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Posted: 8/31/2004 10:23:06 AM EST
I am getting ready for the 14th. I have a screw on bayonet lug and a RRA 6-pos stock ready to install on each AR in turn.

I have already removed the stock and buffer tube from one of my lowers, and I am ready to go at midnight +1.

Q1. The stock did not come with instructions, and my time in the Corps was prior to the M4s. How does the funny looking fat plate go on? Dimple towards the grip or away?

Q2. How do I make sure the tube is correctly aligned up and down?

Q3. Are there any precautions I need to take? (oil threads, oil the tube?)

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

Q5. I assume that the order is first the nut, then the plate, then screw in the tube most of the way, then install the buffer pin and hold while screwing, then align the tube, then align the plate and screw the nut. Is this correct?

I intend to assemble the first lower, rotate all the uppers on it with the screw-on lug, and then assemble the second lower and do the same.

How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:38:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.



I don't believe it's come to this.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:41:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.



I know some are going to take notarized time-stamped photos.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:41:20 AM EST
I'll probably have a Rabbi thread my barrel, and take an add out in the local paper with me and my rifles pictured together.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:42:04 AM EST


Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.




I'm not the next ban(if there is one) will have to grandfather all the guns up to the day the new ban(again if there is one) takes effect, as they won't ban and confiscate any of those guns, it would be as they say political suicide.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:42:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 10:43:02 AM EST by Torf]

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
I am getting ready for the 14th 13th!. I have a screw on bayonet lug and a RRA 6-pos stock ready to install on each AR in turn.

I have already removed the stock and buffer tube from one of my lowers, and I am ready to go at midnight +1 +0!.

How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney. Nothing! Fokum!




Fixed it for you!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:54:38 AM EST
Take pics, mail it to yourself and do not open. If there is ever a problem, you can open in it court and show the court the postmark.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:56:33 AM EST
Its pretty sad when people are that fearful of there government...

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:57:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By imposter:
Take pics, mail it to yourself and do not open. If there is ever a problem, you can open in it court and show the court the postmark.



Won't work. Postmark an empty envelope.

Not that it matters. The lower is serial numbered! I doubt that there will be any procecutions for you having a phantom on your 2002 Bushmaster after the 13th.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 10:59:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoNotTreadOnMe:
Its pretty sad when people are that fearful of there government...





well no one wants to go to jail, do you?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:03:05 AM EST
preparing for a law that doesnt exist?

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:03:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
I am getting ready for the 14th. I have a screw on bayonet lug and a RRA 6-pos stock ready to install on each AR in turn.

I have already removed the stock and buffer tube from one of my lowers, and I am ready to go at midnight +1.

Q1. The stock did not come with instructions, and my time in the Corps was prior to the M4s. How does the funny looking fat plate go on? Dimple towards the grip or away?

Q2. How do I make sure the tube is correctly aligned up and down?

Q3. Are there any precautions I need to take? (oil threads, oil the tube?)

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

Q5. I assume that the order is first the nut, then the plate, then screw in the tube most of the way, then install the buffer pin and hold while screwing, then align the tube, then align the plate and screw the nut. Is this correct?

I intend to assemble the first lower, rotate all the uppers on it with the screw-on lug, and then assemble the second lower and do the same.

How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.



Bottom of this page; ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:03:58 AM EST
Im not planning to try to prove shit...

PS - this is NOT a rant at Happyshooter, I just get annoyed when I am expected to bend over for authority.....

First of all, there is no "new" ban....just one old dying one....
and second, when and if a new one is enacted, let the fkn government "prove" that I assembled my rifle at any time other than when I said I did.

I realize that a law is a law...and thus far I have abided by the AWB...but after it sunsets I am putting on my telestock and not looking back. If a time comes later when someone asks about it, they will just have to take my credit card reciept as proof.....and the many pics of me at the range.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:04:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
I'll probably have a Rabbi thread my barrel, and take an add out in the local paper with me and my rifles pictured together.



I don't care who y'are, that there is funny!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:06:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Torf:

Originally Posted By imposter:
Take pics, mail it to yourself and do not open. If there is ever a problem, you can open in it court and show the court the postmark.



