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Archived [ARCHIVED THREAD] - Should doctors ask about guns? (Page 1 of 5)
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Posted: 2/25/2006 1:18:00 PM EDT
Virginia (02/23/2006): Bill to Infringe on Discussing Firearms in a Doctor's Office Defeated in Senate Committee
The Virginia Senate Health and Education Committee defeated a bill that would have banned pediatricians from discussing with or asking their patient's parents whether there is a gun in the home. Unbelievably, this bill passed in the House of Delegates 88-11, but the Senate Committee stopped the bill in its tracks due in large part to the outcry from the Virginia medical community and Voices for Virginia's Children, who were supported by the GVP groups in the state. The bill cannot be brought up again this session.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:23:17 PM EDT
[#1]
the doctors office is not a place to discuss political issues.  the doctor has no business pushing views on NAFTA, Iraq, guns, welfare, the farm bill, port authority, or any other non-medical issues.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:28:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Ask him if you can fuck his wife. If its a female ask her if she likes anal.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:29:32 PM EDT
[#3]
I shoot dogs with my family doc when Im home.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:30:09 PM EDT
[#4]
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:32:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:37:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:

Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


+1

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:39:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:42:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =


Well, can you refute his claim mr troll? Can you prove your claim of Dr's killing 10x more people? I do not know which of you to believe because NEITHER of you provide any stats............

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:43:47 PM EDT
[#9]
my doctor was concerned about introducing his kid to a gun at 10years old , so I actually encouraged him since my kids shot from 5yrs. old and they are quite safe with guns,  

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:43:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Should doctors ask about guns?  


No.

ETA - well, only if they are interested in buying one.  Then they should probably ask some questions before their purchase.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:45:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that  people with guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


There fixed it for ya

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:50:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =


I have a better idea, why dont you post some evidence exonerating the medical profession from this charge and maybe, just maybe I'll change my mind. My personal experience with doctors has been that they are mostly a bunch of overpaid retards. Without exception, I've been misdiagnosed no less than six-times for the same concern. Then I'VE gone on the internet, looked up the symptoms, printed out the treatment, gone back to the doctors office and demanded they follow-it. And wouldnt you know it, I got cured.  

I've had to do this three times in my life when I've had to seek somewhat minor medical attention.  I'm not kidding each time I was misdiagnosed at least six times until I intervened. So yeah, its reaaaal easy for me to believe this. Heck, my dad was getting acid-reflux meds for a heart condition. Thank god he went to a real doctor in London for a second opinion on a vacation. ..damned near saved his life.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:51:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =


I have a better idea, why dont you post some evidence exonerating the medical profession from this charge and maybe, just maybe I'll change my mind. My personal experience with doctors has been that they are mostly a bunch of overpaid retards. Without exception, I've been misdiagnosed no less than six-times for the same concern. Then I'VE gone on the internet, looked up the symptoms, printed out the treatment, gone back to the doctors office and demanded they follow-it. And wouldnt you know it, I got cured.  

I've had to do this three times in my life when I've had to seek somewhat minor medical attention.  I'm not kidding each time I was misdiagnosed at least six times until I intervened. So yeah, its reaaaal easy for me to believe this. Heck, my dad was getting acid-reflux meds for a heart condition. Thank god he went to a real doctor in London for a second opinion on a vacation. ..damned near saved his life.


You call them retards keep going to them and they are the retards?  Just dont go then.  You would be happy and so would they.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:55:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =


I have a better idea, why dont you post some evidence exonerating the medical profession from this charge and maybe, just maybe I'll change my mind. My personal experience with doctors has been that they are mostly a bunch of overpaid retards. Without exception, I've been misdiagnosed no less than six-times for the same concern. Then I'VE gone on the internet, looked up the symptoms, printed out the treatment, gone back to the doctors office and demanded they follow-it. And wouldnt you know it, I got cured.  

I've had to do this three times in my life when I've had to seek somewhat minor medical attention.  I'm not kidding each time I was misdiagnosed at least six times until I intervened. So yeah, its reaaaal easy for me to believe this. Heck, my dad was getting acid-reflux meds for a heart condition. Thank god he went to a real doctor in London for a second opinion on a vacation. ..damned near saved his life.


You call them retards keep going to them and they are the retards?  Just dont go then.  You would be happy and so would they.


