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Posted: 10/8/2005 7:02:28 PM EDT
What about the infrastructure for the venue? Roads, utilities, whatnot?

First off, I'm not what you'd call a big time sports fanatic. When I do watch a sporting event, it's from the comfort of my own living room.

With the possible exception of the Green Bay Packers (correct me if I'm wrong), every professional and minor league sport team is a private enterprise.

Why should even a dime of taxpayers $$$ be spent on a professional sports team or their venue?

Your team. You want it, you build it, you pay for it.

The Eminent Domain thread www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=397189 had me thinking about this (actually, I've been a long time opponent of using public funds for private purposes).

While the ED option is far more drastic and unacceptable, the reasoning is still the same... creating more jobs and a tax base for the "public good".
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:03:27 PM EDT
My tax dollars for anything sports related?

Not just NO, but HELL NO!

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:03:59 PM EDT
No, and hell no.

And don't start that "brings jobs and money to the community" BS because it doesn't.  

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:06:06 PM EDT
No, it should not.  And, i will go on record as saying that I would really like to see some old codger with nothing left but his home and his dignity, credit for that phrase to another board member, go Waco when they come to take what is his.  Few things in this sweet world angry up ole' Ninja's blood like ED abuse.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:06:39 PM EDT
Infrastructure? Eh.

Stadium/arena/field construction? HELL NO. I don't see it as any different from building an office building for me, or a machine shop for my buddy the machinist - and that is just plain wrong.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:09:17 PM EDT
I don't mind depending.

They used tax money to build a stadium in NEPA, but that did it out where there was absolutely nothing. Now there's a whole lot of stores, restaurants, etc. off on the new exit on I-81. Nobody lost a house over it, IIRC. It's also why Wilkes-Barre Township no longer sucks economically and all related fields. Wilkes-Barre (City) didn't want the arena, and still sucks.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:11:37 PM EDT
No.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:12:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
My tax dollars for anything sports related?

Not just NO, but HELL NO!




+1,000,000,000
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:15:35 PM EDT
no.

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:16:24 PM EDT
NO
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:17:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2005 7:17:58 PM EDT by raven]
Sure, as long as there's a vote on it.

BTW, the Packers are publicly owned?  Or just the stadium?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:17:56 PM EDT
Hell no!!!

Stop paying millions upon millions of dollars a year to people for playing a damn game and there should be no problem finding the necessary funds.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:18:43 PM EDT
Definitely. Especially if the government steals people's property in the process.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:21:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By giacutter:
No, and hell no.

And don't start that "brings jobs and money to the community" BS because it doesn't.  




Yeah, no shit!!!

Alameda county resident here.

Home of the Oakland Raiders!!!

I wish to F**K that they had stayed in L.A.!!!

Al Davis is a smart businessman. And a worldclass ASSHOLE!!!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:22:02 PM EDT
Negative.

The good ol' laws of Capitalism will decide as to whether it should survive or not.





Just like it should with PBS.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By giacutter:
No, and hell no.

And don't start that "brings jobs and money to the community" BS because it doesn't.  




+1

but you're wrong about the jobs - there are some created - Cold Drinks, get ya Cold Drinks here!  Popcorn!  Popcorn!  Cold Beer, Cold Beer, right here!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:25:00 PM EDT
If it's wrong to use public money so I can build a pie house it's wrong for said money to build a football stadium.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:26:39 PM EDT

A better question would be, "Do you mind giving your hard earned dollars so some rich people and some more rich athletes get richer?" That's the root at all of this.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:33:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2005 7:36:06 PM EDT by LoginName]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Infrastructure? Eh.




So, you buy or construct a home off the beaten path or even close to a major street.

Suppose this home doesn't have a few basic utilities or necessities like electricity, sewerage, water, phone lines, access road (paved or unpaved).

Local zoning ordinances may or may not mandate that you must have some or all of these.

Who should foot the bill? You, or the taxpayer?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:33:47 PM EDT
HELL NO!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:51:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:
A better question would be, "Do you mind giving your hard earned dollars so some rich people and some more rich athletes get richer?" That's the root at all of this.



You're just jealous because they serve better food and beer in the corporate owned sky boxes.

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:52:20 PM EDT
I think Not
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:57:58 PM EDT
HELL NO
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:01:32 PM EDT
Only if they take enough of the profit from the stadium, ticket sales, concessions, etc. to turn a profit.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:02:28 PM EDT
NO!


I hate that goddamn stadium.


I never use it!

They tax me for it!

It causes traffic jams!


Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:11:26 PM EDT
no
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:13:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:

Originally Posted By lippo:
A better question would be, "Do you mind giving your hard earned dollars so some rich people and some more rich athletes get richer?" That's the root at all of this.



