evening into the night - with Nathan L. Hecht, a junior colleague at the law firm, that she made a decision that many of the people around her say changed her life.

"She decided that she wanted faith to be a bigger part of her life," Justice Hecht, who now serves on the Texas Supreme Court, said in an interview. "One evening she called me to her office and said she was ready to make a commitment" to accept Jesus Christ as her savior and be born again, he said. He walked down the hallway from his office to hers, and there amid the legal briefs and court papers, Ms. Miers and Justice Hecht "prayed and talked," he said.

She was baptized not long after that, at the Valley View Christian Church.

It was a pivotal personal transformation for the woman now named for a seat on the United States Supreme Court, not entirely unlike that experienced by President Bush and others in the Texas political and business establishment of that time.

Ms. Miers, born Roman Catholic, became an evangelical Christian and began identifying more with Republicans than with the Democrats who had long held sway over Texas politics. She joined the missions committee of her church, which is against legalized abortion, and friends and colleagues say she rarely looked back at her past as a Democrat.

"There weren't that many Republicans in Texas in those days," said Merrie Spaeth, a director of media relations at the White House under Ronald Reagan who met Ms. Miers after moving to Dallas in 1985. "Harriet is what you would call a Southern lady. It is marvelous to watch her in meetings with huge egos, where she allows people to think good results are the product of their own ideas."

To persuade the right to embrace Ms. Miers's selection despite her lack of a clear record on social issues, representatives of the White House put Justice Hecht on at least one conference call with influential social conservative organizers on Monday to talk about her faith and character.

Some evangelical Protestants were heralding the possibility that one of their own would have a seat on the court after decades of complaining that their brand of Christianity met condescension and exclusion from the American establishment.

In an interview Tuesday on the televangelist Pat Robertson's "700 Club," Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the Christian conservative American Center for Law and Justice, said Ms. Miers would be the first evangelical Protestant on the court since the 1930's. "So this is a big opportunity for those of us who have a conviction, that share an evangelical faith in Christianity, to see someone with our positions put on the court," Mr. Sekulow said.

But other conservatives were unappeased, looking for someone with clearly stated public commitments on social issues like abortion.

While Ms. Miers rarely wore her religious thinking on her sleeve, her gradual tilt toward conservative views resulted in some uneasy moments when she took a break from a lucrative law practice and delved into politics with a campaign for the Dallas City Council in 1989, running for a nonpartisan post. She appeared as a candidate at the Dallas Gay and Lesbian Political Caucus, but even though she said gays should have the same civil rights as others in society, she stopped short of endorsing a repeal of a Texas law criminalizing gay sexual activity.

Religion appears to have influenced her views on certain subjects. In a discussion with her campaign manager in 1989, Ms. Miers said she had been in favor in her younger years of a woman's right to have an abortion, but her views evolved against abortion, influenced largely by her born-again religious beliefs, said Lorlee Bartos, a Democratic campaign consultant in Dallas who managed Ms. Miers's City Council campaign.

"She was someone whose view had shifted, and she explained that to me," Ms. Bartos said.

Still, pragmatism, not ideology, seems to have guided Ms. Miers on most issues in her brief period in public office before she went on in 1995 to be named by Gov. George W. Bush to head the Texas State Lottery and then followed him to Washington.

One of the most controversial issues before the Dallas City Council during Ms. Miers's single term that ended in 1991 was a battle over whether the city should adopt a plan doing away with council members elected at large, an election method that minority groups in Dallas criticized as marginalizing them from municipal politics.

Ms. Miers, elected as an at-large council member, initially favored the at-large system, but her position evolved to support a proposal that would create a collection of different districts in the city. This was adopted and eventually led to greater representation of blacks and Hispanics in Dallas.

While known as a moderate conservative, "Harriet didn't really distinguish herself," said Domingo Garcia, a lawyer who was elected to the Council in the early 1990's after the bitter redistricting fight. "She wasn't a leader and wasn't furniture," said Mr. Garcia, a former mayoral candidate in Dallas and the national civil rights chairman for the League of United Latin American Citizens. "She was in between."

And yet Ms. Miers, known for her thorough study of the issues before the Council, acquired the grudging respect of some colleagues across the political spectrum. "You might think she's a pushover because she looks meek and humble," said Al Lipscomb, a former city council member. "But can America handle a Republican conservative who's fair? She is a tigress when it comes to the law."

