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Posted: 9/8/2005 10:55:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 10:56:32 AM EDT by Dino]
the Dallas International Shroud of Turin Conference is going on this week and weekend. I was going to go check it out, but the price for entrance is $300 (ouch)

There is new evidence that the medieval dating is wrong and wondered what everyone thought about the shroud.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:21:24 AM EDT
Yet another Utter farce by those who prey on the faith of others.

Not to offend, but there it is.

Right along with bones of saints, pieces of the true cross, blood that magically reconstitutes itself and the ENTIRE cult of marianism.

Dram out

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:26:36 AM EDT
fair enough

I've always found the subject fascinating. We still don't know how the image was formed.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:42:59 AM EDT

It contains pollens only found in Jerusalem at the time of year he was crucified. No one in medieval France would have thought of that if they made it. They didn’t even know about pollens. There is no way it’s a fake.

The Catholics have the remains of the cross, the nails, the crown, and even the cup known as the grail. They even carried the house Mary lived in, stone by stone, reconstructed it in Italy and built a church around it.

They don’t publicize that they have these items. You have to dig to find them.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:19:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 12:20:30 PM EDT by WildBoar]
I see no signifigance with the alleged shroud. I personally dont think its a matter to get worked up about. I actually think its dangerous and borders on idolatry for some people.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:40:41 PM EDT
Robert,

Those things you just said that the catholics possess are utterly and beyond reproach, false.

The scientists that have "studied" the shroud are catholic are just rubber stamping it.

If you really are any type of student of history, you will know what a booming market there was in medieval Europe to have "holy" reliquaries for the ignorant peasants to pay to see or for royalty to possess.

It is utterly laughable.

So is the shroud.

Someones faith is not a laughing matter, but the OBJECT of their faith IS.

If you like Monty Python, go watch watch Life of Brian and see how the market in "holy" objects likely were started.

Dram out
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:00:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
the Dallas International Shroud of Turin Conference is going on this week and weekend. I was going to go check it out, but the price for entrance is $300 (ouch)

There is new evidence that the medieval dating is wrong and wondered what everyone thought about the shroud.





So carbon dating and the such isn't accurate eh? The earth realy is 6,000 years old!

Shok
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:22:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I see no signifigance with the alleged shroud. I personally dont think its a matter to get worked up about. I actually think its dangerous and borders on idolatry for some people.



+1 The shroud's authenticity, or lack thereof, has absolutely no bearing on eternal matters. Personally, I don't think it's Jesus' shroud because God has intentionally witheld trinkets like this to help us avoid the temptation to worship objects instead of Him.

You don't need a shroud. You don't need John the Baptist's finger. You don't need a crucifix or a statue of Mary to know God. Those things are distractions.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:30:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 1:32:36 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By Dino:
the Dallas International Shroud of Turin Conference is going on this week and weekend. I was going to go check it out, but the price for entrance is $300 (ouch)

There is new evidence that the medieval dating is wrong and wondered what everyone thought about the shroud.





So carbon dating and the such isn't accurate eh? The earth realy is 6,000 years old!

Shok



they are saying that it dated a medieval patch applied the shroud

funnily enough, that was one of the conspiracy theories floating around after the original STURP dating. It was done to hide the fact that the shroud was real because it proved Jesus had survived the crucifixion and the resurrection never happened
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:03:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 2:06:07 PM EDT by Robert2011]

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Robert,

Those things you just said that the catholics possess are utterly and beyond reproach, false.




Do you think people just threw that stuff away?

The Apostles and early Christians kept all that stuff safe.

There are people setting up fake Katrina disaster relief sites to take in cash. That does not mean real sites do not exist. Don’t let a few fakes take you in. The originals exist and you can see them if you are willing to travel.



eta: The shroud will probably not be tested for some time as some of the scientists are after blood, Jesus' blood that is. They want to clone him. So it will guarded from them.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:34:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Robert,

Those things you just said that the catholics possess are utterly and beyond reproach, false.




Do you think people just threw that stuff away?

The Apostles and early Christians kept all that stuff safe.