So your solution to gross incompetence is to just stop going huh? Nice, glad to see you strive for excellence in life.  

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:05:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =


I have a better idea, why dont you post some evidence exonerating the medical profession from this charge and maybe, just maybe I'll change my mind. My personal experience with doctors has been that they are mostly a bunch of overpaid retards. Without exception, I've been misdiagnosed no less than six-times for the same concern. Then I'VE gone on the internet, looked up the symptoms, printed out the treatment, gone back to the doctors office and demanded they follow-it. And wouldnt you know it, I got cured.  

I've had to do this three times in my life when I've had to seek somewhat minor medical attention.  I'm not kidding each time I was misdiagnosed at least six times until I intervened. So yeah, its reaaaal easy for me to believe this. Heck, my dad was getting acid-reflux meds for a heart condition. Thank god he went to a real doctor in London for a second opinion on a vacation. ..damned near saved his life.


You call them retards keep going to them and they are the retards?  Just dont go then.  You would be happy and so would they.


Absolutely. People like this made a shambles of my day regularly and affected my interactions as well as time with other more decent patients.

As for the stats, look 'em up. And then see who really "killed all these patients".  All bullshit that I have hashed over more times than I can count here. Not going to keep doing so either.  Believe what you want, go chew on some leaves or do aroma therapy or some other such bullshit.  AS ARDOC said, you'd be happier, we'd be happier.

Now as for the question, I don't have a problem with docs asking provided they don't have an agenda.  We do discuss all sorts of safety issues in the home. Part of well child check ups. At least it is supposed to be. And guns are as legitimate of a concern as swimming pools, alcohol, drugs, sex, poisons, seatbelts, car seats, etc.  All things we are supposed to discuss and more.

Now, I quit asking that one after the first time as the family got all fucking bent out of shape even though I am the furthest thing from an anti you will ever find. Just not worth it. Fact is that we discuss very sensitive issues with people all the time and some just get way bent out of shape when you try to actually discuss their problem and the remedies.  Plenty of people get pissed just in asking questions in taking a history and trying to get at the root of the problem.  As if they have any fucking clue most of the time the thought process you have to go thru in forming a differential diagnosis and whittling that down. You're mostly all fucking nuts. And stupid as hell also. So I got out of family med and did urgent care and now I have had enough of shitheads like this.   Further, it has been my experience that the best and brightest in medicine are often the most disillusioned, dislike it most and retire ASAP.  There is a reason for that.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:11:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Virgina blocks reasonable gun reforms"

Yeah, ask about guns, swimming pools, chain saws, kitchen knives, bathroom tubs, buckets, poisons ...


Heck, doctors kill TEN TIMES more people that guns do...last I heard there were over 100,000 dead per-year due to medical negligence; compare that to about 10,000 murders per year.


Here we go again.  Dude learn some statistics before spewing shit.  Everytime you use that you sound like a retard.  We have discussed that many times before.

CRC =


I have a better idea, why dont you post some evidence exonerating the medical profession from this charge and maybe, just maybe I'll change my mind. My personal experience with doctors has been that they are mostly a bunch of overpaid retards. Without exception, I've been misdiagnosed no less than six-times for the same concern. Then I'VE gone on the internet, looked up the symptoms, printed out the treatment, gone back to the doctors office and demanded they follow-it. And wouldnt you know it, I got cured.  

I've had to do this three times in my life when I've had to seek somewhat minor medical attention.  I'm not kidding each time I was misdiagnosed at least six times until I intervened. So yeah, its reaaaal easy for me to believe this. Heck, my dad was getting acid-reflux meds for a heart condition. Thank god he went to a real doctor in London for a second opinion on a vacation. ..damned near saved his life.


You call them retards keep going to them and they are the retards?  Just dont go then.  You would be happy and so would they.


So your solution to gross incompetence is to just stop going huh? Nice, glad to see you strive for excellence in life.  



Why dont you take some responsibility and use your feet to choose.  Would you take your car to someone that didnt fix it correctly?  But you would take yourself to the so called retard over and over again?  So who is the retard again?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:14:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171
(U.S. Dept.of Health & Human Services)
Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Here is the link

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:16:38 PM EDT
[#18]
All that aside, Doctors have no buisness asking about guns in the home.
Owning a gun is not  a "risk factor"

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:18:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171
(U.S. Dept.of Health & Human Services)
Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Here is the link


I have seen the link and it is bullshit. Like I said, I have hashed this out enough times here. Not again.

