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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/5/2002 6:51:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2002 10:54:58 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 9:51:16 AM EDT
Mr. Avila, I understand that you are one of the main sources of support for this site. At the risk of sounding like an obsequious weenie, I'll pass along a sincere thanks. Anyway, I've heard a variety of opinions on rate and tempo, and this variety is rivaled only by the difference in opinions regarding the ideal number of sets, of reps, diet, frequency, duration. . . I think that the most important component of a program is the commitment to make the workout a routine. Not a bad idea, for the "beginner" or "born-again" athlete to suck it up and spend the money for a few hours with an experienced personal trainer that will develop a program that fits an individual's goals, abilities, and time. The scheduled meetings, and the money involved, may be a good source of external motivation that will plant the seeds for what can become an immensely rewarding pattern of health and fitness. I've found the web to be a less than ideal source of information for the typical "weightlifter". Seems that the sites are too specialized, too focused, and too limited in their audience. One may cater to the muscle head Venice Beacher only, while another seems to cater only towards those who look for a quick protein-powder solution to their current level of couch potatoiness. One site that I've found to be valuable, if only because it has quite a comprehensive list of muscles, articulations, and functions, is linked to the Navy's Rugby Team Home page: [url=]http://www.nadn.navy.mil/Rugby/workout.htm[/url] The direct link to the site to which I'm referring is: [url=]http://www.exrx.net/[/url] May or may not be interesting to you, but I think that the Navy Rugby link might be a good one to visit, particularly considering the general themes of this AR site. I live in Boulder, CO, a true American fitness capital, but also a Mecca for those who seek the same quick fixes of wheat grass and bee pollen and herbs and spices and potions and tonics that people everywhere seek. I have some insight into what works, and what doesn't, but I'm no Sports Medicine specialist, nor a kinesiologist. I do have some faith in the feeling that there is no way to get in shape (or to stay in shape) except for hard work. Small steps become strides, and everybody's gotta start somewhere. A pubic gym can be intimidating, yes, but I think that the intimidation is not unlike that felt my a pasty Midwesterner when faced with the tanned crowd on a California beach. . . gotta start getting dark by first standing shirtless and pants down. I think Nike's ad campaigns are among the best in the industry, and that their (yes, cliche) "Just Do It" philosophy is good advice. What a tangent I just got on! Don't know if any of that made any sense, and I guess that my answer to your question is that I tend to vary my routine's tempo depending on how I feel on a particular day. If I were smart, then I'd save myself some possible embarrassment by going back and reading over all that I've just typed, and would possibly address your question more directly, but it's a spectacular day outside, and I wanna go play. I look forward to seeing lots of activity in this forum.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:39:41 AM EDT
I see people at the Gym who do their reps in "such a hurry" that I wonder if I train in a Fire Department Gym
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I've noticed that the few times I've been in a gym. If you're doing weight lifting for the long haul, then do it slowly and without jerking. A few decades from now, your body will thank you. You'll get further if you make slow, steady progress than if you have to take time off after an injury. Also, I know gym owners love those people. They get in and out more quickly.
easier to do when you use MOMENTUM!
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True. Although after just over 40 years of lifting, I have learned that sometimes "momentum" lifts like cheat curls or the two Olympic lifts are nice to break-up the monotony. They're just not good as a normal work-out. Here's the best collection of weight lifting links I've found: [url]www.trygve.com/pointer.html[/url] z
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 11:06:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 2:03:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2002 2:05:52 PM EDT by bolt]
[url]EXRX.NET[/url] ....mmmmmmmmmmm
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:10:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:18:51 PM EDT
Good advice. Don't ya hate those guys trying to do dumbell curls w/ 60lbs in each arm and doing the swing thing. I hate that.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:39:38 PM EDT
My main point is that the fixed ideas of 3 sets x 10 reps...
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If you feel like doing three sets, then you're not working hard enough on the first set. [;)]
doing the swing thing.
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And, doing one arm at a time while relaxing the other. If pausing between reps was effective, we'd do it on every exersize.z
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:45:16 PM EDT
Ya, alternating dumbell curls, never understood that one. A good one is incline hammer curls w/ a light weight, done really slow and flexing the bicep at the top...ouch, gotta love the good pain!
