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Posted: 1/23/2004 7:49:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/24/2004 6:32:20 PM EST by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 7:55:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2004 7:59:38 AM EST by Dredd308]
And they are built like a swiss watch. I picked up my PSP last year for $760.00 Used but it looks like the only time it was fired was at the factory. It came in the box with the test target, both mags, gas tube cleaner, all the paper work, and even the green foam. [img]http://www.funtigo.com/go/i1416543?i=i1416543_4053.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 7:56:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2004 7:58:07 AM EST by Balzac72]
I personally do not like them. They don't hold many rounds, they require a firm solid grip, which might change POI and generally, i'm not sold on the idea. What happens if you cannot get a firm grip in a gun fight? What happens if you are injured in a gunfight and need to switch to your weak hand? Think you can aim while squeezing? Nice novelty, bad idea. Edit: Lets not even talk about the mag release. I'd rate this as a modern Luger - interesting, but not practical for the times.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:03:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2004 8:06:45 AM EST by warlord]
I shot a P7/M10 in 10mm auto, it was a pretty easy gun to shot. My friend paid something like $750 new when it was available. It has a funny manual of arms that is atypical of any other gun autopistol. For an extremely short period of time there was a 380ACP/32ACP/22LR version & conversions kits, and from what I understand they are rarer than hen's teeth. My personal feeling is that it is a good gun, but for $1,400? For me personally it could be better spent somewhere else. But then again if you want it for investment, probably a good idea because I think HK is not going bother importing them because sales has been not all that high. From what I heard, the New Jersey Highway patrol wanted to refurb their old P7s, but since the P7M13 were out of production, the price was pretty high, and another pistol was selected to replace it, I think they went with the HK USP. I don't what the price of P7M8 magazines are, but I know mags for the P7M13 is really high even before Clinton's AWB, but it is a quality magazine.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:06:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:08:52 AM EST
Warlord, a P7M10 is a .40 cal Not 10mm
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:11:21 AM EST
Steyr, when was your PSP built? Mine was made in 1983, your mag release sits flush, where as mine sticks out a bit. I've never noticed that difference before.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:12:44 AM EST
I had a P7M8 and sold it when I was broke a few years ago...Nice, but not the greatest thing since sliced bread (that's why it went and not the Les Baer). The gas system is dirty and needs a special scraper to get the crap out of it so no cheapie ammo...and it gets real hot too. Anyway-IMO, A nice toy, not a great toy.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:15:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:45:48 AM EST
I wish they would make them out of stainless steel and in the U.S.A. like Walther did with the PPK down south.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:49:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 8:54:52 AM EST
Also the factory trigger in the HK is better then alot of "tuned" 1911 triggers.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:01:52 AM EST
I want a P7M8, but I'd have to handle one again. It's been a long time, so I may not like the grip. I want the M8 because I don't really like the heel mag release. I have a Sig P232, and I just can't seem to get used to it. I also don't like not being able to drop the empty with one hand while drawing a fresh mag. Just MHO. Thanks for the reminder Steyr...I had put this gun way at the back of my head.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:07:16 AM EST
also the "purple" p7's with a grind mark on the slides are x-NJ trooper guns - thats what i've herd can any body confirm, I can't wait to get one.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:11:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dredd308: Warlord, a P7M10 is a .40 cal Not 10mm
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Oops you're right. I haven't shot it in awhile. Also forgot mention, the P7 at least in 9mm Para & 40S&W has the fluted chamber like their HK91/93 series, so when you see a spent case with lenght-wise black lines in it came from a P7. The 9mm Para also has cold-forged polygonal barrel. I think the P7M40 has a barrel with conventional rifling. The whole thing is a 100% steel, not a piece of plastic.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:12:35 AM EST
If H&K would make one with an extended and threaded barrel (for a suppressor) I would buy one in an instant!
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:22:30 AM EST
Had a P7M8 several years ago, bought it before the price went ballistic. Liked the gun, it shot better than I did (faint praise). I found the operation to be simplicity itself, I never understood why so many people thought it was wierd. Got rid of it evenutually. Never could find a decent holster for it. Mags were hideously expensive and just about impossible to find in these parts. Couldn't or shouldn't shoot plain lead bullets through it. Have never understood why the things got so damned expensive. Its a quality well built piece of machinery, no doubt, but there just isn't that much to it. If I'm not mistaken the frame is a stamped assembly, the slide may well start out as a stamping ala SIG. Plastic grips. Basic sights. All that for $1400?!?!?!? I just don't get it. Wouldn't mind having another one someday but the price is going to have to come waaaayyyy down.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:23:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By pazzo: If H&K would make one with an extended and threaded barrel (for a suppressor) I would buy one in an instant!
