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4/22/2019 5:32:20 PM
Posted: 8/22/2006 5:57:10 PM EDT
So, I went with a friend of mine and her daughter to sign her up for kindergarden, and to show her around the school what I grew up in. Walking down the halls and into the classrooms brought back a LOT of memories... I was very surprised at how emotional I was becoming, because all I could remember back when I was still in the school, was that I hated it, every minute of it. Now, as I walked through the halls and classrooms, all I could think about was how much fun I had! How many great people I met, and how everything was so simple back then!

As we were walking my friends daughter to her classroom, I noticed down the hallway they had the library door open. I was intruiged because that's where some of my closest friends and I would be after school for our chess club (Yes I was a nerd, STFU I KILL YOU). As we were walking around the corner and into the library... My testicles hit the floor...

There were no books.

There were just computers.

Computers are kickass and everything... But there were NO BOOKS.

I then looked around into the classrooms, and EVERY classroom had COMPUTERS. NO BOOKS.

What in the blue fuck are you suppose to do when the power goes out? Fuckin' go HOME and study?! WITH WHAT?! Maybe I'm over reacting, and maybe I'm too attatched to books, but when I was younger I HATED books, and I LOVED computers. Now, that I see how fucktard liberal everything looks with just computers and no books, I find me quite beside myself.

It's great that kindergardeners and all kids are being taught much younger about computers and technology. That's great! They SHOULD be! But, don't take books out of the fuckin' schools! Some ass could give the school a virus, and then SHTF for them. Or, a bad storm could roll through, and power could go out... How would they study?

I looked ALL over the school. I know EVERY inch of that school, and there was NOT a library in that school!

I'm going to turn 22 at the end of August, and I felt so goddamn old when I walked into my old stomping grounds, and they have replaced books and the libraries with computers.


Does this bother anyone else?
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:12:38 PM EDT
It's a shame, books keep things at least reasonably honest. You have to have at least some degree of intelect to go to the library, find the book you need, and locate the information you desire. The librarians and teachers had to also have a degree of brainpower to direct you to the proper place if requested. Now these last bastions of neural activity can be replaced with an expert system piloted by cleaned up McDonalds employee posing as a babysitter.

I am 35 and feel that my generation had it great. As teens, we were old enough to avoid the leash that the telcom world has on kids today, and young enough to grow up around women that bathed daily (not to mention the 80s had lots of cool music and toys. It seems better today, but the 90s seemed like a real desert.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:19:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
It's a shame, books keep things at least reasonably honest. You have to have at least some degree of intelect to go to the library, find the book you need, and locate the information you desire. The librarians and teachers had to also have a degree of brainpower to direct you to the proper place if requested. Now these last bastions of neural activity can be replaced with an expert system piloted by cleaned up McDonalds employee posing as a babysitter.

I am 35 and feel that my generation had it great. As teens, we were old enough to avoid the leash that the telcom world has on kids today, and young enough to grow up around women that bathed daily (not to mention the 80s had lots of cool music and toys. It seems better today, but the 90s seemed like a real desert.


Yeah, I feel you on that one.

I think that a lot of kids in my generation... Well, weren't really "readers" if you know what I mean... But the majority of us had enough common sense when we were like 6 years old, to be able to walk to the store to get candy, or to ride our bikes around the neighborhood and not have to have our parents worry about us getting hit by a car...

Good ol' days man... I miss'em.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:20:30 PM EDT
heh you don't honestly think school continues when the power goes out do you?

When it happens where I teach we have to move the kids out of the building and into the stadium.

I have a classroom set of books and I give each kid a CD with the textbook on it. It's his to keep too. I have a master copy that I duplicate each year. (I have a license to do so so be quiet haters)

Times change and methods change. It's nothing new.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:21:33 PM EDT
I've always loved books. Heck, when I went to school, the school librarian would let me get first pick of the new books before any of the other students knew they had arrived.

I've also discovered, unsurprisingly, that all of the people I think of as being incredibly ignorant and foolish DON'T READ. They think books are boring, or for some incomprehensible reason cannot understand the imagery within.

Heck, I got into books from the 50's and 60's when I was very young, and as a result I developed a vocabulary identical to all the adults around me; I could understand where they came from and I got treated as more than just a kid. Nobody today reads, most of them can barely form a coherent sentence in their own language, and they have no ability or desire to identify with any generation but their own. Pathetic.