The Dallas of political battles over minority and gay rights, of course, was substantially different from the predominantly white and segregated city where she was born the fourth of five children. Few schools were more emblematic of the old Dallas than Hillcrest High School, from which Ms. Miers graduated in 1963.

"It was a school in the sense like schools were supposed to be," said Ron Natinsky, a classmate of Ms. Miers who is now on the Dallas City Council, referring to an atmosphere of respect and decorum. "Teachers were addressed as ma'am or sir."

The strait-laced student body at Hillcrest was also almost entirely white, with integration in that part of Dallas several years off when Ms. Miers graduated, Mr. Natinsky said. Her yearbook from 1963 shows photographs of a blond, smiling senior, described by classmates as "efficient, sweet and sincere, good at sports from what we hear." Mr. Natinsky remembered her as someone involved in clubs and school activities, but not part of the "cool crowd."

"She was almost an unseen person at school," Mr. Natinsky said.

Ms. Miers sometimes attended Mass at St. Jude Chapel in downtown Dallas, but before embracing evangelical Protestantism, her experience with religion was lukewarm and her attendance sporadic, Justice Hecht said.

Her friends say that there is much about her world experience that shapes her attitudes and views, from her rise in a male-dominated legal profession to her years of loyalty and counsel to Mr. Bush in Texas and Washington.

But as important as her professional trajectory, friends and family of Ms. Miers say, is the influence of religion on her approach to issues of political and legal importance. After joining Valley View Christian Church, she began teaching a Sunday night class for first, second and third graders at the church, called Whirlybirds.

Vickie Wilson, the office manager at Valley View, knew Ms. Miers from the time she began attending the church in 1979; Ms. Wilson's two daughters, now 27 and 30, were in Ms. Miers's Sunday youth group. Even though it was known that she was a high-powered lawyer in Dallas, "she never used the church to further her political career," Ms. Wilson said.

"She never took a role where she was trying to stand out front," Ms. Wilson said. "She put herself in servant roles, making coffee every Sunday morning and putting doughnuts out."

A close relationship with Justice Hecht - also a longtime member of Valley View - who frequently appears with Ms. Miers at social functions in Washington and in Texas, has been a steady feature of her life for nearly 30 years. Justice Hecht is known as one of the most conservative members of the Republican-dominated Texas Supreme Court.

Newspapers in Texas have reported that Justice Hecht and Ms. Miers were romantically involved, and when asked in an interview whether that was still the case, Justice Hecht responded that they were close, without going into great detail. "She works in Washington, I work in Austin," Justice Hecht said. "We have dinner when she's here; if she invites me to Washington I happily go. We talk on the phone all the time."

Justice Hecht and Ms. Miers spoke on Sunday evening, but she did not tell him about the pending announcement that she had been offered the nomination, he said. "She's a stickler for the rules," he said. He never asked Ms. Miers how she would vote on the issue of abortion if it came before the Supreme Court, he said. "She probably wouldn't answer, she wouldn't view it as appropriate."

"Yes, she goes to a pro-life church," Justice Hecht said, adding, "I know Harriet is, too." The two attended "two or three" anti-abortion fund-raising dinners in the early 1990's, he said, but added that she had not otherwise been active in the anti-abortion movement. "You can be just as pro-life as the day is long and can decide the Constitution requires Roe" to be upheld, he said.

Apart from the questions about abortion and other issues Ms. Miers will face in confirmation hearings, the strong tie she and Justice Hecht have to their church is undergoing a test. The congregation at Valley View is in the middle of a schism, and Mr. Hecht said he and Ms. Miers are siding with the splinter groups that are forming a new church under Valley View's longtime pastor, Ron Key.

Church members said in interviews that Mr. Key was fired several weeks ago by the Valley View board of elders after he refused to take a less prominent role in the church's leadership. The members said that the pastor and the board members disagreed on several matters, including the appointments of new ministers and whether the church should adopt more contemporary forms of worship services to try to attract newer and younger members.

Dr. Barry McCarty, the Valley View pastor, said Ms. Miers has often asked the congregation to pray for her and the president, and he added that even if she is joining the roughly 150 members that have left to start a new church, he believes that the Valley View members will continue those prayers. "Our particular congregation is committed to starting new churches," Dr. McCarty said. "It's something they do with our blessing."

David D. Kirkpatrick contributed reporting from Washington for this article.

www.nytimes.com/2005/10/05/politics/politicsspecial1/05miers.html?ei=5065&en=0ac6e45221c7da19&ex=1129089600&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun

Quoted: Cool. I can live with that.