Won't work. Postmark an empty envelope.


Put the address on the 'back' of the envelope. Put the postmark over the sealed flap.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:06:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
I am getting ready for the 14th. I have a screw on bayonet lug and a RRA 6-pos stock ready to install on each AR in turn.

I have already removed the stock and buffer tube from one of my lowers, and I am ready to go at midnight +1.

Q1. The stock did not come with instructions, and my time in the Corps was prior to the M4s. How does the funny looking fat plate go on? Dimple towards the grip or away?

Q2. How do I make sure the tube is correctly aligned up and down?

Q3. Are there any precautions I need to take? (oil threads, oil the tube?)

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

Q5. I assume that the order is first the nut, then the plate, then screw in the tube most of the way, then install the buffer pin and hold while screwing, then align the tube, then align the plate and screw the nut. Is this correct?

I intend to assemble the first lower, rotate all the uppers on it with the screw-on lug, and then assemble the second lower and do the same.

How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.



Bottom of this page; ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/



Thanks, that still leaves my first four questions unanswered. (I looked at that page before, and that's where I got the order in question five that I was wondering was correct)
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:08:44 AM EST
there has yet to be a conviction under the original 94ban and you guys are that worried about some non-existant future ban?

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:11:48 AM EST
my preban has been to so many ranges and even on my shoulder while i talked to a game warden... no one ever has asked if it preban or not...

Government like fire is a useful servant but a fearful master.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:12:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 11:12:28 AM EST by rickinvegas]

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.



I am just going to do what the MILLIONS of guys did in 1994 to prove the pre-ban status or their weapons...........NOTHING!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:57:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 1:59:24 PM EST by CleverNickname]

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
Q1. The stock did not come with instructions, and my time in the Corps was prior to the M4s. How does the funny looking fat plate go on? Dimple towards the grip or away?

Q2. How do I make sure the tube is correctly aligned up and down?

Q3. Are there any precautions I need to take? (oil threads, oil the tube?)

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

Q5. I assume that the order is first the nut, then the plate, then screw in the tube most of the way, then install the buffer pin and hold while screwing, then align the tube, then align the plate and screw the nut. Is this correct?



Q1: Dimple goes towards the muzzle. It fits inside the corresponding hole in the backside of the lower receiver.

Q2. If you look at the plate, there's a small piece of metal sticking up. It rides inside the groove on the bottom of the buffer tube.

Q3: Use Moly paste on the buffer tube threads. I also use removable Locktite on the castle nut.

Q4: Tight, but not too tight. :) You did get the M4 stock wrench, right?

Q5: I did it like this:

1. Screw nut onto buffer tube. Place plate on the end of the tube.
2. Put small amount of moly paste around the threads of the buffer tube, and begin to screw it into the receiver.
3. Place the takedown pin spring inthe hole that the plate covers. Continue to screw the buffer tube into the receiver.
4. Put the buffer detent and detent spring in their hole, screw the buffer tube so it covers up approx 1/3 to 1/2 of the detent. (enough to keep it retained in the hole)
5. Still holding the plate on the back, screw the castle nut forward..
6. Put some locktite on the part of the buffer tube threads that the nut will cover.
7. Screw the nut snugly over the threads with the stock wrench.
8. Cock hammer back and push the buffer and buffer spring into the buffer tube.
9. Done.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:36:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
I am getting ready for the 14th. I have a screw on bayonet lug and a RRA 6-pos stock ready to install on each AR in turn.

I have already removed the stock and buffer tube from one of my lowers, and I am ready to go at midnight +1.

Q1. The stock did not come with instructions, and my time in the Corps was prior to the M4s. How does the funny looking fat plate go on? Dimple towards the grip or away?

Q2. How do I make sure the tube is correctly aligned up and down?

Q3. Are there any precautions I need to take? (oil threads, oil the tube?)

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

Q5. I assume that the order is first the nut, then the plate, then screw in the tube most of the way, then install the buffer pin and hold while screwing, then align the tube, then align the plate and screw the nut. Is this correct?

I intend to assemble the first lower, rotate all the uppers on it with the screw-on lug, and then assemble the second lower and do the same.

