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Posted: 3/5/2006 7:02:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 7:23:32 AM EDT by PeteCO]
I see this justification used a LOT these days, and there is never any outcry against it. Below, is a summary of what I sent to the editor, written in a slightly polished manner, of course.



Make seat-belt use a primary law in state
Saving lives, cost to society worth change in enforcement

Colorado should join 24 other states in making its seat belt requirement a primary law.

Currently, Colorado's seat-belt law is a secondary offense, meaning law officers have to have another reason, such as speeding or reckless driving, to pull over drivers before citing for noncompliance on seat-belts.

House Bill 1125, which would bump up the seat-belt compliance law, makes sense on practical and emotional levels.



"Emotional levels?" What the fuck does that mean? Do we now govern on "emotion?" Alas, such is the way of the so-called professional journalist these days: let's insert words that sound good, even if we could never articulate what they mean.


It's a pretty simple equation: seat belts save lives. Seat-belt usage is expected to increase 11 percent to 14 percent and an additional 51 lives would be saved annually with a primary offense, according to statistics provided by the Colorado Department of Transportation and the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment.

The concern hits home statewide and locally. Seat-belt usage among 16- to 20-year-olds in Larimer County is lower than in any of its Front Range peers, according to a Colorado State University report.

In a grim connection, 10 people in that age group died in Larimer County last year in vehicle crashes - more than in any other county in Colorado. Six of those who died were not buckled in.

Statewide, seat-belt usage had been on the upswing until last year.

Usage had climbed to 79.3 percent in Colorado, until it dropped to 79.2 percent last year, alarming health and safety officials who believe a primary offense is the best deterrent after more than a decade of buckle up campaigns.

And seat-belt usage more than doubles an individual's chance of surviving a serious crash, according to www.buckleupColorado.org.

Those looking to the practical side of why a primary offense is needed will find plenty of support.

For one, the legislation does not contain a fiscal note, meaning that the state does not expect the change to require additional revenue to enforce. The Colorado State Patrol will not add state troopers or programs to enforce the law. The primary offense is not intended to generate revenue, but to save lives, said Maj. James M. Wolfinbarger, of the CSP.



And after all this tripe, I still don't fucking care. What was written is no more a justification that saying that we should outlaw dirty language. News flash: It is NOT the role of any government to play nanny to the citizenry! When will you fucking idiots finally get that point?


In a state hobbled by budget concerns fueled by rising Medicaid costs, a primary seat-belt law is expected to save taxpayers $25.9 million in the first five years and $72.6 million in a decade - in Medicaid costs alone.

The estimated economic cost to society for each crash fatality is $977,000, with more than 80 percent attributed to lost workplace and household productivity. Each critically injured survivor costs an average $1.1 million (www.buckleupColorado.org). And the cost of paying insurance claims for the crashes is passed on to other residents.



Ah, I should have seen it coming - the New Socialism™. Anything and everything we want to legislate against, we simply attach a societal cost to. What about rock climbing in Colorado? Do you know how many rock climbers fall each year in this state? What about the search and rescue dollars spent? Nope folks, rock climbing simply has too high a "societal cost". We must outlaw it. Oh, and let's get rid of those pesky motorcycles while we are at it. After all, a motorcycle rider in an accident is far more likely to be injured, adding to the "societal cost". On and on we go - let's ban private pilots, those evil little planes crash far too often, and so on. Of course this type of thinking leads us also to a familiar place: looking at the "societal cost" of gun ownership. Do we really need those horrible machines of death running loose in the streets? It's not just a freedom issue mind you - think of the "societal cost".

Another news flash, jackass: freedom isn't free.


Some Colorado residents say such a law removes their freedom to choose. Wearing a seat belt remains an individual choice, but it comes with a large societal cost. And now it should come with a ticket.

Originally published March 5, 2006



And what's giving up a little freedom so we can enjoy lower taxes the government can redirect those funds into MORE bullshit inefficient wastes of tax dollars?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:38:35 AM EDT
They did this last year in Florida. The primary law covers the driver and passengers under 18 for which the driver could also be ticketed.

I was reading about a Florida Highway Patrol trooper not to long ago(might have been trooper of the year or something). In his statistics it listed around 1,500 seat belt violations written in the last year. It is now a $77.50 fine for not wearing a seat belt so that means this guy generated about $116,000 for the state last year just off of seat belt tickets. Say the average trooper writes half that many and they have 1000 troopers actually out working traffic. That works out to about $58,000,000 every year for just seat belt violations. Safety, yeah right.


I'm sure nice little side effects like that never factor into these types of laws. At least they got rid of the motorcycle helmet law but I think the seat belt violation is too big a cash cow these days.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:47:22 AM EDT

It is now a $77.50 fine...