I am about as fundamentalist as an Evangelical Christian can get.

Still, there are lots of EC's that I don't want near a court.

I want a certain judicial philosophy in that court, and being an EC doesn't guarantee it. (Unfortunately...)

That would do nicely!

Eric, you let your membership lapse?

Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse?

In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed.

Eric The(LapSided)Hun

Quoted: Still, there are lots of EC's that I don't want near a court. I want a certain judicial philosophy in that court, and being an EC doesn't guarantee it. (Unfortunately...)

Yup. Just because you are a devout Christian does
not mean that you are predisposed to follow the
Constitution.

Religion has little to do with this issue.

Quoted:

Religion has little to do with this issue.

Baloney!

Fundamentalism in your Christian Faith invaribly leads to 'fundamentalism' in your political thinking.

Just as Fundamentalists think the Bible is inerrant and should not be deviated from in the least, so, too, do they likely think that the Constitution, which they believe to be 'divinely-inspired' (without any Caps), is the greatest achievement of mankind, and should not be deviated from in the least.

There are exceptions, of course, but Harriet Miers is unlikely to be such.

Eric The(PleasedToHaveMetHer)Hun

Quoted: There are exceptions, of course, but Harriet Miers is unlikely to be such. Eric The(PleasedToHaveMetHer)Hun

I sincerely hope you are right.

I would like nothing more than to talk about Miers 10 years from now and say that I did a whole lot of worrying over nothing.

Quoted: Quoted: Cool. I can live with that. I am about as fundamentalist as an Evangelical Christian can get. Still, there are lots of EC's that I don't want near a court. I want a certain judicial philosophy in that court, and being an EC doesn't guarantee it. (Unfortunately...)

Ditto to that.

I know a lot of EC's that are really nice people, but have absolutely no clue when it comes to the founding principles of this country.

I also know a lot of people that claim to be EC that have some fairly left wing views too, so just because someone says they're EC, doesn't necessarily mean they are, let alone will make a good SCOTUS candidate.

I hope Miers turns out to be a good one. Only time will tell

Well, we won't hold it against her.

Quoted: Quoted: Religion has little to do with this issue. Baloney! Fundamentalism in your Christian Faith invaribly leads to 'fundamentalism' in your political thinking.

I'm sure that there are many Southern Baptists that are
devout as they come, but continually vote for liberal race
baters.

At risk of turning this into a religious thread, I would rather
that the SCOTUS overrule RvW becauseit was faulty law
rather than because God wills it.

Quoted: Yup. Just because you are a devout Christian does not mean that you are predisposed to follow the Constitution.

Sadly, this is true.

Some of the most INSANE, COMMUNISTIC, SOCIALISTIC, LIBERAL BILGE I have EVER read online has been on CHRISTIAN websites. I mean some REALLY crazy stuff.

Unreal.

I thought ETH was Staff?

What happened?

The next ripple of gossip that you will likely hear about Harriet Miers is that she is a lesbian!

It will be brought up by liberal groups who seek only to shake the Evangelical base of the Republican Party....for we know what liberal groups actually think about homosexuality.

Of course, no one ever said that David Souter must have been gay, in not ever having married...but he's a guy.

A professional woman who has never married is, ipso fatso, a lez.

Eric The(AlwaysChoosesHisWordsCarefully)Hun

I'm glad to hear it, for her, and it bodes well for the way faith-related issues may be handled....


But as long as she's pro-abortion, pro-gay, and pro-international court, I'll refrain from applauding her.

Quoted:

I'm sure that there are many Southern Baptists that are devout as they come, but continually vote for liberal race baters.

And I am certain that you don't actually mean 'Southern' Baptists (which refused to endorse either Bill Clinton or Al Gore, who are its own members, for President!), but National Baptists and Missionary Baptists, two large groups of black Baptists.

At risk of turning this into a religious thread, I would rather that the SCOTUS overrule RvW becauseit was faulty law rather than because God wills it.

I would, too.

It would make for better precedent. And be easier to defend.