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Like this? [img]http://www.hkpro.com/p7m8sd.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:23:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By pazzo: If H&K would make one with an extended and threaded barrel (for a suppressor) I would buy one in an instant!
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the factory barrels are out there, but they are a little pricey. Last I heard Mark at ARS will press the old barrel out and put the new one if once you find one.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:28:00 AM EST
I remember seeing a bike cop at Ellis Island carrying one of those. I asked her if it was a walther, she said it was a P7M8, then went on to describe the differences between the walther and the P7 [:)]. Too bad she wasn't one of those hot female cops I always hear about. Anyway, it's definitely on my short list, very lefty friendly, and a perfect CCW.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:33:05 AM EST
They are super accurate. Many police forces and SWAT types in Europe still use them frequently because of the safety factor--to render the gun completely safe you just relax your grip a bit, this comes in awfully handy when storming an aircraft or a bus, I'm told. They really aren't that much fun at the range, the gas port area forward of the trigger gets really hot really fast and takes awhile to cool back off, so you can't dump 100 rounds through it in a single range session like you can with a Beretta or a USP. Mine was a P7M8 and had a factory heat shield on it and it still got too hot to shoot after only a few magazines. Also, in terms of the real world, if I was going into harm's way with a pistol I think I'd want more firepower than 8 rounds of 9mm, although the P7M8's mag release is located in the correct place at least. Here are a couple of vids of P7s in action. Right click, save as... you know the drill. [url]http://sigsauer.wiretapped.net/hkpro/P7M10.MOV[/url] [url]http://sigsauer.wiretapped.net/hkpro/P7M13.MOV[/url]
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:33:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2004 10:09:53 AM EST by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:38:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:45:58 AM EST
NJ troopers carry/carried P7M8s not 13s.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:52:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Ever held one? I can engage the squeeze cocker with a single finger. And like a compound bow, once engaged can be held with even less pressure. Even with the suggested 'complicated contraption' I can easily outshoot all my other handguns.
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Steyr; Ignore Balzac, he doesn't know WTF he's talking about. He tends to limp wrist and can't get the required 3# of grip pressure to keep the P7 cocked.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 9:59:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2004 10:02:21 AM EST by srv656s]
[b]Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:[/b] The P9 is about as expensive and the VP70 brings in as much as $2,000.
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Really? I can get my hands on a VP70 for well less than $2,000... Like $300... should I buy it? Shawn
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:12:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:20:50 AM EST
I have quite a bit of experience with the P7's - I fell in love with the engineering and sleek lines (not to mention the ergonomics and quick reloads) after playing with them for a while. I now have 1 M8, 2 M13's, 2 M10's, and a K3 in .22lr and .380 that I have had a threaded barrel made for (in .22) for one of my suppressors as seen here. [img]http://tsd.edu/drno/guns/p7k3.suppressed.sm.1.jpg[/img] I use the M13's for competition shoots (idpa/ipsc) as they are super quick to cycle and very accurate. The M10 I have been carrying as my primary weapon for 4 years. They are super reliable - I can count on one hand the number of malfunctions i've had with all the major-caliber ones in the last few years, those most of the time having to do with me not cleaning the gas piston port often enough. Usually a scrape or two with the piston cleaner and you're back in business, and the gun feels like greased butter again. They are solid pieces - I would not be afraid to hammer in a nail or use them to pistol whip someone. I enjoy using them in CQB scenerios and team-movement scenerious because of the ease of engaging the safety. I have been complimented over and over on my lightning fast reloads with the P7's - there's no need to change your grip, and you can stay right on target while you do so. The double-stack to single-stack magazines on the M10/M13 also facilitate ease of hitting the magwell. Overall, I think they are perfectly suited for carry and entry type situations. Weather *will* effect them because they are all steel - for outdoor duty, I would pick a USP or some other sort of polymer weapon. My .02$. Doc
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:20:53 AM EST
Others covered extremely accurate, great trigger pull, outrageous price. I recently "tested" one and it is the cat's ass if you have smallish hands. It literally oozes quality, and this one had been kicked around (a "forfeiture" from an Al-Qaeda thug), so the finish holds up to physical abuse. If not for the price, I'd have had one years ago. On same tour, I also received my first opportunity to handle a Krinkov and Galil in similar configuration. Balance is outstanding, and tempts me to go through the Class Three hassle, despite their being a novelty.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:36:26 AM EST