There are people setting up fake Katrina disaster relief sites to take in cash. That does not mean real sites do not exist. Don’t let a few fakes take you in. The originals exist and you can see them if you are willing to travel.



eta: The shroud will probably not be tested for some time as some of the scientists are after blood, Jesus' blood that is. They want to clone him. So it will guarded from them.



I'm interested in that kind of stuff, could you post some info or IM it to me?

thanks,
Dino
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:39:20 PM EDT
The authenticity of the shroud has been proven false, beyond reproach. I believe some higher ups at the Vatican even acknowledge it. That said, who cares. Believe what you wish, worship what you wish, just be a decent human being.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:52:52 PM EDT
Don't know if the Shroud of Turin is authentic or not.

But there is some interesting things that are evident.

As someone else pointed out, the Shroud is covered in pollen from trees that only grows around Israel and Syria.

The Shroud depicts the image of someone who has been crucified with the nails going through the wrist, which is the correct way the Romans did it, but during the Medieval Ages, all the artwork of the Crucification shows the nails going through the palm. If the Shroud was fabricated by someone in the Medieval Ages, they probably would have depicted the image with the nails in the palms.

There also used to be the Byzantine Shroud of Constantinople. This was a shroud that depicted the face of Jesus. The Shroud was folded in a particular way so as to show off the face. The Byzantine Shroud of Constantinople disappeared sometime during the Crusades, and shortly after the Christian Armies returned home, the Shroud of Turin appeared on the scene. The Shroud of Turin also shows folding marks that would show just the face portion, just like the missing Byzantine Shroud.

There has been DNA testing on the bloodstains. One group claimed the blood was type AB, very common in the Middle East, not so common in Europe. However, most scientiests say the DNA would be so old, and fragmented that any type of DNA testing or even blood testing would not be possible.

Again, I don't know if it is authentic, but it is an interesting piece of history.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:38:03 PM EDT
Robert,

No, it was NOT kept.

There are NO scripture related to this AT ALL.

There are NO "objects" of veneration ANYWHERE in the New Testament.

NONE.

We have plenty of scripture after the death of Christ, if it was needful for anything, we would KNOW IT.

This is ALL middle ages hogwash concocted for the ignorant masses.

Smoke and mirrors, no more, no less.

Dram
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:32:12 PM EDT

I guess the Bible just appeared out of nowhere since no one was interested at the time.

The fact is early Christians were serious folk and kept safe the artifacts and the stories that went to later make the Bible.

We do the same today with the Liberty Bell, the Betsy Ross flag, and all sorts of things from early American history.

Protestants are very funny to me. They fight with each other over salvation one-liners they base their entire belief on, works, faith, etc., and yet they don’t even know the Catholic church has the Holy Grail in a little church in Spain. Even when the Arabs conquered the area they did not sack the church. In fact they sent jewels and gold to encase the grail in as a sign of respect and honor.

Protestant history won’t cover that because they built their foundations on smoke. They don’t want you to know the truth so they invent legends and rewrite history books to fool you.

The Catholic church has the cup of the last supper, the crown of thorns, the cross, the nails, and the shroud that still has the blood of Jesus on it. They also have the Bible. The Bible is Catholic after all.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:26:48 PM EDT
Thats okay Robert.

I find it shocking that someone believes the hokum that is pushed on unsuspecting folk as "truth", or "historical fact".

Everything you just posted as "fact" is utter nonsense. Has no basis in fact. And if you knew ANYTHING of the period where all this "stuff" miraculously emerged, you would howl with laughter and amazement that anyone would actually believe it.

The true cross, nails, cups... bowls...platters... saints kneebones... hilarious.

Read about Mark Twain and his journey through the holy land and what was there and in Rome in just the 1800's.

I find it hilarious on one hand because it is so utterly absurd. Yet on the other hand I am furious that unscrupulous people would purport these things to be true to ANYBODY.

Robert, you obviously know nothing of the very loose play with the truth in regards to "stories" promulgated by the cath faith in the middle ages.

Oh, and you forgot to mention the "holy lance" that the crusaders waved around that was supposed to have pierced Jesus side.

PT Barnum, cleanup in aisle one please.