$77.50 is bad, but I'm much more worried about the violation of rights. Any cop any time can claim he couldn't see your seatbelt and stop you without cause. That's the real problem with these type of laws.z
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:50:02 AM EDT
Sounds like it's a pain in the butt.

However, I believe that, on the roads, there MUST be rules, and we must all abide by them. On the road is probably the ONLY place where most of us interact with many other people. Our behaviour and other people's behavior can be directly harmful or even deadly to other people on the road.

Sure, I really don't care if you don't want to, and don't, wear your seatbelt. I just hope you don't make a huge mess when you taste-test your windshield and pull a Superman.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:51:09 AM EDT
As usual, they claimed it would never be made a primary offense. And these scumbags look at us like we are growing horns when we say we don't trust them NOT to confiscate guns after registration. I'd sooner slice their bellies open with a feces-covered knife.

And for the record, I wear my seatbelt all the time - because I choose to.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:07:03 AM EDT
We have seatbelt laws here too, hell its a moving violation to not be wearing your seatbelt.

I believe its all about the money. They can make a ton of money on it and healthcare for a person that is in an accident and wearing a safety belt is usually cheaper.

For contrast we also have no helmet laws because I am sure they looked into it and its cheaper for a motorcyclist to be killed than to be all messed up and live due to the helmet.

Follow the money, safety my ass.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:10:06 AM EDT
For the record, seatbelts do not only improve the safety of the wearer, but also the safety of everyone else in the car and everyone else on the road within crashing distance.

The why is simple; in a crash, an unbelted passenger becomes a projectile that may harm the other occupants of the car, or may be ejected. Remember the video of the guy who is ejected from the flipping Ford Explorer and lands in the oncoming lanes of the highway? He was safely (for the other driver anyway) run over and mashed, but he could easily have ended up in someone's windshield, or caused damage to a suspension part and caused the car to go out of control.

An unbelted driver also has a much lower chance of recovering his vehicle, because he is being tossed around and must use his limbs to steady himself in his seat, reducing his ability to manipulate the controls. He will also have a reduced sense of what the car is doing, since it is moving independently of him.



Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:14:54 AM EDT
Like a lot of other things.

Driven by the insurance companies.

GM
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:17:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
As usual, they claimed it would never be made a primary offense. And these scumbags look at us like we are growing horns when we say we don't trust them NOT to confiscate guns after registration. I'd sooner slice their bellies open with a feces-covered knife.

And for the record, I wear my seatbelt all the time - because I choose to.



Same thing in TN... said it would never be a primary offense, they lied... we now even have seatbelt checkpoints.

Not really new this reasoning has been used to push through laws for decades.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:20:07 AM EDT
Welcome citizen.

Please comply with the rules.

Failure to comply is a crime.

Indoctrination begins........now.



BC
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:22:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
For the record, seatbelts do not only improve the safety of the wearer, but also the safety of everyone else in the car and everyone else on the road within crashing distance.

The why is simple; in a crash, an unbelted passenger becomes a projectile that may harm the other occupants of the car, or may be ejected. Remember the video of the guy who is ejected from the flipping Ford Explorer and lands in the oncoming lanes of the highway? He was safely (for the other driver anyway) run over and mashed, but he could easily have ended up in someone's windshield, or caused damage to a suspension part and caused the car to go out of control.

An unbelted driver also has a much lower chance of recovering his vehicle, because he is being tossed around and must use his limbs to steady himself in his seat, reducing his ability to manipulate the controls. He will also have a reduced sense of what the car is doing, since it is moving independently of him.




And he makes this choice for himself.

I wear my seatbelt. Others do not.

I do not care about them.

Fuck seatbelt laws. I want the cops that I am paying for looking for actual harmful driving behaviour, not people whom they think are not wearing seatbelts. Because let's face it. A cop who pulls you over for 'not wearing your seatbelt' is doing nothing more than automatically winning a game of he-said, she-said. How does one prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you were not wearing your seatbelt, while driving down the road in a moving vehicle, to which the officer was a poor witness at best?

Beyond all this shit, it's a money game. Plain and simple. The government wants cops to write tickets and make money for them.

If they were really out to save you money through Medicaid spending cuts, thenthey would pass a different law:

You fuck up and aren't wearing your seatbelt, too bad. No socialised healthcare for you. You choose to endanger yourself and others, we leave you where you lie. We'll provide you the courtesy of a body bag and a toe tag, and nothing more. You'd better pray you have your own insurance to cover anything else.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:22:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Sounds like it's a pain in the butt.

However, I believe that, on the roads, there MUST be rules, and we must all abide by them. On the road is probably the ONLY place where most of us interact with many other people. Our behaviour and other people's behavior can be directly harmful or even deadly to other people on the road.

Sure, I really don't care if you don't want to, and don't, wear your seatbelt. I just hope you don't make a huge mess when you taste-test your windshield and pull a Superman.



