Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 10/14/2004 7:32:24 PM EST
On on TCM (Turner Classic Movies)
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:35:16 PM EST
1911 .45 Didn't he kill something like 20 Germans single handedly??
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:43:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By A2sights:
1911 .45 Didn't he kill something like 20 Germans single handedly??



yep but in the movie they had him with a luger!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:45:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By A2sights:
1911 .45 Didn't he kill something like 20 Germans single handedly??



plus he captured like 120 more.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:00:36 AM EST
[gobble gobble gobble]
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:04:45 AM EST
He used a Springfield 1903 rifle, just him in front of a dug in German MG company. Every time one of them would pop his head up to try and shoot SGT York, he would catch a 30.06 in the face.

SGT Alvin York grew up in TN (pretty sure), was very poor and learned to shoot by shooting tree rats- I mean squirrels. Then he got religious, and was a concientous objector, but the recruiter got a priest to talk to him and by God, he went. When in Basic, he wrote letters to his mother apologizing, because he lived so much better and ate better at Army Basic than he did at home.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:07:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He used a Springfield 1903 rifle, just him in front of a dug in German MG company. Every time one of them would pop his head up to try and shoot SGT York, he would catch a 30.06 in the face.



I thought he used an Enfield
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:09:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Witch_Doctor:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He used a Springfield 1903 rifle, just him in front of a dug in German MG company. Every time one of them would pop his head up to try and shoot SGT York, he would catch a 30.06 in the face.



I thought he used an Enfield


He did. 1917 I believe. 03 was in the movie.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:24:57 AM EST
War is killin'. And the Book's agin' killin'...so War is agin' the Book."

Alvin York. A REAL Hero.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:31:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 10:31:55 AM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By Gun-fan:

Originally Posted By Witch_Doctor:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He used a Springfield 1903 rifle, just him in front of a dug in German MG company. Every time one of them would pop his head up to try and shoot SGT York, he would catch a 30.06 in the face.



I thought he used an Enfield


He did. 1917 I believe. 03 was in the movie.



Indeed!!! He used a "US Rifle Model of 1917". It is a FAR superior rifle to the '03. The reason it wasn't selected as the standard rifle after the war is because the government completely owned '03 production, and the '17 was a contracted item from companies having labor disputes typical of the time. This movie is a primary driver of the unearned love many people have for the '03 and all things Springfield.

York is a legitimate hero, and a real fugitive from the odds. The movie is a bit too campy for modern tastes though.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:46:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 10:47:41 AM EST by Old_Painless]
I will try to quote from memory:

"Sgt York had held down the company of Germans and a German Lt. finally decided to flank him. The Lt. took 7 men with him.

As they got within 20 yards of Sgt. York, they fixed bayonets and charged with a yell.

Sgt. York saw them and realized that he couldn't reload the rifle fast enough to get them all. He pulled his 1911 .45ACP and went to work.

He also realized that if he shot the front man, the rest might stop and shoot him. So, he shot the last man first and worked toward the front.

He killed all eight men in the time it took them to run 20 yards.

That's what a great fighting man can do with a great fighting pistol."

Thanks, Sgt. York.

salute
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:52:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:52:59 AM EST
Who makes the 1917. I am not familiar with it. I thought they all had 1903s.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:41:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 11:47:03 AM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Who makes the 1917. I am not familiar with it. I thought they all had 1903s.

The '17 is simply the finest bolt action rifle ever...

This is somewhat of my area of expertise, so here goes:

The story starts in England around 1910, where the old school types though that the SMLE was not a good rifle. Their basic complaint was that it was not a Mauser. Keep in mind that the SMLE hadn't yet proven itself in combat, as it would later. In addition to this dislike of the SMLE, it was expensive to make. At the same time, the brass also concluded that the .303 service cartridge wasn't sufficiently powerful in the era of the 1905 version of 7.92*57 Mauser. Thus, the ordinance people got to work on a replacement rifle and cartridge. They were designed for eachother. The rifle was called the pattern 1913 and was basically a more modern Mauser with good sights (the main mauser problem). The cartridge was new and called the .276 British.