How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.




If sKerry wins, you won't need to the next ban will likely prohibit Barrels too, so post bans will stand out
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:16:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
I am just going to do what the MILLIONS of guys did in 1994 to prove the pre-ban status or their weapons...........NOTHING!




CHRIST! Thank God there's a few rational posts on this Moronic thread! I was starting to lose faith.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:53:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney.



I am just going to do what the MILLIONS of guys did in 1994 to prove the pre-ban status or their weapons...........NOTHING!



+2

Pretty silly trying to comply with a ban that doesn't exist.

Plus I can always have them ask MarkM. he will verify everything.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:00:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
I'll probably have a Rabbi thread my barrel, and take an add out in the local paper with me and my rifles pictured together.



Me too. Here's me with my carcano and local paper practicing my pose:

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:05:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 5:08:10 AM EST by Belfry_Express]

Originally Posted By imposter:
Take pics, mail it to yourself and do not open. If there is ever a problem, you can open in it court and show the court the postmark.



Registered Mail


course, I am not gonna do jack shit. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, baby!


Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:14:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 5:15:47 AM EST by imposter]

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
course, I am not gonna do jack shit. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, baby!


Some are of the opinion that 'preban' status is in the nature of an affirmative defense; in other words, you have to prove that it is preban by a preponderance of the evidence.

But of course this this new ban is theoretical only at this point.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:17:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By imposter:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
course, I am not gonna do jack shit. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, baby!


Some are of the opinion that 'preban' status is in the nature of an affirmative defense; in other words, you have to prove that it is preban by a preponderance of the evidence.

But of course this this new ban is all theoretical. Why get prepared for it until it is imminent?



Kerry is in favor of a new ban. Bush II is in favor of a new ban. The deomcrat party is in favor of a new ban, the senate (GOP and Dem both) is in favor of a new ban. The only thing that saved us is the house. If we lose 12 seats (by we I mean pro-freedom lovers, not GOP) we will get a new ban. If there is a terror attack during the election cycle we will get a new ban.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:29:18 AM EST
I'm hiring Janet Reno and Diane Feinschwein to do my work.......time/date stamp photo and video documentation by a witch doctor
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:39:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
Kerry is in favor of a new ban. Bush II is in favor of a new ban. The deomcrat party is in favor of a new ban, the senate (GOP and Dem both) is in favor of a new ban. The only thing that saved us is the house. If we lose 12 seats (by we I mean pro-freedom lovers, not GOP) we will get a new ban. If there is a terror attack during the election cycle we will get a new ban.



Do you honestly believe that a new ban would be for cosmetics only things like collapsible stock, baynet lugs and flash suppressors again do you? I believe they will try to ban 'military' style firearms that use 'military/NATO' calibers myself. I don't think they'll just re-write what they did in 1994.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:41:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:

I have a screw on bayonet lug .




WTH is a "screw on bayonet lug"????
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:54:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:

I have a screw on bayonet lug .




WTH is a "screw on bayonet lug"????



It is a lug mounted on what looks like a solid version of a hose clamp. It screws around the barrel for the sole purpose of 'attaching' the lug to the barrel.

It looks like crap in my hand, I think it will look stupid on the gun, but it cheaply meets my goal of having a pre-next ban rifle on the 14th.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:55:25 AM EST
Wait until the 14th.

Then:

Q1. The stock did not come with instructions, and my time in the Corps was prior to the M4s. How does the funny looking fat plate go on? Dimple towards the grip or away?

A1. The dimpled side goes toward the receiver.

Q2. How do I make sure the tube is correctly aligned up and down?

A2. Install and hold down the buffer retainer. Screw the tube in until it covers part of the retainer, and almost touches, but does not drag on the tit of the buffer retainer. Eyeball it to make sure the tube with stock is inline vertically with the receiver.

Q3. Are there any precautions I need to take? (oil threads, oil the tube?)

A3. USE NO OIL OR GREASE on the threads of the receiver or tube. DO oil the buffer retainer.