I truly believe it this dumbing-down, this wave of illiteracy, that causes so many people today to be sheeple.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:22:25 PM EDT
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:28:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
heh you don't honestly think school continues when the power goes out do you?

When it happens where I teach we have to move the kids out of the building and into the stadium.

I have a classroom set of books and I give each kid a CD with the textbook on it. It's his to keep too. I have a master copy that I duplicate each year. (I have a license to do so so be quiet haters)

Times change and methods change. It's nothing new.


Well most places aren't setup with a nice "stadium" where we can move the kids to when the power goes out. If the power goes out and can't come back on... They go home (at least thats how it was for me back in the day, and we had BOOKS).

And as for the CD with the textbook on it, are you talking about one that goes into a CD Player, or a CDROM? Because my friend doesn't have a computer, nor does many of my other friends that are sending their children to kindergarden and +.

My main thing is... Say it's a 6th grader or something, and they have a shitload of homework to do or something, but it's all done on the computer... If that kid doesn't have a computer at home, then they'll just be SOL? I would hope not. But, what if they needed to study for something, but the power is out at their house, and the only way they could study was with the computer, or something along those lines?

I guess what I'm saying is... Books shouldn't be taken out of schools, reguardless of how high-tech classrooms are getting.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:29:24 PM EDT
School without books?


Sounds good to me, after I saw the price tag on my $150 Algebra book package.


Of course the school bookstore has the package shrink-wrapped with the ISBN carefully hidden to make it that much harder to find online.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 11:20:46 PM EDT
I find it interesting when a 22 year old starts talking about "kids of my generation".

I'd be curious as to why the library was phased out myself. I used to practically live in my elementary school library when I was that age.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:34:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!


You beat me to it! It's what Winston Smith did for a living.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:40:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rjroberts:

Originally Posted By gus:
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!


You beat me to it! It's what Winston Smith did for a living.


I have a collection of high school chemistry books from the 60's. Most of them have experiments available as assignments or independent study involving low-grade explosives, making your own medication (some of which have been banned in recent years because you can further refine them into drugs), concentrated acids, etc. One even has an entire section devoted to building your own fireworks and safely detonating them.

You don't see that in today's chemistry books, that's for sure.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:51:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By rjroberts:

Originally Posted By gus:
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!


You beat me to it! It's what Winston Smith did for a living.


I have a collection of high school chemistry books from the 60's. Most of them have experiments available as assignments or independent study involving low-grade explosives, making your own medication (some of which have been banned in recent years because you can further refine them into drugs), concentrated acids, etc. One even has an entire section devoted to building your own fireworks and safely detonating them.

You don't see that in today's chemistry books, that's for sure.


The history books, politics books, and civics books are the ones they most want to "update". If I had kids, I'd do whatever it took to home school them.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:15:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:

Sounds good to me, after I saw the price tag on my $150 Algebra book package.


This kills me. What new advances in the field of mathematics justify such a rapacious price for a fucking algebra book? I guarantee it's the same shit that was in my algebra books 20 years ago.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:17:00 AM EDT
Another problem with having no books: it's impossible to take a book and go off by yourself to read it quietly in a corner. You are forced to socialize with the other paste eaters if you want to read.

I do believe I'd go Patrick Purdy after about two days in such an environment.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:19:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Covert8645:
And as for the CD with the textbook on it, are you talking about one that goes into a CD Player, or a CDROM? Because my friend doesn't have a computer, nor does many of my other friends that are sending their children to kindergarden and +.

My main thing is... Say it's a 6th grader or something, and they have a shitload of homework to do or something, but it's all done on the computer... If that kid doesn't have a computer at home, then they'll just be SOL? I would hope not.


Devil's advocate. The student and parents will know going into the school year that a computer will be required. It isn't like suddenly 3 months in to the school year all the books disappeared and eveything had to be turned in in .pdf format.

Desktops aren't exactly pricey right now either. They carry em' at Walmart these days at a reasonable price.

That being said, my personal collection of books has far outstripped my shelving space. Having paper in your hand is alway preferable to the glowing monitor imo.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:23:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By rjroberts:

Originally Posted By gus:
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!


You beat me to it! It's what Winston Smith did for a living.


