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Posted: 7/16/2010 6:00:47 AM EST
This is completely hypothetical, esp since Im not an LEO yet.

If I remeber correctly, "reasonable suspicion" is requred to do a search.

Let say on a a motor vehicle stop, the vehicle has a bumper sticker advocating the use of marijuana and other illicit narcotics.

Would this bumper sticker be considered reasonable grounds for a search? and how would that stand up in court?

And the same for gun bumper stickers, such as the ever classic "Keep honking Im reloading" sticker.


Im curious as to whether this has happened in the past.
Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 6:23:30 AM EST
[#1]
Not even close to RS.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 6:26:53 AM EST
[#2]
How would it hold up in court? BADLY.

It's a bumper sticker, it's the first amendment. That's not sufficient for probable cause ....by itself. Could it with other things, would it? Unknown but it's like the possible elephant out in the lobby of the courthouse.  At any rate, I wouldn't use it as the key point.
__________________________________________
("It's a statement against the President, Sir! It's treason!"––Night Watch
"It's an opinion."––Captain Sheridan, (w,stte), "B 5")
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 6:30:22 AM EST
[#3]
well I'm not a LEO yet (still in school) but I do know the answer to your question.

you need reasonable suspicion to initiate the traffic stop. However, you need Probable Cause (PC) to actually get inside the car. although those bumper stickers should be treated as "red flags" to keep your eyes ears and nose alert. they, in and of themselves, do not amount to enough that would let legally search that vehicle.

Now lets say you see a bumper sticker advocating the use of marijuana and because of this you poke your head in closer to get a good sniff of the vehicle and are able to detect the odor of marijuana, after receiving the drivers license from a driver that appears to be exhibiting behavior consistent with someone under the influence of marijuana (difficulty maintaining eye contact, apparent disconnect with the situation at hand for example) you take a good look in the backseat of the car and discover a drug paraphernalia such as a roach clip. Finally once you run his license you discover that he has a history of drug related charges.
With this situation although you have not actually seen that he is in possession of an illegal drug, the totality of the circumstances has established probable cause for you to search that vehicle.
Sorry about the essay but I hope this clears things up a bit for you.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 6:45:49 AM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
well I'm not a LEO yet (still in school) but I do know the answer to your question.

you need reasonable suspicion to initiate the traffic stop. However, you need Probable Cause (PC) to actually get inside the car. although those bumper stickers should be treated as "red flags" to keep your eyes ears and nose alert. they, in and of themselves, do not amount to enough that would let legally search that vehicle.

Now lets say you see a bumper sticker advocating the use of marijuana and because of this you poke your head in closer to get a good sniff of the vehicle and are able to detect the odor of marijuana, after receiving the drivers license from a driver that appears to be exhibiting behavior consistent with someone under the influence of marijuana (difficulty maintaining eye contact, apparent disconnect with the situation at hand for example) you take a good look in the backseat of the car and discover a drug paraphernalia such as a roach clip. Finally once you run his license you discover that he has a history of drug related charges.
With this situation although you have not actually seen that he is in possession of an illegal drug, the totality of the circumstances has established probable cause for you to search that vehicle.
Sorry about the essay but I hope this clears things up a bit for you.



That's all you need right there, PC established, you own the car and everyone in it.

The other stuff is icing on the cake, and without the odor, the remaining is probably enough to detain them until a dog can arrive.

Bumper stickers can be indicators, but beyond that I think that OPSEC begins to apply and I'll remain quiet. If this is a field that interests anyone, get into police work and start taking interdiction courses.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 7:59:43 AM EST
[#5]
Like the man said, it should raise flags, but it's nowhere near PC.

Odor of marijuana/burnt marijuana "emanating" from the vehicle's windows... Carroll search.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 12:29:58 PM EST
[#6]
It would make me probably lean my investigation toward the possibility of drugs being present, but that and that only is a no-go. If I couldn't find a way to get in, I'd just ASK for consent anyway.
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 1:28:35 AM EST
[#7]
Something else to be considered.

