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Posted: 12/17/2009 11:43:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 11:54:51 AM EDT by bluefalcon]
We’ve got another shotguns vs. carbine thread going and the dipshit level is, as always, strong. Is it because no one reads the Box o’ Truth? Are they so stupid that they would rather believe some bullshit spouted by the 350lb specialforcesmarinerecondeltasealsniper who spends all day on the customer side of the gun counter just because he’s wearing black jungle boots with black BDU pants and a black T-shirt with cigarette burns and taco sauce on it? Anybody wearing that much black must know what the fuck they’re talking about right? How fucking retarded are people that they can’t accept empirical data derived from experimental evidence? What kind of chest beating, mouth breathing, helmet wearing, window licking fucktard can’t let go of dipshit ideas in the face of evidence? It’s not like Old_Painless is the only one who has ever done any penetration tests and it’s not like it’s hard to set up a couple pieces of drywall, meat or water jugs to determine what real bullets really do, for real. Fucking retards.

Don’t get me wrong, I like hearing the various views on the real world merits of 9mm vs. .45 and shotgun vs. carbine or any number of other debates. I’m also not trying to tell folks what to do in their own homes. Use a fucking Super Soaker for HD for all I care.

ETA: speaking of 'tards, I managed to cut off the "3." from pi when I copied and pasted.

For those that have somehow managed not to read the Box o’ Truth, despite the numerous links and suggestions, pull your head out of your ass and click the mother fucking link:
Box o' Truth
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:46:25 AM EDT
Not sure what the question is......... Either way I read, enjoy and believe the box o' truth and I prefer the shotgun.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:48:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 11:48:29 AM EDT by five2one]


I like pi.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:50:50 AM EDT
City house I use a shotgun

Country house I use a rifle
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:52:11 AM EDT
Not sure what you're asking but yes, I've read The Box O' Truth.



Also, I would suggest a carbine over a shotgun for home defense.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:52:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
Not sure what the question is......... Either way I read, enjoy and believe the box o' truth and I prefer the shotgun.


There are rational reasons to pick a shotgun or other weapon(s) for HD. Do what you want, you’re a grownup and this is still (kinda) a free country. I’m talking about the mind numbingly hopeless fuckwads that insist on birdshot, racking actions, etc. In short, they are making life and death decisions based on Hollywood fakery and weirdo mall ninja fantasy.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:53:08 AM EDT
141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399­37510
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:55:35 AM EDT
930 is headed to Mossberg for some warranty work so I'm using my AR now.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:56:28 AM EDT
Carbine if you can afford one, shotgun if you cant.

Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:56:48 AM EDT
I think the ultimate home defense set up does not even envolve firearms. Ideally, I would have a rack of liquid nitrogen dewers in an underground enclosure  in my back yard. I would also run tubing into every room and hallway except for the main quarters. In the event if a hone invasion I would turn a valve filling the house with fog/liquid nitrogen. After the tanks emptied I would shoot the frozen ne'er-do-wells with a bb gun, shattering them just like in terminator.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:00:59 PM EDT
ok
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:01:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 12:03:14 PM EDT by mike12345]
The box o truth you mention dosen't accurately depict what a short barrel shotgun will do. The pattern diameter will be much wider.

My 8in SBS will throw a pattern as wide as an E type silouhette at about 25 feet.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:03:21 PM EDT
Shotgun for me...why?.......it's the one I have  the most trigger time with.....oh and I would simply rack it....but for home defense I use a SxS....yeah I know not very techy......a Bushy for backup is close by


RG
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:06:17 PM EDT
Both

and pie
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:07:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
City house I use a shotgun

Country house I use a rifle


Right tool for the job.
I'm not roamin' the range here, we're talking about an engagement taking place inside of ten yards.
There are other inhabited structures within 75 feet on all sides.

I'll say this again and you can laugh all you want and roll your eyes...
The average urbanite cares not a whit about superior ballistics.
They respect and fear shotguns.

Period.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:07:51 PM EDT
I use a 91/30 for HD. Fixed bayonet.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:12:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bob200587:
I use a 91/30 for HD. Fixed bayonet.


7 yard stabbings GO!
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:15:14 PM EDT
(pi - 3) x 10^50 ?
(that's one of your options...)
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:19:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 12:20:30 PM EDT by HardShell]
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:23:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 12:24:04 PM EDT by Silence]





Originally Posted By mike12345:



The box o truth you mention dosen't accurately depict what a short barrel shotgun will do. The pattern diameter will be much wider.





My 8in SBS will throw a pattern as wide as an E type silouhette at about 25 feet.



With what penetration?





 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:26:54 PM EDT



Originally Posted By RDTCU:


(pi - 3) x 10^50 ?

