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Posted: 12/22/2015 12:48:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/23/2015 11:24:31 AM EST by 2apatriot]
UPDATE: Please read the whole OP before you go posting "Fuck S&W" or some such.


This is not about aftermarket parts. This is about a project that involved modifying an entire gun to display at SHOT show that still had S&W logos on it! It involves their trademarks, patents and potential liability for their company. This has nothing to do with a part you buy and install yourself.


From Page 9:

Originally Posted By JayAreOhh:
This was just posted on instagram by Smith & Wessons account...

···
James Debney, President and CEO of Smith & Wesson, said, “I would like to clarify that we fully support the Brownells Dream Guns® Project and we appreciate that it showcases the many ways in which our customers – loyal fans of our M&P brand – can choose to customize their M&P firearms. Our decision to contact the companies that worked on the project was intended to protect the trademarks that support the M&P brand. When a product bears the Smith & Wesson and M&P trademarks and is purchased new with our lifetime service policy, we want to be sure that the consumer knows it has passed our demanding quality standards. In our efforts to protect that promise and to preserve the brand that we and our customers cherish, we did not fully understand the intent of the Dream Guns® Project and we overlooked the opportunity to convey our enthusiasm for the creativity and innovation that Brownells and all of the companies involved have demonstrated. We look forward to seeing the firearm on display at the upcoming SHOT Show in January and at the NRA in May.”
View Quote




Taken from Page 2:



CLICK THIS LINK


It looks like Smith and Wesson is issuing this letter against the companies for these guns in the link above. They have an issue with the companies selling guns that could be mistaken as factory new and under warranty, and for using the SW trademarks.





Original OP:

Saw this on instagram just now. Anyone else heard about this? I'm not a lawyer, but it looks like they're going to ask Apex, Brownells, SSVI and blowndeadline to stop modifying pistols?

Hopefully the link works. Instagram is retarded. Linky


On an unrelated note, I love my Glock.


ETA: I can't say if this document is actually a cease and desist or what it means, I am not a lawyer. Its just my interpretation.





Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:49:29 PM EST
Well fuck them then


Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:50:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By southerngunner:
Well fuck them then


Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger
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Thats what I've heard from a lot of places.

Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:50:14 PM EST
Sounds like S&W wants a piece of the aftermarket pie - they're probably trying to coerce a licensing deal.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:50:21 PM EST
Tag to see where this goes.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:50:35 PM EST
Soon only the 1911 and AR will be end-user modifiable
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:50:38 PM EST
Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:51:02 PM EST
That will not go as planned for S&W
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:51:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By packinheavy:
Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work.
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Stop making our stuff better without our permission
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:51:31 PM EST
Well time to sell the M&P and get a CZ carry gun. Fuck S&W right in the butthole for being bitches.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:51:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By USMC6177:
That will not go as planned for S&W
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This is my thinking.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:51:48 PM EST
Another reason to buy a Glock
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:52:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2015 12:53:28 PM EST by 2apatriot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By USMC6177:

Stop making our stuff better without our permission
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By USMC6177:
Originally Posted By packinheavy:
Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work.

Stop making our stuff better without our permission


Pretty much. The only part of the letter posted is notifying them that the letter is from their legal department and that the modifications are unlawful.

Originally Posted By USMC6177:
That will not go as planned for S&W


Nope.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:53:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mk4dubbin:
Another reason to buy a Glock
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Until Gaston dies and his nurse wife tries to tell companies to stop making aftermarket parts to make the Glock actually perfect.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:53:42 PM EST
I'm beginning to hate guns. It is always someting under attack. Fucking lame.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:53:43 PM EST
Side note. They sent a C&D to blown deadline? The cerakote guy?
Molon Paint Job?
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:54:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By southerngunner:
Well fuck them then


Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger
View Quote



The new productions ones arent bad.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:54:55 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By USMC6177:
Side note. They sent a C&D to blown deadline? The cerakote guy?
Molon Paint Job?
View Quote


Yeah that guy. I don't speak legalese so I can't say for sure if this is a cease and desist or what. It was just the only thing I knew to call it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:55:00 PM EST
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Half the m&p pistols I have ever sold only did so because the buyer knew they could get a good upgrade for the crappy trigger.
Other than the shield..apex is probably the only reason Smith has ever sold a m&p
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:55:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:55:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mk4dubbin:
Another reason to buy a Glock
View Quote

There are more aftermarket "improvement" parts for a Glock than M&P
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:56:03 PM EST
... ha, smells like desperation
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:56:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2015 12:56:23 PM EST by dan1802]
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Originally Posted By texassooner:



The new productions ones arent bad.
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Originally Posted By texassooner:
Originally Posted By southerngunner:
Well fuck them then


Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger



The new productions ones arent bad.