Once you see how far to screw in the tube (as per A2 above) back off tube 4 or 5 turns, put one drop of SERVICE REMOVABLE (blue or purple) Locktite on the threads of the tube, not inside the receiver (or it may get in the detent). Screw tube back in as per A2 above.

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

A4. Now install the takedown pin, the detent, and spring, push the plate forward to compress the spring, being careful not to kink or crimp the spring. Put a drop of Locktite (blue or purple as per above) on the threads of the tube, and spin the locknut up. Tighten well by hand. The Locktite will do the rest. You don't need to "stake" the nut.

Q5. I assume that the order is first the nut, then the plate, then screw in the tube most of the way, then install the buffer pin and hold while screwing, then align the tube, then align the plate and screw the nut. Is this correct?

A5. The tube comes to you with the plate on the tube, held on by the nut. This is for shipping purposes so the plate is not lost. The plate goes against the receiver, then the nut holds the plate in place and locks the tube.


"How are you guys planning to prove pre-next ban status? I intend to do pictures with a newspaper. I am debating an affidavit by another local attorney"

I intend to do nothing else. There will be NO AWB LAW to have to comply with after the 13th. You don't have to prove compliance or date or whatever with a non-existant law.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:01:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 7:43:31 AM EST by gotm4]

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:

A3. USE NO OIL OR GREASE on the threads of the receiver or tube. DO oil the buffer retainer.

Once you see how far to screw in the tube (as per A2 above) back off tube 4 or 5 turns, put one drop of SERVICE REMOVABLE (blue or purple) Locktite on the threads of the tube, not inside the receiver (or it may get in the detent). Screw tube back in as per A2 above.

Q4. How tight does the nut go?

A4. Now install the takedown pin, the detent, and spring, push the plate forward to compress the spring, being careful not to kink or crimp the spring. Put a drop of Locktite (blue or purple as per above) on the threads of the tube, and spin the locknut up. Tighten well by hand. The Locktite will do the rest. You don't need to "stake" the nut.




Why locktite? The reciever end plate and nut keeps the CAR reciever extension from loosening. I use a little moly grease on carbines I've built and have never had one come loose.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:25:28 AM EST
If and when the ban sunsets, that will be it. No ban, no rules. What ever you have will be eligible to put the evil features on. If they manage somehow to ram an AWB renewal through the house and senate and get it to the president in 5 days, it'll be like it was. If not, they will try to get a new bill through. It'll either be just like the old one, in which case serial numbers will decide pre and post ban, or a totally new bill with new restrictions and possibly confiscations. Time stamp pictures will be a waste of time. You are giving the ATF a lot more credit than they deserve. Fineswine said that no one was charged with violation of the AWB in its entire history. I'm sure that some were charged with violations after they were already arrested for something more serious. Some people have the idea that ATF agents will be everywhere measuring barrels, checking serial numbers, checking welds on flash hiders and taking wood samples for DNA to determine if the wood was harvested here or in a foreign country. I think they have better things to do. As it sits right now, I'm counting on the house to put an end to this nonsense so we can concern ourselves with more important matters. I believe that if a new bill goes through, serial numbers won't matter because they'll be coming after them. It also looks to me like they will have the 13th to work on a new bill, as it's the last day of the 10-year period. We'll see.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 7:52:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By rn45:
If and when the ban sunsets, that will be it. No ban, no rules. What ever you have will be eligible to put the evil features on. If they manage somehow to ram an AWB renewal through the house and senate and get it to the president in 5 days, it'll be like it was. If not, they will try to get a new bill through. It'll either be just like the old one, in which case serial numbers will decide pre and post ban, or a totally new bill with new restrictions and possibly confiscations. Time stamp pictures will be a waste of time. You are giving the ATF a lot more credit than they deserve. Fineswine said that no one was charged with violation of the AWB in its entire history. I'm sure that some were charged with violations after they were already arrested for something more serious. Some people have the idea that ATF agents will be everywhere measuring barrels, checking serial numbers, checking welds on flash hiders and taking wood samples for DNA to determine if the wood was harvested here or in a foreign country. I think they have better things to do. As it sits right now, I'm counting on the house to put an end to this nonsense so we can concern ourselves with more important matters. I believe that if a new bill goes through, serial numbers won't matter because they'll be coming after them. It also looks to me like they will have the 13th to work on a new bill, as it's the last day of the 10-year period. We'll see.