How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:23:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:26:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Sounds like it's a pain in the butt.

However, I believe that, on the roads, there MUST be rules, and we must all abide by them. On the road is probably the ONLY place where most of us interact with many other people. Our behaviour and other people's behavior can be directly harmful or even deadly to other people on the road.

Sure, I really don't care if you don't want to, and don't, wear your seatbelt. I just hope you don't make a huge mess when you taste-test your windshield and pull a Superman.



How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



See the above post by another poster. Controlling a vehicle to the best of your ability during an accident is much more difficult when not strapped in. You're fighting to control the vehicle and hold yourself in place against multiple g-forces with only your arms.

If you fly out, you become a projectile that can hit other vehicles, or cause others to go off the road trying to avoid your broken body. You can even be a projectile within your own vehicle, ending up hitting passengers or even flying into the backseat with others.

Those are your answers.

They still do not justify the nanny state.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:29:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I refuse to write seatbelt tickets because I think they are un Constitutional.



Really? That is cool of you.

Do you know what it costs now? I know it used to be about $10-12 in the late '90s when it wasn't a moving violation.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:32:22 AM EDT
I wear my seatbelt because I worked for 10 years at a plant that makes airbag inflators--you do NOT want to contact that bag unrestrained. It should not, however, be illegal to be stupid. In fact, stupidity should be encouraged and televised.

I wear a helmet on my motorcycle as well--45 doesn't seem all that fast until you lowside your bike and the asphalt is streaming past your visor 2 inches away--then 45 is like warp speed from Spaceballs...
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:34:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.

I think anyone who doesn't want to wear seatbelts should be allowed to, with the understanding that they have to sign a waiver that denies them any state paid services as a result of their accident. They'd also need to add an exclusion to their insurance policies such that their own injuries are not covered if they are injured while not wearing a seatbelt.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:35:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 8:37:07 AM EDT by CLIP67]

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I refuse to write seatbelt tickets because I think they are un Constitutional.



Ditto. I'm a former LEO and I had never wrote someone for a seatbelt violation in the years I worked. Thank God its still a secondary violation in PA.

That being said, I always wear my belt, as well as a helmet on my motorcycle.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:36:01 AM EDT
Such a tremendous waste, all these laws there for this and that... No Smoking - Societal Cost. No Drugs - Societal Cost. No Seatbelt - Societal Cost. No Guns - Societal Cost...

It is getting to the point where our only hope of saving Social Security in it's present form will be lost. How about the Societal Cost of all the old farts leeching off the system when they otherwise would have killed themselves due to stupidity years before?

I know I am being glib.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:39:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I refuse to write seatbelt tickets because I think they are un Constitutional.




There's one of the good guys right there....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:39:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:
Welcome citizen.

Please comply with the rules.

Failure to comply is a crime.

Indoctrination begins........now.



BC





What he said....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:41:07 AM EDT


If you wanna not wear a selt belt in order to "stick it to the man", be my guest. Be sure to tell them that as the scrape you face out of the windshield, or worse.

I guess you don't think there should be a law to turn on your headlights in fog or rain either. Now, you are affecting more than just yourself.

The seatbelt law should not be a law. However, anyone who chooses not to wear one for any reason is not very smart. A lot of the same ones who choose not to wear a seatbelt or helmet are the same one ranting that smokers and overweight people drive their insurance rates and tax rates up, the same ones who don't think the government should take care of smokers or overweight people, yet don't seem to have a problem with the same thing when it comes to their choice not to wear a helmet or seatbelt. Oh well.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:42:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chvylvr350:
We have seatbelt laws here too, hell its a moving violation to not be wearing your seatbelt.

I believe its all about the money. They can make a ton of money on it and healthcare for a person that is in an accident and wearing a safety belt is usually cheaper.

For contrast we also have no helmet laws because I am sure they looked into it and its cheaper for a motorcyclist to be killed than to be all messed up and live due to the helmet.

Follow the money, safety my ass.




Again, there should be no law, but there is a simple way to kill the cash cow..............wear your damn seatbelts. Not only do you not get a ticket, you are also doing yourself a favor.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:43:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.

I think anyone who doesn't want to wear seatbelts should be allowed to, with the understanding that they have to sign a waiver that denies them any state paid services as a result of their accident. They'd also need to add an exclusion to their insurance policies such that their own injuries are not covered if they are injured while not wearing a seatbelt.





You know, the same mentality *could* be used to combat smoking or being overweight - BOTH of which cost society FAR more $$$ than a lack of seatbelt use does...

