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Posted: 10/24/2004 7:07:31 AM EST
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57435-2004Oct23.html

Sorry if it's a dupe!

Throwaway registration id:

ihatespam@mailinator.com

Password:joey
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:24:48 AM EST
I have no need to hit the link.

NO
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:25:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
I have no need to hit the link.

NO



+1
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:37:11 AM EST
No
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:40:37 AM EST
Can someone demiliatary this topic down to a civilian level for us nobodies?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:42:33 AM EST
If they see combat, give them a CIB or CIB equivelant. The infantry no longer has a monopoly on combat action . . . . .
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:43:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:
If they see combat, give them a CIB or CIB equivelant. The infantry no longer has a monopoly on combat action . . . . .



When did they EVER?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:49:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
I have no need to hit the link.

NO



No disrespect, but it's worth reading. Did you know that, since WWII, infantrymen (just MOS 11, not including Marines) have been 80% of all KIA's?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:59:29 AM EST
Army Badge Of Honor Now In Contention
Award Denied to GIs Retrained for Infantry



Army Capt. Steve Gventer, normally a tank company commander, was hit by a grenade in Iraq after being retrained as an infantry officer. Under current rules, he is ineligible for the prestigious Combat Infantryman Badge. (Steve Fainaru -- The Washington Post)


By Steve Fainaru
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 24, 2004; Page A01

BAGHDAD -- Capt. Steve Gventer is still picking shrapnel out of his right shoulder. It became lodged there last month when a rocket-propelled grenade sailed over his head and exploded against a wall, splattering him with hot metal.

That attack came two weeks after an insurgent in Sadr City, the Baghdad slum, shot Gventer through his left calf with a machine gun.

Gventer's street fighting would appear to qualify him for one of the U.S. Army's most prestigious awards, the Combat Infantryman Badge. The award recognizes soldiers whose daily mission is to pursue the enemy, primarily on foot, and engage in close combat.

But Gventer won't get the award -- at least not under current rules. Normally a tank company commander, Gventer was retrained as an infantry officer before he was deployed. He and his men have fought furious street battles in one of Iraq's most perilous corners. But because they are technically tankers, they are ineligible for an award that for six decades has distinguished those who fight at ground level, where war is most lethal.

The Army retrained thousands of soldiers -- tankers, engineers, artillerymen -- to perform as infantry in Iraq's urban hot spots. But part of the fallout is an intense internal debate over who qualifies for the Combat Infantryman Badge, or CIB, and, more broadly, what constitutes an infantryman in a rapidly changing Army.

The award is "a divisive tool now," said Capt. Chuck Slagle, an infantry company commander who favors expanding the award's recipients to include non-infantry units. He and Gventer "do exactly the same thing," he said. "But because of this, we're separated."

The commander of the 1st Cavalry Division, Maj. Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, recently petitioned the Army for an "exception of policy" to allow non-infantry units to receive badges, according to division officers. The decision will be made by the Army's chief of staff, Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, who "because of the changing nature of combat" has directed the Army staff to form a task force on the issue, according to Lt. Col. Michael J. Negard, his spokesman.

A spokesman for the 1st Cavalry, Maj. Philip J. Smith, neither confirmed nor denied that Chiarelli had made such a request. "It is our policy not to discuss pending policy decisions that will be made at levels above the division," he wrote in an e-mail.

But Schoomaker will be facing entrenched resistance to anything that appears to diminish the coveted award.

"I think they should get something, but not a CIB," said Sgt. Aaron Josey of the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment. "I'm an infantryman. They're not."

The debate revolves around a swatch of fabric that features a rifle and a wreath and is normally sewn above the soldier's breast pocket. The award was created on Oct. 27, 1943, in recognition that the infantry "continuously operated under the worst conditions" and sustained "the most casualties while receiving the least public recognition."

From World War II through Vietnam, four out of five combat deaths were sustained by infantrymen, according to retired Army Maj. Gen. Robert H. Scales Jr., a historian. "Not soldiers and Marines, but infantrymen," Scales wrote in an e-mail. "That's 5 percent of the [U.S. military] manpower suffering 81 percent of those" killed in action.

The badge is recognition for engaging in and surviving intimate violence. The award's requirements state that the recipient "must be personally present and under hostile fire . . . in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy."