Eric The(FundamentallyFlawed)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure that there are many Southern Baptists that are devout as they come, but continually vote for liberal race baters. And I am certain that you don't actually mean 'Southern' Baptists (which refused to endorse either Bill Clinton or Al Gore, who are its own members, for President!), but National Baptists and Missionary Baptists, two large groups of black Baptists. At risk of turning this into a religious thread, I would rather that the SCOTUS overrule RvW becauseit was faulty law rather than because God wills it. I would, too. It would make for better precedent. And be easier to defend. Eric The(FundamentallyFlawed)Hun

Eric,

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church.

Not surprisingly, so is my Sunday School teacher - who voted for Kerry.





edit:


So did half the congregation......

I was just reading a Washington Post article on MSNBC about this.  I might as well throw it in also:

Church ties could shed light on Miers’ thinking
Faith in Jesus has shaped court pick’s personal values

One evening in the 1980s, several years after Harriet Miers dedicated her life to Jesus Christ, she attended a lecture at her Dallas evangelical church with Nathan Hecht, a colleague at her law firm and her on-and-off boyfriend. The speaker was Paul Brand, a surgeon and the author of "Fearfully and Wonderfully Made," a best-selling exploration of God and the human body.

When the lecture was over, Miers said words Hecht had never heard from her before. "I'm convinced that life begins at conception," Hecht recalled her saying. According to Hecht, now a Texas Supreme Court justice, Miers has believed ever since that abortion is "taking a life."

"I know she is pro-life," said Hecht, one of the most conservative judges in Texas. "She thinks that after conception, it's not a balancing act -- or if it is, it's a balancing of two equal lives."

Hecht and other confidants of Miers all pledge that if the Senate confirms her nomination to the Supreme Court, her judicial values will be guided by the law and the Constitution. But they say her personal values have been shaped by her abiding faith in Jesus, and by her membership in the massive red-brick Valley View Christian Church, where she was baptized as an adult, served on the missions committee and taught religious classes. At Valley View, pastors preach that abortion is murder, that the Bible is the literal word of God and that homosexuality is a sin -- although they also preach that God loves everybody.

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino declined to comment on Hecht's recollection yesterday but said President Bush did not ask Miers her personal views on abortion or any other issue that may come before the court. "A nominee who shares the president's approach of judicial restraint would not allow personal views to affect his or her rulings based on the law," Perino said.

Some religious conservatives have expressed deep dissatisfaction with the Miers nomination, grumbling that she has never taken public stands on hot-button social issues. But her friends point to Valley View as evidence that she is cut from conservative cloth. They say she's not a "holy roller" who flaunts her religion on her sleeve but she lives her faith as a born-again Christian.

"People in Dallas know she's a conservative," said her friend Ed Kinkeade, a federal district judge. "She's not Elmer Gantry, but she lives what she believes. . . . I'm like, y'all, has George Bush appointed anyone to an appellate court that is a betrayal to conservatives?"

Even in Dallas, home of groups such as the Texas Eagle Forum and the Republican National Coalition for Life, some religious conservatives say Miers, 60, has demonstrated an insufficient commitment to family values. They cited a questionnaire she filled out for a gay rights group in 1989 as a candidate for Dallas City Council, indicating that gay people should have the same civil rights as straight people and that the city should fund AIDS education and services. After her election, she appointed an openly gay lawyer to an influential city board.

‘Faith in things unseen’
"For goodness' sake, why elevate AIDS over cancer? She shouldn't have filled out that questionnaire at all," said Cathie Adams, president of the Texas Eagle Forum. "President Bush is asking us to have faith in things unseen. We only have that kind of faith in God."

But on the same questionnaire, Miers opposed the repeal of a Texas anti-sodomy law and said she was not seeking the endorsement of the gay rights group. In a meeting with the group, she said that her "personal conviction is not consistent" with the "homosexual lifestyle," according to one activist's notes.

Hecht suggested that it would be difficult to attend Valley View regularly and support gay rights. At the same time, he said, Miers's faith made her more sympathetic to the struggles of others, and her duties as an at-large City Council member transcended her personal views.

"She represented those people, and she wanted to represent the whole city," Hecht said. "It doesn't mean that you approve of their lifestyle."

Hecht remembers that when Miers made partner at their law firm, the first woman ever to do so, she began to question what life was all about. He said they would often put their feet up and trade Big Questions: Is there a God? Who is He? What difference does it make? Miers had attended Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches as a girl, and her mother was religious, but Miers told Hecht she wanted a "deeper faith." Hecht believes she may have supported abortion rights at the time, although he said she had not thought about it much.

"Well, let's go to my church," Hecht told her.