(that's one of your options...)







 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:27:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:33:19 PM EDT
<––––––-   bare hands
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:34:45 PM EDT
Poll fail
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 12:58:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NH_AR_Shooter:
Carbine if you can afford one, shotgun if you cant.



Not really what I was asking, but thanks anyway. I agree.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:02:13 PM EDT
Dude, I once picked up an old Brit 303 loaded with mil spec fmj in my apartment because it was the closest thing available and I thought SHTF and I wasn't going to be taken alive.

If zombies in body armor were outside, I was ready. Everyone else was going to have to fend for themselves.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:02:25 PM EDT




 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:11:27 PM EDT
Carbine>Handgun. I want to know where ALL my rounds are going.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:16:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
Not sure what the question is......... Either way I read, enjoy and believe the box o' truth and I prefer the shotgun.


There are rational reasons to pick a shotgun or other weapon(s) for HD. Do what you want, you’re a grownup and this is still (kinda) a free country. I’m talking about the mind numbingly hopeless fuckwads that insist on birdshot, racking actions, etc. In short, they are making life and death decisions based on Hollywood fakery and weirdo mall ninja fantasy.

The number of times I've had to deal with customers who believe that all they need to do is "rack the slide" on the 12 gauge for which they're filling out the paperwork, and that's all that's needed for criminals to go away, is mind boggling.

Customer: "Yep.  Just rack the slide, and they'll shit their pants"
Me: "Or, they'll know from the sound exactly where you are, and that you are now up and armed.  Meanwhile, you don't know where they are, how many there are, if they're armed, if they'll just kill you to take your stuff, or calmly leave."
C: "But all you've gotta do is point that thang towards the door and pull the trigger, and they'll get vaporized"
Me: "Due to how shotgun shells are constructed, they don't instantly fan out like you see in the movies, but take X number of feet to begin to expand, and a "near miss" doesn't count.  Learning what you're doing, training with your intended loadout, and being competent with what you're buying are key.  I mean, after all, it's only your life on the line, right?"
C: "Huh.  Never thought of that."
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:19:47 PM EDT
As others have said Rifle/carbine > Shotgun > Handgun.

And as I said in the other thread:  As much as I love my Marlin 336, at the moment I am content to use my shotguns.  It's based on the fact that I have more trigger time on my shotguns, and therefore, am more comfortable with them; I have more ammo for them; and at this time they are set up for fighting better than the Marlin is.

Any fight in my home will take place in shotgun range, so I think we'd be okay in using them.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:24:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 1:35:44 PM EDT by CLIP67]
Nothing better than a shotgun at hallway ranges...

Outside of that, carbine.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:24:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:25:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 1:26:30 PM EDT by mark75101]
Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
Not sure what the question is......... Either way I read, enjoy and believe the box o' truth and I prefer the shotgun.


+1

Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:30:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 1:40:58 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:39:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
We’ve got another shotguns vs. carbine thread going and the dipshit level is, as always, strong. Is it because no one reads the Box o’ Truth? Are they so stupid that they would rather believe some bullshit spouted by the 350lb specialforcesmarinerecondeltasealsniper who spends all day on the customer side of the gun counter just because he’s wearing black jungle boots with black BDU pants and a black T-shirt with cigarette burns and taco sauce on it? Anybody wearing that much black must know what the fuck they’re talking about right? How fucking retarded are people that they can’t accept empirical data derived from experimental evidence? What kind of chest beating, mouth breathing, helmet wearing, window licking fucktard can’t let go of dipshit ideas in the face of evidence? It’s not like Old_Painless is the only one who has ever done any penetration tests and it’s not like it’s hard to set up a couple pieces of drywall, meat or water jugs to determine what real bullets really do, for real. Fucking retards.

Don’t get me wrong, I like hearing the various views on the real world merits of 9mm vs. .45 and shotgun vs. carbine or any number of other debates. I’m also not trying to tell folks what to do in their own homes. Use a fucking Super Soaker for HD for all I care.

ETA: speaking of 'tards, I managed to cut off the "3." from pi when I copied and pasted.

For those that have somehow managed not to read the Box o’ Truth, despite the numerous links and suggestions, pull your head out of your ass and click the mother fucking link:
Box o' Truth


Rough day at the office?
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 2:58:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
As others have noted, both the shotgun and the carbine are fine systems for home defense.

The advantages of a shotgun are that they tend to be less expensive than a carbine, they are fairly simple to operate, and with the proper loads (00 buck) they are very effective.

The limitations of a shotgun are:

1. It is most effective with the proper ammunition.

2. It is most effective from zero to 30 yards. As Clint Smith reminds us, "At close range, it will remove meat and bone."

