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Posted: 12/18/2010 1:18:16 PM EST
I'm watching the movie & had a few questions.

During the night part, why not just mark YOUR side with the strobe & tell the pilots to hit anything that's not it?

Also felt pretty rotten when Shugart/Gordon got taken. My mother asked me to ask ya'll if their remains were recovered*.
And why did Garrison take the blame for the raid?

I found the book on sale for $2 but haven't started it yet.

*I was flabbergasted that she wanted to see this film. She's the type who prefers movies like "Secondhand Lions".
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:25:19 PM EST
[#1]
People much more intelligent will answer better than me, but here it goes.

1.  Strobes on target because it's easier to focus on blinking lights, then it is to not aim at something blinking (think, ooo something shiny).   Smoke, strobes, laser..  Always mark target, not friendly.
2.  Because he was the CO and personally, he felt responsible for the death of his troops.
3,  Yes, they were both buried with the honor they earned.
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:28:35 PM EST
[#2]
They did use strobes if I recall. They were infared strobes.
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:36:37 PM EST
[#3]
Quoted:
People much more intelligent will answer better than me, but here it goes.

1.  Strobes on target because it's easier to focus on blinking lights, then it is to not aim at something blinking (think, ooo something shiny).   Smoke, strobes, laser..  Always mark target, not friendly.
2.  Because he was the CO and personally, he felt responsible for the death of his troops.
3,  Yes, they were both buried with the honor they earned.


I wasn't sure as I recall someone mentioning bodies being drug thru the streets afterwards.

Well it mentioned in the beginning that he had requested AC130's but Washington denied them. I guess I was thinking that I'd have gone on Fox news blaming them.
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:39:56 PM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
People much more intelligent will answer better than me, but here it goes.

1.  Strobes on target because it's easier to focus on blinking lights, then it is to not aim at something blinking (think, ooo something shiny).   Smoke, strobes, laser..  Always mark target, not friendly.
2.  Because he was the CO and personally, he felt responsible for the death of his troops.
3,  Yes, they were both buried with the honor they earned.


I wasn't sure as I recall someone mentioning bodies being drug thru the streets afterwards.

Well it mentioned in the beginning that he had requested AC130's but Washington denied them. I guess I was thinking that I'd have gone on Fox news blaming them.



1.  Shughart is buried in PA, Gordon is buried in ME.
2.  Regardless of what happened, it was his mission, his orders, his command.  Just because he didn't get what he asked for, didn't mean he wouldn't take responsibility.  (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:42:40 PM EST
[#5]



Quoted:



Quoted:

People much more intelligent will answer better than me, but here it goes.



1.  Strobes on target because it's easier to focus on blinking lights, then it is to not aim at something blinking (think, ooo something shiny).   Smoke, strobes, laser..  Always mark target, not friendly.

2.  Because he was the CO and personally, he felt responsible for the death of his troops.

3,  Yes, they were both buried with the honor they earned.




I wasn't sure as I recall someone mentioning bodies being drug thru the streets afterwards.



Well it mentioned in the beginning that he had requested AC130's but Washington denied them. I guess I was thinking that I'd have gone on Fox news blaming them.
IIRC...there were body parts returned in a garbage sack to the base...don't recall if either was Shughart or Gordon.  In any case





 
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:43:15 PM EST
[#6]
I hope Les Aspen is rotting in hell right now.
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:44:50 PM EST
[#7]




Quoted:

I'm watching the movie & had a few questions.



During the night part, why not just mark YOUR side with the strobe & tell the pilots to hit anything that's not it?



Also felt pretty rotten when Shugart/Gordon got taken. My mother asked me to ask ya'll if their remains were recovered*.

And why did Garrison take the blame for the raid?



I found the book on sale for $2 but haven't started it yet.



*I was flabbergasted that she wanted to see this film. She's the type who prefers movies like "Secondhand Lions".


Pretty quick thinking on their feet plus there were four chalks of Rangers at three locations, Operators on the move as 'reinforcements', and it's easier to strafe a blinking beacon then everywhere but the blinking beacon plus SSG Matt Eversman was able to direct their strafing runs to the highest concentration of militia.



Don't feel 'rotten' for those brave warriors. MSG Gary Gordon and SFC Randy Shugart knew what they were up against, were inserted 'of the own accord', and kept the advancing horde at bay as long as humanly possible, and possibly saved the life of CW3 Mike Durant.