I have a collection of high school chemistry books from the 60's. Most of them have experiments available as assignments or independent study involving low-grade explosives, making your own medication (some of which have been banned in recent years because you can further refine them into drugs), concentrated acids, etc. One even has an entire section devoted to building your own fireworks and safely detonating them.

You don't see that in today's chemistry books, that's for sure.


The history books, politics books, and civics books are the ones they most want to "update". If I had kids, I'd do whatever it took to home school them.


Yeah but you wanna be mighty careful about that gus if they ever want to go into the military. I'm in a rut right now because I'm turning 22 at the end of this month, and I got out of public schools right before my freshman year of high school. Even though I've studied college material, and have flown through high school curriculum, I still don't have a Home School Diploma or a GED.

Why? Well, there was a lot of personal reasons, and a few family emergencies found their way towards my doorstep, and never got around to it. But, now I just learned not too long ago, that it's a GOOD thing that I didn't go after a GED, but rather it be best to get the Home School Diploma because of the regulations of Tier 1 recruiting with the Marines. (It's a big ball of rubberband-ish-shit).

So, within the next few weeks, my family and I are sending away to recieve my Home School Diploma, and then I'll be studying for the ASVAB, and away I go :-)

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:23:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!

Wow. Sometimes you can cut the paranoia with a knife in this place.

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:25:35 AM EDT
we still have books in college
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:27:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 8:28:40 AM EDT by gks452]
I was at "meet the teacher" last night. My son's first grade class had literally hundreds of books. They are expected to take home and read one every night. Maybe that has something to do with why our district is rated so high.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:28:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:
I was at "meet the teacher" last night. My son's first grade class had literally hundreds of books. They are expected to take home and read one every night. May that has something to do with why our district is rated so high.


Could you scan some and email the books to me? i'm sure we need'em here
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:42:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Devil's advocate. The student and parents will know going into the school year that a computer will be required. It isn't like suddenly 3 months in to the school year all the books disappeared and eveything had to be turned in in .pdf format.

Desktops aren't exactly pricey right now either. They carry em' at Walmart these days at a reasonable price.

That being said, my personal collection of books has far outstripped my shelving space. Having paper in your hand is alway preferable to the glowing monitor imo.

Sure but they're no-name E-Machines or other such junk. And if the internet at a person's house gets turned off or they don't have internet, the kid is screwed.

Covert, I shudder to think of what will become of the generation of your friend's daughter. I shudder to think of the non-thinking droids.

Computers are great, but you will never replace books.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 9:12:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 9:13:16 AM EDT by gus]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By gus:
Computer files are easier to edit and revise to suit the liberal agenda than books, which have to be reprinted and the old ones burned. Now utopia is but a mouse click away!!!

Wow. Sometimes you can cut the paranoia with a knife in this place.



I'm just about the least paranoid guy you'll ever meet, but there is much truth to what I said. That might not be their motive for going to computers, but it does in fact make it easier.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 9:32:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 9:35:02 AM EDT by mousehunter]
My daughter (3rd grade) has books, but I have heard that the incoming 1st graders will be online.

I don't think we have a good substitute for books yet - but think digital paper might be just arround the corner. The specs I have seen indicated that it might be the ticket for bridging the gap. I think they even specked in highlighting and writing in the margins.

What I really think is rediculious is the size of my daughters back pack. It is so big I am not sure if it would qualify as a carry on. I could carry all my textbooks for a full load at grad school in a smaller bag.
---
I am also a little worried about how history will be edited. Now it would not be too difficult for each school to have custom verisous of their text books. Ones that focus on their local achievaments, and omit their failings.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 11:49:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Deej86:

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Devil's advocate. The student and parents will know going into the school year that a computer will be required. It isn't like suddenly 3 months in to the school year all the books disappeared and eveything had to be turned in in .pdf format.

Desktops aren't exactly pricey right now either. They carry em' at Walmart these days at a reasonable price.

That being said, my personal collection of books has far outstripped my shelving space. Having paper in your hand is alway preferable to the glowing monitor imo.

Sure but they're no-name E-Machines or other such junk. And if the internet at a person's house gets turned off or they don't have internet, the kid is screwed.

Covert, I shudder to think of what will become of the generation of your friend's daughter. I shudder to think of the non-thinking droids.

Computers are great, but you will never replace books.


