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Posted: 7/28/2005 1:42:36 PM EDT
Been out of Law Enforcement for several years and was not OC certified the last time. Now I'm back in and going to have to take the OC cert next Tuesday and my dept believes in hosing you down with the stuff.

So Give me the quick Arfcom LEO Forum OC Cert survival refresher course.

Anything I can do or take with me, for afterward that will help out ?
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 1:48:42 PM EDT
The first time is the worst.


They're probably going to have you do something simple like walk to a chair and sit down. Everyone seems to do fine. For the next couple hours every time you sweat you'll feel it again.

If you can get away with it, a thin layer of Vaseline on your face beforehand will help a lot. (I've gotten to the point where I need to do that before dates...)
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 2:01:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 2:01:41 PM EDT by skippyputz]
Just remember it is only temporary. I'll take OC over CS any day. If they give you freeze+p you get the best of both worlds!!!
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 2:19:12 PM EDT

A couple of our instructors said they were given a tip by some national guardsman during some training. They said to use Coke/cola to nuetralize the OC. They said they tried it and that it works.

I don't know, maybe they were trying to get me to volunteer for a demonstration or something. Anyone hear of this?
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 2:20:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If you can get away with it, a thin layer of Vaseline on your face beforehand will help a lot. (I've gotten to the point where I need to do that before dates...)



I hope nobody is actually dumb enough to follow this. Unreal.

Take the hit and flush with lots of water. Real simple. Have fun.

NorCal



Link Posted: 7/28/2005 2:29:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If you can get away with it, a thin layer of Vaseline on your face beforehand will help a lot. (I've gotten to the point where I need to do that before dates...)



I hope nobody is actually dumb enough to follow this. Unreal.

Take the hit and flush with lots of water. Real simple. Have fun.

NorCal






Try it. Really.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 3:18:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 3:53:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 3:54:30 PM EDT by easy610]
No OC, other than the partial burst I've gotten when an over eager partner sprays wild! But the CS in the tiny room..then recite your name soc, etc.......OUCH!! I didn't know my head had that much snot/mucus in it!!


As was stated. It isn't as bad as you expect. It'll hurt but what the f><k. Whats a little pain? Been tasered? That was fun.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:02:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 4:08:11 PM EDT by ChrisLe]
Piece of advice: Whatever you do don't wear contact lenses. They're semi permeable and, as such, the OC will penetrate the lenses and get trapped between the lenses and eye...Your eyes will burn like fire until you remove them....More than one person I know has made that mistake.....

On a good note, it will temporarily clear up any sinus condition you may have.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:05:34 PM EDT
Nothing to sweat over. Like someone else sadi it is only temporary.

Besides it build character.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:40:35 PM EDT
Had so very good and credible advice IM'd to me from anouther member that Did NOT involve VASOLINE

Thanks
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:58:48 PM EDT
Take the hit, remain calm. You can still function before your eyes totally snap shut.
We had to draw red gun, point it at bad guy give verbal commands, then ASP the dummy and reholster the ASP(Autolock) then palm strikes on the bag. Then draw pistol and force someone to the ground, holster up and then cuff. (Speed Cuffing technique really comes in handy about now). Then your partner walks you to the hose. One rule... no cussing. Style points only get you applause from the peanut gallery.

It took about 20 min on average to decon ea. person. Copius amounts of water and a breeze helps.

Spray bottle with fine mist really feels good for a while after that.

Don't touch your junk......
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 5:10:37 PM EDT
I got sprayed for training back in March. It didn't effect my like some of the other guys. Just goes to show not everyone will react the same. We were thrown into a mock scenario, and then sprayed part way through. Then, we had to control the suspect and restrain them while fighting through the OC.

Afterwards, the gave us a hose and a bottle of mild soap solution to wash off the OC. A couple hours later, we had to do our final physical fitness evaluation, and everyone did just fine. Breathing had returned to normal and the only after effects were a little burning on the face while sweating.

Use COPIOUS amounts of water and scrub your face. When you take a shower, make sure you wash your whole body well, and wash your balls VERY well.