They arent great either.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:56:44 PM EST
Thats pretty retarded and short sighted. The availability of aftermarket parts and accessories are a benifit to gun manufacturers. The more aftermarket parts and accessories that are available, the more likely people are to go with your platform. I.E. i would love to have a strike one pistol but night sights and holsters are not easy to find.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:56:46 PM EST
This oughtta be fun
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:57:07 PM EST
one more reason gun manufactures and
gun owners can sometimes be our worst enemy....
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:57:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dan1802:


They arent great either.
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Originally Posted By dan1802:
Originally Posted By texassooner:
Originally Posted By southerngunner:
Well fuck them then


Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger



The new productions ones arent bad.


They arent great either.

Still, no other gun company has a problem with other company's modifying YOUR firearms.... At most the warranty is voided

Fuck them
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:57:56 PM EST
If this is true, they are done for me. I had an M&P Pro with an Apex trigger in it. The Apex made the gun go from okay to outstanding. I ended up selling it recently to fund the purchase of another handgun with the thought that a few months from now i would buy a newer performance center model or CORE model to replace it as i'd been wanting to upgrade to that anyway. Not being able to put an Apex trigger into that new purchase means i won't be buying anymore M&P pistols, period.

If this is the way they plan to treat the shooting community, to ruin a thriving aftermarket support system, then i want nothing to do with them.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:59:10 PM EST
I'm guessing due to the number of people fucking their guns up during installation and sending them back.


I was told with my fucked up m&p 10 if I didn't send it back, they wouldn't warranty any other problems with it down the road.

Fixed it myself anyways and fixed the cycling issues with it. (Outside of running suppressed time to time.)
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 12:59:38 PM EST
I think I'm going to wait until this proves to be real until I break out the torch and pitchfork. A move like this from S&W makes zero sense... and they have been making pretty good decisions the last few years.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:00:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2apatriot:


Yeah that guy. I don't speak legalese so I can't say for sure if this is a cease and desist or what. It was just the only thing I knew to call it.
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Originally Posted By 2apatriot:
Originally Posted By USMC6177:
Side note. They sent a C&D to blown deadline? The cerakote guy?
Molon Paint Job?


Yeah that guy. I don't speak legalese so I can't say for sure if this is a cease and desist or what. It was just the only thing I knew to call it.

Would need to see the rest of the document but it sure smells like it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:01:37 PM EST
Well i've never had any 3rd party work on my guns, i've installed several of my own apex kits, does that fall under this?
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:02:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:03:01 PM EST


First the Sigma, now this.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:03:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
I think I'm going to wait until this proves to be real until I break out the torch and pitchfork. A move like this from S&W makes zero sense... and they have been making pretty good decisions the last few years.
View Quote


Yeah, I'm trying to withhold judgement until all the facts are out. I don't know why SSVI would lie though, I mostly just want to see the entire document.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:04:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By packinheavy:
Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work.
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Originally Posted By packinheavy:
Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work.

We are intellectual property counsel for Smith and Wesson Corp. ("Smith & Wesson"). We are writing to you concerning the unlawful modification of Smith & Wesson's products and unauthorized use of Smith & Wesson's federally protected trademarks by Apex Tactical Specialties, Inc's("Apex"), Brownells Inc.("Brownells"), DP Custom Works LLC("DP"), Blowndeadline Custom ("Blowndeadline"), and SSVi LLC ("SSVi) (collectively, "you").
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:04:39 PM EST
Aftermarket parts and upgrades is what attracts me to most guns, the ability to make it how I want it. I bought a Shield this year and if I knew this was coming, I would have got something else.

They just shit on the customer.