"There isn't anything that equals the Combat Infantryman's Badge," said retired Army Col. John M. Collins, a military historian. "That is the prize on top of the prize. It says, 'I did it. I was there and I came back.' " Only soldiers whose formal "occupational specialty" is infantry are eligible for the award "regardless of the circumstances," the requirements state.

But perhaps never has that distinction been less clear than in Iraq.

As the military prepared for Operation Iraqi Freedom II -- the phase of the war that followed the defeat of former president Saddam Hussein -- army planners recognized that heavy armor would be less effective in areas such as Baghdad, where it was hoped that soldiers would spend most of their time rebuilding infrastructure and, if necessary, quelling resistance in the capital's narrow streets.

Both tasks required vast numbers of infantry, soldiers who primarily travel in five-man Humvees, then dismount, whether to rebuild sewers or fight insurgents.

Entire companies were ordered to trade in their tanks for Humvees and undergo months of retraining in urban warfare.

The transition was especially dramatic for the 1st Cavalry Division, which has operational responsibility over Baghdad. The real and fictional exploits of the 20,000-man division, which is based in Fort Hood, Tex., have been chronicled in movies from "Apocalypse Now" to "We Were Soldiers." Its very insignia features the black silhouette of a horse, representing the 1st Cavalry's historical evolution from horseback to heavy armor.

The commander of the division's 1st Brigade, Col. Robert. B. Abrams, is a former tank company commander. The M1 Abrams main battle tank is named after his late father, Gen. Creighton W. Abrams Jr., a renowned World War II tank commander who later served as overall military commander in Vietnam.

In an interview, Abrams said that for many soldiers, the badge has become "an emotional subject, but for me it's not very important right now. Perhaps after I've redeployed back to the United States it will become an emotional subject, but from my perspective and my expectation of my leaders, what we should really focus all of our intellectual and emotional energy on is accomplishing our mission and taking care of our soldiers and protecting the force.

"We can worry about badges and everything else later," said Abrams. "That doesn't mean it's not important, but in the Abrams version of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it ain't there yet."

Current and retired soldiers on both sides of the issue emphasized the badge's symbolic importance. They offered widely different opinions on what they agreed was a highly charged issue.

Command Sgt. Maj. Stanley Small, of Huntsville, Ala., of the 1st Cavalry's 1st Brigade, said that expanding the award's recipients to include non-infantry units would be nearly impossible, given the range of soldiers who have been reassigned to combat roles in Iraq. He said it would inevitably dilute the award.

"I've got cooks out there -- not many, but some," he said. "I've got mechanics out there -- not many but some. . . . No matter how hard they try, they'll never be able to get the parameters right."

But Collins, the historian, said the Army runs a risk if soldiers essentially doing equal work are not rewarded equally.

"If they are going to be part of an infantry organization, then everybody in that organization is exposed to precisely the same risk," he said. "And to say that some of them are second-class citizens, I just think it would be a big mistake. It would encourage morale problems."

Gventer, a Baylor University graduate, said he did not want to be seen as emphasizing awards over mission, but he described the award as "huge." Both his father, a platoon leader in Vietnam, and his older brother, who fought in the Persian Gulf War, received badges.

But perhaps never has that distinction been less clear than in Iraq.

As the military prepared for Operation Iraqi Freedom II -- the phase of the war that followed the defeat of former president Saddam Hussein -- army planners recognized that heavy armor would be less effective in areas such as Baghdad, where it was hoped that soldiers would spend most of their time rebuilding infrastructure and, if necessary, quelling resistance in the capital's narrow streets.

Both tasks required vast numbers of infantry, soldiers who primarily travel in five-man Humvees, then dismount, whether to rebuild sewers or fight insurgents.

Entire companies were ordered to trade in their tanks for Humvees and undergo months of retraining in urban warfare.

The transition was especially dramatic for the 1st Cavalry Division, which has operational responsibility over Baghdad. The real and fictional exploits of the 20,000-man division, which is based in Fort Hood, Tex., have been chronicled in movies from "Apocalypse Now" to "We Were Soldiers." Its very insignia features the black silhouette of a horse, representing the 1st Cavalry's historical evolution from horseback to heavy armor.

The commander of the division's 1st Brigade, Col. Robert. B. Abrams, is a former tank company commander. The M1 Abrams main battle tank is named after his late father, Gen. Creighton W. Abrams Jr., a renowned World War II tank commander who later served as overall military commander in Vietnam.