3. It can be effective out to 75-100 yards with slugs.

4. It has limited ammunition capacity. This increases the need for "manipulation", and is, in Clint's opinion, its major problem.

If your adversary is not wearing armor, then a load of 00 buck can be very effective at Stopping his actions.

The advantages of a rifle are precision, high ammo capacity, quick and easy reloads, and very powerful ammunition.

Both are good systems.

But Carbine > Shotgun > Pistol, is still true for most applications.




What if I am defending myself from a very aggressive magpie that lives somewhere near my house?

(Don't laugh, it has happened )
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:13:33 PM EDT
Wait a minute.....this is a trick question





There is no decimal point.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:22:34 PM EDT
Shotgun.

Birdshot followed by a tube of buck.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:23:12 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Goet:


Shotgun.



Birdshot followed by a tube of buck.







 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:24:02 PM EDT
IBDusty_CDan_Gray
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:24:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Goet:
Shotgun.

Birdshot followed by a tube of buck.


 


My choice made based on empirical evidence and cold hard facts of life.

Bring it, bitches!!!!


Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:32:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Goet:
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Goet:
Shotgun.

Birdshot followed by a tube of buck.


 


My choice made based on empirical evidence and cold hard facts of life.

Bring it, bitches!!!!




that home invaders first send a pigeon in to make sure its safe?

Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:33:06 PM EDT
Carbine all the way.   Keep in mind I have mounted a large speaker and an IPod to my rail system. It plays the sound of my 870 being racked to scare all the people who wouldn't be scared by the black assault rifle in my hands as I search the property.


   Seriously a shotgun in gay states like NJ and Mass (I'm an exile) or when your carbine is broke. Either one is fine so long as you have a light mounted to it and your trained (conduct rehearsals in your house) in its use as well as the local laws.


Vin
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:34:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MALT0SE:
I think the ultimate home defense set up does not even envolve firearms. Ideally, I would have a rack of liquid nitrogen dewers in an underground enclosure  in my back yard. I would also run tubing into every room and hallway except for the main quarters. In the event if a hone invasion I would turn a valve filling the house with fog/liquid nitrogen. After the tanks emptied I would shoot the frozen ne'er-do-wells with a bb gun, shattering them just like in terminator.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:41:50 PM EDT
I;ve allways used a shotgun for the house....something about hitting a motherfucker with a wall of shot allways appealed to me
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:53:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 3:53:34 PM EDT by SemperFi89]
edit: fail
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 3:58:20 PM EDT



Originally Posted By bob200587:


I use a 91/30 for HD. Fixed bayonet.


I like M44s better, more compact


 
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 4:07:00 PM EDT
I plan on using really strong language for home defense.  I'm sure they'll do a Box 'O Truth about different expletives.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 4:10:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
Not sure what the question is......... Either way I read, enjoy and believe the box o' truth and I prefer the shotgun.


There are rational reasons to pick a shotgun or other weapon(s) for HD. Do what you want, you’re a grownup and this is still (kinda) a free country. I’m talking about the mind numbingly hopeless fuckwads that insist on birdshot, racking actions, etc. In short, they are making life and death decisions based on Hollywood fakery and weirdo mall ninja fantasy.
And these are the people I hope to face as my adversaries some day...ignorant, over confident and untrained. I'll be collecting plenty of spare weapons and ammo.

Link Posted: 12/17/2009 4:12:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 4:17:29 PM EDT by monkeyman]
When I was in the French merchant sub marine airborne special forces infantry we were issued special suppressed .410 subguns with birdshot for hunting terrorists in Antarctica. I always thought that they would make the best HD guns.  
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 4:16:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WhirlyGirl45:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
Not sure what the question is......... Either way I read, enjoy and believe the box o' truth and I prefer the shotgun.


There are rational reasons to pick a shotgun or other weapon(s) for HD. Do what you want, you’re a grownup and this is still (kinda) a free country. I’m talking about the mind numbingly hopeless fuckwads that insist on birdshot, racking actions, etc. In short, they are making life and death decisions based on Hollywood fakery and weirdo mall ninja fantasy.
And these are the people I hope to face as my adversaries some day...ignorant, over confident and untrained. I'll be collecting plenty of spare weapons and ammo.



All you internet commandos that piss on birdshot, I dare you to perform your own box o'truth.  Take your favorite weapon, any kind, any load.  Make a man-sized target and place at a distance of 2-5 yards.  Then take your firstborn child and place behind your target.  

What was I told before?  Oh, yeah... I'm just not confident in shot placement to use buckshot when shooting toward my child through a couple sheets of drywall.  Apparently I lack ninja skilz.
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