Think about that can of worms for a moment before you make such a statement...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:43:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 8:44:15 AM EDT by warlord]
Here in the the Peoples' Republik of Kalifornia, it is moving violation for seat belt law violation. But I personally agree with it overall because most of the drivers I see out on the roads are plain "stupid" for the lack any other description. Most of us on this board are shooters, and we are used to personal protection equipment such as ears and eye protection, and maybe even a ball cap, but most of the sheeple are not. The seat belt laws are "aimed at"(punned intended) and written for 99.9% of the sheeple. True, I grew up an age where wearing a selt belt is optional, but wearing a belt can increase your chances of surviving, though not guranteeing that you will survive in case of a collision.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:44:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
For the record, seatbelts do not only improve the safety of the wearer, but also the safety of everyone else in the car and everyone else on the road within crashing distance.

The why is simple; in a crash, an unbelted passenger becomes a projectile that may harm the other occupants of the car, or may be ejected. Remember the video of the guy who is ejected from the flipping Ford Explorer and lands in the oncoming lanes of the highway? He was safely (for the other driver anyway) run over and mashed, but he could easily have ended up in someone's windshield, or caused damage to a suspension part and caused the car to go out of control.

An unbelted driver also has a much lower chance of recovering his vehicle, because he is being tossed around and must use his limbs to steady himself in his seat, reducing his ability to manipulate the controls. He will also have a reduced sense of what the car is doing, since it is moving independently of him.






Don't try to interject common sense into this rant.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:45:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Sounds like it's a pain in the butt.

However, I believe that, on the roads, there MUST be rules, and we must all abide by them. On the road is probably the ONLY place where most of us interact with many other people. Our behaviour and other people's behavior can be directly harmful or even deadly to other people on the road.

Sure, I really don't care if you don't want to, and don't, wear your seatbelt. I just hope you don't make a huge mess when you taste-test your windshield and pull a Superman.



How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



See TheSneak's post.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:45:36 AM EDT
I'm confused... what makes a primary law primary?

I do wear my seatbelt. All the time, unless I need to reach far in the back to get something. But I don't do that on the extremely rare occasion that I'm driving.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:46:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.

I think anyone who doesn't want to wear seatbelts should be allowed to, with the understanding that they have to sign a waiver that denies them any state paid services as a result of their accident. They'd also need to add an exclusion to their insurance policies such that their own injuries are not covered if they are injured while not wearing a seatbelt.




So you favor mandatory health insurance? Whats the difference if I slip on a banana peel w/o health insurance?

Good grief, comrade.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:50:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Sounds like it's a pain in the butt.

However, I believe that, on the roads, there MUST be rules, and we must all abide by them. On the road is probably the ONLY place where most of us interact with many other people. Our behaviour and other people's behavior can be directly harmful or even deadly to other people on the road.

Sure, I really don't care if you don't want to, and don't, wear your seatbelt. I just hope you don't make a huge mess when you taste-test your windshield and pull a Superman.



How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



See TheSneak's post.



As for the control of the vehicle aspect, I can kinda see that. I don't know if its true or not, but I'll buy it.

As for the "projectile" part, has this ever happened? Has anyone in another vehicle ever been killed by the flying body from the unbelted passenger of a different car? Seems unlikely to me.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:53:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.




I love cicular logic.

I hope you aren't a smoker (lung cancer & emphysema) or a drinker (alcholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, cirrhosis of the liver) - because both activities increase the cost of MY healthcare premiums, and in the case of alcohol, my car insurance premiums due to drunk drivers.

I hope you aren't fat. Fat people have all kinds of health problems I don't want to pay for. I hope you don't eat unhealthy foods. Fat people who eat unhealthy foods who sue places like McDonalds for making them Fat and Unhealthy increase the cost of my Big Mac.

I hope you aren't old, or at least plan to die young. Old people have all kinds of horrendously expensive health problems... making MY health premiums go up.

I hope you don't drive a gas-guzzling SUV, because you're contributing to greenhouse gasses, which in turn makes the .gov slap a gas-guzzler tax on MY gas-guzzling SUV. Not only that, but your gas-guzzling SUV is hoggin' the gas I need for MY gas-guzzling SUV, thereby driving the price that I have to pay up.


FWIW, I don't write seatbelt tickets either.


BC
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:58:47 AM EDT
First, I wear my seatbelt for MY protection. Just to get that out of the way.

My objection to the seatbelt laws is this... when they were first passed the seat belt law was a secondary offense. Only ticketable if stopped for another reason. This was the objection of most people that were against it, it would be used just to stop people with no other justification.

The law was written this way to prevent seatbelt enforcement from being used as a fishing expedition. It was promised that it would never be made a primary offense. Then a few years later. BAM!, it is a primary offense.

"I stopped you because you appeared to not be wearing a seatbelt. Do you mind if I search your car? If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to hide, do you?"
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:59:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:01:17 AM EDT by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Sounds like it's a pain in the butt.

However, I believe that, on the roads, there MUST be rules, and we must all abide by them. On the road is probably the ONLY place where most of us interact with many other people. Our behaviour and other people's behavior can be directly harmful or even deadly to other people on the road.

