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Posted: 11/21/2012 5:49:15 AM EST
Silent but deadly: Special forces seek quiet, subsonic bullets
By Robert Beckhusen, Wired
updated 12:07 PM EST, Tue November 20, 2012 | Filed under: Innovations

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:51:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 5:53:11 AM EST by buckshot_jim]
The bullets coming out of those rifles are completely silent.








There are no bullets coming out of them
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:58:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:00:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:02:06 AM EST
There are propellant burn issues with subsonic rounds that would be solved by using polymer cases? That's a new one.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:05:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
There are propellant burn issues with subsonic rounds that would be solved by using polymer cases? That's a new one.


I guess maybe if you mold them a bit thicker and reduce the case capacity versus standard brass cases, you get a better pack ratio on your powder which can get you some efficiency gains without costing extra weight over the brass case.

Maybe that's what they meant?

Poor article overall, though.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:08:33 AM EST
Umm, doesn't the .300 AAC Blackout get a complete powder burn in 8" barrels?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:08:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By sovereign:
Dupe!


Um, no. That is a derailed abortion that hasn't been cleaned up yet.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:09:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By sovereign:
Dupe!


The other thread is ghey.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:12:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Umm, doesn't the .300 AAC Blackout get a complete powder burn in 8" barrels?


It works great in 8" barrels. Subsonics in BLK seem to have no issue with obturation at those pressures, either, though I have come across the powder issues. The ball powders suitable for the subsonics and pressure curve do have burn issues at the lower pressures and can be pretty inconsistent, but still entirely usable.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:12:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Umm, doesn't the .300 AAC Blackout get a complete powder burn in 8" barrels?


Yes, but the shortened case and larger bullets significantly reduce the available case capacity for the powder.

Less room to expand = higher pressure
Higher pressure = faster burn
Faster burn + less powder to begin with = complete burn even in short barrels

And 300blk is still only a ~25ksi pressure cartridge, which is about half of a 5.56.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:14:43 AM EST
Game changer.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:18:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:19:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By sovereign:
Dupe!


Um, no. That is a derailed abortion that hasn't been cleaned up yet.
Hey Boss

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:25:38 AM EST
As the article pointed out "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" when talking about rifle-weight projos, velocity, and noise.

Depending on mission, sometimes the old school 85% solution is close enough:







Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:26:04 AM EST
Silent but deadly, for a second I thought they were talking about MRE's.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:30:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By sovereign:
Dupe!


Um, no. That is a derailed abortion that hasn't been cleaned up yet.
Hey Boss



Mornin'.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:33:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:33:52 AM EST


Frankly, I figure the above (including some 300 BLK offering) to be the more viable solution when compared to attempting to develop subsonics for existing calibers in standard rifles. It's not as if HSLD guys are constantly running into show-stoppers in the form of a need for subsonic ammunition.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:40:52 AM EST
I thought they had a tool for this kind of thing?

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:44:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:


Frankly, I figure the above (including some 300 BLK offering) to be the more viable solution when compared to attempting to develop subsonics for existing calibers in standard rifles. It's not as if HSLD guys are constantly running into show-stoppers in the form of a need for subsonic ammunition.

Come on. You know the military procurement system. All of the above 1) exist, 2) work, and 3) can be had for the cost of purchase.

That means no tax-payer dollars to waste. No chance at cush promotions for make work. No chance for a nice job after retirement.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:47:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By springermania:
I thought they had a tool for this kind of thing?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4143/4750978485_063a15811a.jpg

What is that?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:47:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By springermania:
I thought they had a tool for this kind of thing?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4143/4750978485_063a15811a.jpg


when .22 is too much.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:48:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By wingnutx:

Originally Posted By springermania:
I thought they had a tool for this kind of thing?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4143/4750978485_063a15811a.jpg

What is that?


MP-7

a brazalian waxed, hair gelled super secret group with movies, books and discovery channel specials bought them.

but I have probably said too much.

they are very secretive.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:54:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Umm, doesn't the .300 AAC Blackout get a complete powder burn in 8" barrels?


Heretic ,,, hater....loser.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:59:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Recusance:
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Umm, doesn't the .300 AAC Blackout get a complete powder burn in 8" barrels?