Don't worry about it at all. It's temporary discomfort if anything. Just keep a cool head about you.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:32:39 PM EDT
Baby soap that you can wash your eyes with is great for decontamination. I got sparayed in the academy and i've been sprayed by other deputies during struggles, It sucks but it goes away. Since we started using tasers we hardly spray anyone anymore, the taser is much, much more effective. Just make sure that your spray is not flammable if you tase someone who has been OC'd because they will light up like a roman candle.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 3:58:49 AM EDT
Bring one of those generic spray bottles full of just plain water. Usually after you get sprayed you simulate fighting off attackers, after that either a hose or large pans of water to rinse off your face. once that's done nothing but having to wait for it to wear off, but having that bottle lets you give your face a nice mist of water that has a cooling feeling. Bring a spare shirt and maybe a towel to wrap around your neck after rinsing off so runoff is caught by it.

Nothing will make the burning feeling any lesser but these couple things can make it more tolerable with less after effects from stuff like touching your pepper soaked shirt then touching your face again. Might also consider wearing latex gloves so that once your face is cleaned off you can take off the gloves and not worry about pepper being all over your hands.

Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:02:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2005 8:05:44 AM EDT by tpsh]
When I got sprayed we had to perform baton strikes to a moving bag until our instructor was "satisfied". At one point I had to hold one eye open with my fingers to keep finding my moving target but you can function and fight through the burn.

I have tried the baby soap and it is better than just water and someone I know also tried milk which they said worked wonders.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:56:43 AM EDT
baby shampoo is the way to go, get the decon time down abit, lots of water and remember it wont kill you, it only makes you stronger
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:37:17 AM EDT
"It BURNSSSSSSSS!"

Seriously....man-up brother. It aint that bad. I've been sprayed in the pigpile more times than I care to remember.

Once your done, flush with cool water. Hot water will cause your pores to open up...which is bad. It'll fuck up your contacts too, if you wear em.


Sheep
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:54:19 AM EDT
It's just OC. Yes it stings. Just suck it up and drive on.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 11:03:50 AM EDT
DO NOT shave or take a shower before you get sprayed. I made that mistake the first time and it really sucked.

The only thing that really brings relief is cold water and a nice breeze. You can set up a box fan but if you let the oc dry on you, it will just re-activate when you get it wet again.

When you get home (or before, if possible) take all of your clothes off (even underwear) and put them in a garbage bag. This will help prevent contamination of anything in the home or your wife and kids accidently getting some on them. When you wash the clothes, do them separate from the regular wash. The first time I got sprayed, I had to wash the t-shirt 3 times before all the oc was out of it.

When I shower after getting sprayed, I take a hefty bag and cut out the bottom of it. Then I duct tape it around my waist....like a skirt. I can then shower without having to worry about getting the oc on my "package". I use Johnsons Baby Shampoo and wash my head with it at least 5 times and it usually does the trick.
Pay special attention to the area around your eyes and ears.....for some reason they are harder to get clean.

I hate OC. My skin stays red for days after getting sprayed. I would rather do a couple of 5 second TASER rides than get sprayed again.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 11:19:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If you can get away with it, a thin layer of Vaseline on your face beforehand will help a lot. (I've gotten to the point where I need to do that before dates...)



I hope nobody is actually dumb enough to follow this. Unreal.

Take the hit and flush with lots of water. Real simple. Have fun.

NorCal




He's saying a layer BEFORE.................. Like it was a little barrier mask.................... Not after.

Bring a big fan...........and a baton.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 12:20:39 PM EDT
Water and a fan to blow in your face afterwards
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 12:28:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If you can get away with it, a thin layer of Vaseline on your face beforehand will help a lot. (I've gotten to the point where I need to do that before dates...)



I hope nobody is actually dumb enough to follow this. Unreal.

Take the hit and flush with lots of water. Real simple. Have fun.

NorCal




He's saying a layer BEFORE.................. Like it was a little barrier mask.................... Not after.

Bring a big fan...........and a baton.



Yes...I gathered that from the word "beforehand".

My point was: One, a salve (especially a petroleum based one) will trap the irritant and have residual effects as you are removing it (as opposed to the relatively quick initial exposure and flushing.) Skin is the least of the pain/reaction and you can't vaseline your eyeballs or mucous membranes.

Two, Specific training is for a specific reason (in this case experiencing, dealing with, and functioning despite being partially incapacitated) Little cheats and easy outs defeat the training goals and are poor form for a LEO.