Delve deeper.

I can put up a bunch of bullshit on a website or print it out an mail it. That doesn't make it either true or accurate.  Do you believe everything they print in the newspaper, put on CNN, etc?

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:20:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Back to the topic....

What does having a firearm in the home have to do with medical condition?  Mechanics don't ask me if I excercise regularly when I take my car in.  Accountants don't care if I have a well balanced diet.  What good does that information for a doctor?  Is he/she going to diagnose my strep throat or herniated disk or whatever differently depending on how I answer?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:22:02 PM EDT
[#21]
It could be useful for mental health screening.

Example:

Please Check One:

_.45       _9mm

_AR-15   _AK-47

_1911     _Glock

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:22:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
All that aside, Doctors have no buisness asking about guns in the home.
Owning a gun is not  a "risk factor"


Well, that is just not true.
Though, in my case I think not owning a gun is also a risk factor.

My advice to all of you when they present these questions is just write none of your business across all of them and then we are off the hook and it gives us more time for other patients.  Hell, 50% of the kids I saw in family med where there for ADD meds anyhow.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:22:42 PM EDT
[#23]
No.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:24:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Tag, b/c I see this getting very interesting in the near future
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:26:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Could a Dr. here please tell me why they do this?  Do any Dr.'s here do this?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:26:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Back to the topic....

What does having a firearm in the home have to do with medical condition?  Mechanics don't ask me if I excercise regularly when I take my car in.  Accountants don't care if I have a well balanced diet.  What good does that information for a doctor?  Is he/she going to diagnose my strep throat or herniated disk or whatever differently depending on how I answer?


What do seatbelts, car seats, poisons in cabinets,etc have to do with it?
There is more to medicine than waiting until someone is poisoned or sick. Many causes of death can be PREVENTED.

I'll tell you what the problem is though. So many people are so fucking stupid, so irresponsible and worthless that the repsonsibility has fallen on docs to teach these retards how to parent.  A lost art by the way.  Many of the patients I see(not a cross section) are retards and haven't a clue how to parent. NOT A CLUE.  And we can be sued over incredibly sutpid shit such as this.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:27:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Could a Dr. here please tell me why they do this?  Do any Dr.'s here do this?


I already did. See above.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:27:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
All that aside, Doctors have no buisness asking about guns in the home.
Owning a gun is not  a "risk factor"


Well, that is just not true.
Though, in my case I think not owning a gun is also a risk factor.

My advice to all of you when they present these questions is just write none of your business across all of them and then we are off the hook and it gives us more time for other patients.  Hell, 50% of the kids I saw in family med where there for ADD meds anyhow.


Judging by your previous postings, you seem to know your shit, so I will defer to you on this.
What I highlighted in blue is the best course of action.

I think gunnies tend to be uncomfortable when asked about firearms because we are always wondering what their agenda is.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:33:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Back to the topic....

What does having a firearm in the home have to do with medical condition?  Mechanics don't ask me if I excercise regularly when I take my car in.  Accountants don't care if I have a well balanced diet.  What good does that information for a doctor?  Is he/she going to diagnose my strep throat or herniated disk or whatever differently depending on how I answer?


What do seatbelts, car seats, poisons in cabinets,etc have to do with it?
There is more to medicine than waiting until someone is poisoned or sick. Many causes of death can be PREVENTED.

I'll tell you what the problem is though. So many people are so fucking stupid, so irresponsible and worthless that the repsonsibility has fallen on docs to teach these retards how to parent.  A lost art by the way.  Many of the patients I see(not a cross section) are retards and haven't a clue how to parent. NOT A CLUE.  And we can be sued over incredibly sutpid shit such as this.


I still just don't see why this is something that should be asked.  There are THOUSANDS of items we come across in daily life that could be deadly.  Why single out this to ask?  Why not ask if they clean the lint from the dryer to avoid fires?  Do they keep candles around the house?  Matches?  Do you check the expiration dates on perishable goods?  Clean the chimney yearly?  Do you have any furniture with sharp corners?  