Initial testing proved a problem because the .276 was way too powerful. Keep in mind that the old school boer war type brass thought long range marksmanship was everything. As such, one of the requirements of the design of the .276 cartridge was a nearly flat trajectory to 500 yards and to be reasonably on target at 2,800 yards. The power was such that the bore was eroded badly after 1,000 rounds, and the muzzle blast was considerd 'offensive' (although probably less than todays short barreled 7.62*51 rifles). Another complaint was that the muzzle flash was visible for 1 mile on a clear night.

Before addressing these problems, WWI started, and being practical, they simply rechambered this rifle to use .303. It was called the Pattern 1914. British factories were not tooled up for this rifle, but they were for the SMLE, so they kept producing SMLEs and contracted for Pattern '14s in the US. The Remington made the bulk in various factories, with Winchester bringing up the rear. Several million were made in '15 & '16. However, when the contract was over, they simply stopped as the SMLE had achieved legendary status by '16 and it was felt that another Pattern '14 contract was not needed.

At this same time, the US found itself with far too few rifles, and an inability to make enough quickly, they just used the same rifle, but chambered it for .30-06 calling it the 'US Rifle Model of 1917'. The only real differences were sight changes due to '06 being more powerful. The same manufactures produced them, Remington at varous factories, with Winchester following up.

After the war, superior '17 was not chosen as standard because the government didn't own the production as they did with the '03. Thus, the '03 won the honor, and the history knows the '17 as the rifle that didn't make the cut. All sorts of gun lore poped up about why it didn't make the cut, but most all of stories are wrong.

More than you asked, but I haven't soapboxed it for a while...
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:42:46 AM EST
1917 Enfields were made by Winchester, Remington & Eddystone. It later became the Remington Model 30 if memory serves me right.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:44:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
1917 Enfields were made by Winchester, Remington & Eddystone. It later became the Remington Model 30 if memory serves me right.

You are correct, but Eddystone was owned by Remington.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:45:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Who makes the 1917. I am not familiar with it. I thought they all had 1903s.

The '17 is simply the finest bolt action rifle ever...

This is somewhat of my area of expertise, so here goes:

The story starts in England around 1910, where the old school types though that the SMLE was not a good rifle. Their basic complaint was that it was not a Mauser. Keep in mind that the SMLE hadn't yet proven itself in combat, as it would later. In addition to this dislike of the SMLE, it was expensive to make. At the same time, the brass also concluded that the .303 service cartridge wasn't sufficiently powerful in the era of the 1905 version of 7.92*57 Mauser. Thus, the ordinance people got to work on a replacement rifle and cartridge. They were designed for eachother. The rifle was called the pattern 1913 and was basically a more modern Mauser with good sights (the main mauser problem). The cartridge was new and called the .276 British.

Initial testing proved a problem because the .276 was way too powerful. Keep in mind that the old school boer war type brass though long range marksmanship was everything. As such, one of the requirements of the design of the .276 cartridge was a nearly flat trajectory to 500 yards. The power was such that the bore was eroded badly after 1,000 rounds, and the muzzle blast was considerd 'offensive' (although probably less than todays short barreled 7.62*51 rifles). Another complaint was that the muzzle flash was visible for 1 mile on a clear night.

Before addressing these problems, WWI started, and being practical, they simply rechambered this rifle to use .303. It was called the Pattern 1914. British factories were not tooled up for this rifle, but there were for the SMLE, so they kept producing SMLEs and contracted for Pattern '14s in the US. The Remington made the bulk in various factories, with Winchester bringing up the rear. Several million were made in '15 & '16. However, when the contract was over, they simply stopped as the SMLE had achieved legendary status by '16 and it was felt that another Pattern '14 contract was not needed.

At this same time, the US found itself with far too few rifles, and an inability to make enough quickly, they just used the same rifle, but chambered it for .30-06 calling it the 'US Rifle Model of 1917'. The only real differences were sight changes due to '06 being more powerful. The same manufactures produced them, Remington at varous factories, with Winchester following up.