In an interview, Abrams said that for many soldiers, the badge has become "an emotional subject, but for me it's not very important right now. Perhaps after I've redeployed back to the United States it will become an emotional subject, but from my perspective and my expectation of my leaders, what we should really focus all of our intellectual and emotional energy on is accomplishing our mission and taking care of our soldiers and protecting the force.

"We can worry about badges and everything else later," said Abrams. "That doesn't mean it's not important, but in the Abrams version of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it ain't there yet."

Current and retired soldiers on both sides of the issue emphasized the badge's symbolic importance. They offered widely different opinions on what they agreed was a highly charged issue.

Command Sgt. Maj. Stanley Small, of Huntsville, Ala., of the 1st Cavalry's 1st Brigade, said that expanding the award's recipients to include non-infantry units would be nearly impossible, given the range of soldiers who have been reassigned to combat roles in Iraq. He said it would inevitably dilute the award.

"I've got cooks out there -- not many, but some," he said. "I've got mechanics out there -- not many but some. . . . No matter how hard they try, they'll never be able to get the parameters right."

But Collins, the historian, said the Army runs a risk if soldiers essentially doing equal work are not rewarded equally.

"If they are going to be part of an infantry organization, then everybody in that organization is exposed to precisely the same risk," he said. "And to say that some of them are second-class citizens, I just think it would be a big mistake. It would encourage morale problems."

Gventer, a Baylor University graduate, said he did not want to be seen as emphasizing awards over mission, but he described the award as "huge." Both his father, a platoon leader in Vietnam, and his older brother, who fought in the Persian Gulf War, received badges.
But perhaps never has that distinction been less clear than in Iraq.

Last year, two of three tank companies from the 1st Cavalry Division's 2nd Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment were reassigned to infantry roles; Gventer's Company C -- Cobra Company -- was one. The transition was dramatic. Gventer's men traded in 70-ton M1 Abrams tanks, which fire 120mm cannon shells with accuracy up to four miles, for the Humvees, much smaller vehicles that essentially transport troops into ground combat.

The Army now calls the soldiers "dragoons" to differentiate them from infantry, but they perform exactly the same tasks. In Sadr City for the past several months, that task has entailed patrolling the insurgent-held slum in platoon-size convoys, then dismounting to fight insurgents loyal to Moqtada Sadr, the rebellious Shiite Muslim cleric, or conduct raids to find them.

"It's much easier to have bad things happen when you dismount," said Gventer.

The first time he was wounded, Gventer was standing near a chain-link fence when he was shot. In the second incident, he and eight other men had descended from a roof during a blackout. The lights suddenly went back on, at which point an insurgent spotted the group and fired the grenade.

Seven of the nine men were wounded when the grenade exploded against the wall, including battalion commander Lt. Col. Florentino "Lopez" Carter, who was struck in the heel by shrapnel. None is currently eligible for the badge.

Neither is Sgt. Ben Brown, 27, from Tomball, Tex., another converted tanker from the 8th Cavalry Regiment.

On Aug. 6, Brown found himself and his Humvee isolated in Sadr City. For an hour, he managed to hold his ground until the crew found a way out. At one point, Brown traded blind fire with an insurgent who stood on the other side of a wall. Brown chased him away or shot him -- he isn't sure -- by grabbing a shotgun, pointing it over the wall and firing.

During the same battle, Brown pursued a mortar team into a dark field and silenced it with machine gun fire. When he finally ran out of ammunition, he grabbed spare machine-gun rounds from the Humvee's gunner.

His company commander, Capt. John Morning, later nominated Brown for the Silver Star for gallantry in combat "for continually exposing himself to enemy fire."

Morning said he regrets that not only Brown but the entire company is ineligible for the badge. "In my opinion, my soldiers have earned it as much as anyone else in the theater," he said. "A lot of guys aren't going to admit it, but it would mean a lot to them. It shows that they fought as infantrymen, on the ground."

Brown himself is philosophical, but he said the criteria make little sense. "The excuses they're using aren't really legitimate excuses," he said. "This is my second deployment and I haven't been in a tank yet."
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:02:48 AM EST
They may have a point. What they are saying is that an Armor Unit, that has been re-organized and retrained to be Infantry, and is fighting as an Infantry unit, should be considered an Infantry unit for the purpose of awarding the CIB. Would you be satisfied if they awarded all of these folks an SMOS of 11B at the conclusion of re-training, and their MTOE was temporarily modified to show that the unit was provisional Infantry BN, with soldiers serving in their SMOS instead of their primary?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:06:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By crurifragium:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
I have no need to hit the link.