Sure, I really don't care if you don't want to, and don't, wear your seatbelt. I just hope you don't make a huge mess when you taste-test your windshield and pull a Superman.



How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



See TheSneak's post.



As for the control of the vehicle aspect, I can kinda see that. I don't know if its true or not, but I'll buy it.

As for the "projectile" part, has this ever happened? Has anyone in another vehicle ever been killed by the flying body from the unbelted passenger of a different car? Seems unlikely to me.



I don't know about from another vehicle, but there are plenty of cases where the rear seat passenger flew forward killing a belted person in the front seat. There was a case recently where children were ejected from an SUV on a bridge onto the roadway below. I don't recall if they actually injured someone, but seat belts could have spared not only the children's lives, but the trauma of those below who wound up hitting those kids.

As for the control issue, I can attest to that personally. Once, going through Jackson, MS there was a huge drop in the road that I believe had I not been belted in, would have resulted in a loss of control of the vehicle. Another time, I had to take such violent evasive moves to avoid an idiot on the wrong side of the road that I would have not been able to stay in my seat had I not been belted in.

There is no legitimate argument for not wearing seat belts and I can't understand those that even try to do so or those who will not wear them. There is always some cock and bull story about "uncle bob woulda been killed" had he been wearing his seat belt.

There might be a less than 1 percent chance of something like that. I'll take the 99 percent chance that it saves me.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:00:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.




I love cicular logic.

I hope you aren't a smoker (lung cancer & emphysema) or a drinker (alcholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, cirrhosis of the liver) - because both activities increase the cost of MY healthcare premiums, and in the case of alcohol, my car insurance premiums due to drunk drivers.

I hope you aren't fat. Fat people have all kinds of health problems I don't want to pay for. I hope you don't eat unhealthy foods. Fat people who eat unhealthy foods who sue places like McDonalds for making them Fat and Unhealthy increase the cost of my Big Mac.

I hope you aren't old, or at least plan to die young. Old people have all kinds of horrendously expensive health problems... making MY health premiums go up.

I hope you don't drive a gas-guzzling SUV, because you're contributing to greenhouse gasses, which in turn makes the .gov slap a gas-guzzler tax on MY gas-guzzling SUV. Not only that, but your gas-guzzling SUV is hoggin' the gas I need for MY gas-guzzling SUV, thereby driving the price that I have to pay up.


FWIW, I don't write seatbelt tickets either.


BC




BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:03:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:10:24 AM EDT by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.




I love cicular logic.

I hope you aren't a smoker (lung cancer & emphysema) or a drinker (alcholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, cirrhosis of the liver) - because both activities increase the cost of MY healthcare premiums, and in the case of alcohol, my car insurance premiums due to drunk drivers.

I hope you aren't fat. Fat people have all kinds of health problems I don't want to pay for. I hope you don't eat unhealthy foods. Fat people who eat unhealthy foods who sue places like McDonalds for making them Fat and Unhealthy increase the cost of my Big Mac.

I hope you aren't old, or at least plan to die young. Old people have all kinds of horrendously expensive health problems... making MY health premiums go up.

I hope you don't drive a gas-guzzling SUV, because you're contributing to greenhouse gasses, which in turn makes the .gov slap a gas-guzzler tax on MY gas-guzzling SUV. Not only that, but your gas-guzzling SUV is hoggin' the gas I need for MY gas-guzzling SUV, thereby driving the price that I have to pay up.


FWIW, I don't write seatbelt tickets either.


BC




BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...



- georgestrings



Fuck off. I have always said there should be no law. What I have said is that those who choose not to wear a seat belt for any reason are idiots.

Try reading comprehension.

Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business.

I don't recall you ever asking, so I am gonna call bullshit on that. However, whether you have asked before or not, the answer is the same. I won't even argue that those things are dumb. That does not change the fact that those who choose not to wear seatbelts are dumb as well.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:11:41 AM EDT
I wear seatbelts.

I do not think government has any business telling you to wear them.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:13:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...

- georgestrings




Originally Posted By LarryG:

The seatbelt law should not be a law. However, anyone who chooses not to wear one for any reason is not very smart. A lot of the same ones who choose not to wear a seatbelt or helmet are the same one ranting that smokers and overweight people drive their insurance rates and tax rates up, the same ones who don't think the government should take care of smokers or overweight people, yet don't seem to have a problem with the same thing when it comes to their choice not to wear a helmet or seatbelt. Oh well.



I think you and Larry are on the same side of the argument....unless I'm reading his post wrong.

Actually, I didn't read his posts...went back to see what you were talking about...and Larry's stuff seems to sorta mirror...well, EXACTLY mirror what I said in mine. I think signals got crossed somewhere.

Another FWIW....I wear my seat-belt/helmet ALL the time and I think you're a freakin moron if you don't wear it.