Heretic ,,, hater....loser.

How am I a loser?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:59:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By RictusGrin:


Frankly, I figure the above (including some 300 BLK offering) to be the more viable solution when compared to attempting to develop subsonics for existing calibers in standard rifles. It's not as if HSLD guys are constantly running into show-stoppers in the form of a need for subsonic ammunition.


No matter what, you are talking a different ammunition.

a different upper that you throw on your issue weapon is less a logistics hassel than dealing with different mags with different ammo.
A subsonic 22? ruger or hi standard suppessed carried as a secondary would probably be simplier.

But I see the attraction of a simple mag swap.

Of course, more money thrown at contracters by the endless coffers of SOCOM isn't really news.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:04:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:


Frankly, I figure the above (including some 300 BLK offering) to be the more viable solution when compared to attempting to develop subsonics for existing calibers in standard rifles. It's not as if HSLD guys are constantly running into show-stoppers in the form of a need for subsonic ammunition.

Come on. You know the military procurement system. All of the above 1) exist, 2) work, and 3) can be had for the cost of purchase.

That means no tax-payer dollars to waste. No chance at cush promotions for make work. No chance for a nice job after retirement.


Indeed, sir. Indeed.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:08:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 7:11:27 AM EST by IcarusY625]
Must be the in thing. I like the MP5SD but the 300BLK looks like it's on steroids by comparison. I want this one..it's the most compact I've seen yet




Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:08:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sylvan:

No matter what, you are talking a different ammunition.

a different upper that you throw on your issue weapon is less a logistics hassel than dealing with different mags with different ammo.
A subsonic 22? ruger or hi standard suppessed carried as a secondary would probably be simplier.

But I see the attraction of a simple mag swap.

Of course, more money thrown at contracters by the endless coffers of SOCOM isn't really news.


I figure that different ammunition which is specifically designes for the task is a much better answer than forcing existing chamberings to work with new subsonic loads. It voids many technical difficulties. I like the idea of an interchangeable upper receiver, though the old subgun solution is viable, even if it comes without the kind of versatility other solutions might have. As you said, it's not like there isn't money for it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:11:27 AM EST
I hate sub-guns on general principle.

My initial distrust of 300 whitein is fading rapidly.

that actually strikes me as a viable round with applications.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:12:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I hate sub-guns on general principle.

My initial distrust of 300 whitein is fading rapidly.

that actually strikes me as a viable round with applications.



I like it.


I'd also like prices when it becomes a .mil caliber and mass production kicks in.


And range brass scrounging
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:13:30 AM EST
I suppose it depends on your anticipated environment. Ours is most likely inside 150m down to point blank and urban to buiding clearance. Seems like a good option to me, if it becomes more commercially viable.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:13:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
Must be the in thing. I like the MP5SD but the 300BLK looks like it's on steroids by comparison. I want this one..it's the most compact I've seen yet






I wonder how that is for getting hot with moderate usage.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:17:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I hate sub-guns on general principle.


As do I.

My initial distrust of 300 whitein is fading rapidly.

that actually strikes me as a viable round with applications.


As long as one doesn't stretch context too far.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:20:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
I suppose it depends on your anticipated environment. Ours is most likely inside 150m down to point blank and urban to buiding clearance. Seems like a good option to me, if it becomes more commercially viable.


I agree. Supersonics like the Barnes 110 TTSX would work wonderfully in SBRs under those conditions. Barrier penetration would be a trade off compared to 5.56mm, I believe. The BLK seems to do better in laminated glass, auto bodies and typical construction materials, which is great, but a slight liability over 5.56mm in a LE environment. Splitting hairs, in a way.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:28:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
Must be the in thing. I like the MP5SD but the 300BLK looks like it's on steroids by comparison. I want this one..it's the most compact I've seen yet






I wonder how that is for getting hot with moderate usage.
We are unlikely to get a full auto option so would work well for us, I think. Some of the people we work with might have to restrain themselves a little..

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:29:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I hate sub-guns on general principle.


As do I.

My initial distrust of 300 whitein is fading rapidly.

that actually strikes me as a viable round with applications.


As long as one doesn't stretch context too far.