NO



No disrespect, but it's worth reading. Did you know that, since WWII, infantrymen (just MOS 11, not including Marines) have been 80% of all KIA's?




I have devoted my entire adult life to the study and participation in the profession of arms. There is nothing some reporter can write in some article based on half-ass research and a few interviews that will effect ANYTHING I already know or believe.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:09:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By natez:
They may have a point. What they are saying is that an Armor Unit, that has been re-organized and retrained to be Infantry, and is fighting as an Infantry unit, should be considered an Infantry unit for the purpose of awarding the CIB. Would you be satisfied if they awarded all of these folks an SMOS of 11B at the conclusion of re-training, and their MTOE was temporarily modified to show that the unit was provisional Infantry BN, with soldiers serving in their SMOS instead of their primary?



Nope.

They can re-enlist 11B if it means that much to them.

Tankers have had to dismount before - even back in WWII when the CIB was created.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:36:12 AM EST
In today's army... things are different.

I'm a tanker. I'm doing patrols as an infantryman half the time, out of a semi-armoured HMMWV, carrying a rifle. I don't want a CIB. I do want a CAB which is its own long-running issue.

Two of the companies in the battalion are classed as 'Motor Infantry (Provisional)'. Heck, they even call them infantry in the name. They're fighting to get the training they received in Ft Lewis ratified as 11B qualification so that they can get the same award as the chaps in the next company over doing exactly the same job with exactly the same equipment.

Originally CIB was introduced as a prestigious award to entice people to join the Infantry. This may or may not still be the case, but the Army's current policy is to eliminate distinction between the branches. This is why the new ACUs don't have branch insignia on them. (Much to our chagrin. I'm going to keep weaing BDUs with my M26 and sabers on it until the last possible day). The continuation of a CIB or a CMB is contrary to this new policy.

I think the correct decision is either to give the CIB to all soldiers who are tasked as infantry, regardless of MOS, or to award the suitable branch badge to applicable soldiers. This still distinguishes between those who were shot at and those who worked in the PX in Doha. (All would get the combat patch). I believe the Marines do the former, with the Combat Action Ribbon.

I was given my CAB this week. Of course, not being an official award, I'm not allowed to wear it, but it's going on my CVC/flight bag.

NTM
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:04:52 AM EST
No, you want a CIB... Join the fucking Infantry.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:09:36 AM EST
I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:13:04 AM EST


From the the article:

In an interview, Abrams said that for many soldiers, the badge has become "an emotional subject, but for me it's not very important right now. Perhaps after I've redeployed back to the United States it will become an emotional subject, but from my perspective and my expectation of my leaders, what we should really focus all of our intellectual and emotional energy on is accomplishing our mission and taking care of our soldiers and protecting the force.

"We can worry about badges and everything else later," said Abrams. "That doesn't mean it's not important, but in the Abrams version of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it ain't there yet."



Truer words were never spoken. This is incredibly silly shit to be discussing at this point. The Washington Post is sticking to the liberal game plan; doing its level best to sow dissention in the ranks and demoralize soldiers' families back home.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:13:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.



... and then go back and stay 11B, including cold nights in the field and humping a ruck, while the tankers keep theri engines running and eat hot food and sleep in warm beds.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:31:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.



... and then go back and stay 11B, including cold nights in the field and humping a ruck, while the tankers keep theri engines running and eat hot food and sleep in warm beds.



Do the guys who got retrained as MP's have to stay pricks the rest of thier career?

Just kidding, I know some cool MP's.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:37:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:
If they see combat, give them a CIB or CIB equivelant. The infantry no longer has a monopoly on combat action . . . . .

The point is, the "Infantry" does indeed have a monopoly on "Combat INFANTRY...".

Let them come of with the "Combat Quartemaster Badge", or the "Combat Tanker Badge".
It seems like common sense.
Hell. I'm just a dumb Marine, and I figured it out.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:44:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:50:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 9:51:02 AM EST by Cincinnatus]
...only if they have Infantry as an additional, secondary MOS, OR they are serving in aT/O Infantry Billet.
"Acting as though" you are Infantry is not enough.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:50:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 10:29:30 AM EST by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i would also vote no. Most ARMY MOS's have a badge for combat. ie.... Combat Medical Badge etc.


mike



Actually most don't, only the Infantry and Medics do.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:30:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.