Not trying to be difficult or argumentative, just don't understand.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:36:42 PM EDT
[#30]
it's none of their fucking business.  
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:38:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Only if a gun was the reason for seeing the doctor.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:50:32 PM EDT
[#32]
The Doctor can ask it if he wants a boundary violation complaint filed with the state medical review board.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:09:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
The Doctor can ask it if he wants a boundary violation complaint filed with the state medical review board.


LMAO.  You don't actually think that would even be taken seriously do you?

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:16:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Doctor can ask it if he wants a boundary violation complaint filed with the state medical review board.


LMAO.  You don't actually think that would even be taken seriously do you?


Its a complaint, once in the system, it has to be investigated and responded to.  It will eat his time and that is money.  It will alos show up as a complaint against the doctor so it is at a minimum a bean against him/her.  I am sure their malpractice insurance provider will take note of the total number of complaints against the physician in assessing rates.  So yes, there will be a cost albiet it may be small.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:16:55 PM EDT
[#35]
The CDC is very active in gun control.  It is a health issue they say.  Our imperial federal govt. can make anything they want their biz and there is little or nothing you can do about it.  We asked for it.  We got it.  

Now sit back down on your asses and watch what happens the next 50 years!  

(and don't ask me WTF I do because I'm just like you.......fat, lazy and happy!)
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:17:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Back to the topic....

What does having a firearm in the home have to do with medical condition?  Mechanics don't ask me if I excercise regularly when I take my car in.  Accountants don't care if I have a well balanced diet.  What good does that information for a doctor?  Is he/she going to diagnose my strep throat or herniated disk or whatever differently depending on how I answer?


What do seatbelts, car seats, poisons in cabinets,etc have to do with it?
There is more to medicine than waiting until someone is poisoned or sick. Many causes of death can be PREVENTED.

I'll tell you what the problem is though. So many people are so fucking stupid, so irresponsible and worthless that the repsonsibility has fallen on docs to teach these retards how to parent.  A lost art by the way.  Many of the patients I see(not a cross section) are retards and haven't a clue how to parent. NOT A CLUE.  And we can be sued over incredibly sutpid shit such as this.


I still just don't see why this is something that should be asked.  There are THOUSANDS of items we come across in daily life that could be deadly.  Why single out this to ask?  Why not ask if they clean the lint from the dryer to avoid fires?  Do they keep candles around the house?  Matches?  Do you check the expiration dates on perishable goods?  Clean the chimney yearly?  Do you have any furniture with sharp corners?  

Not trying to be difficult or argumentative, just don't understand.


It isn't singled out. there are a number of things we ask about. Or at least are supposed to. Obviously we concentrate on the major stuff.

Now, remember that a very large number of childhood deaths and injuries are due to accidents.  In a perfect world people would act like parents instead of large kids with little ones but thanks to the direction socialists have taken this country it is what we deal with.

We do talk about tables with sharp corners.
Sometimes fire extinguishers, matches and lighters.

I understand the problem with the gun question though as these are all set up by the Amer Acad of Pediatrics, one of the most left wing segments of the medical profession. Around here though almost everyone has guns so it is less an issue. If you are on the coast it is probably a different matter. Unfortuantely though, it has become something known as the "Standard of Care" with the liability that is associated with it.  It is always someone else's fault.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:20:38 PM EDT
[#37]
Boundary Violation:
Gun Politics in the Doctor’s Office

Timothy Wheeler, MD

Appeared originally in the Medical Sentinel of the
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons,
March/April 1999, pp. 60-61
Imagine this scenario: you visit your doctor for back pain. Your doctor asks if you have firearms in your home. Then he announces that your family would be better off (especially your children) if you had no guns at all in your house. You leave the doctor’s office feeling uneasy, wondering what guns have to do with your backache. Does your doctor care about your family’s safety? Or instead, did he use your trust and his authority to advance a political agenda?

American families may soon find themselves in this scenario. Social activists are taking their war on gun ownership to a new battleground: the doctor’s office. (1) The American Medical Association (AMA) (2), American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) (3), and American College of Physicians (ACP) (4) are urging doctors to probe their patients about guns in their homes. They profess concern for patient safety. But their ulterior motive is a political prejudice against guns and gun owners. And that places their interventions into the area of unethical physician conduct called boundary violations.