And no, I don't want that performance center version. I don't like the sights and I don't want the porting.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:05:25 PM EST
they got the ergonomics of the pistol pretty darn good. If they could have only went the extra mile and made the trigger nice as well there would be less of a desire for those aftermarket apex parts. I wouldn't own my M&P without those apex parts.

I would have paid the extra cost to get a factory S&W that shot like it had apex parts in it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:07:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2015 1:08:20 PM EST by southerngunner]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2apatriot:


Yeah, I'm trying to withhold judgement until all the facts are out. I don't know why SSVI would lie though, I mostly just want to see the entire document.
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Originally Posted By 2apatriot:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
I think I'm going to wait until this proves to be real until I break out the torch and pitchfork. A move like this from S&W makes zero sense... and they have been making pretty good decisions the last few years.


Yeah, I'm trying to withhold judgement until all the facts are out. I don't know why SSVI would lie though, I mostly just want to see the entire document.

Its on blowndeadlines insta also
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:09:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By southerngunner:

Its on blowndeadlines insta also
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Originally Posted By southerngunner:
Originally Posted By 2apatriot:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
I think I'm going to wait until this proves to be real until I break out the torch and pitchfork. A move like this from S&W makes zero sense... and they have been making pretty good decisions the last few years.


Yeah, I'm trying to withhold judgement until all the facts are out. I don't know why SSVI would lie though, I mostly just want to see the entire document.

Its on blowndeadlines insta also


Any jackass can print some S&W letterheads and mail some letters, though....
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:09:45 PM EST
So if I follow S&W's line of thinking, I cannot buy a car and modify it to increase horsepower. Or buy a pickup and increase ground clearance. And technically, taking the shitty OEM tires off and being better rubber would be forbidden too. The soooo much retard in this lawsuit
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:11:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By frozenny:
So if I follow S&W's line of thinking, I cannot buy a car and modify it to increase horsepower. Or buy a pickup and increase ground clearance. And technically, taking the shitty OEM tires off and being better rubber would be forbidden too. The soooo much retard in this lawsuit
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That is a perfect explanation, right there
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:11:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:11:25 PM EST
I'm an IP lawyer and I'd be very interested to see the rest of the letter to see what their argument is for calling the modifications "unlawful." I'd also be interested to see their trademark argument since advertising parts and repair services for a particular product are generally allowable. It is certainly possible that one or more of the targets of the letter did something to justify a complaint, but it would be unusual for all of them to have done the same thing.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:11:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2015 1:12:48 PM EST by 2apatriot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:


Any jackass can print some S&W letterheads and mail some letters, though....
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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By southerngunner:
Originally Posted By 2apatriot:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
I think I'm going to wait until this proves to be real until I break out the torch and pitchfork. A move like this from S&W makes zero sense... and they have been making pretty good decisions the last few years.


Yeah, I'm trying to withhold judgement until all the facts are out. I don't know why SSVI would lie though, I mostly just want to see the entire document.

Its on blowndeadlines insta also


Any jackass can print some S&W letterheads and mail some letters, though....


Its on Glockporn and Glock fanatics as well. I'm about to check Brownells and Apex. If this turns out to be some asshole pulling a hoax it will probably end bad for said asshole.

ETA: Nothing on Brownells or Apex's insta.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:13:42 PM EST
Not sure what the basis of the "unlawful modification" claim is but the rest sounds like a standard trademark infringement cease and desist letter.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:15:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By monkey_AR:
Not sure what the basis of the "unlawful modification" claim is but the rest sounds like a standard trademark infringement cease and desist letter.
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Yeah... if those companies really are using the logo and whatnot without getting it cleared, they should get a letter.

I can't see a company as big as Brownells doing some shit like that though.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:17:25 PM EST
Screen shot for those of you that can't or don't want to click.

Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:17:57 PM EST
I'm safe.


I never went back to them after the last boycott.



I just never bought the distancing between them and Jizzino.


Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:21:25 PM EST
I'd like to read the whole thing but from what has been posted S&W looks to be shooting themselves in the foot.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 1:21:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2015 1:22:30 PM EST by 2apatriot]
Originally Posted By BHertz:
Screen shot for those of you that can't or don't want to click.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/Hertz/gun%20pics/B1986BF4-97B5-4ACA-B150-011B32472357_zpspdbnolmq.png
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Thanks, added to OP.
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