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Posted: 4/2/2017 1:30:12 PM EDT
Guderian thought the Jagdpanzer IV was a waste of resources and reasoned more Pz. IVs were needed.
Jagdpanzer was cheaper and clearly easier/faster to produce.
We all know the problems with casemate style armored vehicles, but from a production standpoint did Guderian not reason with simplified manufactoring?
Who was pushing for more Jagdpanzer style assault guns?

It would seem logical that having 100 Jagdpanzer IVs would be more advantageous than 50 Pz IVs. (I'm guessing with the production figures)

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 1:41:41 PM EDT
[#1]
The Jagpanzer IV was not popular compared to the StuG III.

The Jagpanzer IV was very front end heavy, especially with the long 75 which stressed the drive train and suspension, and also made it difficult to maneuver, added to which casemate style vehicles already have a disadvantage vs. turret A.F.V.

For sitting and waiting for the enemy to come into your ambush the casemate is acceptable.

The Germans vigorously preached the gospel of Attack, Attack and Attack, for which the turret tank has more flexibility in action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 1:57:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Granted but by this time the sheer fact of having a solid supply line was slim to none as a result of the Air Corps. The Pak42 L70 was necessary to thwart the Soviet Horde.

It just would make more sense that attacking in the later stages of the War was futile (insert practically every German offensive '44 onwards) and its clear US air superiority was taking its tole.

Sure every tank/td has its pros and cons but it would seem easing the cost and production time would take priority, Mkb42/Mp43/Mp44/Stg44 is one example. Guess the hetzer is too.
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 2:19:44 PM EDT
[#3]
There were actually two different JagdPanzer IV.

Allket (A) Version has a vertical section



Vs. the "Standard" version



The Germans just couldn't get their act in unison and say "THIS" is the standard, and everybody build the same damn thing the same damn way...

The Americans had some similarities in the Sherman.  Everybody knows it was a mass production success, but their are DOZENS of different subtypes of Engine (Wright Aircraft Radial, diesel, chrysler or ford gas engines), Suspension (VVS, HVVS), armament (75, 76, 105, flame, etc), ammunition storage, hulls (cast or welded), etc...

A tank with a mobility kill (track or engine) can still use the turret to fight on.   A TD with a casement has a very limited ability to respond after a MK.

The comparison of the production cost of the STug III with the long 75 gun Vs. Tiger would make you think all you need is STuGs...   But a well rounded force needs more than just one tool

EDITED - Found this on Wikipedia under the PANTHER article " The cost of a Panther tank has been given as 117,100 Reichmarks (RM). This compared with 82,500 RM for the StuG III, 96,163 RM for the Panzer III, 103,462 RM for the Panzer IV, and 250,800 RM for the Tiger I. "
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 2:34:12 PM EDT
[#4]
There was actually a third version being the "V' model produced by Vomag.

I see your point but I hate dragging the Panther into this debate. Different chassis and design.

The Pz IV and the Jagdpanzer IV are much more similar than the StugIII and the Pz V.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 2:40:22 PM EDT
[#5]
If you look at the picture of the Jagdpanzer IV, it looks like the rubber road wheel rim is missing off the front suspension wheels...

based on what I've read it seems the extreme forward weight bias of the Jagdpanzer IV (along with the risk of damage to the gun when crossing a ditch or depression) may be accurate.
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 2:54:25 PM EDT
[#6]
Interesting point! Never thought about weight distribution
Link Posted: 4/3/2017 7:20:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The Germans vigorously preached the gospel of Attack, Attack and Attack, for which the turret tank has more flexibility in action.
View Quote
This is why Guderian preferred the Pzkw IV over the Jagdpanzer.  The former is for attack, the latter is more defensive in nature.
Link Posted: 4/9/2017 1:40:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There was actually a third version being the "V' model produced by Vomag.

I see your point but I hate dragging the Panther into this debate. Different chassis and design.

The Pz IV and the Jagdpanzer IV are much more similar than the StugIII and the Pz V.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/350996/jagd4-179489.JPG
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There was actually a third version being the "V' model produced by Vomag.

I see your point but I hate dragging the Panther into this debate. Different chassis and design.