You're just jealous because they serve better food and beer in the corporate owned sky boxes.




Had to remind me of that didn't you! I use to watch ball games from a corporate owned box. Even had a good conversation with the mayor at one game. Now they just want your house, tomorrow it will be your car, so they can sell it to pay for some first basemans salary.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:16:44 PM EDT
If they have money to buy a team, they have money to buy a stadium

So FUCK NO!!!!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:24:02 PM EDT
I don't even want to discuss this it pisses me off so incredibly bad.

Here's just one small example....the MORONS in Hillsborough county (Tampa) voted for a tax increase to pay for the new Tampa/Buccaneers/Raymond James/Whothefuckeverpaysustoputanamehere stadium a few years ago. (Just one more reason I won't live in Hillsborough county but that's beside the point.)

The REAL kicker?

In the bonds for the new stadium they had to include additional funds just to PAY OFF and DEMOLISH the old Tampa stadium...... which WASN'T EVEN PAID FOR YET!  LOL!

Seriously how fuct is that?

Don't even get me started on the blatant money grabbing from the team owners, their refusal to pay taxes, the fact that there are only 11 games played in year in this stupid monstrosity but the team owners get funds from any event held at the stadium.

The public officials in charge of these kinds of giveaways should be run out of town on a crab boat.

But no-one seems to give a damn because "having a professional football team is good for the city's image!" and don't forget..."How 'bout dem Bucs?!?!"

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:25:07 PM EDT
NO, absolutely not.  The role of Government is to provide essential services and essential services alone.  Pisses me off nothing more but to have my money taken from me to fund frog jumping in the park on th 4th of July.  In our state we have a property tax limitation against how much money can be taxed property for schools.  When this measure was passed everyone went ape over it [even though since we've have had a budget surplus annually] and they passed a special levy outside school taxes to supposedly pay for sports.  Now I pay $300 a year for this tax [that provides amoung other things Frog Jumping on the 4th of July] and I still have to pay for my kids to play sports.  I pay $100 per sport per child along with a towel fee, student body fee and all equipment.

Patty
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:26:33 PM EDT
Fuck no.

We've got enough crap for our government to throw our money at.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:27:20 PM EDT
NO
Roads and infrastructure?  Sure.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:30:31 PM EDT
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:41:26 PM EDT
In Seattle,we had a vote. It failed.They built the stadium anyway.
It blew over.
I think all involved should have been impeached.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:44:44 PM EDT
Hell no.......well unless its  a indoor/outdoor shooting range lol
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:47:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2005 8:49:16 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Sure - why not?

If it's put up for a referendum vote and the majority want it - let the will of the people prevail... ya' know, "We The People" - majority rules - democracy - rah-rah and all that? And even if they don't vote for it, sometimes leaders need to make tough choices... on behalf of the common good.

Besides, it's just a couple of dollars extra in taxes - most people lose that much in pocket change.

And it creates jobs - good jobs like construction workers, electricians, plumbers, stadium ninjas, restaurants, foam-finger salespeople, hotels, car rentals... it's a ripple effect of economic prosperity - and community pride to boot!

Go Cardinals!!! There's a winner in town!!


Link Posted: 10/8/2005 9:05:41 PM EDT
I would like to thank the folks of central Indiana for helping build a new stadium for the Colts where I am a season ticket holder. Now having said that Im sick as fuck of the poor white trash and poor "other folks" who constantly bitch about this shit. I dont have kids and dont mind paying taxes to send YOUR vermin to schools and buy thier lunches and god knows what else. I am not in prison but support building the biggest and best ones. I pay more in taxes than some of the people who bitch make and Im god damned ready to see some of MY tax dollars go for something I WANT! Its been shown time and time again that a big multi use stadium WILL pay for itself over time if its managed right and utilized as much as possible. Some stadiums are not set up that way and unfortunatly dont generate other revenue. The new Colts stadium and convention center upgrades will be a further boost to downtown Indy in the long run. Now I know that there are anti's who can drudge up arguments to the opposite. Tough titties, the new retractable roof stadium is going to rock!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 9:12:16 PM EDT
Nope! Voted no on BOB.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 9:19:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LotBoy:
Nope! Voted no on BOB.

Bob got chased away.

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 9:28:59 PM EDT
Dummies, it doesn't matter what we think on this, the politicians have a track record of giving away money for stadiums in city after city.  Sometimes it is just a hotel/rental car fee, other times a sales tax increase.  The local papers seem to keep their mouths shut, and everyone acts outraged when layoffs of cops and teachers comes a few months later.