Three, even the most disorganized protest group sites know this info and that it doesn't work.

NorCal
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 7:08:40 PM EDT
Lots and lots of water. The next shower you take should be as cold as you can stand it. Make sure you lean FORWARD so the gunk drips off your face and not down on your body. Don't tilt your head back, just lets the water pool in your eyes. Flush as much water over you as you can.

When I got hit we had a scenario around it that involved use of force, ended with a deadly force situation using a sims gun while we were well under the effects of the OC.

The effects didn't totally wear off for about 6 hours after I got sprayed, felt like I had a really really bad sunburn. The next day I itched a little bit and kept smelling the stuff.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 7:48:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If you can get away with it, a thin layer of Vaseline on your face beforehand will help a lot. (I've gotten to the point where I need to do that before dates...)



I hope nobody is actually dumb enough to follow this. Unreal.

Take the hit and flush with lots of water. Real simple. Have fun.

NorCal




He's saying a layer BEFORE.................. Like it was a little barrier mask.................... Not after.

Bring a big fan...........and a baton.



Yes...I gathered that from the word "beforehand".

My point was: One, a salve (especially a petroleum based one) will trap the irritant and have residual effects as you are removing it (as opposed to the relatively quick initial exposure and flushing.) Skin is the least of the pain/reaction and you can't vaseline your eyeballs or mucous membranes.

Two, Specific training is for a specific reason (in this case experiencing, dealing with, and functioning despite being partially incapacitated) Little cheats and easy outs defeat the training goals and are poor form for a LEO.

Three, even the most disorganized protest group sites know this info and that it doesn't work.

NorCal



I'm sorry I even posted, but here's perhaps some clarification: The first time I got sprayed, I drove home in a hot car on a hot day, and it was like going through it all over again. I know that if you Google "pepper spray" and "vaseline", the protest sites will tell you that the latter can trap the former. But I was told that rubbing in a thin layer of vaseline - not gooping it on, just putting an invisible little bit on like women with face cream - would keep the capsaicin (sp) out of my pores a bit and make the "bad sunburn" feeling shorter. I tried it, it seemed to work, maybe it was psychological.

Your second point is valid.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:41:35 PM EDT
As an OC instructor, I have seen reactions ranging from people falling down and screaming to people who take a full shot in the face and look at you and say "Is that it?" The point is that everyone reacts differently to the spray. You may be lucky and have no problems with it....on the other hand

One of our EMTs uses a mixture of Johnson's Baby Shampoo & distilled water, with a little sugar added. It really seems to help clear the OC out of the eyes, which is the worst pain for most people.
I have been sprayed with my contacts in, and without, and it doesn't seem to cause any problem to the lenses themselves, it just makes the effects last longer until you remove the lenses. If you have OC on your hands, just get someone else to take the lenses out, to avoid a second bout of watering eyes, etc. Found that out after teaching a class & getting the spray on my hands while decontaminating some of the students. Even after washing my hands 4-5 times, I still had enough residue on my hands to make taking out my contacts a miserable ordeal.

Still not nearly as bad as CS, IMO....
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 11:19:49 PM EDT
Are they gonna make you get shot with your own gun too. Just so you know what its like?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 3:59:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCCop:
Still not nearly as bad as CS, IMO....



I've only had the CS experience once. I can't believe that my skull could hold that much snot.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 4:34:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 4:41:14 AM EDT
Enjoy it, you wont forget it. I'll take a taser hit again before voluntarily being OC'd again.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 4:47:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
I stopped counting somewhere around the 3000th person I sprayed, but my guess is I have done at least 4000-4500 as an instructor



What's the most effective OC?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:16:19 AM EDT
FOX
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:42:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 9:42:50 AM EDT by DigDug]
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:55:46 AM EDT
Be sure to come back and let us know how you do.

I need a dummy for my next pepperball training evolution. Hell, I'll even come out to your PD and demo it for free....on you.


Sheep
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:10:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Yes...I gathered that from the word "beforehand".



You seem kinda uptight about that suggestion, are you sure you are ok?


My point was: One, a salve (especially a petroleum based one) will trap the irritant and have residual effects as you are removing it (as opposed to the relatively quick initial exposure and flushing.) Skin is the least of the pain/reaction and you can't vaseline your eyeballs or mucous membranes.