My local gunshop has NIB P7M8s for a mere $1,110. I bought mine used, one of the German trade-ins, I guess, for around $650 or so. A more accurate gun I cannot imagine, unbelievable.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:39:35 AM EST
I love your reviews SteyrAUG please keep them coming
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:42:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2004 10:42:46 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
I guess I should be specific about the accuracy. I bought mine after watching a friend who is a member of HK ITD knock down bowling pin sized pepper poppers at 75 yards offhand and never miss. Yeah, he's a damn good pistol shot. Yeah, once mine arrived I could do the same thing. A totally fixed barrel makes alot of difference I suppose.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:47:30 AM EST
I've had P7M8. All the hype about them, supper accurate, superb trigger, built like swiss watch, compact, reliable, and ergonomic; is all true. Having that said, design does make compromises. I think best use for P7M8 would be as a concealed carry piece. I do not conceal carry, and most of my handguns are for recreational use only. The complaints I have against P7 include: heat build up issue (it gest VERY hot after only 30-40 rounds). Pistol gets very dirty, and is bitch to clean. Recoil is rather sharp (though not bad considering its size). Brass come out very hot, and I got burned more than couple times from it (fluted chamber makes brass extra hot). P7 is very nice, but I'd rather 'shoot' Sig P210 if I want accurate pistol, or BHP/1911 if I am doing competitive style shooting. I sold mine for $1200, and bought Sig P210 instead. I was lucky cause this was about couple months before German P7 flooding. P7M8 will never sell for that much now days. I am sure you are familiar with both HK rifles and Steyr Aug. It's like cleaning HK93 rifle chamber, but with a AUG gas piston/plug. P7 is all business, and not much of a 'fun' pistol because of athe bove issues. But with recent flooded importation of German P7's for $650, I'd buy one if you are going to carry it. If your refurblished P7 has few cosmetic blemishes, I'd hard chrome it like most people do, because original blue finish on P7 wears out VERY fast, followed by quick rusting.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:49:21 AM EST
While we're on the topic of pinned barrels, the Makarov's got one, and is very accurate. Plus you could buy 10 of them for the price of a P7!! AIM's got em in stock... [url]www.aimsurplus.com[/url] I've got a couple, and you can't beat em for the price... Shawn
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:52:41 AM EST
good informative post, i've always been curious about the P7
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 10:56:35 AM EST
P7M8 is a great gun- I'm just waiting on my Alessi CQC-S to be done before I start carrying mine regularly. FWIW, I believe the NJSP are transitioning to the Sig P228, not sure what their reasons were for switching- cost is probably a major factor, as is mag capacity.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:10:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: I want a P7M8, but I'd have to handle one again. It's been a long time, so I may not like the grip. I want the M8 because I don't really like the heel mag release. I have a Sig P232, and I just can't seem to get used to it. I also don't like not being able to drop the empty with one hand while drawing a fresh mag. Just MHO. Thanks for the reminder Steyr...I had put this gun way at the back of my head.
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You can shoot my P7M8 anytime, just let me know. They are indeed all that's been mentioned. The actual squeeze to cock it is not much force, and you aren't requried to contiune squeezing it. There is an initial force required, but keeping it cocked takes far less. The weight of the gun alone is more than enough to keep it cocked. It's like any gun, once it's cocked, it's cocked and you don't need to worry about it. The mag release on the M8/M10/M13 is a lever like the USP/Walther P99. You push it down. It's easier to use your trigger finger to do it IMO. I like that desgin of mag release better than the button as your grip does not shift at all. The heel mag is flush on later PSPs. The only difference is the actual grip panels come down to cover the mag release better. You can just swap grips if you don't like one or the other (finding said grips at a decent price is another matter). Accuracy is the gun's strong suit. When I first bought mine I was blown away by how easy it was to shoot better than any of my other guns. The gun does shoot well. I thought there was nothing that could be more accurate until I bought a HK P9S. That blows away the P7. I need to find a Sig P210 now[:D] I think the used ones are the best buy. They're worth that price, and they are a high quality and interesting gun. I don't think they are worth the new retail price. That's a bit steep for the gun. Ross
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:13:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:35:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By Balzac72: I personally do not like them. They don't hold many rounds, they require a firm solid grip, which might change POI and generally, i'm not sold on the idea. What happens if you cannot get a firm grip in a gun fight? What happens if you are injured in a gunfight and need to switch to your weak hand? Think you can aim while squeezing? Nice novelty, bad idea. Edit: Lets not even talk about the mag release. I'd rate this as a modern Luger - interesting, but not practical for the times.