I'll grant you they're a real piece of crap compared to what PC afficanados buy or build. I personally wouldn't have a PC in my home that I didn't build myself. That said these no namers are perfect for folks who just need a PC and don't want to play Battlefield 2 or Crysis. The system I linked to is, hardwarewise, very similar to the one I got my folks into...because that's all they need or want.

Books are still the win though.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 11:52:51 AM EDT
Computers in classrooms is part of the liberal conspiracy too? Man I learn something new on this site every day.


If the power goes out you're going to have more problems then just the computer methinks anyways.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 12:04:37 PM EDT
We didn't have books in German class in HS (teacher was born/raised in Germany) and I learned more in two years of German than any other subject.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 12:20:05 PM EDT
We still use books in my high school... just started 2day.... damn it sucks..... but we got all the books.. math... chem.... and a library w/ a shit load of books... we gotta lot of computers, but we have books too. i go to a private christian high school..
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 12:34:10 PM EDT
The great experiment!

Let a kid read ARFCOM for an hour each day, from first grade to sixth.
Let another read DU in the same fashion.
At the end of it all, stage a televised public debate! I can't wait!
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:31:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:

Originally Posted By napalm:

Sounds good to me, after I saw the price tag on my $150 Algebra book package.


This kills me. What new advances in the field of mathematics justify such a rapacious price for a fucking algebra book? I guarantee it's the same shit that was in my algebra books 20 years ago.




Yep. Which is why I waited until class today to get the ISBN off the cover of the book that one of the suckers bought at the bookstore.

Alibris.com has it for $72.35.

Next semester I can probably sell it to another student for $75.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:54:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Deej86:
Sure but they're no-name E-Machines or other such junk.

E-Machines isn't exactly a no-name company. They've been around for a fairly long time. They aren't the best, obviously, but they aren't bad either. You can also get Dell computers for a comparable price. Here's a Dell desktop with monitor for $279: configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DB110A&s=dhs).



And if the internet at a person's house gets turned off or they don't have internet, the kid is screwed.

There are plenty of free dial up ISPs that would be suitable for doing homework. If a family can't afford a phone line, there is always the library (most libraries tend to have internet access). The internet is here to stay. Not learning to effectively use a computer and use the internet will certainly cripple those of future generations whether its "fair" or not.



Covert, I shudder to think of what will become of the generation of your friend's daughter. I shudder to think of the non-thinking droids.

Compelling children to mindlessly memorize and regurgitate information is not a problem caused by computers. Schools and teachers have been forcing kids to "learn" in this way for decades.


Computers are great, but you will never replace books.

Print media is increasingly being replaced by online media. You can get the same information from a book on a computer. Many of my recent book purchases have even been for "ebook" versions of books (same exact thing as the print copy, except in a digital format read on the computer).
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:59:20 PM EDT
No Cat in the Hat? No Are You My Mother? No Green Eggs and Ham? Are we to deprive a child of the reading pleasures of Old Yeller and other childhood classics? Oh, the humanity!
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:43:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zeruel:



Covert, I shudder to think of what will become of the generation of your friend's daughter. I shudder to think of the non-thinking droids.

Compelling children to mindlessly memorize and regurgitate information is not a problem caused by computers. Schools and teachers have been forcing kids to "learn" in this way for decades.


Interestingly, education used to work, unlike in today's progressive schools where all that old obsolete stuff has been abandoned.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:00:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By Zeruel:



Covert, I shudder to think of what will become of the generation of your friend's daughter. I shudder to think of the non-thinking droids.

Compelling children to mindlessly memorize and regurgitate information is not a problem caused by computers. Schools and teachers have been forcing kids to "learn" in this way for decades.


Interestingly, education used to work, unlike in today's progressive schools where all that old obsolete stuff has been abandoned.



+1


I'm 53 and I still can remember when forcing kids to learn by memorizing the info was in style. I have been a teacher for about 15 years and I am amazed that my students retain the info that they memorize apparently very well. I can still remember stuff that I learned in high school and middle school I wonder why.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:00:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 4v50:
No Cat in the Hat? No Are You My Mother? No Green Eggs and Ham? Are we to deprive a child of the reading pleasures of Old Yeller and other childhood classics? Oh, the humanity!