For civilian defensive or police use there isn't much context to stretch. Damn near the only thing that matters for civi or CONUS police use is <50 yards.

I have been scoffed on the "Variant" board for stating that an AR is a fighting rifle first and any hunting utility is just a bonus. If they like
6.8 or 6.5 there is nobody stopping them for getting one, but some seem to take is almost as a personal insult that anyone decided
that 300blk fits his needs better than their pet round.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:34:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By makintrax73:
Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I hate sub-guns on general principle.


As do I.

My initial distrust of 300 whitein is fading rapidly.

that actually strikes me as a viable round with applications.


As long as one doesn't stretch context too far.


For civilian defensive or police use there isn't much context to stretch. Damn near the only thing that matters for civi or CONUS police use is <50 yards.

I have been scoffed on the "Variant" board for stating that an AR is a fighting rifle first and any hunting utility is just a bonus. If they like
6.8 or 6.5 there is nobody stopping them for getting one, but some seem to take is almost as a personal insult that anyone decided
that 300blk fits his needs better than their pet round.



I built my 300blk for up close type occasions.

The fact it did pretty well past 200 is a bonus.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:40:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:43:01 AM EST
Not that tough. My bullets don't make a peep sitting there in my reloading room. Maybe a little rattling if I pick up the box.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:43:36 AM EST
The suppressed Greasegun with the suede hand guard around the can is the WHIP.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:47:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
Must be the in thing. I like the MP5SD but the 300BLK looks like it's on steroids by comparison. I want this one..it's the most compact I've seen yet






I wonder how that is for getting hot with moderate usage.
We are unlikely to get a full auto option so would work well for us, I think. Some of the people we work with might have to restrain themselves a little..



I seldom use the FA option on my issues carbine, but I often have difficulty with the forend being too hot to touch during training. Granted, there is a difference between the two scenarios, but I worry that an integrally suppressed BLK using the forend as the tube could cause a hear issue in short order. I shoot a BLK set up nearlythe same and have had no problem with this, though my round count is relatively tiny compared to the volume of 5.56mm I shoot. I am curious to know how that works.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:49:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By makintrax73:

For civilian defensive or police use there isn't much context to stretch. Damn near the only thing that matters for civi or CONUS police use is <50 yards.

I have been scoffed on the "Variant" board for stating that an AR is a fighting rifle first and any hunting utility is just a bonus. If they like
6.8 or 6.5 there is nobody stopping them for getting one, but some seem to take is almost as a personal insult that anyone decided
that 300blk fits his needs better than their pet round.



I tend to agree with your points.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:53:01 AM EST
Better have sharp pointy ends.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:53:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 7:53:20 AM EST by gearjammer351]
The melted leading can be a pain in the ass to remove, and can permanently damage the weapon unless it's cleaned.


Since when do 'reporters' say things like "pain in the ass". That sure isn't old-fashioned journalism.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:53:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 8:13:43 AM EST by TxRabbitBane]
Silent but deadly = my wife after a big dim sum meal....

Fucking ninjas are scared of her ass...
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:02:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By gearjammer351:
The melted leading can be a pain in the ass to remove, and can permanently damage the weapon unless it's cleaned.


Since when do 'reporters' say things like "pain in the ass". That sure isn't old-fashioned journalism.

It's Wired magazine. Online.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:04:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By gearjammer351:
The melted leading can be a pain in the ass to remove, and can permanently damage the weapon unless it's cleaned.


Since when do 'reporters' say things like "pain in the ass". That sure isn't old-fashioned journalism.


Did you read the comments?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:15:07 AM EST
looks like the government is going to be spending a big fat shitload of money to come up with some tiny improvement to something that is literally on the ABC level of wildcatting

it's interesting to note that a lot of sucessful commercial cartridges started as hobby wildcat rounds developed by guys with a $60 press in their basement, but the government needs $300M to do the same work
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:18:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:

Originally Posted By gearjammer351:
The melted leading can be a pain in the ass to remove, and can permanently damage the weapon unless it's cleaned.


Since when do 'reporters' say things like "pain in the ass". That sure isn't old-fashioned journalism.

It's Wired magazine. Online.


I see. I saw the CNN logo and not the Wired one.
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