Well said!
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 7:56:15 AM EST
gotm4: "Why locktite? The receiver end plate and nut keeps the CAR reciever extension from loosening. I use a little moly grease on carbines I've built and have never had one come loose."

A blow to the side of the but can unscrew the tube and nut. No grease, because Locktite will not stick to grease and oil.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:02:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
Kerry is in favor of a new ban. Bush II is in favor of a new ban. The deomcrat party is in favor of a new ban, the senate (GOP and Dem both) is in favor of a new ban. The only thing that saved us is the house. If we lose 12 seats (by we I mean pro-freedom lovers, not GOP) we will get a new ban. If there is a terror attack during the election cycle we will get a new ban.



Quote? Link?

I know a lot has ben made about his apparent (won't argue the point again here because it has been ) support of the current AWB, but where/when did GWB say anything in support of a "new ban."

Please understand: I'm not saying I'm 100% sure it hasn't happened, but I am completely unaware of it and understandably skeptical until I see a source.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:17:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
A blow to the side of the but can unscrew the tube and nut. No grease, because Locktite will not stick to grease and oil.



All my receiver end plates have a 3/8" or so concave part that goes into a hole machined into the receiver near the selector spring and detent below the threaded part of the receiver (for the extension) I don't see how the receiver extension could spin past this point without the nut being VERY loose, if the nut were that loose your selector would no longer work because there would be no spring and detent pressure on it. I've assembled about 30 or so lowers with CAR stocks for me and other people since 1987 and have yet to have one loosen on its own while using moly grease on the threads and not staking them. Possible I guess just not probable. If you grease the extension and torque the CAR stock nut to the TM specs of 40 in lbs it'll stay tight. It's on page 200.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:19:32 PM EST
BTT

I still would like to know
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:57:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 8:23:55 AM EST by HardShell]

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
BTT

I still would like to know




I would still like an answer to my legitimate question above. No flame, I just want to know if you were exaggerating for effect or if you know of some comment from the President (about which I am unaware) regarding a second/new AWB. Nothing personal - it just needs clarification IMHO.


ETA: The two old articles below have been here on Arfcom, and most here will acknowledge that it is at least possible that the Bush camp was "playing politics" with that comment. (Your second article even suggests that.) Regardless, unless I am mistaken both articles refer to renewal of the existing AWB - neither one mentions a new AWB, nor does either one support in any way your assertion above regarding the President's support of a new AWB after this one "sunsets."
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:04:01 AM EST

Bush Favors Extending Assault-Weapons Ban
4/16/2003



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The Bush administration said it supports renewing the federal assault-weapons ban, despite a push by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to let it expire, the Salt Lake Tribune reported April 12.

"The president supports the current law, and he supports reauthorization of the current law," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

The announcement came as a surprise to those on both sides of the gun debate, especially since the NRA has made eliminating the ban a top priority.

"That's lousy politics," said Grover Norquist, an NRA board member who heads the conservative group Americans for Tax Reform.

Joe Sudbay of the Violence Policy Center said the president's pledge to renew the ban "creates a huge problem for Bush with the NRA."

"The NRA said they would be working out of the Oval Office when Bush was elected. This creates an interesting situation for them," he said.

Matt Bennett of Americans for Gun Safety said Bush's endorsement isn't enough. He must press Congress to renew the measure. Not doing so would cause the ban to expire, Bennett said.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA, agreed that the issue would "ultimately be decided by the Congress."


Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:06:42 AM EST

Bush holds key to assault weapon ban

Sunday, May 25, 2003

By Karen MacPherson, Post-Gazette National Bureau

WASHINGTON -- Lawmakers and lobbyists are beginning to battle over whether Congress should continue the ban on 19 types of military-style assault weapons when it expires in September 2004, two months before the presidential and congressional elections.




Online Graphic: Assault weapons banned



Both sides agree on one thing: the outcome likely depends on President Bush.