I don't know about you, but I never read those things in school. They were at home. School should not be a substitute for parenting, merely an additional asset.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:26:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2006 7:43:21 AM EDT by HKArch]
Covert8645, did you check for UPSs plugged into the computers?


Originally Posted By Covert8645:

Originally Posted By gks452:
I was at "meet the teacher" last night. My son's first grade class had literally hundreds of books. They are expected to take home and read one every night. May that has something to do with why our district is rated so high.


Could you scan some and email the books to me? i'm sure we need'em here
I have two old copies of Gun Digest that I'd be willing to donate. Just give me a shipping address.
Link Posted: 8/24/2006 8:32:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:
Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Yep. Which is why I waited until class today to get the ISBN off the cover of the book that one of the suckers bought at the bookstore.

Alibris.com has it for $72.35.

Next semester I can probably sell it to another student for $75.


From todays paper, an interesting footnote to this topic and your post specifically...

www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060824/NEWS01/608240339/1002

Net books help CU students cut costs
By Topher Sanders
Journal Staff

ITHACA — Students at Cornell University will for the first time be able to purchase eBooks for specific classes in the upcoming school year, an official said.

The move is an effort by the school to offer students more affordable options for text books.

A government study last year found that the cost of textbooks rose more than twice the rate of inflation in the past two decades.

The textbook business is a $6 billion industry, and students are beginning to voice concern over the high cost of books, taking specific issue with the speed at which new editions come out, making old editions seemingly obsolete.
Margie Whiteleather is the strategic project manager for Cornell Business Services, under which Cornell's bookstore falls. She said a Cornell student will spend about $1,000 on books every year.

“We share the concerns of the students over the increasing textbook cost,” Whiteleather said. “We have doubled our supply of used books in recent years. We try to buy back as many used books as we can from students.”

Whiteleather said used books account for 36 percent of the Cornell bookstore's inventory.

Michael Bovi, the director of college stores for Ithaca College, said used books are also a focus of Ithaca College.

“We work very hard to try to provide the largest amount of used books that we can,” he said. “We work with used book wholesalers and we buy back books from students several times a year.”

Bovi said used books account for 25 to 30 percent of the Ithaca College's bookstore inventory. He said the school has yet to offer its students eBooks.

Whiteleather said eBooks, textbooks that can be downloaded from the Internet, are also a way to help save students money. She said the eBooks can be up to 43 percent cheaper than a physical copy of the same title.

Many of the eBooks allow students to print limited numbers of pages from the text each week, to prevent pirating.

The school is offering 13 titles that will be used in 17 different courses.

Ilan Safir, a junior at Cornell majoring in Biology, carried two large bags full of books as he left Cornell's bookstore on Monday. He said he spent about $540 on texts for the upcoming semester.

“The books are kind of really expensive,” he said. “But what can you do?”

Safir said he finds some of his text books to not be worth the price when professors only use a couple of chapters to support classroom instruction.

Students have also complained about the frequency at which new editions of textbooks are released.

“This is a vicious circle where the new editions are coming out to try and control or limit the used book market,” Whiteleather said. “Some publishers will tell you that the used book market is driving up the cost of text books.”

Whiteleather said students should communicate with their professors to see if older editions of a textbook can still be used for a course.

Bovi said the issue of expensive textbooks is overblown. He said parents and students should simply realize book prices are just part of the education process.

“We'll sell a $70 sweatshirt and nobody ever complains, but we sell a $70 book and everyone complains,” he said. “You get nothing for that sweatshirt at the end of the year, but what you learned from that book no one can ever take that from you.”

Freeload Press, a new textbook provider, is offering free eBooks to students this fall. The books are free because they have advertisements in them for companies such as FedEx Kinko's and Pura Vida coffee.

Lisa Blum, a graduate student at Cornell, said she wouldn't mind the books as long as the advertisements didn't interfere with studying.

“It depends on how distracting they were,” she said. “If it were just a few ads, that wouldn't be so bad, but if they were on every other page, I wouldn't like that and I'd rather just pay for the book.”

Whiteleather said Freeload's model is interesting.

“I think it's a great idea,” she said. “If it's saving a $100 dollars students won't mind seeing the ads. But until they can infiltrate the larger book providers they won't have a huge impact. I think our whole business should be looking at other models to try and solve the cost issue.”


cbsanders@ithacajournal.com


Originally published August 24, 2006


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