Yeah, salve, bad............ my thought was if the petroleum jelly is on there first, and the skin is saturated with it, that any OC that lands on the surface can be wiped off, and is less likely to get into skin that is already saturated with petroleum jelly.

Then again, it wouldn't be you or I that was testing that theory.


Two, Specific training is for a specific reason (in this case experiencing, dealing with, and functioning despite being partially incapacitated) Little cheats and easy outs defeat the training goals and are poor form for a LEO.


Many places don't require OC spraying to be OC certified. Taser doesn't require a taser hit to be Taser certified anymore.

The real reason a lot of places require a "hit, LIABILITY. Not excellence in training ect. LIABILITY if an officer ever escelates the force level after being sprayed.

If it was about excellence in training, it would be like what ACTUALLY happens. Suspect resists, suspect get sprayed, officers have to go hands on to secure the suspect. Officers get indirect exposure.


Three, even the most disorganized protest group sites know this info and that it doesn't work.


I'm willing to let them keep trying.....................


NorCal


Sorry I don't go with you have to be sprayed.

I have been CS'ed and CN'ed. I have also been Maced. If someone tells me they are going to spray burny stuff on me.................. been there, done that.................... Regardless of what people want to say, burny stuff=burny stuff.

As to "if its safe.................................." Hey, I try to act so that I don't get OC'ed, punched, batoned, etc. Whether by the police, or other people in the bar. I don't volunteer to have pain inflicted on me, for training or recreation.

When the nice officer says something like "you are under arrest", and the future arrestee replies with something witty like "I am not"........................... they just volunteered for what comes next.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 2:00:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 2:05:34 PM EDT
Anyone know if getting sprayed helps clear up your sinuses? Been lookin' for alternative remedies. Seriously.

coburn
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 2:53:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 7:15:41 PM EDT
i see nothing wrong with using foam

i would take getting hit with a tazer than getting oced again



Link Posted: 7/30/2005 7:25:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 7:26:55 PM EDT by Gungho_1989]
Sorry didnt realize where this was posted off color humor removed.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:21:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Foam is bad. Perp can scoop it off and throw it back at you. Never use foam.




We tried foam for a while for our detention officers, but it was very slow to affect the inmates. Basically it had to melt & run down into their eyes or mouth to work, which gave them too much time to fight or throw it back at the officer.

We tried a new foam from BodyGuard, which melts instantly on contact, so it can't be thrown back.
It's still not as fast as spray to work on the prisoner, but the detention officers like it because they don't have to decontaminate the whole area after using it. Most of the time, when the other inmates see the officer come out with the can, they are busy covering their heads with pillows, towels, clothing or anything else they can grab.

For road officers, the spray or stream containers are best. Spray or mist is easier to use, because you get a larger spray pattern, with less chance of missing. The stream is harder to hit with, but is probably a little faster acting if you get a good shot with it.

The mist pattern works real well when taking a prisoner out of a bar, or house, or anywhere there is a crowd of people who object to you arresting one of their buddies. Just hold the can down by your leg with the spray opening pointing behind you as you walk him out, and hold down the button. A good cloud of OC mist tends to discourage people from following you out
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:37:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:56:00 PM EDT
If they will allow you, wear some type of eye glasses if you can. It will keep the stream from spraying right into your eyes, but if it does, it's not that big a deal. The mist will still get in there. I've been sprayed with Fox and I've carried a whole load of other less than effective crap. I wear glasses anyway and if I do wear contacts, I still wear clear safety/shooting glasses or sunglasses to protect my eyes day to day.

As stated before, you can build a resistance to OC. My partner and myself used to spray OC on our food at lunch. It is a seasoning after all. OC is decent for most people. My partner sprayed the radiator of a fleeing suspect vehicle and they bailed out after about 20 feet. It does work.

Of course, back in the Army, CS didn't really bother me much either. My Dad used to deal with CS and other chemicals while in the Army. He used to come home stinking of the crap. I guess I built up a resistance to CS. I went to the cement house in basic, used CS grenades and played with a liquid type. CS is worse than OC by far.

Don't sweat it. Above all, keep calm and focused. Don't breathe too deeply until after you decon.