Doctor-patient sex is the most well-known and sensational example of a boundary violation. More recent literature recognizes a wide variety of nonsexual violations. (5) These cover such issues as finances, confidentiality, and gratification of the doctor’s needs. Although boundary violations were first addressed in the psychiatry literature, it has become clear that they also occur in general medical practice. (6)

Boundaries in the doctor-patient relationship derive naturally from the relationship’s fiduciary nature. In general, "treatment boundaries can be defined as the set of rules that establishes the professional relationship as separate from other relationships and protects the patient from harm. A patient who seeks medical or psychiatric treatment is often in a uniquely dependent, anxious, vulnerable, and exploitable state. In seeking help, patients assume positions of relative powerlessness in which they expose their weaknesses, compromise their dignity, and reveal intimacies of body or mind, or both." (7)

Thus compromised, the patient relies heavily on the physician to act only in the patient’s interest and not the physician’s. A doctor must put the patient’s needs before his own. But a physician reverses the priorities when because of passionate political beliefs he tries to influence his patient against guns. This physician puts his own need to "do something" about the perceived evil of guns before the needs of his patient. He crosses the line from healer to political activist. Such doctor-on-patient political activism is recognized in Epstein and Simon’s Exploitation Index (8) as a boundary violation.

Just as some physician sexual transgressors may insist their sex relations with a patient are therapeutic, the activist doctor may protest that he only seeks to prevent "gun violence." However, the conduct of the medical activists strongly indicates that their interest in patients’ guns is political, not therapeutic.

The AAP, ACP, and AMA are members of the Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan (HELP) Network, based in Chicago. HELP is an exclusive advocacy group dedicated to banning guns. Physicians who disagree with HELP’s anti-gun agenda are barred from attending HELP’s conferences, a policy unthinkable in any scientific organization. HELP’s founder and leader Dr. Katherine Christoffel has compared guns to viruses that must be eradicated. (9) The group’s militant advocacy has no place for differing viewpoints on firearms, and apparently neither do the medical organizations which have signed on as HELP members.

In fact, the AAP has adopted its "gun safety instruction" patient materials from the gun-ban lobby Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI). The AAP and Handgun Control, Inc.’s informational wing the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence advise families in their STOP pamphlet, "The safest thing is to not have a gun in your home, especially not a handgun." (10) And a survey of pediatricians showed 76% supported a ban on handguns. (11) Patients who seek objective advice on firearm safety should not look to pediatricians as a group. And any doctor should know that patient counseling based on these materials is politics, not medicine.

Perhaps the most revealing aspect of organized medicine’s anti-gun bias is its persistent refusal to address the criminology literature on guns. For over twenty years, criminologists have studied firearms, their use and misuse, their risks and benefits. Especially in the last two years prominent researchers have found that firearm ownership is not the scourge that medical activists have claimed it to be. The best and latest research finds that private gun ownership by responsible citizens not only is safe, but protects the individual as well as his community from violent crime. (12)

One would think that medical firearm researchers would be intensely interested in this scholarship. But so far the editorial boards of the journals of the AAP, AMA, and ACP have neither responded to nor acknowledged it. With their silence these editors have effectively ended whatever credibility they had in firearm research. That field of study is apparently useful to them only as a vehicle for the advancement of their political goal of gun prohibition. When the scientific process yields knowledge contrary to that goal, activists either attack its author (13) or ignore it altogether. Such conduct is inexcusable in any area of scientific endeavor. Honest scientists face conflicting data objectively. And honest doctors do not use biased research to give false authority to their negative feelings about guns.

So how can a patient tell if his doctor’s advice about guns is good preventive medicine or political activism? Patients can assess a doctor’s advice by keeping the following questions in mind:

Does the doctor respect your right to keep guns? Or does he subtly send a message that guns are somehow bad? Moral judgments about the right to self defense, hunting, or other legitimate uses of guns are not acceptable subjects for a doctor talking to a patient. Does the doctor quote statistics from the American Academy of Pediatrics or the American Medical Association about the supposed risks of guns in the home? Do you see anti-gun posters or pamphlets from these organizations in her office? These materials are based on the "advocacy science" of anti-gun activists like Dr. Arthur Kellermann, much of which was funded by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Congress cut off all the CDC’s 1997 funding for gun research because of the CDC’s anti-gun bias. (14) No doctor who knows firearms would base her advice on this frankly political literature. Is the doctor familiar with the National Rifle Association’s (NRA) Eddie Eagle gun safety program for children, or other established gun safety education programs? If not, is she interested in learning about them? Unlike the AAP’s Stop program, Eddie Eagle educational materials for children contain no political or moral judgment about guns. This NRA program has been honored by the National Safety Council, the American Legion, and the governments of 19 states. The Eddie Eagle slogan "If you see a gun, Stop, Don’t touch, Leave the area, Tell an adult" was even endorsed by the generally anti-gun California Medical Association (CMA). (15) Despite intense publicity for the AAP’s Stop program and similar initiatives, most doctors shy away from scrutinizing their patients’ gun ownership. In a recent study 91% of surveyed doctors felt that firearm violence is a public health issue. But only 3% said they frequently talk to patients about firearms in the home. Two thirds of the surveyed doctors said they never talk to patients about the subject. (16) This may indicate that although they are generally concerned about firearm injuries, doctors do not see politically motivated patient counseling as appropriate professional conduct.

In a revealing section, the AAP’s Stop speaker’s kit warns would-be lecturers of "resistant audiences" who may disagree with them on scientific or ideological grounds. One section offers talking points for dealing with these "challenging individuals." (17) The kit’s authors seem to anticipate their audiences may recognize its political nature.

Patients do have remedies for the boundary-crossing doctor. In today’s competitive health care market most patients can choose from many doctors. Changing doctors is the simplest solution. A written complaint to the health plan’s membership services department can send a powerful message that boundary violations by doctors will not be tolerated. If the problem persists, patients can file a complaint with the doctor’s state licensing board. Medical licensing boards are increasingly aware of the problem of boundary violations. Although state boards have addressed primarily sexual and financial misconduct, the broad principles they have developed to guide doctors in these areas apply to the entire doctor-patient relationship. (18, 19)

The author cannot advise the reader to take a particular course of action. A patient confronted with physician misconduct must decide for himself which action, if any, to take. But patients should realize they do have choices in dealing with physician boundary violations involving political activism, especially in such personal matters as firearm ownership. And physicians should be aware of the personal risks they take when they bring political activism into the exam room.

Endnotes

  1. HELP Network News, Winter / Spring 1998, p. 1. This quarterly newsletter is published by the Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan (HELP) Network.
  2. Ibid. p. 2.
  3. American Academy of Pediatrics Policy Statement, vol. 89, no. 4, April, Part 2, 1992, pp. 788-790.
  4. American College of Physicians Position Paper, "Firearm Injury Prevention," Annals of Internal Medicine, 1998, vol. 128, no. 3, p. 238.
  5. Frick, D., "Nonsexual Boundary Violations in Psychiatric Treatment," Review of Psychiatry, vol. 13, (Washington, D.C.: American Psychiatric Press, Inc.), 1994, pp. 415-432.
  6. Hundert, E., and Appelbaum, P., "Boundaries in Psychotherapy: Model Guidelines," Psychiatry, vol. 58, November 1995, pp. 346-347.
  7. See reference 5, p. 416.
  8. See reference 5, pp. 418-419 reprinted with permission from the Bulletin of the Menninger Clinic, vol. 56, no. 2, pp. 165-166, The Menninger Foundation, 1992.
  9. Somerville, J., "Gun Control as Immunization," American Medical News, Jan. 3, 1994, p. 9.
 10. "Keep Your Family Safe From Firearm Injury," American Academy of Pediatrics and Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, 1996.
 11. Olson, L., and Christoffel, K., "Pediatricians’ Experience With and Attitudes Toward Firearms," Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, vol. 151, April 1997.
 12. Lott, J., More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press), 1998.
 13. Ibid. pp. 122-157.
 14. Report from the Committee on Appropriations, U.S. House of Representatives: Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies Appropriations Bill, 1997, p. 49.
 15. California Medical Association, Actions of the House of Delegates 1995, San Francisco 1995, Resolution 109-95, p. 9. The Eddie Eagle slogan was originally introduced in a resolution crediting its creator, the National Rifle Association (NRA). But the CMA Delegates refused to mention the NRA in the final version of Resolution 109-95, preferring instead to credit the California Department of Justice. This agency had adopted the Eddie Eagle slogan in its own gun safety program.
 16. Cassel, C.K., and Nelson, B., "Internists’ and Surgeons’ Attitudes Toward Guns and Firearm Injury Prevention," Annals of Internal Medicine, 1998; vol. 128, pp. 224-30.
 17. American Academy of Pediatrics, "Preventing Firearm Injury: Protecting Our Children Speaker’s Kit," tab 1, section 5, Elk Grove Village (Illinois), 1998.
 18. Medical Board of California Action Report, April 1996, p. 3, California Department of Consumer Affairs, Sacramento, California.
 19. Massachusetts Board of Registration in Medicine, "General Guidelines Related to the Maintenance of Boundaries in the Practice of Psychotherapy by Physicians (Adult Patients)," Boston.

~~~o~~~

Timothy Wheeler, MD is Director of Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership,
a project of The Claremont Institute.