To me, bumper stickers are like putting antennas on APC's. Easy enough to do......just a lot harder to take off but in any event, they can be used to influence the thoughts of the enemy and confuse them.

In the Viet Nam War, a commander foiled the enemy from attacking the command APC, because it was loaded with antennas, by putting extra antennas on all the APC's.

If all it takes is a bumper sticker to make someone give a car undue attention, then doesn't it stand to reason that the bad guy will put them on his decoy cars while the main ones don't have them?
______________________________________________
("You're to run blocking when we do a moonshine run. When the cops come up, you get in the way from them catching us."––the crook to the hero in some white lightning, probably a Burt, movie, (w,stte))
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 2:29:33 AM EST
[#8]
Quoted:
This is completely hypothetical, esp since Im not an LEO yet.

If I remeber correctly, "reasonable suspicion" is requred to do a search.

Let say on a a motor vehicle stop, the vehicle has a bumper sticker advocating the use of marijuana and other illicit narcotics.

Would this bumper sticker be considered reasonable grounds for a search? and how would that stand up in court?

And the same for gun bumper stickers, such as the ever classic "Keep honking Im reloading" sticker.


Im curious as to whether this has happened in the past.
Thanks guys.


not totally hypothetical (this is kinda different but the same, LMAO).

I was at a training class put on by DHS or one of the other Alphabet agencies where the instructor strongly suggested that any vehicle with pro-gun, anti.gov etc bumper stickers (he specifically mentioned the Gadsen Flag) should be stopped (based totally on the stickers) search if possible and basically fuck with the driver/occupants because they are a threat to America.

I laughed at him infront of everyone and pointed out that my Dodge Ram parked in the lot has a Gadsen Flag and Oathkeepers decals on it. I assured him that I was the most patriotic and constitutionalist (if that is a word) person in the room. he left it alone the rest of the day but pretty much refused to call on me any time I raised my hand in response to something he said.

J-

Link Posted: 7/17/2010 4:32:53 AM EST
[#9]
I would call it a "clue" not "reasonable suspicion"

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 5:45:36 AM EST
[#10]
Quoted:
If I remeber correctly, "reasonable suspicion" is requred to do a search.


First off, not correct. A search warrant is required for a search. To obtain a search warrant, one must have probable cause. Certain circumstances may allow for a warrantless search, but probable cause is still required.

Reasonable suspicion is required for a temporary detention and a Terry frisk.


Let say on a a motor vehicle stop, the vehicle has a bumper sticker advocating the use of marijuana and other illicit narcotics.


As others have said, this does not even amount to reasonable suspicion.
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 6:00:12 AM EST
[#11]
Quoted:

I was at a training class put on by DHS or one of the other Alphabet agencies where the instructor strongly suggested that any vehicle with pro-gun, anti.gov etc bumper stickers (he specifically mentioned the Gadsen Flag) should be stopped (based totally on the stickers) search if possible and basically fuck with the driver/occupants because they are a threat to America.





I really hope he wasn't serious because if someone actually did this they could get themselves in some shit because a bumper sticker like that does not amount to PC that can be used to initiate a traffic stop.
However, in school one of my instructors was telling us that in a situation that we decide we want to stop a car and have a talk with the driver even though no obvious violations taking place (no speeding or stop sign running) is look for very minor vehicle code violations. This could be something as simple as a license plate being dirty enough to even slightly obscure one portion of the plate. There are a lot of very minor violations that many people don't even know they are committing that can be used as grounds to pull a car over if you feel you need to talk to the driver/get a good look inside the vehicle. I would go ahead and get a copy of your states traffic code and look it over. (its public information and can be obtained for free off the internet)
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 6:16:36 AM EST
[#12]
Its even harder to get inside of cars now because of the case...Arizona v. Gant



You'd have a terrible time in court with that.....no matter how well you can 'articulate' !!
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 12:31:20 PM EST
[#13]
All indicators, but not in and of themself RS.
They can support your RS/PC but you can't rely on them alone.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 7:10:47 AM EST
[#14]
Nope.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 1:02:31 AM EST
[#15]
Quoted:
Not even close to RS.




Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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