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:08:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:00:37 PM EDT
Here's another one of my favorites: The guys who can squat "Over 400 lbs", but when you watch them, their knees barely unlock, let alone having their thighs come close to breaking parallel.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:15:12 PM EDT
Hello! Your goal should dictate your pace. If you goal is strength or size(1) than you should execute your reps slowly. If you are training for power you should execute your reps more quickly...but precede them with a plyometric exercise(2). Muscle fibers are digital...they fire and are 100% contracted or do not fire and are 0% contracted. The body modulates the number of fibers firing according to the stress placed upon it. By lifting quickly, you are training those "first recruited" fibers to propel weight quickly (i.e., POWER). By lifting slowly, the initial fibers contract and then the body recruits more fibers to continue the movement(training more fibers). If you choose to lift slowly, Charles Poliquin has empirically recommended no more than 60 seconds per set(3). For example, 60 seconds divided by 10 reps equals no more than 6 seconds per rep (4 seconds down, 2 seconds up). I would not recommend lifting quickly except after a program of slow/strength lifting.. One thing that I have seen a lot in the gym is the between set and between exercise "dilly dally." That's what turns a 20min routine into a 2hr routine and destroys effectiveness. You should begin your next set (or next exercise) somewhere between 25sec and 120sec after you completed the previous set/exercise (45sec to 75sec being optimal). This means you should not swap sets with your spotting partner...you do your entire routine then you spot for his entire routine. This also means you should not leave the bench/cage/machine, etc. to use the restroom (go before!) or talk to the spandex bunnies, etc. Use 4 25lb plates instead of 2 45lb plates if you intend to change weight in between sets. And place any new plates right below the bar so you can quickly change within the deadline. And use a watch to track that deadline. It's all about intensity. Reps done fast or slow can increase intensity. Shorter breaks between sets/exercises REALLY increases intensity. HTH, James (1) There is very little difference between training for strength and size because the feature that most highly correlates with strength is the cross-section of a muscle's "belly" (i.e., it's size). (2) Plyometrics are a topic worthy of another post. Suffice to say that they are an advanced exercise and injury-causing when done improperly. Basically you are stimulating a "stretch reflex" in the muscles...such as the "quick dip" you do before jumping. (3) Charles Poliquin is a well known conditioning coach. He popularized training for power and periodization. The 60 seconds is from a 1988 article in the NSCA Journal reprinted in Health for Life's The Training Advisor.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:09:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:38:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MP906: Good advice. Don't ya hate those guys trying to do dumbell curls w/ 60lbs in each arm and doing the swing thing. I hate that.
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I do Hammer curls with 85 lb dumbells. I jerk, lunge, dip, whatever it takes. They're sloppy. They make you strong, though. "Isolating" the muscle is fine, if you're trying to sculpt it. For strength, the sloppy jerking, rocking back and forth curls work best. Not only do your BiCeps get a good workout, but also the supporting, buttressing muscles. You need them too! If your goal is to be able to lift more weight, then you need to use all the muscles. Trying to isolate them is unnatural. It's better to lift heavier weight, and let your body compensate, by including the other NECCESSARY muscles.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:47:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2002 6:48:50 AM EDT by MP906]
Ed, Try doing one arm at a time.(ex:Ten reps on one arm, then switch arms) Use the resting arm to brace yourself against a wall or squat rack. I just don't like the idea of one arm hanging there for 2-3 seconds when doing alternating. But, my biceps are "hard gainers". So, I have to really be particular about training them, or they just don't grow! Of coarse, JMHO.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:58:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Originally Posted By MP906: Good advice. Don't ya hate those guys trying to do dumbell curls w/ 60lbs in each arm and doing the swing thing. I hate that.
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I do Hammer curls with 85 lb dumbells. I jerk, lunge, dip, whatever it takes. They're sloppy. They make you strong, though. "Isolating" the muscle is fine, if you're trying to sculpt it. For strength, the sloppy jerking, rocking back and forth curls work best. Not only do your BiCeps get a good workout, but also the supporting, buttressing muscles. You need them too! If your goal is to be able to lift more weight, then you need to use all the muscles. Trying to isolate them is unnatural. It's better to lift heavier weight, and let your body compensate, by including the other NECCESSARY muscles.
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I'm sorry sir, but I must strogly disagree. You don't "sculpt" anything. You either get bigger and stronger or you don't. You either train your biceps to get bigger and stronger, or you train your lower back and shoulders to get bigger and stronger. Pick one. It is far better to train one OR the other, using correct form. Don't turn a bicep curl into a funky-lookin-power clean-type-thingy.[?] Now, there are certainly advantages on cheating a bit on the last repetition or two of the last set...but that is a different animal.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:06:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:11:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2002 7:17:25 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
You either train your biceps to get bigger and stronger, or you train your lower back and shoulders to get bigger and stronger. Pick one.