After the war, superior '17 was not chosen as standard because the government didn't own the production as they did with the '03. Thus, the '03 won the honor, and the history knows the '17 as the rifle that didn't make the cut. All sorts of gun lore poped up about why it didn't make the cut, but most all of stories are wrong.

More than you asked, but I haven't soapboxed it for a while...



Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:45:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By treelander:
War is killin'. And the Book's agin' killin'...so War is agin' the Book."

Alvin York. A REAL Hero.



cool sig dude...for the unwashed steeped only in the Saxonspeak, it means:

"And shepherds we shall be,
for thee my lord for thee.
Power hath decended forth from thy hand
so our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
And we shall flow a river forth to thee
and teeming with souls shall it ever be."

Which some folks may recognize lol.

Here's some more:

Agus na damnaithe fágtha gan focal
Glaoigh ormsa i measc na naomh.

"Never shall innocent blood be shed. Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god."

That's a dead giveaway, surely (hey...don't call me shirley).

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:48:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
The '17 is simply the finest bolt action rifle ever...

This is somewhat of my area of expertise, so here goes:




I've read several books about Sgt. York, and believe it or not, the water is "cloudy" regarding which rifle he used.

In his own book, he indicated that it may have been a Pattern 14 in .303.

Whatever it was, the old boy could sure shoot.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:48:59 AM EST
"That kind of thing ain't for buyin' and sellin'."

What a guy.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:52:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
The '17 is simply the finest bolt action rifle ever...

This is somewhat of my area of expertise, so here goes:




I've read several books about Sgt. York, and believe it or not, the water is "cloudy" regarding which rifle he used.

In his own book, he indicated that it may have been a Pattern 14 in .303.

Whatever it was, the old boy could sure shoot.


Do you really think he wrote his own book... It would suprise me greatly to see US troops with .303 rifles (apart from emergency battlefield pickups). If we couldn't get our own stuff, we generally used French gear.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:55:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gun-fan:

Originally Posted By Witch_Doctor:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He used a Springfield 1903 rifle, just him in front of a dug in German MG company. Every time one of them would pop his head up to try and shoot SGT York, he would catch a 30.06 in the face.



I thought he used an Enfield


He did. 1917 I believe. 03 was in the movie.



No, No! It was a FN!! Or was it a FAL???
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:56:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 11:57:14 AM EST by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Do you really think he wrote his own book...



It seems so. It is written so poorly, that it takes a while to catch some of it. But it is great reading.
You can tell that he is a man that means what he says.


It would suprise me greatly to see US troops with .303 rifles (apart from emergency battlefield pickups). If we couldn't get our own stuff, we generally used French gear.



IIRC, he said that they were having problems getting equipment when he arrived and his outfit was given British rifles due to the fact that they were fighting in the same area as the Brits.

I guess you will make me go dig out the book.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:57:59 AM EST
Contemporary photos of his unit (82nd Division) show them armed with the P-17. Yorks own confusion may be over the fact that the rifle was adapted from one made for the British Army-hence a question ove rthe caliber and type. By far most US Army troops were armed with P-17's, especially units like the 82nd, which were formed for the war and weren't "old" Army units, which usually had '03's.
Of course, some units used SMLE's, and most Colored Units were equipped with French rifles and uniforms.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:58:20 AM EST
Ma wants you Alvin. Ma wants you.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:58:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Who makes the 1917. I am not familiar with it. I thought they all had 1903s.

The '17 is simply the finest bolt action rifle ever...

This is somewhat of my area of expertise, so here goes:

The story starts in England around 1910, where the old school types though that the SMLE was not a good rifle. Their basic complaint was that it was not a Mauser. Keep in mind that the SMLE hadn't yet proven itself in combat, as it would later. In addition to this dislike of the SMLE, it was expensive to make. At the same time, the brass also concluded that the .303 service cartridge wasn't sufficiently powerful in the era of the 1905 version of 7.92*57 Mauser. Thus, the ordinance people got to work on a replacement rifle and cartridge. They were designed for eachother. The rifle was called the pattern 1913 and was basically a more modern Mauser with good sights (the main mauser problem). The cartridge was new and called the .276 British.