That was Valley View, where Hecht played the organ and taught Sunday school. It was a church, pastor Ron Key said, that believed in "the Judeo-Christian perspective on the sanctity of life" and "the Christian perspective on marriage." There are antiabortion pamphlets inside the church and literature opposing premarital sex. Key and his wife, Kaycia, said they never asked Miers what she thought about those issues, because they never thought they had to.

"We've known Harriet for 30 years and we've never had any reason to discuss these hot topics," Kaycia Key said. "But I can say one thing: She's a totally committed Christian."

But some antiabortion activists noted that Justice Anthony M. Kennedy was described as a devout Catholic when he was nominated by President Ronald Reagan -- and he still voted to uphold Roe v. Wade . Miers donated $150 at a fundraising dinner for a Texas antiabortion group in 1989, but Colleen Parro, director of the Republican National Coalition for Life, remembers that there were plenty of politicians trolling for votes at the dinner. Parro said she does not care whether Miers is a born-again Christian, or the companion of Hecht.

"It's not about her church, or the fellow she dates. It's about her record," Parro said. "She seems like a fine lady, but this nomination does not advance the culture of life."

‘Following her beliefs’
In 1993, when Miers was the president of the Texas bar, she led a challenge to the American Bar Association's support for abortion rights. Some of her friends say she just thought it was inappropriate for the group to take a stand on a moral issue, but others point out that an abortion rights supporter probably would not have challenged the status quo.

"She didn't have to do that," Kinkeade said. "She was following her beliefs."

Those beliefs were forged at Valley View, but Miers is breaking away from the church where she embraced Jesus. In recent years, church elders have moved to cut back on missionary work, sparking a split this summer among the parishioners. Key is forming a church that plans to donate half its revenues to mission work, and Miers plans to join him.

"These days so many of the churches have become Christian country clubs," Key said. "They are more about making you feel good about yourself than making you grow. Some of us, including Harriet, were uncomfortable with all this."

But if Miers is leaving her church, the church is not leaving her. Kaycia Key said she expects to see the next Supreme Court justice in the pews, singing enthusiastically, if not skillfully. "Let's just say she makes a joyful noise unto the Lord," Key said. "She doesn't hesitate to sing out."

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9593793/

Quoted: I thought ETH was Staff?

They say that all good things must end some day
Autumn leaves must fall
But don't you know that it hurts me so
To say goodbye to you
Wish you didn't have to go
No no no no

~ from 'A Summer Day', by Chad & Jeremy, 1964

What happened?

'It was a dark and stormy night,' he typed.

Eric The(Indubitable)Hun

Quoted:

So did half the congregation......

Then Southern Baptists in Tennessee are strange ducks.

Down here in Texas, they run the place...very conservatively.

Eric The(VeryConservative)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun

Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics.
This is another strike against her.

I don't care if she practices witchcraft as long as she understands what 'people' and 'shall not be infringed' mean.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought ETH was Staff? They say that all good things must end some day Autumn leaves must fall But don't you know that it hurts me so To say goodbye to you Wish you didn't have to go No no no no ~ from 'A Summer Day', by Chad & Jeremy, 1964 What happened? 'It was a dark and stormy night,' he typed. Eric The(Indubitable)Hun

So, ambulance chasin' ain't paying too well these days?  Maybe you could take up a collection for that cool 20 bucks.

She is a pronounced "born again Christian" and the only thing we know about her is that she is very Pro-life.  

Why aren't Schumer, Kennedy and Boxer knocking people over to find a reporter to denounce her?????

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her.

percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.  This is also not to say there are plenty of catholics that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here.

Quoted: The next ripple of gossip that you will likely hear about Harriet Miers is that she is a lesbian!

Too late, Eric.  It's already happened.

FWIW, she appears to be for a very strict interpretation of the Constitution and is thus, pro-RKBA.

Quoted: Quoted: So did half the congregation...... Then Southern Baptists in Tennessee are strange ducks. Down here in Texas, they run the place...very conservatively. Eric The(VeryConservative)Hun

Sadly, I agree with you. Half my congregation put the promise of tax cuts or other monetary benefits ABOVE moral issues, matters of liberty, and whatnot. I don't get it.


Remember this, Eric:



She's a SUPREME COURT NOMINEE.

You probably understand the gravity of the position she is up for - probably better than *I* understand it.


Don't expect us to run to her with open arms just yet.