Dram out

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:30:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
the Dallas International Shroud of Turin Conference is going on this week and weekend. I was going to go check it out, but the price for entrance is $300 (ouch)

There is new evidence that the medieval dating is wrong and wondered what everyone thought about the shroud.


see if you can do a search on Secrets of the Dead a PBS series they had a good program on the Shroud of Turin jury is still out
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:40:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
I guess the Bible just appeared out of nowhere since no one was interested at the time.

The fact is early Christians were serious folk and kept safe the artifacts and the stories that went to later make the Bible.

We do the same today with the Liberty Bell, the Betsy Ross flag, and all sorts of things from early American history.

Protestants are very funny to me. They fight with each other over salvation one-liners they base their entire belief on, works, faith, etc., and yet they don’t even know the Catholic church has the Holy Grail in a little church in Spain. Even when the Arabs conquered the area they did not sack the church. In fact they sent jewels and gold to encase the grail in as a sign of respect and honor.

Protestant history won’t cover that because they built their foundations on smoke. They don’t want you to know the truth so they invent legends and rewrite history books to fool you.

The Catholic church has the cup of the last supper, the crown of thorns, the cross, the nails, and the shroud that still has the blood of Jesus on it. They also have the Bible. The Bible is Catholic after all.



You gotta just be pushing button now... come on. It's not true because I have all of those items listed. What, ya don't believe me? Oh, you want me to show you....NO. But trust me I have the grail. Take MY word for it that I possess the most saught after Holy relics.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:42:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:19:04 PM EDT

Here is the cup Jesus used at the last supper, circled in blue. The holder below it was a gift from one of the Moslem leaders in Spain.




Everything you have learned about the holy grail in popular culture and the history books is a lie designed to cover up the truth. That is why "artifact" is new to you. You need to take the red pill and open your eyes.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:47:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:48:28 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:58:24 AM EDT
Robert,

I find your faith level to quite admirable.

That said, you are a blatant sheep to believe such utter hogwash.

I have here, in my very own hand, the thigh bone of John the Baptist, some gopher wood from Noahs ark, the true nails (not your false ones) of the cross, Pauls sandal and a fragment of the tents he made...

My lord, you are so so so so gullible...

You know nothing of history. Or of Christ.

Jesus and his disciples were utterly poor dear boy.

ON FLAPPIN' PURPOSE!!!!!!!!

Poor people had cups of WOOD!!!!!!

Metal was an expensive proposition, in no way was the poor Nazarene to have the ostentation of metal. He did not even have an abode!!!!!

M't:8:20: And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.


Christianity is NOT ABOUT "THINGS".

No objects of veneration, or worship, nada zip zilch!!

My friends, ALL things are Holy, as ALL material things have a beginning as a gift of GOD.

The meanest of Dixie cups is just as Holy as that ridiculous jeweled whores flagon that somebody "claims" is that of the passover celebrated by Christ.

There is NO ESPECIALLY holy water, or sand, or blasting media, or alligator shoes, or statues, or butter churns....

Nothing.

You, Robert, and those like you, have strayed so far from the ACTUAL MESSAGE contained in the Word that you can be nothing other than LOST. Wandering hopelessly in a fog made by MAN.

What cup is there that the Son of The Creator might find good enough?

Ac:7:49: Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE THAT WOULD PRETEND TO CLAIM "THINGS" AS THOSE OF GOD???

Jesus IS GOD.

All the earth and its riches belong to Him who created them.

Christs' ministry was to declare salvation, not how to bow or gawk at cups and statues and spears created by the hand of man, to fool his fellow man.

Arrrgh!

Brazen Idolotry!

If you wish to be close to Christ THIS IS the idolotry that you must cast aside.

Enough,

Those who have studied, cannot escape the Will of Christ Jesus contained in the Word. Those others of us here, seek to wallow in man's fables and conjured tales.

I am done here.

Dram out
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:07:44 AM EDT
Here is a little more on the shroud:

"...the shroud contains botanical evidence, such as pollen and flower impressions, that link the shroud unmistakably through the years in Jerusalem, Turkey and south-central Europe, which would confirm the trail of historical ownership. Most poignant to the investigation of whether the shroud belonged to Christ is that the botanicals found on the shroud correspond to pollens of Jerusalem during the first century. Tucker's study concluded that 37 different species of pollen or flower impressions on the linen came from the area of Palestine, many of them from the Jerusalem area. Two species of pollen found on the shroud, Tucker points out, overlap only in Jerusalem.