~~~o~~~
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:21:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Doctor can ask it if he wants a boundary violation complaint filed with the state medical review board.


LMAO.  You don't actually think that would even be taken seriously do you?


Its a complaint, once in the system, it has to be investigated and responded to.  It will eat his time and that is money.


It eats no time. Not for something like that. I probably wouldn't even have to respond to that nor would I likely do so.  If I were to it would be a one or two liner into the dictaphone for my transcriptionist to type up.  I sign it, they mail it out, end of story.
Maybe you shouldn't act like everyone is an anti.

That said, if your kids doc is, or is obnoxious about it, find another.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Our first pediatrician was Dr. Francesco Beuf. He asked us if there were guns in the house and then told us they should be stored properly. I just gave him a look.

Who is Dr. Franceso Beuf?

He was JonBenet Ramsey's pediatrician.

We see somebody else now.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#40]
http://www.dsgl.org/Articles/brown-nursingmag.htm




Boundary Violations:    

The author includes numerous emotional triggers in an attempt to exploit the caring and compassionate nature of nurses.  She urges them to misuse their position of trust to push a socio-political agenda promoted by anti-gun groups.  Other organizations, including DSGL, feel this is unethical.  Injecting one's personal politics into the provider-patient relationship is a serious boundary violation.



Liability:  

Experts on liability and risk management note that health care workers rarely have any training in firearms safety, personal security, or the technical issues involved with gun locks and safe storage.  

Giving firearms advice is clearly outside our area of expertise.  We could face an indefensible malpractice suit if someone is injured following our gun storage advice or if we advise a woman to give up her handgun and she is later raped or murdered.  

If space permitted, I could include a very long list of references that would contradict every point in the article.  Instead, I offer the interested reader a list of journal-level articles on our website at:  www.dsgl.org/links.htm.  
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:26:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Our first pediatrician was Dr. Francesco Beuf. He asked us if there were guns in the house and then told us they should be stored properly. I just gave him a look.


And WTF was wrong with that?

He did what he was supposed to in the least intrusive way possible.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:27:19 PM EDT
[#42]
If a doctor ever asked me about guns in my house I would ask him about his sexual habits: whether or not he takes it in the ass from Haitian heroin addicts.

If guns can effect my health, so can a doctor with diseases.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:33:12 PM EDT
[#43]


Two years ago, I went to my normal doctor's office on my lunch break to get my allergies checked on.  I checked in, the nurse showed me to the room, and I plopped myself on the examining table.  I was wearing my normal work outfit, which is to say nice shoes, slacks, button shirt, and tie.  Since I was technically on duty (investigator for local PD), I didn't take off my other work gear, including my handcuffs, OC, portable radio, badge, and of course my Glock 22 holstered on my right hip.  I figured he was just going to look up my nose and in my ears, so no point in even loosening my tie, and I just kind of tied my jacket around my hips and left it at that.  My doctor is super cool, and knows what I do for a living, but there's no point in causing a scene.

He comes in, pokes and prods, and is chatting away about my allergy medicine when he stops.  I follow his gaze downwards, and sure enough, he's staring right at my Glock.  Oh crap, I think, here it comes, and I brace for the preaching.  Instead, he just smiles.

"Is that a 9mm or a .40cal?  I've been thinking about getting a 9mm?"

I took him shooting the next week, and he now owns a Glock 19.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:36:46 PM EDT
[#44]
You guys are assuming all docs are antis and I will admit they are out there but don't assume we all are.