She has to 'run the gauntlet' first. The fact that she is a Christian who supposedly lives out her faith is, to me, a good sign, per se, but I still think we should slowly and cautiously, at best, warm up to this woman.



<---slower to fall for anything, as he gets older.......

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought ETH was Staff? They say that all good things must end some day Autumn leaves must fall But don't you know that it hurts me so To say goodbye to you Wish you didn't have to go No no no no ~ from 'A Summer Day', by Chad & Jeremy, 1964 What happened? 'It was a dark and stormy night,' he typed. Eric The(Indubitable)Hun So, ambulance chasin' ain't paying too well these days?  Maybe you could take up a collection for that cool 20 bucks.

Goodness!

Do you have to troll EVERY thread Eric starts?

Crap, him and I *certainly* don't agree on everything - but let it go, man, let it go!

Quoted:

So, ambulance chasin' ain't paying too well these days?

Well, all I know is that IF I ever decided to eat at a Dunkin Donuts, they would actually expect me to pay!

Unlike others I know....

Maybe you could take up a collection for that cool 20 bucks.

Naw, it's not necessary, really.

But thanks for thinking of my financial welfare.

Eric The(Contented)Hun

The term "Evangelical" has been destroyed in the past 20 years

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.  This is also not to say there are plenty of catholics that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here.

Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems.
I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.  This is also not to say there are plenty of catholics that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance.

if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned.

Please, Ryann, calm down.

besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun.

"percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable. .."    arowneragain

Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement?
What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. "percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable. .."    arowneragain Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?"

I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit.

I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386

It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants.


Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad:

ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. "percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable. .."    arowneragain Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?" I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit. I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386 It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants. Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad: ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm

I'm not gonna read anti Catholic propaganda forwarded to me by an anti Catholic "evangelical christian"  on the internet.
Us "liberal" Catholics sure are pushing for abortion rights aren't we?

This shouldn't turn into a religious thread, I jumped into it to voice my opinion that Meirs being an "evangelical christian" (whatever the fuck that is) is another strike against her.  I wonder what this fine "evangelical" christian's salary was for promoting Gambling in the state of Texas.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. "percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable. .."    arowneragain Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?" I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit. I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386 It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants. Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad: ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm I'm not gonna read anti Catholic propaganda forwarded to me by an anti Catholic "evangelical christian"  on the internet. Us "liberal" Catholics sure are pushing for abortion rights aren't we?

Ease up on the hatin'. my friend.

It's no secret that I have disagreements with the Catholic Church - but to call me anti-catholic is an insult, at best, and probably a surprise to most of the devout catholics here.

(Monday night, I spent the better part of an hour in an informal Bible study with a Catholic friend of mine - who is probably reading this thread as I type. ) And last night i missed a phone call from another friend of mine - also catholic - who I often discuss scripture with.

Did I mention last week's conversation with another Catholic - whom I have been discussing Scripture with for over a year?

(Not in an effort to convert, either...)


As for the anti-catholic propaganda.........dude, lay off the cocaine. I did a google search and posted the first two results I found that offered you some sort of validation of the claim AR15bubba made in his post.

I didn't make any of it up - I just posted the first two relevant articles I found.


Did I mention that my own Sunday School teacher was a Kerry democrat?

Or did I mention that half of the congregation at the church I attend vote democrat?

Does that make me a self-basher?

Dude, seriously......calm down.

So, Supreme Court Nominee Miers Is...An Evangelical Christian?


That Sucks

Many in Washington, including republicans, dont like her because she never went to any ivy leage school and doesnt come from the social elite. Its OK to say that the evangelical christian part scares them too.

Quoted: Many in Washington, including republicans, dont like her because she never went to any ivy leage school and doesnt come from the social elite. Its OK to say that the evangelical christian part scares them too.

So far, those are the reasons I *do* like her.


But she still has a long way to go........