Bush recently reiterated his support for extending the assault weapons ban -- just about the only gun-control measure he favors -- but the president hasn't said whether he would back the permanent extension sought by gun-control advocates.

Bush also hasn't indicated whether he will really work to extend the ban, which is considered crucial to winning approval from the Republican-controlled Congress. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., a chief sponsor of the 1994 law, says, "The bottom line is that if the president wants this bill to become law, it will."

Bush's refusal so far to invest any political capital on the issue has both sides complaining that the president is trying to have it both ways. By stating his support for the extension, Bush appeases gun-control supporters. By essentially leaving it up to Congress, where it will likely die, he avoids jeopardizing his support among gun-rights advocates.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer has been decidedly stand-offish: "This is a matter that the House has to work out, of course, by listening to the will of its members, but the president's position is clear on it."

Top White House political aide Karl Rove recently told gun-rights activists in New Hampshire that the president will never have to address the issue because there aren't enough votes in Congress to pass the extension.

Such tepid signals of support from the White House opened the way for a rare public rift between the top two House Republicans. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, a strong opponent of the ban, told reporters he didn't plan to bring up the extension for a vote and would let the ban expire, contending that "the votes in the House are not there."

DeLay's remarks enraged gun-control advocates and prompted House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., to emphasize several days later that no final decision has been made on scheduling a vote for the extension. "I need to have some discussions with the president and [Republican] leadership before I make that decision," Hastert said.

In the meantime, Bush's publicly stated support for extending the ban on assault weapons has strained his relations with such guns-rights groups as the politically powerful National Rifle Association, who are among his staunchest supporters and largest campaign contributors.

The battle over the ban, which cuts across party lines, also has split Democratic gun-control advocates into two camps -- those who would like to toughen the current ban by closing loopholes and prohibiting more weapons versus those who believe they'd be lucky to get Congress to merely renew the current law.

The debate takes place in a political landscape colored by the coming elections and by legislative history.

Some Democrats, including gun-rights supporter Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., blame passage of the original assault weapons ban in 1994 for the party's losing control of the House that year. Others contend the gun issue was just one of several issues that contributed to the Democrats' 1994 downfall, including opposition to then-President Clinton's ambitious healthcare reform plan.

In addition, a number of Democrats believe former Vice President Al Gore's support for gun-control legislation cost him key states in the 2000 presidential election, including West Virginia. Gore cast the tie-breaking vote in 1999 when the Senate approved legislation that restricted sales at gun shows and required safety devices to be sold with guns.

It's unclear how much of an issue extending the assault weapons ban could be in the 2004 presidential or congressional elections.

In Western Pennsylvania, Rep. Mike Doyle, D-Swissvale, supports an extension, Rep. Melissa Hart, R-Bradford Woods, opposes it, and other members of Congress either didn't return calls asking for their position or say they are reviewing the issue.

Sen. Rick Santorum, who voted against the ban as a House member in 1994, opposes an extension, calling it "feel-good legislation" that doesn't have real effect.

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., facing a primary battle from the conservative wing of GOP in Rep. Pat Toomey, "is currently reviewing all aspects of the assault weapons ban," said his spokesman Bill Reynolds. Specter voted for the ban in 1994.

The effort to extend the assault weapons ban is one of two gun-related issues currently percolating in Congress. The House recently voted to protect gun manufacturers from lawsuits brought by victims of shootings. The bill now goes to the Senate, where it has 52 co-sponsors but faces a filibuster.

The 1994 law prohibited the manufacture of 19 assault weapons while providing clear legal authority for the sale of 670 hunting and other recreational rifles. Supporters say the ban has lowered the percentage of assault weapons used in crimes, while opponents dispute that finding and the ban's overall effectiveness.

The NRA vehemently opposes extending the ban, contending it doesn't prevent violent crime but does infringe the rights of law-abiding gun owners. "We don't see any logic or reason to continue the ban," said NRA spokesperson Kelly Whitley.

Gun Owners of America contends White House officials "are trying to please both sides and are playing a very dangerous game." In an effort to pressure Bush to oppose the extension, the organization has launched a lobbying campaign, urging its members to email or call the White House.