The Pz IV and the Jagdpanzer IV are much more similar than the StugIII and the Pz V.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/350996/jagd4-179489.JPG
Actually it's just the two versions.  The JagdPzIV (A) or (V).  The Alketts all had the raised superstructure while the Vomags all had the lower superstructure.  They both came with either the L/48 or the L/70 guns.  I think the earlier test hulls had the earlier L/43 guns but do not quote me on that as my book is somewhere.


Quoted:
If you look at the picture of the Jagdpanzer IV, it looks like the rubber road wheel rim is missing off the front suspension wheels...

based on what I've read it seems the extreme forward weight bias of the Jagdpanzer IV (along with the risk of damage to the gun when crossing a ditch or depression) may be accurate.
The JagdPz usually had the first 2-4 roadwheels replaced with the steel rimmed variety to help with the extra weight on the front of the tank.  The rubber tended to shred itself under the extra weight especially with the L/70 guns.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 4:48:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Granted but by this time the sheer fact of having a solid supply line was slim to none as a result of the Air Corps. The Pak42 L70 was necessary to thwart the Soviet Horde.

It just would make more sense that attacking in the later stages of the War was futile (insert practically every German offensive '44 onwards) and its clear US air superiority was taking its tole.

Sure every tank/td has its pros and cons but it would seem easing the cost and production time would take priority, Mkb42/Mp43/Mp44/Stg44 is one example. Guess the hetzer is too.
View Quote
I know I am late to this one....just found out we had this forum.  The first thing a German officer was trained to think of when the enemy attacked was to counter attack.  Stugs etc are great but not so much on  the move.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 8:13:11 PM EDT
[#10]
BTW, good book is Panzer Gunner and it is written by a Canadian of German descent.  Papa sent him back to Germany and Germany decided he was fit to serve and drafted him into the  7th Panzer Div.  He served in a Pzkw IV and later a Jagdpanzer IV with the 75/L70.  He took out a JS-II with a flank shot.  Post war he returned to Canada and got funny looks when asked what unit he served with.  
Link Posted: 8/25/2017 12:15:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
BTW, good book is Panzer Gunner and it is written by a Canadian of German descent.  Papa sent him back to Germany and Germany decided he was fit to serve and drafted him into the  7th Panzer Div.  He served in a Pzkw IV and later a Jagdpanzer IV with the 75/L70.  He took out a JS-II with a flank shot.  Post war he returned to Canada and got funny looks when asked what unit he served with.  
View Quote
Thanks man!
Link Posted: 8/4/2018 11:50:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Actually there is a  slight difference between an assault gun such as a stug III  and a jagd panzer .
The assault gun being for more general use and support vs the jagd panzer which is. More specialized for tank killing .
I’m petty that the assault guns were more phased out starting 43 or so and the Jagd Panzers more preveliant .
Jagd panzer share the same hull as the tanks they resemble except  better sloped armor and the gun was a class bigger than the tank variant of the same hull .

Ie the Jagd  panzer V had the long 88 while the Panther tank of same hull had the 76mm L70
The Jagd panzer VI , on the tiger 2
hull had a 120 mm gun while the tiger 2 tank hag the long 88 mm.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 7:01:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Sturmgeschutz we’re motorized field artillery that originally supported infantry.   Jagdpanzers belonged to panzertruppen.  That is the theory but someone can correct me if I’m wrong.  I think there was a lot of blurring as the Germans were short on vehicles.
Link Posted: 8/24/2018 11:00:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Sturmgeschutz we're motorized field artillery that originally supported infantry.   Jagdpanzers belonged to panzertruppen.  That is the theory but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.  I think there was a lot of blurring as the Germans were short on vehicles.
View Quote
Assault Guns were just that, artillery meant to support the infantry in direct fire against bunkers, pillboxes, AT guns, and other reinforced positions that were such a problem for the Storm Troopers in WWI. Doctrine said they were in the second line during attack, and could be used to set ambushed in defense, but were always intended to operate with infantry.

The Tank Hunters were ambush killers with enough armor to survive some frontal hits from their prey and enough gun to take out anything they found. They were designed from the start to kill enemy tanks.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 2:27:51 AM EDT
[#15]
That said, it doesn’t have a lot to do with the Jpz IV’s design. The vehicle was originally designated a StuG, and it started a bit of an internal battle between the Panzer arm and the infantry/artillery arms over who was going to get them. If it stayed a StuG, then the latter two would have more control. If it was a Panzerjaeger, then the Panzer arm got to control them. Guderian won.
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