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I cannot think of a situation in nature, where I would lift something that is heavy, using ONLY my biceps. IF my biceps are being pushed to their maximum capacity, the supporting muscles will be used, too. It is not an "either/or" equation. If your Biceps are getting a work out, to their maximum ability, it does not matter if the shoulders and back do too. If your maximum, isolated curl is 60 lbs, but your max while jerking is 100lbs, the max is max is max. The goal should not be to have Bigger, Stronger biceps. It should be to be stronger, period (bigger is a given). I want to be able to pick up, lift and push the heaviest things that my genetics will allow. It's like Squats. Some bodybuilders keep their legs together, to maximize the leg workout, others, like myself, go as wide as possible. When I squat, I want all of the muscles that are involved, to be INVOLVED. There is no logic behind extreme muscle isolation, other than body-sculpting. A natural strength requires supporting muscles to be involved.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:20:15 AM EDT
But, using momentum and your back and shoulders is taking MOST of the weight off your biceps. I don't see your logic at all. Wide leg squats use supporting muscles, but shoulder width does not??? Please explain this one. At any rate, I'm afraid you won't last long swinging 85lb dumbells back and forth trying to train your biceps. It is generally considered bad form and bad practice in any kind of training, even Olympic lifting, where speed and momentum are purposely used.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:23:55 AM EDT
If you want to do an excercise that is more "practical" and uses many muscles, do power cleans. (quads,glutes, back,shoulders, traps, bi's) It sounds like that is more of what you are aiming for.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:27:06 AM EDT
Yes, the swing takes the weight off of the bicep, SO I ADD MORE WEIGHT. To a point, of course. You have to have a feel for it, and maximize the use of the biceps and others. If by shoulder width, you mean in the squat, of course. I thought that was a given. The wider your grip, in the squat, allows the weight to be lower on your back, more evenly distributing the weight. I guess it's just a different philosophy. I figure, if you can lift more, you're stronger. Formal issues, for me, are about figuring a way to lift the most.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:35:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MP906: If you want to do an excercise that is more "practical" and uses many muscles, do power cleans. (quads,glutes, back,shoulders, traps, bi's) It sounds like that is more of what you are aiming for.
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I do a traditional powerlifting workout. Except, I spread them out, to avoid over-training and injury. Bench -Mondays Squat -Every other Thursday. Deadlift -Every other Thursday. Each day I also do accessories. Low Rack-squats, Hyper-extensions, Rack pulls, Good mornings, Incline bench, closegrip, etc. Trying to find out how strong my genetics will allow me to be.[:)] So far, it's bench that's most frustrating. I can't seem to get to 315. Squat I'm happy with. 500+ Deadllift sucks, but it always does. 475. Rack pulls are the way I can lift the most. From just above the knee, with wraps, I can pick up 1,115 (my lifting partner can hoist 1,500). I used to have a bad back, too.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:38:49 AM EDT
Hey, whatever works for you! I always lift heavy. I'm just a form perfectionist. I don't think twice about correcting people at the gym. I'm a big strength guy myself, although I'm as vain as they come when it comes to looks. Think about formal strength competition. They have several judges to ensure that the excercises are done with correct form and with full range of motion. I have to ask though, do you jerk you body back as you do lat pulldowns? Lift your butt off the bench as you benchpress? I see that a lot as well. It just does not impress me.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:49:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2002 7:50:57 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
I never do lat-pull downs. Or use any machines, for that matter. Yes, my but does come off the bench when I try for big weight. Not always in training, though, depending on my goal for the day. In bench, my legs are spead wide and back. As I lower the weight (to just below my chest), I get a nice bounce off of my upper stomach, thrusting upward with the hips and lower chest. In competion, this is allowed.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 8:32:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 8:34:51 AM EDT
Yep.[:)]
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 11:13:53 AM EDT
Ed, Many athletes use your "momentum" to attempt to build weight, such as on the bench, etc. There is a term for it that I can't remember at the moment, but yes - it is cheating. You're cheating yourself out of time and energy, and into a false sense of confidence that you're gaining muscle. The don't go particularly fast or slow, with the exception of the lat pulldown and standard bicep dumbell curls (simply because I'm lazy and usually dont feel like doing tricep pulldowns [:D]). A 2-to-1 time ratio (down-to-up) usually does the trick for me. I think most people forget that negative resistance is a key part of building [b]strength[/b].
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