Going even further with botanical evidence, Tucker says his team concluded, based on the evidence gathered in years previous, that all 37 species of pollen from the shroud not only grow around Palestine but "flower or fruit" between March and April. One species of caper found on the shroud flowers only between "3 or 4 in the afternoon."

A shroud made of linen in a first-century fashion with forensic evidence that concludes it is from Jerusalem during March or April, maybe used around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Could this in fact be the burial cloth of Jesus?

"Most probably, yes ... what we're seeing here is the burial shroud of Christ," says Tucker. He makes this conclusion based not only on the botanical evidence but on other historical evidence, such as images similar to that found on the shroud from coins of the first century."
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:03:29 PM EDT
We know from the Gospel of St John that the shroud, that covered the face of Jesus was rolled up and set to one side in the tomb.

The shroud is a PROOF of the Resurrection, so it has alot to do with the Gospel.

Look at it this way: you Protestants believe in the divine inspiration of a book....which doesn't anywhere say it is an exact play by play description of events and exhaustive catechism of all there is to say about Jesus and what he did (In fact St John says the opposite).

There are alot more truths revealed to mankind by Jesus than were written down. The bible itself says so.

Anything that was related to Jesus proves that he existed, lived, died, and rose.

As for relics not being used, please explain Acts to us where people used cloth that touched Paul's skin to drive out demons and how Peter's shadow could cure people.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 1:00:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
We know from the Gospel of St John that the shroud, that covered the face of Jesus was rolled up and set to one side in the tomb.

The shroud is a PROOF of the Resurrection, so it has alot to do with the Gospel.

Look at it this way: you Protestants believe in the divine inspiration of a book....which doesn't anywhere say it is an exact play by play description of events and exhaustive catechism of all there is to say about Jesus and what he did (In fact St John says the opposite).

There are alot more truths revealed to mankind by Jesus than were written down. The bible itself says so.

Anything that was related to Jesus proves that he existed, lived, died, and rose.

As for relics not being used, please explain Acts to us where people used cloth that touched Paul's skin to drive out demons and how Peter's shadow could cure people.



The shroud is proof of absolutely nothing. Without 100% assurance -- and I mean total, unchallenged authenticity -- it is useless as "proof". God knows of man's tendency to stray away from Him and to substitute objects in His place. This tendency is at the very root of heresy! It is so dangerous, that He addressed this in the very first commandment! For this reason, God has protected us from these tempting trinkets of heresy.

Please re-read Dramborleg's last post above. Turn away from the meaningless icons and focus your attention where He commands it. You don't need relics to prove anything -- they are nothing more than a distraction that plays into the hand of the enemy.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 1:17:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 1:18:20 PM EDT by KnobCreek]
I believe in Santa Claus....and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. How do you know raindeer can't fly? Just because you've never seen it.

If somebody wants or NEEDS to be assured that Jesus was real, via objects, let 'em. I personally don't need nor do I care as it affects my beliefs not at all. If you need/want the shroud...use it for all it's worth. If you think it a crock of proverbial shit, then move on.

Either way, I believe in Santa Claus
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 1:21:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
It contains pollens only found in Jerusalem at the time of year he was crucified. No one in medieval France would have thought of that if they made it. They didn’t even know about pollens. There is no way it’s a fake.

The Catholics have the remains of the cross, the nails, the crown, and even the cup known as the grail. They even carried the house Mary lived in, stone by stone, reconstructed it in Italy and built a church around it.

They don’t publicize that they have these items. You have to dig to find them.



ya right
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:04:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:


...and the ENTIRE cult of marianism.

Dram out




Cult of marianism? Is that referring to Mary, the mother of Jesus, or Mary Magdalene?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:18:46 PM EDT
Shane,

Cult of deifying mary the physical mother of Jesus. IE marianism. The cultic beliefs that were applied to the goddess Athena if I am correct, who had a son of virgin birth and this goddess was widely worshipped across Roman lands. It was incorporated into catholic worship as "mary mother of god". She is co-redeemer with the catholic version of christ, she is an intercessor for catholic sin as she is supposed to be gods buddy. No matter that NONE of this is in the bible, like I say it is a flat out cult.