Initial testing proved a problem because the .276 was way too powerful. Keep in mind that the old school boer war type brass thought long range marksmanship was everything. As such, one of the requirements of the design of the .276 cartridge was a nearly flat trajectory to 500 yards and to be reasonably on target at 2,800 yards. The power was such that the bore was eroded badly after 1,000 rounds, and the muzzle blast was considerd 'offensive' (although probably less than todays short barreled 7.62*51 rifles). Another complaint was that the muzzle flash was visible for 1 mile on a clear night.

Before addressing these problems, WWI started, and being practical, they simply rechambered this rifle to use .303. It was called the Pattern 1914. British factories were not tooled up for this rifle, but they were for the SMLE, so they kept producing SMLEs and contracted for Pattern '14s in the US. The Remington made the bulk in various factories, with Winchester bringing up the rear. Several million were made in '15 & '16. However, when the contract was over, they simply stopped as the SMLE had achieved legendary status by '16 and it was felt that another Pattern '14 contract was not needed.

At this same time, the US found itself with far too few rifles, and an inability to make enough quickly, they just used the same rifle, but chambered it for .30-06 calling it the 'US Rifle Model of 1917'. The only real differences were sight changes due to '06 being more powerful. The same manufactures produced them, Remington at varous factories, with Winchester following up.

After the war, superior '17 was not chosen as standard because the government didn't own the production as they did with the '03. Thus, the '03 won the honor, and the history knows the '17 as the rifle that didn't make the cut. All sorts of gun lore poped up about why it didn't make the cut, but most all of stories are wrong.

More than you asked, but I haven't soapboxed it for a while...



What's the going rate on a 17 in good condition?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:06:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:07:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

What's the going rate on a 17 in good condition?

They've moved into the collector only area, at least in my area. It's hard to find a good one less than $600. The $400 ones I've seen wer beaten and had sewer pipe bores.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:10:19 PM EST
According to the sources that I have read, there were actually more 1917's used by our troops than 1903's in WWI.

The reason for the Luger in the movie was that the 1911 would not function with blanks and the Luger would.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:12:40 PM EST
I expect that for York, the rifle was only a minor part of the equation. He might not have been a book smart man but "field" smart was at the top.

All indications were he went home after the war and pretty much settled back in. I remember seeing a few years back that his son had died and one of the comments was that he had followed in his fathers foot steps and had been Sheriff of the county.

Must have had a lot of surrenders to the Courthouse. I mean if you lived back in the hills and heard Alvin York was coming after you, what would you do?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:34:13 PM EST
Yes the U.S. Model 17 was produced in larger numbers than the 03. Springfield Armory and others could not make enough of the 03. It was far easier to change the Patern 14 for 30.06 than to tool up all the other firearms companies to produce 03's. Glad I bought mine for $350 a few years back, a 1918 Edddystone. I hug it all the time to let the little bastard know it is still loved.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:44:17 PM EST
Whoa, aside from the sights, what made the 1917 Enfield superior to the 1903 Springfield?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:46:18 PM EST
Here's a link to Alvin York's diary. You'll want to read the October 8th, 1918 part, it has the story of the battle in question. Couldn't find any reference to the rifle, but he call's his pistol "The ole' automatic".

http://www.alvincyork.org/Diary.htm

My favorite quote from the movie is from the Turkey Shoot scene...

"First place gets the turkey, second place gets to keep all the lead out of the logs".

Thanks Sgt. York!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:02:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:08:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Witch_Doctor:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He used a Springfield 1903 rifle, just him in front of a dug in German MG company. Every time one of them would pop his head up to try and shoot SGT York, he would catch a 30.06 in the face.



I thought he used an Enfield



A US Rifle M1917 (P17) to be exact, a 30.06 version of the British designed P14 Enfield. York prefered the 03, but during the famous engagement he had a P17.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 3:26:25 PM EST
I once read somewhere that the reason they used a Luger in the movie was that the prop men could not get their .45 to function with blanks.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 3:40:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Indeed!!! He used a "US Rifle Model of 1917". It is a FAR superior rifle to the '03. The reason it wasn't selected as the standard rifle after the war is because the government completely owned '03 production, and the '17 was a contracted item from companies having labor disputes typical of the time. This movie is a primary driver of the unearned love many people have for the '03 and all things Springfield.