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 9:41:29 PM EDT
No.  And while we're at it, I think that professional "sports" teams should fund college, highschool, and pee wee league "sports".  Hell, it's their future players that are being trained at the expense of others.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 10:20:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
No.  And while we're at it, I think that professional "sports" teams should fund college, highschool, and pee wee league "sports".  Hell, it's their future players that are being trained at the expense of others.



Good point. They should also pay for the privilege of using the name of the city/area to make money. Unfortunately, some people actually believe that pro teams have some loyalty to their town. They don't.

SOOO.... I'm very opposed to spending money on stadiums in the desperate hope of attracting a pro team.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:28:29 AM EDT
My town spend some dough about 10 year ago to build a stadium for a minor league baseball team.  The team was just sold and moved out of town.  Go figure..

So hell no.

Matt
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:24:46 AM EDT
No, No, No!

Here in the Phoenix metro area we have had a few of these projects, and they are a total waste.

It is a total scam by the government and wealthy to steal our money.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:38:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Sure - why not?

If it's put up for a referendum vote and the majority want it - let the will of the people prevail... ya' know, "We The People" - majority rules - democracy - rah-rah and all that? And even if they don't vote for it, sometimes leaders need to make tough choices... on behalf of the common good.

Besides, it's just a couple of dollars extra in taxes - most people lose that much in pocket change.

And it creates jobs - good jobs like construction workers, electricians, plumbers, stadium ninjas, restaurants, foam-finger salespeople, hotels, car rentals... it's a ripple effect of economic prosperity - and community pride to boot!

Go Cardinals!!! There's a winner in town!!

www.footballamerica.com/images/ArizonaCardinals.jpg



From what I have seen, the finances are usually a net loser for the local community. See Al Davis, Los Angeles, and the Raiders, for example. I think he made more money from the taxpayers than he did from the team itself.  IIRC, an economic study some years back found that most are big losers for the local community.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:40:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tnek:
I would like to thank the folks of central Indiana for helping build a new stadium for the Colts where I am a season ticket holder. Now having said that Im sick as fuck of the poor white trash and poor "other folks" who constantly bitch about this shit. I dont have kids and dont mind paying taxes to send YOUR vermin to schools and buy thier lunches and god knows what else. I am not in prison but support building the biggest and best ones. I pay more in taxes than some of the people who bitch make and Im god damned ready to see some of MY tax dollars go for something I WANT! Its been shown time and time again that a big multi use stadium WILL pay for itself over time if its managed right and utilized as much as possible. Some stadiums are not set up that way and unfortunatly dont generate other revenue. The new Colts stadium and convention center upgrades will be a further boost to downtown Indy in the long run. Now I know that there are anti's who can drudge up arguments to the opposite. Tough titties, the new retractable roof stadium is going to rock!



You will have to pardon other people who think that education for children is somehow more important to the community than your weekend entertainment.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:40:32 AM EDT
Hell No
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:46:43 AM EDT
NO!
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:51:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
What about the infrastructure for the venue? Roads, utilities, whatnot?

First off, I'm not what you'd call a big time sports fanatic. When I do watch a sporting event, it's from the comfort of my own living room.

With the possible exception of the Green Bay Packers (correct me if I'm wrong), every professional and minor league sport team is a private enterprise.

Why should even a dime of taxpayers $$$ be spent on a professional sports team or their venue?

Your team. You want it, you build it, you pay for it.

The Eminent Domain thread www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=397189 had me thinking about this (actually, I've been a long time opponent of using public funds for private purposes).

While the ED option is far more drastic and unacceptable, the reasoning is still the same... creating more jobs and a tax base for the "public good".



We here in  Racine Wisconsin recalled one of our state legislators after he came out opposd to a tax increase for 5 counties to help pay for Miller Park but then voted for it. If he had not done that the whole tax issue would have been dead in the water. I'm not a Brewer fan, I don't live in Milwaukee. I don't believe that I should have to pay more taxes(it is a sales tax) to build a stadium for a team that is based in Milwaukee or any other city in this state. They are not a state owned team they should not get state funds or have special taxes collected to help pay for their shit.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:57:03 AM EDT
Maybe if there is a dedicated revenue stream that will pay the principle and interest on these bonds.  States can sometimes borrow more cheaply than private industry.

County sells bonds for stadium construction and rents and parking pay off bond principle and interest.  This would require a strong contract with the teams renting, one that would not be easy to walk away from.

County sells bonds for roads and tolls pay for bond principle and interest.  This would require real-world economic projections which are hard to come by.

I don't agree with 50.1 % of the people getting a stadium built on the public dime and then "hoping" that increased business makes it a good deal.  I wouldn't agree even if it was 2/3 of the people.  Hope is not a business plan.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:58:38 AM EDT
Nope. But since they are going to regardless, I should get free tickets to the venues.
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