Period.

I will do research and be back to update.

Dram
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:32:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Shane,

Cult of deifying mary the physical mother of Jesus. IE marianism. The cultic beliefs that were applied to the goddess Athena if I am correct, who had a son of virgin birth and this goddess was widely worshipped across Roman lands. It was incorporated into catholic worship as "mary mother of god". She is co-redeemer with the catholic version of christ, she is an intercessor for catholic sin as she is supposed to be gods buddy. No matter that NONE of this is in the bible, like I say it is a flat out cult.

Period.

I will do research and be back to update.

Dram



Oh, I see. So it is referring to Mary the mother of Jesus.

I agree that there is nothing in scripture that would indicate a need to worship Mary or pray to her.

That said, she was the earthly mother of Jesus and must have been a supremely special person to have been given such a sacred responsibility.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:49:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Oh, I see. So it is referring to Mary the mother of Jesus.

I agree that there is nothing in scripture that would indicate a need to worship Mary or pray to her.

That said, she was the earthly mother of Jesus and must have been a supremely special person to have been given such a sacred responsibility.



An aside, all the "hail Mary" prayers I've seen" are for Mary to pray to Jesus on your behalf.


example:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.

Amen.

There's nothing wrong per se to pray "for" Mary, as you can pray for anybody, but to pray "to" Mary as a God figure doesn't make Biblical sense.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:54:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 6:37:44 PM EDT by BlammO]
She was a mortal sinner like the rest of us, in a sense. Jesus didn't put any special deific importance on her. Why should we?

John was rebuked for bowing before an angel:

"8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

-- Revelation 22:8-9 (NIV)

To depend on an intercessor is to deny the sufficiency of the cross. God gave us direct access to Him, specifically so we don't need an intermediary! Is God so weak that He needs helpers to deal with us? Don't bow down before Mary! Honor and respect her as you would any other fellow Christian, but don't let yourself even come close to the heresy of placing a false god before Him!

[Edit for typo]
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 3:49:43 PM EDT
Amen Blammo, Amen!

Dram
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:36:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 5:37:30 PM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By Dino:
the Dallas International Shroud of Turin Conference is going on this week and weekend. I was going to go check it out, but the price for entrance is $300 (ouch)

There is new evidence that the medieval dating is wrong and wondered what everyone thought about the shroud.




$300 dollars....nothing against the shroud discussion, but it sounds like a quack convention and the leader needs a new Ferrari.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:41:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:
$300 dollars....nothing against the shroud discussion, but it sounds like a quack convention and the leader needs a new Ferrari.



+1, true science is published in scholarly journals for free for all to examine the evidence
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:47:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 5:48:59 PM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:
$300 dollars....nothing against the shroud discussion, but it sounds like a quack convention and the leader needs a new Ferrari.



+1, true science is published in scholarly journals for free for all to examine the evidence




Yeah, and it's not kept in the bowels of the Vatican for the most special of the faithful can see. The best way to control and manipulate a group of people is to keep them ignorant and feed them what they WANT to hear and believe. That said, if ya want to hear and believe it, all the power to you. Just don't impose them on anybody else.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:40:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Shane,

Cult of deifying mary the physical mother of Jesus. IE marianism. The cultic beliefs that were applied to the goddess Athena if I am correct, who had a son of virgin birth and this goddess was widely worshipped across Roman lands. It was incorporated into catholic worship as "mary mother of god". She is co-redeemer with the catholic version of christ, she is an intercessor for catholic sin as she is supposed to be gods buddy. No matter that NONE of this is in the bible, like I say it is a flat out cult.

Period.

I will do research and be back to update.

Dram

Did you ever research the Dead Sea Scrolls, JESUS was part of a cult himself called the Essenes who were an orthodox sect of the Jewish religion where every woman was considered a virgin and the virgin birth was symbolic, if if I gotta argue with you guys I had better start researching myself , I remember reading about this but I gotta show proof so I wil link....
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:42:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:
$300 dollars....nothing against the shroud discussion, but it sounds like a quack convention and the leader needs a new Ferrari.