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Ever held one? I can engage the squeeze cocker with a single finger. And like a compound bow, once engaged can be held with even less pressure. Even with the suggested 'complicated contraption' I can easily outshoot all my other handguns. The P7M8 (US version) has the mag release in the usual place so it's no different from any other US gun. Do you also hate the Walther PP/PPK because of the heel mag release? You should really see one in person.
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This gun reminds me of a PPK with the hammer replaced by the squeeze-lever... Same pinned-barrel design (which is what makes the PPK so accurate for such a tiny gun), etc... PS, Steyr the PPK/PPKS mag release is in the typical 1911/92FS spot (on mine it is, anyhow)...
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:37:25 AM EST
Sounds like a cool gun, I'd like to try one sometime. To quibble a bit, my understanding was that the P7 series is gas-delayed blowback, not gas-operated. Although I could be wrong, since I've never had a chance to fiddle with one.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:38:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Ever held one?
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Yes, I used to sell them and I thought the idea was crap back then too. If you want it as a curiousity, then go for it, but you wouldn't find me carrying one. Its a solution for a problem that doesn't exist and I think the solution is overly complex and changes the dynamics of the pistol while in hand. And I'm not a believer in the PPK either, I think its dated, but I'd take one as a curiousity. IT has history, the P7 does not. If you have money to spare, go for it. I just don't find needs for guns I wouldn't use. If it were more like a 1911 safety, I might like it more, but considering the grip and the need to squeeze it as you do, I'm not a fan. In fact, we only sold one in the 2 years I worked at the gun store. Maybe I'm just a follower in the tried and true popular designs or maybe very few appreciate their weird ass grip safety!
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:39:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sparky315: P7M8 is a great gun- I'm just waiting on my Alessi CQC-S to be done before I start carrying mine regularly. FWIW, I believe the NJSP are transitioning to the Sig P228, not sure what their reasons were for switching- cost is probably a major factor, as is mag capacity.
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The cost of keeping up the guns, that were adopted in 1984? was too high. Here is the funny part, NJ will not sell any police weapon, or duty leather to the public. They switched over to the Smith & Wesson SW99, Destroyed all the holsters for the P7s, and when the SW99s kept screwing up, the re-issued the H&Ks and had to purchase all new leather! That cost the state ALOT of money.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 11:39:58 AM EST
Another informative post, thanks SA. Anyone by chance have an archive of Steyr's previous posts like this one (Steyr Aug, HK91, subguns, etc)? I dug through the GD forum the other night looking for the one on the HK 91 and it's clones, but got frustrated about 35 pages in.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 12:21:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 2:03:40 PM EST
How would you compare the recoil to a Glock 19? Dostum, can you elaborate a little bit on the small hands statement? Like I said, I haven't handled one in years, so I can't remember how it felt. I don't know if they still do, but U.S. Park Police carried these.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 2:50:17 PM EST
I shot a P7M8 back in the early 90s. It was thin, sat low in my hand, was accurate as hell, and was FAST on follow up shots. Once I got used to its unique manual of arms, it just felt great. I dont even like 9mms that much, but ever time I see a pic of one I still sigh and think "I need to get one of those." They are just COOL [:D]
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 2:56:50 PM EST
Recoil is a bit less than the Glock 19, IMO. Keep in mind the P7M8 is an all steel frame versus the Glock's polymer one. I'll never trade mine.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 3:07:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 3:46:50 PM EST
The P7 is a sweet gun, though I don't own one. A bud in grad school had a P7M13 we used to shoot, but I prefer the single stack mag guns. The 9mm guns look great, but the M10 looks like it has hydrocephalus. Not knocking it, just commenting that I find it peculiar looking. Good thread, SteyrAUG. DrMark
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 4:29:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Balzac72: I personally do not like them. They don't hold many rounds, they require a firm solid grip, which might change POI and generally, i'm not sold on the idea. What happens if you cannot get a firm grip in a gun fight? What happens if you are injured in a gunfight and need to switch to your weak hand? Think you can aim while squeezing? Nice novelty, bad idea. Edit: Lets not even talk about the mag release. I'd rate this as a modern Luger - interesting, but not practical for the times.
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Translation: I can't afford them.
Link Posted: 1/23/2004 4:35:18 PM EST
[lolabove]
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