Is the CMP ever going to sell P17s again? I've always liked them better than M1903s.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 3:58:38 PM EST
Who gives a shit which rifle he used ??
The man was a hero and could shoot like a sniper.
It's 99.9% his skill and .1% his weapon.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:05:03 PM EST
Once around that er big woman is like twice around bar mountain!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:10:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Fenian:

Originally Posted By treelander:
War is killin'. And the Book's agin' killin'...so War is agin' the Book."

Alvin York. A REAL Hero.



cool sig dude...for the unwashed steeped only in the Saxonspeak, it means:

"And shepherds we shall be,
for thee my lord for thee.
Power hath decended forth from thy hand
so our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
And we shall flow a river forth to thee
and teeming with souls shall it ever be."

Which some folks may recognize lol.

Here's some more:

Agus na damnaithe fágtha gan focal
Glaoigh ormsa i measc na naomh.

"Never shall innocent blood be shed. Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god."

That's a dead giveaway, surely (hey...don't call me shirley).




I can't wait for the new one to come out!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:17:14 PM EST
I always enjoyed watching that movie.

MT
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:25:18 PM EST
I have an ERA (Eddystone) P14 with the Parker Hale PH5B sights. It is my favorite bolt action rifle! If you ever find a set of Parker Hale PH5B sights, do not hesitate to buy them. You will pay over a hundred bucks, but they are worth every penny! These fit the the 1917 and P14. You simply remove the old sights, and these precision micrometer sights bolt on without altering your rifle! Parker hale made a version for the SMLE , the PH5A.

I also have a 1917 Eddystone. The standard sights on the P14 and 1917's are not windage adjustable, like on the '03. I have a standard Rock Island '03 form the CMP and that thing is a tack driver! I shot an across the course HP rifle match (200, 300 and 600 yards) for the hell of it with that '03 and did fairly well.

Get all four, the 03, 03A3, P14, and 1917like I did. All of these rifles are works of art. Why not have your cake and eat it too...

The icing on the cake for me is having an 1898 Krag! Those are neat to shoot.

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:39:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
SGT Alvin York grew up in TN (pretty sure), was very poor and learned to shoot by shooting tree rats- I mean squirrels. Then he got religious, and was a concientous objector, but the recruiter got a priest to talk to him and by God, he went. When in Basic, he wrote letters to his mother apologizing, because he lived so much better and ate better at Army Basic than he did at home.



Yes, TN. There is a museum there at his old homestead. He had one toy as kid, carved out of wood (If I remember correctly -- its been over 10 years). He was literally dirt poor. He also didn't like the Gary Cooper movie because Cooper smoke and drank in real life and York thought him a poor role model.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:05:57 PM EST
He's from Pall Mall Tn near Jamestown on the Tn/Ky border north of Cookeville.
We have relatives near there. The York family still resides there but keeps a low profile.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:13:29 PM EST
Wonder if they'll ever redo that movie. Heck, they're doing everything else over again, why not? I don't think any modern actor can top Gary Cooper though, not in that role.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:56:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 7:00:37 PM EST by georgiarebel6165]

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Who gives a shit which rifle he used ??
The man was a hero and could shoot like a sniper.
It's 99.9% his skill and .1% his weapon.



+1 on that

My favorite hero! In the same company with Henry, Lee, Jackson, Murphy, and Hathcock. All Southern boys. We learn'em young down here.

"The Lord sure do work in some mysterious ways" - Alvin C. York


I went to a gun show to by a 03 like Sgt. York carried. Luckly the WWII vetern who was selling it told me I'd want to get the 1917 he had next to it. He told me the 03 was all Hollywood, York carried the 17. I gave him $250 for a Winchester 1917. Very accurate rifle.

Thanks Sgt. York. We need more like you today!
Top Top