And yes, un-restrained occupants do become projectiles, even in low speed collisions.

It may not sound like much, but try this on for size. Stand still and let me throw a 160lb bag of bricks at you...at 35 MPH. This is why I insist if you're riding in my vehicle, you're wearing a seatbelt. If you don't wanna wear it.....get out.

Anyhow....I have all kinds of strange ideas about govenment and what it should and should not be telling us we can do.


BC
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:13:52 AM EDT
Expect to see an attempt in the future to outlaw guns due to the cost to the government-provided healthcare system in this country.

You heard it here first.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:14:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.




I love cicular logic.

I hope you aren't a smoker (lung cancer & emphysema) or a drinker (alcholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, cirrhosis of the liver) - because both activities increase the cost of MY healthcare premiums, and in the case of alcohol, my car insurance premiums due to drunk drivers.

I hope you aren't fat. Fat people have all kinds of health problems I don't want to pay for. I hope you don't eat unhealthy foods. Fat people who eat unhealthy foods who sue places like McDonalds for making them Fat and Unhealthy increase the cost of my Big Mac.

I hope you aren't old, or at least plan to die young. Old people have all kinds of horrendously expensive health problems... making MY health premiums go up.

I hope you don't drive a gas-guzzling SUV, because you're contributing to greenhouse gasses, which in turn makes the .gov slap a gas-guzzler tax on MY gas-guzzling SUV. Not only that, but your gas-guzzling SUV is hoggin' the gas I need for MY gas-guzzling SUV, thereby driving the price that I have to pay up.


FWIW, I don't write seatbelt tickets either.


BC




BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...



- georgestrings



Fuck off. I have always said there should be no law. What I have said is that those who choose not to wear a seat belt for any reason are idiots.

Try reading comprehension.

Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business.




Now, now Larry - don't get your knickers in a knot - and since you ALWAYS pipe up on this issue, I'd say your OWN "freedom choices" are subject to discussion, as well... Now, I think that people who smoke, or are overweight are usually pretty stupid - now, just how stupid are YOU, given those parameters???

You see, it's all fun and games until it's YOUR oxe being gored, now isn't it??? Quit being a hypocrite, and let others decide what's best for them...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:21:14 AM EDT
"Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business."


OK, then I'm having a hard time understanding why you think someone else's seatbelt use is any of YOUR business???


"I don't recall you ever asking, so I am gonna call bullshit on that. However, whether you have asked before or not, the answer is the same. I won't even argue that those things are dumb. That does not change the fact that those who choose not to wear seatbelts are dumb as well."


You can call bullshit as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we've been through this dance before - now, IF you smoke, or are overweight, you really don't have much authority to comment on someone else's "stupidity" if they choose not to wear a seatbelt or helmet, do you???



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:22:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.




I love cicular logic.

I hope you aren't a smoker (lung cancer & emphysema) or a drinker (alcholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, cirrhosis of the liver) - because both activities increase the cost of MY healthcare premiums, and in the case of alcohol, my car insurance premiums due to drunk drivers.

I hope you aren't fat. Fat people have all kinds of health problems I don't want to pay for. I hope you don't eat unhealthy foods. Fat people who eat unhealthy foods who sue places like McDonalds for making them Fat and Unhealthy increase the cost of my Big Mac.

I hope you aren't old, or at least plan to die young. Old people have all kinds of horrendously expensive health problems... making MY health premiums go up.

I hope you don't drive a gas-guzzling SUV, because you're contributing to greenhouse gasses, which in turn makes the .gov slap a gas-guzzler tax on MY gas-guzzling SUV. Not only that, but your gas-guzzling SUV is hoggin' the gas I need for MY gas-guzzling SUV, thereby driving the price that I have to pay up.


FWIW, I don't write seatbelt tickets either.


BC




BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...



- georgestrings



Fuck off. I have always said there should be no law. What I have said is that those who choose not to wear a seat belt for any reason are idiots.

Try reading comprehension.

Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business.




Now, now Larry - don't get your knickers in a knot - and since you ALWAYS pipe up on this issue, I'd say your OWN "freedom choices" are subject to discussion, as well... Now, I think that people who smoke, or are overweight are usually pretty stupid - now, just how stupid are YOU, given those parameters???

You see, it's all fun and games until it's YOUR oxe being gored, now isn't it??? Quit being a hypocrite, and let others decide what's best for them...



- georgestrings



You don't read very well, do you? You will not find any post where I said it should be law. Go ahead, find just one. I have said over and over that people who choose not to wear them are idiots.

I have never said one way or the other whether I do those other things or not, but you ASSume it. As for you calling me a hypocrite, you can shove that up your ass and try reading what I actually post instead of your BS ASSumptions.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:25:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By georgestrings:
"Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business."


OK, then I'm having a hard time understanding why you think someone else's seatbelt use is any of YOUR business???