... and then go back and stay 11B, including cold nights in the field and humping a ruck, while the tankers keep theri engines running and eat hot food and sleep in warm beds.



I think we are coming from two dofferent perspectives on getting the MOS if they do the training.

In the USAR/ARNG it is not uncommon for soldiers to swap back and forth, say from 21E to 21B in order to get promoted because there is no E5 slot for 21E, but then switch back to thier original MOS if an E-6 slot opens up in it.

I did that 62B-63B, went to the school, but then went back into a 62B slot when the E-6 slot opened. I have had guys do that from 21B-92A and back even.

If a slot opens we quite often put someone in it then send them to school to get the MOS, but that doesn't mean they get stuck doing it the whole time.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:32:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:39:28 PM EST
It's a coveted and cherished award that should stand alone and above all others.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:44:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:56:32 PM EST
I say no. The Army has badges/patches/cords/colored hats for all kinds of different things. Cooks wear berets for Christ's sake. The PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry - British WW2 phrase, but very appropriate) should have something to set it apart. If you want a CIB, join the infantry permanently. It should be awarded to infantrymen ONLY IMHO.
On a side note, I rate a CAR from my service in GW1. I always admired the Army's CIB and wish the Marines had something like it rather than just another ribbon. Don't dilute the CIB. Infantry only.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:44:25 PM EST
If they are conducting infantry operations against an armed enemy, they're infantry. In the Army, everyone is a rifleman.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:57:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.


... and then go back and stay 11B, including cold nights in the field and humping a ruck, while the tankers keep theri engines running and eat hot food and sleep in warm beds.


Don't know who you ran into armor-wise, but the only time we were allowed to run our engines during
downtime was to bring the batteries back up to charge, since we were running two radios, then we had
to shut them back down.
"Hot food"? Yeah, we could heat up an MRE by putting the packet into the engine exhaust vent for
a short while, but then, after I ended up in the Guard, and humping a ruck in a LI unit since the
MDANG didn't have any armor slots, I ended up using heat tabs to do the same.
"Warm beds"? I was Army, not Air Force. If we were out in the field, I ended up usually sleeping under
the tank, or on the engine deck. Never slept in a bunk out in the field except at Graf where we had
the range barracks.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:58:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 3:00:36 PM EST by FiveO]
Perhaps not the CIB (although those qualified as and acting as...?) but I do think soldiers who have "seen the elephant" should have some sort of device recognizing this. I know when I meet a soldier wearing the CIB I am meeting a man who has walked the walk.

Other combat MOSs types who have been in the middle of it deserve similar recognition and respect as well, IM(nonmilitary)O.

WHY WOULD ANYONE OBJECT TO SOME OTHER AWARD WITH THE SAME MEANING FOR THEM? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:00:32 PM EST
doublefuck shizzle NO!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:01:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tanker06:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.


... and then go back and stay 11B, including cold nights in the field and humping a ruck, while the tankers keep theri engines running and eat hot food and sleep in warm beds.


Don't know who you ran into armor-wise, but the only time we were allowed to run our engines during
downtime was to bring the batteries back up to charge, since we were running two radios, then we had
to shut them back down.
"Hot food"? Yeah, we could heat up an MRE by putting the packet into the engine exhaust vent for
a short while, but then, after I ended up in the Guard, and humping a ruck in a LI unit since the
MDANG didn't have any armor slots, I ended up using heat tabs to do the same.
"Warm beds"? I was Army, not Air Force. If we were out in the field, I ended up usually sleeping under
the tank, or on the engine deck. Never slept in a bunk out in the field except at Graf where we had
the range barracks.



I was speaking relaitve to the infantry, not a 5-star hotel.

Infantrymen do not have a jet engine they can fire up at the coldest time of night to thaw their toes.

Everything is relative.

I agree that maybe the Army needs an equiavalent to the Navy/ Marine Corps CAR. The fact remains, that people join the infantry for bragging rights and out of tradition. It is historically - and will continue to be - the most thankless, difficult, casualty suffering job in the Army. If a little piece of cloth lets them feel better about themselves and their fellow infantrymen - let 'em keep it as their own.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:02:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Perhaps not the CIB (although those qualified as and acting as...?) but I do think soldiers who have "seen the elephant" should have some sort of device recognizing this. I know when I meet a soldier wearing the CIB I am meeting a man who has walked the walk.