MSG Gordon's personal decorations include:

























































































Medal of Honor[/url], Purple Heart, Meritorious Service Medal, Army Commendation Medal, Joint Service Achievement Medals (x2), Good Conduct Medal (x4), Combat Infantryman Badge, Master Parachutist Badge, Ranger Tab, Special Forces Tab, French Army Mountaineering Badge, the Royal Danish Parachutist Badge and the Joint Meritorious Unit Award.[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-JFKMuseum-0][1][/url]



[edit] Medal of Honor



On May 23, 1994, both Gordon and Shughart posthumously received the Medal of Honor in recognition for the actions they took and the sacrifices they made to help protect the life of Durant and the crew of Super Six Four. They were the only soldiers participating in Operation Gothic Serpent to receive the military's highest honor, and the first Medal of Honor recipients since the Vietnam War.[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-AMOHW-8][9][/url] Their medals were presented to their wives Stephanie Shugart and Carmen Gordon by President of the United States Bill Clinton in a ceremony at the White House.[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-ceremony-1][2][/url]



[edit] Medal of Honor citation



Citation:





Master Sergeant Gordon, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fire from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-AMOHW-8][9][/url]



MSG Shughart's personal decorations include:






[tbody]













[edit] Medal of Honor ceremony



On May 23, 1994, Shughart and Gordon were posthumously decorated with the Medals of Honor in recognition for the actions they took and the sacrifices they made to help protect the life of Durant and the crew of Super Six Four. They were the only soldiers participating in Operation Gothic Serpent to receive the U.S. military's highest honor, and the first Medal of Honor recipients since the Vietnam War.[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-AMOHW-2][3][/url]



[edit] Medal of Honor citation



Citation:



[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

[div]Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-AMOHW-2][3][/url]





MG William Garrison took the blame because that is what GOOD Commanders do they never blame their subordinates, peers, or superiors. They will chew your ass up in private, in formation, or to your face but to the outside world it is ALWAYS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. Don't mistake Responsibility with fault.



Read the book it is awesome you should have read the book first though.

*This was posted in Red, White, & Blue for a reason.[/span]
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 1:59:59 PM EST
[#8]




Quoted:



Quoted:

People much more intelligent will answer better than me, but here it goes.



1. Strobes on target because it's easier to focus on blinking lights, then it is to not aim at something blinking (think, ooo something shiny). Smoke, strobes, laser.. Always mark target, not friendly.

2. Because he was the CO and personally, he felt responsible for the death of his troops.

3, Yes, they were both buried with the honor they earned.




I wasn't sure as I recall someone mentioning bodies being drug thru the streets afterwards.



Well it mentioned in the beginning that he had requested AC130's but Washington denied them. I guess I was thinking that I'd have gone on Fox news blaming them.
The bodies that the Somalis drug through the street were the Crew of Super Six-Four: Co-Pilot CW4 Raymond Frank, Crew Chief SSG William "Billy" Cleveland*, and Crew Chief SSG Thomas "Tommy" Field.







* SSG Billy Cleveland was photographed and Printed on the Front Page of almost every News Release in the world. Unfortunatley his Widow read of his Death in the Leaf-Chronicle, the local newspaper in Clarksville Tennessee outside of Fort Campbell Kentucky, just as the unit Chaplain arrived to give her the solemn news.
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 2:14:31 PM EST
[#9]
Quoted:
I hope all of Somalis rot in hell.


fixxed
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 2:16:29 PM EST
[#10]





Quoted:






During the night part, why not just mark YOUR side with the strobe & tell the pilots to hit anything that's not it?



Saying "Shoot anywhere that I am not" will lead to wasting ammo on
empty space while leaving real targets untouched. They needed fire on a particular target, and the birds needed something to aim at.





They could call out a distance and azimuth from themselves, but that's needlessly complicated for a strafing run and leaves a lot of room for error. Pilots still want you to confirm what they are seeing. You'd also have to get the strobe on your own roof.





Also, no way to be sure you marked all friendlies. Their side was in a bunch of different positions, and muzzle flashes all look pretty much the same.





IR can be used to mark friendlies, just not in that manner.
 
Link Posted: 12/18/2010 2:26:47 PM EST
[#11]
I worked with a guy whose father shot competitively with one of the guys who is mentioned in Black Hawk Down.  I should ask him again which one.
Archived [ARCHIVED THREAD] - So I'm watching "black hawk down" right now & have some suggestions.
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