Democrats are going ahead with efforts to try to extend the ban permanently. Schumer and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., recently introduced legislation that would renew the ban and also prohibit the importation of large-capacity ammunition clips.

"Does this bill have a snowball's chance in Hades of going anywhere? It's going to be a hard-fought effort, but we think it does. And we're counting on some help from an ally who lives on Pennsylvania Avenue," Schumer said. "We hope the president will not just say he supports the ban but help get it passed. This will be a good measure of the compassion in his compassionate conservatism."

Reps. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., and John Conyers, D-Mich., want Congress to go even further. They have introduced legislation that would permanently extend the ban on the 19 assault weapons and add a number of others to the list.

Gun-control advocates say the tougher bill is needed because many gun manufacturers have skirted the assault weapons ban by slightly modifying some of the prohibited weapons.

But Feinstein says the tougher bill will never pass, and worries that it will jeopardize the chances of her legislation gaining approval by splitting gun-control supporters in Congress. Feinstein said banning the import of large-capacity ammunition clips, which her bill would do, would fill the main loophole in the 1994 law.


Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:07:29 AM EST

Surprise: Bush Bucks NRA
Backs Assault Weapons Ban
By Shannon McCaffrey
Knight Ridder Newspapers
4-12-3

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration is bucking the National Rifle Association and supporting a renewal of the assault weapons ban, set to expire just before the presidential election.

"The president supports the current law, and he supports reauthorization of the current law," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Tossing out the ban on semiautomatic weapons is a top priority for the NRA. President Bush said during his presidential campaign that he supported the current ban, but it was less clear whether he would support an extension.

The White House comment comes just before the NRA's annual convention and as the gun debate overall shows signs of fresh life after several years of near hibernation.

Republicans now control the House and the Senate and are using their newfound power to breathe life into the stalled pro-gun rights agenda. This week, they pushed through a bill in the House to give gunmakers and dealers sweeping immunity from lawsuits.

The assault weapons ban is considered a crown jewel by the gun-control movement, and even though its expiration is more than a year away it is already being watched closely.

Attorney General John Ashcroft, who like Bush is a staunch gun-rights supporter, muddied the waters in a recent appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee when he refused to say whether the administration supports an extension. Ashcroft cited a 1999 Justice Department report that said the ban's impact on deadly gun violence is unclear.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., will introduce a bill in the coming weeks to reauthorize the assault-weapons ban.

The White House announcement surprised those on both sides of the gun issue. "That's lousy politics," said Grover Norquist, an NRA board member who leads the conservative pro-Bush group Americans for Tax Reform.

Joe Sudbay of the Violence Policy Center said it "creates a huge problem for Bush" with the NRA. "The NRA said they would be working out of the Oval Office when Bush was elected. This creates an interesting situation for them," he said.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA, said Bush's support was somewhat irrelevant. "Ultimately, I think this issue is going to be decided by the Congress," LaPierre said.

If it is, the NRA has reason to be optimistic. This week's action on the immunity legislation for dealers and gunmakers reflects the interest of Republicans to resurrect the pro-gun rights agenda.

Congress had been poised to act on the bill last fall, but the deadly sniper attacks in the Washington area prompted a delay. The measure has enough co-sponsors in the Senate to pass that chamber unless Democrats dig in their heels and filibuster.

Supporters of the immunity bill say it shields gunmakers from bankruptcy because of frivolous lawsuits that became popular during the Clinton administration.

Lawsuits filed by cities against gun manufacturers -- modeled on similar litigation against the tobacco industry -- have so far been unsuccessful but have kept gunmakers tied up in court.

Gun control advocates say the immunity bill will keep innocent victims of gun violence from getting their day in court. The gun industry would become the first to receive blanket immunity protections if the bill succeeds.



Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:09:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
I'll probably have a Rabbi thread my barrel, and take an add out in the local paper with me and my rifles pictured together.

[rolf2]
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:12:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 6:15:56 AM EST by scrum]
Deleted
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 11:05:23 AM EST
Okay, looks like this one is going to be tight. The libs are pulling all the stops out. We may only have a day or two to de-clinton our guns.
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