"I don't recall you ever asking, so I am gonna call bullshit on that. However, whether you have asked before or not, the answer is the same. I won't even argue that those things are dumb. That does not change the fact that those who choose not to wear seatbelts are dumb as well."


You can call bullshit as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we've been through this dance before - now, IF you smoke, or are overweight, you really don't have much authority to comment on someone else's "stupidity" if they choose not to wear a seatbelt or helmet, do you???



- georgestrings



Yes, I can call them stupid if they choose not to wear a seatbelt, just like you call those who smoke, etc, stupid. Based on your logic, you are doing the same thing you say I am doing.

I don't care if they choose not to wear a seatbelt, but they are still stupid for that choice.

Talk about hypocritical.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:26:28 AM EDT

Seatbelt laws -- A very Socialist battle-cry justifying new laws has now become acceptable


I think you make some good points PeteCO. As seen in this thread so far people will justify taking away individual liberties if the goal is safety for society even at the expense of personal freedom or "saving" money (like if they did save some medicaid money from seatbelt use it wouldn't be wasted elsewhere).

When was it promised to everyone that life was supposed to be risk free and that it was the government's job to see that everyone was safe ?

The government is justifying a revenue generating venture by using safety to play on peoples' fears and sympathetic emotions. Wearing your seatbelt is the smart thing to do for sure, but the government wants to make money(either through medicaid savings or fine collections). Seat belts laws are a good tool for that and most people fall for it.

The people who wear seat belts now would probably do so without a law in place just as the ones who don't wear one are too stupid to do so regardless of the law. The only problem with this logic is that SOMEONE isn't making any money but the results would be close to the same either way.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:28:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...

- georgestrings




Originally Posted By LarryG:

The seatbelt law should not be a law. However, anyone who chooses not to wear one for any reason is not very smart. A lot of the same ones who choose not to wear a seatbelt or helmet are the same one ranting that smokers and overweight people drive their insurance rates and tax rates up, the same ones who don't think the government should take care of smokers or overweight people, yet don't seem to have a problem with the same thing when it comes to their choice not to wear a helmet or seatbelt. Oh well.



I think you and Larry are on the same side of the argument....unless I'm reading his post wrong.

Actually, I didn't read his posts...went back to see what you were talking about...and Larry's stuff seems to sorta mirror...well, EXACTLY mirror what I said in mine. I think signals got crossed somewhere.

Another FWIW....I wear my seat-belt/helmet ALL the time and I think you're a freakin moron if you don't wear it.

And yes, un-restrained occupants do become projectiles, even in low speed collisions.

It may not sound like much, but try this on for size. Stand still and let me throw a 160lb bag of bricks at you...at 35 MPH. This is why I insist if you're riding in my vehicle, you're wearing a seatbelt. If you don't wanna wear it.....get out.

Anyhow....I have all kinds of strange ideas about govenment and what it should and should not be telling us we can do.


BC




Larry might say he's against a seatbelt law, but he never hesitates to call people "stupid", or "morons" if they don't want to use seatbelts or helmets... Now, I happen to think that smoking or being overweight is FAR more harmful to one's health, and FAR more of a social burdon than a lack of using seatbelts or helmets - and IF Larry smokes, or is overweight, he's being a hypocrite by ALWAYS jumping on this bandwagon...

In other words, if you're not being "safe" yourself, *maybe* you oughta STFU about the safety of others...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:34:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:46:07 AM EDT by nightstalker]
If they really want to save healthcare dollars why not

BAN THE SALE OF CIGARETTES AND SMOKING


Oh, wait...they get a lot of tax monies from the cigarette tax...can't go losing revenues...
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:36:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

Originally Posted By BlueCrusader:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How does it hurt other people if you don't wear a seatbelt?



If I have to pay taxes to support your widow and children if you die, it definitely impacts me. If you don't have health insurance, it's my tax dollars that pay for your hospital bills. If you DO have insurance, then in a small way, you contribute to keeping my rates high.




I love cicular logic.

I hope you aren't a smoker (lung cancer & emphysema) or a drinker (alcholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, cirrhosis of the liver) - because both activities increase the cost of MY healthcare premiums, and in the case of alcohol, my car insurance premiums due to drunk drivers.

I hope you aren't fat. Fat people have all kinds of health problems I don't want to pay for. I hope you don't eat unhealthy foods. Fat people who eat unhealthy foods who sue places like McDonalds for making them Fat and Unhealthy increase the cost of my Big Mac.

I hope you aren't old, or at least plan to die young. Old people have all kinds of horrendously expensive health problems... making MY health premiums go up.

I hope you don't drive a gas-guzzling SUV, because you're contributing to greenhouse gasses, which in turn makes the .gov slap a gas-guzzler tax on MY gas-guzzling SUV. Not only that, but your gas-guzzling SUV is hoggin' the gas I need for MY gas-guzzling SUV, thereby driving the price that I have to pay up.