+1, true science is published in scholarly journals for free for all to examine the evidence




Yeah, and it's not kept in the bowels of the Vatican for the most special of the faithful can see. The best way to control and manipulate a group of people is to keep them ignorant and feed them what they WANT to hear and believe. That said, if ya want to hear and believe it, all the power to you. Just don't impose them on anybody else.

the Catholic religion in a nutshell....
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:46:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Shane,

Cult of deifying mary the physical mother of Jesus. IE marianism. The cultic beliefs that were applied to the goddess Athena if I am correct, who had a son of virgin birth and this goddess was widely worshipped across Roman lands. It was incorporated into catholic worship as "mary mother of god". She is co-redeemer with the catholic version of christ, she is an intercessor for catholic sin as she is supposed to be gods buddy. No matter that NONE of this is in the bible, like I say it is a flat out cult.

Period.

I will do research and be back to update.

Dram

Did you ever research the Dead Sea Scrolls, JESUS was part of a cult himself called the Essenes who were an orthodox sect of the Jewish religion where every woman was considered a virgin and the virgin birth was symbolic, if if I gotta argue with you guys I had better start researching myself , I remember reading about this but I gotta show proof so I wil link....




What's the difference between a cult and a religion besides wide spread societal recognition.

I speaking of the literal version of a cult, not the movie version
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:47:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I see no signifigance with the alleged shroud. I personally dont think its a matter to get worked up about. I actually think its dangerous and borders on idolatry for some people.



And I am sure you personnaly know these people. This statement is just like saying, "I actually think it is dangerous and borders on faithlessness that some people do not show humility before the garmets that Jesus wore as an act of respect and reverence."

Sorry for being abrasive, but if the shoe fits.....
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:04:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Robert,

Those things you just said that the catholics possess are utterly and beyond reproach, false.

The scientists that have "studied" the shroud are catholic are just rubber stamping it.

If you really are any type of student of history, you will know what a booming market there was in medieval Europe to have "holy" reliquaries for the ignorant peasants to pay to see or for royalty to possess.

It is utterly laughable.

So is the shroud.

Someones faith is not a laughing matter, but the OBJECT of their faith IS.

If you like Monty Python, go watch watch Life of Brian and see how the market in "holy" objects likely were started.

Dram out



Seeing as how you can't even spell the word Catholic correct, I don't think I will chalk your comments up as genious.

Yes, there were people who have capatilized on false relics (not just the Catholics, by the way). And yes, faith is not a laughing matter. But for some of us, the physical world and the spiritual world can share common space: sacred. I am sure that you pesonnaly have researched what faith each of the scientist are who have researched the shoud and know all of their names.

I swear, sometimes when I read the shit posted on this site about matters of faith, I think it is like a physicist watching a buch of four-year-olds argue about the Schrodinger equation as if they even know what it is about or comprehend it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:05:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:06:34 PM EDT by Robert2011]
Idolatry!

You have got to be kidding.

Is putting a cross in front of your church idolatry? No matter, if you have one inside it surely must be. God is not two sticks of wood so you lumber worshipers are in trouble.

There is nothing wrong with saving the cup or the shroud or putting it on display for people to see. It’s part of the Christian faith which so many here are denying. It really gets to them early believers saved them for future generations. The Taliban destroying the Buddha have nothing on you.

I am perfectly happy with nativity scenes, crosses on hillsides, in churches, and on the cover of the Bible.

BTW, the shroud only came into church ownership about 20 or so years ago.

And we ask Mary mother of God to pray for us. It’s no different from people here asking for people to pray for them or a loved one.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:06:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Shane,

Cult of deifying mary the physical mother of Jesus. IE marianism. The cultic beliefs that were applied to the goddess Athena if I am correct, who had a son of virgin birth and this goddess was widely worshipped across Roman lands. It was incorporated into catholic worship as "mary mother of god". She is co-redeemer with the catholic version of christ, she is an intercessor for catholic sin as she is supposed to be gods buddy. No matter that NONE of this is in the bible, like I say it is a flat out cult.