Do I think it is appropriate to discuss firearms with a guy in for back pain? NO.
Do I think it is a reasonable part of the standard well child exam? You bet.
And the doc should should give guidelines and advice, leave the rest up to you.

What is the answer?
For people to be better parents. Period.
You guys have no frickin' idea the dirtbag parents we spend our days with. I was dealing with about 50-60% on Welfare/medical assistance.  They were in all the time because they couldn't handle ANYTHING on their own.  4 kids all with different last names. Moms decked out in nice clothes,  jewelery, tats, and the kids in dirty clothes, 3 days worth of food stuck to their faces, stinking of cigarette smoke, etc.  It is totally FUBAR'd and you have no idea.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:42:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
You guys are assuming all docs are antis and I will admit they are out there but don't assume we all are.

Are you a member of any of these organizations?

Social activists are taking their war on gun ownership to a new battleground: the doctor’s office. (1) The American Medical Association (AMA) (2), American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) (3), and American College of Physicians (ACP) (4) are urging doctors to probe their patients about guns in their homes. They profess concern for patient safety. But their ulterior motive is a political prejudice against guns and gun owners.

If your money is funding my enemies, I'll assume you're my enemy until you prove otherwise.

I vote with my dollars. I don't buy Levi's jeans. I don't buy Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

It's just a personal policy of mine not to buy someone the knife they're trying to stick in my back.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:47:39 PM EDT
[#46]
NO!!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:51:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Our first pediatrician was Dr. Francesco Beuf. He asked us if there were guns in the house and then told us they should be stored properly. I just gave him a look.


And WTF was wrong with that?

He did what he was supposed to in the least intrusive way possible.


Nah, not really. You had to be there. Maybe I just reacted strangely since it was the first time I ever heard that question from a doctor. This was before JonBenet was whacked. I just ddn't like him practicing outside his chosen field.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:52:47 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You guys are assuming all docs are antis and I will admit they are out there but don't assume we all are.

Are you a member of any of these organizations?

Social activists are taking their war on gun ownership to a new battleground: the doctor’s office. (1) The American Medical Association (AMA) (2), American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) (3), and American College of Physicians (ACP) (4) are urging doctors to probe their patients about guns in their homes. They profess concern for patient safety. But their ulterior motive is a political prejudice against guns and gun owners.

If your money is funding my enemies, I'll assume you're my enemy until you prove otherwise.

I vote with my dollars. I don't buy Levi's jeans. I don't buy Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

It's just a personal policy of mine not to buy someone the knife they're trying to stick in my back.


Yeah, I belonged to the AMA.  Even though I can't stand that fucking organization and refused membership, the clinics i worked in paid my dues regardless.

And I don't have to prove shit to anyone. I don't even practice anymore because I got sick of spending all my days in little windowless rooms with pathetic, ignorant, obnoxious, drug seeking losers and skanks.  Seems like every year there were more of the dregs and less nice people who actually had something wrong with them.

I am only trying to explain to you people the way it is. If it makes you feel better to take it out on the messenger, one of the strongest advocates for the 2nd Amendment you could ever meet, then so be it. Don't care even a small bit whether you see anyone at all much less me. Personally, I would rather you just all saw no one at this point, quit whining for pills you don't fucking need all the fucking time, acted like responsible parents, took better care of yourselves and got on with your GD lives. How's that?

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:56:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Personally, I would rather you just all saw no one at this point, quit whining for pills you don't fucking need all the fucking time, acted like responsible parents, took better care of yourselves and got on with your GD lives. How's that?

Hey, we all have our personal prejudices. I'm not here defending welfare cheating drug users, but you're defending intrusive activist assholes.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:00:23 PM EDT
[#50]
Well,

I know for a fact that the doctor who mis-medicated my mother and cause her PE 3 days after her surgery, and she died as a result - has killed more people than the P220 that I have on my hip right now.

BTW, I do not visit doctors unless I fail to have a heartbeat or lil' Al is in extreme peril. Then I'd need to actually think about whether I really want to go or not. Much rather fix it myself. Haven't visited a docter since 1991. Haven't missed it.

No, doctors have no business what my firearms are or if I have any, unless he wants to go shooting with me. Then I'd be happy to teach him.

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