FWIW, I don't write seatbelt tickets either.


BC




BINGO!!!!

I hope Larry reads your post, BTW - he always seems to pipe up on threads like this, but never answered me when I asked him if he smoked, drank, or was overweight...



- georgestrings



Fuck off. I have always said there should be no law. What I have said is that those who choose not to wear a seat belt for any reason are idiots.

Try reading comprehension.

Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business.




Now, now Larry - don't get your knickers in a knot - and since you ALWAYS pipe up on this issue, I'd say your OWN "freedom choices" are subject to discussion, as well... Now, I think that people who smoke, or are overweight are usually pretty stupid - now, just how stupid are YOU, given those parameters???

You see, it's all fun and games until it's YOUR oxe being gored, now isn't it??? Quit being a hypocrite, and let others decide what's best for them...



- georgestrings



You don't read very well, do you? You will not find any post where I said it should be law. Go ahead, find just one. I have said over and over that people who choose not to wear them are idiots.

I have never said one way or the other whether I do those other things or not, but you ASSume it. As for you calling me a hypocrite, you can shove that up your ass and try reading what I actually post instead of your BS ASSumptions.




It would seem YOU'RE the one with the reading problem, Larry - show me where I stated that you supported a seatbelt law... Also, why don't you show me where I ever "assumed" anything about your personal habits - I merely asked about them, since you seem SO interested in what others do, or don't do... Just out of curiousity, why don't you tell us whether you smoke, or are overweight - don't want to show your hypocracy???

Lastly, I'd say you calling me a hypocrite is a textbook case of projection - try another approach, that one's making you look pretty rediculous....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:39:55 AM EDT
Seat belt laws are stupid. I personally choose to wear mine. But if someone doesn't want to wear theirs for whatever reason, it should be their right to choose.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:41:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I refuse to write seatbelt tickets because I think they are un Constitutional.


^
One of the good guys.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:43:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By georgestrings:
"Whether I smoke, drink, or am overweight is not only irrelevant to this, it's also none of your business."


OK, then I'm having a hard time understanding why you think someone else's seatbelt use is any of YOUR business???


"I don't recall you ever asking, so I am gonna call bullshit on that. However, whether you have asked before or not, the answer is the same. I won't even argue that those things are dumb. That does not change the fact that those who choose not to wear seatbelts are dumb as well."


You can call bullshit as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we've been through this dance before - now, IF you smoke, or are overweight, you really don't have much authority to comment on someone else's "stupidity" if they choose not to wear a seatbelt or helmet, do you???



- georgestrings



Yes, I can call them stupid if they choose not to wear a seatbelt, just like you call those who smoke, etc, stupid. Based on your logic, you are doing the same thing you say I am doing.

I don't care if they choose not to wear a seatbelt, but they are still stupid for that choice.

Talk about hypocritical.




OK, I'll try to explain this so that you can understand - I DON'T get on every thread concerning smoking or being overweight, and start in on how stupid those people are - HOWEVER, you ALWAYS jump on these threads ranting about how stupid not using seatbelts/helmets is...

Now, worrying about other's activities, while proclaiming YOURS are no one else's business is the height of hypocracy - in case you don't know the meaning of the word, because you seem a little confused on it's meaning...


Ever heard the expression "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"??? Maybe you should consider it...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:45:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I refuse to write seatbelt tickets because I think they are un Constitutional.



It sort of goes against common wisdom that in places like NEW YORK CITY, if you ride in a taxi or limousine you are not required to wear a seatbelt, AS IF these guys are especially immune to statistics and can elevate above the dangers.....

I love Oklahoma. My uncle let me drive out on the oil leases there when I was about 12 years old (57 Chevy).
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:48:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By georgestrings:

It would seem YOU'RE the one with the reading problem, Larry - show me where I stated that you supported a seatbelt law... Also, why don't you show me where I ever "assumed" anything about your personal habits - I merely asked about them, since you seem SO interested in what others do, or don't do... Just out of curiousity, why don't you tell us whether you smoke, or are overweight - don't want to show your hypocracy???

Lastly, I'd say you calling me a hypocrite is a textbook case of projection - try another approach, that one's making you look pretty rediculous....



- georgestrings



When you say things like "let them choose", that implies that I am in favor of the law when I am not. I let them choose. I comment on that choice, just like you do on smoking, drinking, and being overweight. No difference at all. I have never railed on you for voicing your opinion on that.

You have made plenty of ASSumptions about me. All anyone has to do is read your posts. I would be hypocritical if I thought there should be a law about seatbelts but not about the others.

I don't care what you think. It doesn't matter what you say. Anyone who chooses not to wear a seat belt is a fool, just as those who do the things you mentioned. I may be one of those, but it is irrelevant to the subject at hand.
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