Like I said before, the term is used in such a way now where the original intent and maybe definition is all wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?" I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit. I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386 It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants. Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad: ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm I'm not gonna read anti Catholic propaganda forwarded to me by an anti Catholic "evangelical christian"  on the internet. Us "liberal" Catholics sure are pushing for abortion rights aren't we? Ease up on the hatin'. my friend. It's no secret that I have disagreements with the Catholic Church - but to call me anti-catholic is an insult, at best, and probably a surprise to most of the devout catholics here. (Monday night, I spent the better part of an hour in an informal Bible study with a Catholic friend of mine - who is probably reading this thread as I type. ) And last night i missed a phone call from another friend of mine - also catholic - who I often discuss scripture with. Did I mention last week's conversation with another Catholic - whom I have been discussing Scripture with for over a year? (Not in an effort to convert, either...) As for the anti-catholic propaganda.........dude, lay off the cocaine. I did a google search and posted the first two results I found that offered you some sort of validation of the claim AR15bubba made in his post. I didn't make any of it up - I just posted the first two relevant articles I found. Did I mention that my own Sunday School teacher was a Kerry democrat? Or did I mention that half of the congregation at the church I attend vote democrat? Does that make me a self-basher? Dude, seriously......calm down.

I challenged a position you made, that in your words is inarguable ("percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.).
I challenged you to provide evidence of your statement, and you refuse to, because you cannot cogently support your assertion.  Spare me the Catholic friends routine, you come across like the avowed racist who says he can't be racist because he has black friends.
I learned long long ago how EC's view me, my church, or that matter mainstream Protestant churches.  I think no higher of your church than you do of mine.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?" I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit. I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386 It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants. Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad: ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm I'm not gonna read anti Catholic propaganda forwarded to me by an anti Catholic "evangelical christian"  on the internet. Us "liberal" Catholics sure are pushing for abortion rights aren't we? Ease up on the hatin'. my friend. It's no secret that I have disagreements with the Catholic Church - but to call me anti-catholic is an insult, at best, and probably a surprise to most of the devout catholics here. (Monday night, I spent the better part of an hour in an informal Bible study with a Catholic friend of mine - who is probably reading this thread as I type. ) And last night i missed a phone call from another friend of mine - also catholic - who I often discuss scripture with. Did I mention last week's conversation with another Catholic - whom I have been discussing Scripture with for over a year? (Not in an effort to convert, either...) As for the anti-catholic propaganda.........dude, lay off the cocaine. I did a google search and posted the first two results I found that offered you some sort of validation of the claim AR15bubba made in his post. I didn't make any of it up - I just posted the first two relevant articles I found. Did I mention that my own Sunday School teacher was a Kerry democrat? Or did I mention that half of the congregation at the church I attend vote democrat? Does that make me a self-basher? Dude, seriously......calm down. I challenged a position you made, that in your words is inarguable ("percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.). I challenged you to provide evidence of your statement, and you refuse to, because you cannot cogently support your assertion.  Spare me the Catholic friends routine, you come across like the avowed racist who says he can't be racist because he has black friends. I learned long long ago how EC's view me, my church, or that matter mainstream Protestant churches.  I think no higher of your church than you do of mine.

So now I'm a racist catholic-hater because I went out of my way to find some validation for something that was originally posted BY SOMEONE ELSE?

While you're pondering that, I'd also like to hear your secret theory on the differences between an 'EC' and a 'mainline potestant'.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?" I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit. I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386 It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants. Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad: ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm I'm not gonna read anti Catholic propaganda forwarded to me by an anti Catholic "evangelical christian"  on the internet. Us "liberal" Catholics sure are pushing for abortion rights aren't we? Ease up on the hatin'. my friend. It's no secret that I have disagreements with the Catholic Church - but to call me anti-catholic is an insult, at best, and probably a surprise to most of the devout catholics here. (Monday night, I spent the better part of an hour in an informal Bible study with a Catholic friend of mine - who is probably reading this thread as I type. ) And last night i missed a phone call from another friend of mine - also catholic - who I often discuss scripture with. Did I mention last week's conversation with another Catholic - whom I have been discussing Scripture with for over a year? (Not in an effort to convert, either...) As for the anti-catholic propaganda.........dude, lay off the cocaine. I did a google search and posted the first two results I found that offered you some sort of validation of the claim AR15bubba made in his post. I didn't make any of it up - I just posted the first two relevant articles I found. Did I mention that my own Sunday School teacher was a Kerry democrat? Or did I mention that half of the congregation at the church I attend vote democrat? Does that make me a self-basher? Dude, seriously......calm down. I challenged a position you made, that in your words is inarguable ("percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.). I challenged you to provide evidence of your statement, and you refuse to, because you cannot cogently support your assertion.  Spare me the Catholic friends routine, you come across like the avowed racist who says he can't be racist because he has black friends. I learned long long ago how EC's view me, my church, or that matter mainstream Protestant churches.  I think no higher of your church than you do of mine. So now I'm a racist catholic-hater because I went out of my way to find some validation for something that was originally posted BY SOMEONE ELSE? While you're pondering that, I'd also like to hear your secret theory on the differences between an 'EC' and a 'mainline potestant'.