I haven't taken a Taser hit, but I've played with them. I have been hit with an older style stun gun and I've been zapped with 110v and 220v a few times. I hate electricity pulsing through my body. It's the big suck.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:52:20 AM EDT
We had a situation this past year where a suspect was fighting two officers and both emptied their oc cans on him. One officer was able to deploy an X26 TASER and had no appreciable effect on the suspect. It did ignite the oc on him though. That didn't even affect him and he kept fighting. He was able to get one of the officers weapon and the other officer was forced to shoot him. They then had to get a fire extinguisher to put the guy out. The shot parylized him and he had 3rd degree burns from the chest, neck face and head. He died a number of hours later.

Everyone was surprised about the fire, since we were told that the oc we were using at the time was not flammable.....oops! I have heard that the propellant of that particular brand contained butane which is what ignited. We now use a different spray and it sucks. The can is alot longer, so it has to be positioned just right on the belt or it willget in the way and it isn't as powerful as the old stuff.


Originally Posted By ikor:

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
Are they gonna make you get shot with your own gun too. Just so you know what its like?



Only if that gun is considered to be "non-lethal / less-than'lethal". We tell the public that this stuff is safe for use against them, and many agencies place it at a very low level for use of force. You will be banged up and subjected to wristlocks, etc. in DT but many officers will use OC at the drop of a hat on subjects who resist. If it is "safe" to use on a grandmother, why should the officer using it not experience it? In addition, as pointed out, if you use OC in the field or the jail, eventually you WILL get some on you...you do NOT want a real life fight to be your first exposure to this stuff!

I stopped counting somewhere around the 3000th person I sprayed, but my guess is I have done at least 4000-4500 as an instructor, almost all of that using alcohol based OC. As mentioned by NCCop, you get every reaction you can think of. In fact you get so you can tell in the classroomn who is scared shitless and who will not have a problem...much of it is phycological. Some of the best students are middle aged women who have had kids...THEY know what pain is and most just take it all in stride.

sph536...while it certainly IS possible for the taser to set off someone who is already soaked in alcohol, and it HAS happened at least once in the early 90's in NYC (I spoke with the ESU Sgt. who was on scene that day and this guy was well and truely SOAKED!) Bill Burns did some extensive experiments with this scenario when he was instructing at S&W Academy and was only able to get ignition a very few times. It requires an "open" flame or similar. Alcohol based OC will actually put out a lit cigarette every time. (Just a little FYI)

And yes, the taser is, indeed, MUCH more effective!




Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:13:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:17:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:27:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:52:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:
To quote one of my co-workers while he was in the shower.."don't leave me"!



I see a sigline in there.



Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:55:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FN-TPS:
Been out of Law Enforcement for several years and was not OC certified the last time. Now I'm back in and going to have to take the OC cert next Tuesday and my dept believes in hosing you down with the stuff.

So Give me the quick Arfcom LEO Forum OC Cert survival refresher course.

Anything I can do or take with me, for afterward that will help out ?



We have to go through an annual "refresher" cert. with OC. I've tried almost everything under the sun that there's a rumor of working. It boils down to two things....

Baby Shampoo and Water

A few times, I tried things that actually made it worse. If you're done, let us know how it went.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:22:59 PM EDT
1. No contact lenses

2. Dont rub your eyes.

3. Get your mates (buddies) to flush your face with buckets of water

4. Take the pain and stay calm-remember, most deployments of OC result in secondary contamination to the police. Your gonna have to fight through this pain one day as your punching on with an aggressive drunk

5. Too many cops think "...If I get into a fight, Ill just use OC..." . Some people freak out as soon as they get sprayed, they fall to the floor and start rubbing thier eyes...OC takes 30-40 seconds to rely get buring. Anyone who has been in a real fight will know how long that time is...other people get sprayed and keep coming, know your Defensive Tactics...as soon as you grapple with him, your gonna get a level of contamination...You must have the mindset to fight through and handcuff...

Good luck. Its just another step in the journey to working on the road.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:38:21 PM EDT
I just got sprayed about a month ago in the academy. All I can say is remeber that it is only temp and will be gone in about 20 mins and remember to breathe. Also the guys that used baby shampoo seemed tyo recover quicker something about it being water based.
Have Fun
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