Period.

I will do research and be back to update.

Dram



And here we go again... That would be God with a capital "G". Catholic with a capital "C". And, by the way, please quote me the verse that says that the Bible is the only source of revelation from God. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:09:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:10:01 PM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Idolatry!

You have got to be kidding.

Is putting a cross in front of your church idolatry? No matter, if you have one inside it surely must be. God is not two sticks of wood so you lumber worshipers are in trouble.

There is nothing wrong with saving the cup or the shroud or putting it on display for people to see. It’s part of the Christian faith which so many here are denying. It really gets to them early believers saved them for future generations. The Taliban destroying the Buddha have nothing on you.

I am perfectly happy with nativity scenes, crosses on hillsides, in churches, and on the cover of the Bible.

BTW, the shroud only came into church ownership about 20 or so years ago.

And we ask Mary mother of God to pray for us. It’s no different from people here asking for people to pray for them or a loved one.




My God, stop it. Please stop re...pea...ting this....I can't take it.

Thank you, Phew
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:09:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Oh, I see. So it is referring to Mary the mother of Jesus.

I agree that there is nothing in scripture that would indicate a need to worship Mary or pray to her.

That said, she was the earthly mother of Jesus and must have been a supremely special person to have been given such a sacred responsibility.



An aside, all the "hail Mary" prayers I've seen" are for Mary to pray to Jesus on your behalf.


example:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.

Amen.

There's nothing wrong per se to pray "for" Mary, as you can pray for anybody, but to pray "to" Mary as a God figure doesn't make Biblical sense.



First of all, much of the prayer comes from the Biblical quotation of the Angel Gabriel to Mary.

Secondy, we are asking her to pray for us. Just like we ask all of the saints and angels to pray for us. So I guess we are making gods of all the saints and angels in heaven, by your logic.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:10:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:13:55 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I see no signifigance with the alleged shroud. I personally dont think its a matter to get worked up about. I actually think its dangerous and borders on idolatry for some people.



And I am sure you personnaly know these people. This statement is just like saying, "I actually think it is dangerous and borders on faithlessness that some people do not show humility before the garmets that Jesus wore as an act of respect and reverence."

Sorry for being abrasive, but if the shoe fits.....



Wait hold on, take that shoe off.

I didnt mean it to say that. Thnks for putting words into my mouth.

I meant that some people get to fixiated on objests, they tend to put all their attention into the object. They become consumed with the object , its history, it craftsmanship, etc. I didnt meant they will worship it, but some can lose focus.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:22:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2005 3:15:15 AM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Josey and Robert,

I have a 3 gun match tomorrow morning so I will be back right at you when I return.

I do NOT capitalize catholic for a reason.

It is an empty gesture to do so.

****Edited****<va-gunnut>

Christianity on the other hand is of God, by God, and thru Christ Jesus.


And no Robert, there are NO SYMBOLS in Christs Church.

NONE.

No NOTHING.

Josey, you are gonna have to stand in line behind Robert as to unfortunate gullibillty.

I will address this on the morrow.

Good evening gentlemen.

Dram out
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:37:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:41:55 PM EDT by cobra-ak]
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 3:52:56 PM EDT
Nice edit

Dram
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 1:06:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:
$300 dollars....nothing against the shroud discussion, but it sounds like a quack convention and the leader needs a new Ferrari.



+1, true science is published in scholarly journals for free for all to examine the evidence



actually most conferences charge a hefty fee for entrance. Anyone in the field gets a comp pass, but they want to keep the rabble out.

I had to pay $250 for a conference on nuclear power when I was still in that field
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 8:52:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 8:53:20 PM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:
$300 dollars....nothing against the shroud discussion, but it sounds like a quack convention and the leader needs a new Ferrari.



+1, true science is published in scholarly journals for free for all to examine the evidence



actually most conferences charge a hefty fee for entrance. Anyone in the field gets a comp pass, but they want to keep the rabble out.

I had to pay $250 for a conference on nuclear power when I was still in that field



Wow... if that's the norm for a conference. That said, regardless of topic, if you're getting the top people in a particular field in one place it's prolloly worth it, for someone.
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