Still refuse to defend your allegation eh?  Figures, typical Catholic bashing self righteous Evangelical.  I'm done here.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That would do nicely! Eric, you let your membership lapse? In the race which we call 'life', I got lapsed. Eric The(LapSided)Hun Most of the hard core EC's I've met have tended to be hypocritical, self righteous, and intolerant of the views of other Christians, particularly Catholics. This is another strike against her. that go against the percentages.  I am talking about on balance here. Why was this "evangelical christian" the head of the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION?  Ya know, that's state sanctioned gambling right?   She also gave money to Al Gore.  Obviously she's not too grounded in her belief systems. I'll pass on your Catholic bashing and chalk it up to ignorance. if you think that the part in red was 'bashing' of anything, you are sorely disillusioned. Please, Ryann, calm down. besides, we have a whole new religion forum here to bash catholics in. Come join the fun. Not arguable?  Where are your statistics and research data to make such a declarative statement? What exact percentage of EC's value "freedoms" vs the percentage of Catholics that you seem to feel disparage "freedoms?" I didn't make the statement - someone else did. You really oughta calm down a bit. I found this (admittedly old) article through google:  www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2270&issueID=386 It makes the case that catholics tend to be considerably less conservative voters than protestants. Here's another article that's gonna hurt your feelings. Consider the source before you get mad: ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005c/093005/093005n.htm I'm not gonna read anti Catholic propaganda forwarded to me by an anti Catholic "evangelical christian"  on the internet. Us "liberal" Catholics sure are pushing for abortion rights aren't we? Ease up on the hatin'. my friend. It's no secret that I have disagreements with the Catholic Church - but to call me anti-catholic is an insult, at best, and probably a surprise to most of the devout catholics here. (Monday night, I spent the better part of an hour in an informal Bible study with a Catholic friend of mine - who is probably reading this thread as I type. ) And last night i missed a phone call from another friend of mine - also catholic - who I often discuss scripture with. Did I mention last week's conversation with another Catholic - whom I have been discussing Scripture with for over a year? (Not in an effort to convert, either...) As for the anti-catholic propaganda.........dude, lay off the cocaine. I did a google search and posted the first two results I found that offered you some sort of validation of the claim AR15bubba made in his post. I didn't make any of it up - I just posted the first two relevant articles I found. Did I mention that my own Sunday School teacher was a Kerry democrat? Or did I mention that half of the congregation at the church I attend vote democrat? Does that make me a self-basher? Dude, seriously......calm down. I challenged a position you made, that in your words is inarguable ("percentage of EC that value the freedoms common to gun lovers (and other freedoms) is much higher than the percentage of catholics that do.  This is not arguable.). I challenged you to provide evidence of your statement, and you refuse to, because you cannot cogently support your assertion.  Spare me the Catholic friends routine, you come across like the avowed racist who says he can't be racist because he has black friends. I learned long long ago how EC's view me, my church, or that matter mainstream Protestant churches.  I think no higher of your church than you do of mine. So now I'm a racist catholic-hater because I went out of my way to find some validation for something that was originally posted BY SOMEONE ELSE? While you're pondering that, I'd also like to hear your secret theory on the differences between an 'EC' and a 'mainline potestant'. Still refuse to defend your allegation eh?  Figures, typical Catholic bashing self righteous Evangelical.  I'm done here.

ryann,


Carefully read the letters that make up my username.


Now go back to the original post made by ar15bubba.

Carefully read the letters that make up *his* username.


Compare the two.


You *may* notice that, lo and behold, *I* did not make the allegations you accuse me of making.

Rather, they were made by someone else.



Now...what *I* did was to, in an effort to calm you down, find a quick bit of validation for the contention made by ar15bubba.

In doing so, I did a couple of quick google searches, and posted the links I found that actually contained statistics I thought to be remotely relevant to the discussion at hand. I made no effort to pick any particular set of statistics - instead, I just used the first relevant results I found.
Is any of this sinking in?

Would you people PLEASE stop quoting the same 350 lines of text over and over?

Quoted: Would you people PLEASE stop quoting the same 350 lines of text over and over?

Correct article, both Harriet Miers and Nathan Hecht went to the church I grew up in.