Other combat MOSs types who have been in the middle of it deserve similar recognition and respect as well, IM(nonmilitary)O.

WHY WOULD ANYONE OBJECT TO SOME OTHER AWARD WITH THE SAME MEANING FOR THEM? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.



The other MOS's already have a way of being recognized for combat service. They wear a shoulder patch on the right sleeve of their uniform.

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:43:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
In the Army, everyone is a rifleman.



Are you tripping?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:48:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 8:50:42 PM EST by Rabid_Coyote]
Visualize a scenario.....


An infantry platoon is patrolling in (nameless third world shithole) when they come under a torrent of enemy fire. Unable to assault out of the kill zone the survivors take shelter behind streetside rubble and attempt to return fire, but ineffectively. The platoon FO, who has been attached to infantry platoons and companies his entire career, struggles to his RATELO and calls for a fire mission, all the while under heavy fire.

Three miles away, safely within the confines of a secure basecamp, a mortar section recieves the fire mission. A mortar FDC chief in a safe tent, sips his coffee and mathematically calculates a firing solution and sends it to the tubes. The mortar section fires the mission.

The 120mm HE rounds land near the target, and the FO brackets them onto target, fires for effect and saves the day, the enemy fire is suppressed.

The mortar FDC, who calculated a mathematical solution while enjoying his Java in a secure base away from enemy fire, protected by an MP Company, just earned a CIB. His MOS is 11C.

The FO, who is a member of a leg infantry platoon, and the hero of our story, doesn't get shit. His MOS is 13F.

The 13F does get a combat patch though. Same combat patch that the Brigade mail clerk got at his desk 125 klicks in the rear. Mean while, the mail clerks platoon sergeant, who is a marginal SFC that was farmed out to keep him from fucking up important missions, he most likely gets a CIB too, (and a combat patch) even though he never heard a shot fired. His MOS is 11B.

This is bullshit.

Either redefine 'infantry' to more accurately define who is really a grunt and who ain't, or add Combat XXX Badges for all the combat arms.

By the way, this is not meant to imply that mortar troops are pogues, they are not, it's just a very possible scenario to illustrate a point.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:04:51 PM EST
I was under the impression that infantry got the CIB, hence the clever name.

And everybody else got to wear the patch of the unit they were in combat with on one shoulder now matter where they went? Doesn't that say "I'm not infantry, but got shot at"?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:08:44 PM EST

If this tanker gets it, how much ya wanna bet Kerry puts in for it too?

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:13:02 PM EST
I would submit that cav scouts (19Ds) who as near as I can tell going from our scout platoon do not qualify for CIBs but also sleep in the dirt with no turbine engines to keep them warm, running missions out of HMMWVs and basically are running as infantry might be a better comparison than tankers.

Ultimately the only difference between a cav scout and an infantryman is that an infantryman's job is to take and hold ground, whilst it's only an ancillary role for cav (though it's one that they can be given).

NTM
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:22:28 PM EST
If they do the job, the deserve the badge that says they did it. Who cares what their original MOS is.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:23:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheAvatar9265ft:
If they do the job, the deserve the badge that says they did it. Who cares what their original MOS is.



They already recieve recognition. What more does one want?

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:42:57 PM EST
There's another MOS that can be awarded the CIB. It's a 1542.

Yes, there should be some type of award for all military who have been in combat.

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:01:00 PM EST
I think 1542 is an obsolete MOS for Infantry Unit Commander.

Still infantry.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:05:40 PM EST


Link Posted: 10/25/2004 2:47:47 AM EST
Why don't they just make a catch-all "combat SOLDIER badge" and put the whole silly mess to rest?
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 4:09:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By redmenace:
Why don't they just make a catch-all "combat SOLDIER badge" and put the whole silly mess to rest?



Because it would be a slap in the face to the infantry, and we already have combat patches.

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:29:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 7:31:12 AM EST by RAMBOSKY]

Originally posted by Rabid_Coyote: "I think 1542 is an obsolete MOS for Infantry Unit Commander."


My old MOS in now obsolete! Guess I am also...........


Adam_White,
I've been reading your posts and I salute you sir!

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