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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:26:05 AM EST
All of the recent Middle East stuff has made one thing very clear to me: I am no where near as knoweldgable on the subject as I should be. I am not surprised, as I spent the better part of my life with my head buried in the sand rather than educating myself on what my conservative values meant outside the 2nd A I support. I am now dedicated to soaking up as much information as I can.

So before you go flaming me, try to understand that I have already kicked myself in the butt and now seek to right that ignorance I once praticed.

Just how powerful are the Armed Forces of Israel, and how strong is our relationship with them? Is Iran our only common enemy, or does it run much deeper than that? If the SHTF with some real level of severity, how good of a team would we make? How much can they actually supplement our military endeavors?

Also, Israel is a major player in the biblical apocolyptic predictions, is it not? What are the religious speculations of our relationship with them in the second coming of Christ? Are we to be their allies, or their enemies?

Just interject whatever thoughts you have so I can supplement my own research. Links would be appreciated, but only credible ones. If I wanted fallacy, I'd of used my troll account at DU to ask this question, rather than opening myself up to scrutiny here.

Thanks for any and all insight and schooling in advance.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:30:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:33:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 6:34:29 AM EST by Zaphod]
My .223, worth exactly what you paid for it:

1) Israel is our closest ally in the region. WHY they are our ally may be a matter of simple survival to them, but aside from that, they can almost universally be relied upon to side with us.

2) Their military is one of the finest on earth, especially since we supply much of the hardware. They have also come up with some seriously kick-ass stuff themselves. As to effectiveness, they have fought with their backs against the wall more than once, and kicked the shit out of their enemies each time.

3) Israel's first concern is their own survival. If they could guarantee it by selling us out, I wouldn't put it past them to do it. I could be wrong, but...

4) The fractures between Israeli and Arab/Muslim are geographic, cultural, racial, and (most importantly) VERY, VERY OLD. There is no simple solution, especially when one side's stated goal has been the elimination of the other (guess which side THAT was).

As for the role of the Israeli army in the apocalypse, I'll leave that to those who have studied Revelation in detail. I don't plan to be around for it, and even if I am, I have faith of where I'm going should I get caught up in it.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:33:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By kpel308:
I, in general, support Israel and the Israelis, with the caveat that I know they will do anything to protect their own interests, i.e.: Jonathan Pollard, the Liberty "mistake", and the assassination of Gerald Bull.

I am much more inclined to be favorable to the Israelis than to the Palestinians or Arabs. After all, they took care of that Iraqi nuke plant back in the early 80's, so we didn't have to.



Yeah, but why? I've wondered about this for a long time as well. It seems like a pretty one-sided relationship to me, with the US always standing up for Israel, and Israel doing nothing in return.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:34:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By richardh247:
All of the recent Middle East stuff has made one thing very clear to me: I am no where near as knoweldgable on the subject as I should be. I am not surprised, as I spent the better part of my life with my head buried in the sand rather than educating myself on what my conservative values meant outside the 2nd A I support. I am now dedicated to soaking up as much information as I can.

So before you go flaming me, try to understand that I have already kicked myself in the butt and now seek to right that ignorance I once praticed.

Just how powerful are the Armed Forces of Israel, and how strong is our relationship with them? Is Iran our only common enemy, or does it run much deeper than that? If the SHTF with some real level of severity, how good of a team would we make? How much can they actually supplement our military endeavors?

Also, Israel is a major player in the biblical apocolyptic predictions, is it not? What are the religious speculations of our relationship with them in the second coming of Christ? Are we to be their allies, or their enemies?

Just interject whatever thoughts you have so I can supplement my own research. Links would be appreciated, but only credible ones. If I wanted fallacy, I'd of used my troll account at DU to ask this question, rather than opening myself up to scrutiny here.

Thanks for any and all insight and schooling in advance.



and while we're at it.......Will someone also explain why, after Israel's creation as a jewish state in 1948, the United States has so VEHEMENTLY defended it?.....What do WE GET FROM ISRAEL?....Israelis fly American Apaches, drive American M1 Abrahms, shoot M16s/M4s......besides the business aspect of Military trade......WHAT DOES ISRAEL DO FOR US?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:39:45 AM EST
It could be argued that our defense of Israel is due to two primary reasons:

1) We are a Judeo-Christian nation (here comes the argument...). Culturally and spiritually, we share a great deal with them.

2) The Jews, as a culture, are very good about preparing themselves and holding power. This is not a slam: it's admiration. Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, Politicians. They know that to survive, they have to be the best, and sitting around collecting welfare isn't going to cut it. Well, we have a sizeable Jewish community here in the states, and they play the same role.

That said, I see no reason why we should not defend a nation that has simply wanted to live in peace since its creation, and that has just as much right to exist as Lebanon, Syria, etc...

There are LOTS of politics involved, though. Again, they're not saints, either.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:43:12 AM EST
Because they are the chosen race and this is a Christian nation. It's our religious duty.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:44:10 AM EST
I like their attitude.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:45:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
It could be argued that our defense of Israel is due to two primary reasons:

1) We are a Judeo-Christian nation (here comes the argument...). Culturally and spiritually, we share a great deal with them.

2) The Jews, as a culture, are very good about preparing themselves and holding power. This is not a slam: it's admiration. Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, Politicians. They know that to survive, they have to be the best, and sitting around collecting welfare isn't going to cut it. Well, we have a sizeable Jewish community here in the states, and they play the same role.

That said, I see no reason why we should not defend a nation that has simply wanted to live in peace since its creation, and that has just as much right to exist as Lebanon, Syria, etc...

There are LOTS of politics involved, though. Again, they're not saints, either.



OK, this makes sense.

But from an economic standpoint, or a political reasoning if you wish to call it that, what are the mutual benefits outside of principles of like-minded allies? What is their capital output we use? Or better put, if we supply their military do we get anything out of it besides an ally in the Middle East that owes us one?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:46:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 6:47:10 AM EST by macro]

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Yeah, but why? I've wondered about this for a long time as well. It seems like a pretty one-sided relationship to me, with the US always standing up for Israel, and Israel doing nothing in return.



My personal opinion is that they provide us interference.
I know what you are asking, because i asked the same question for years...

Why does the US provide so much support to Israel?
We give them arms, money, and political leverage.
What do we get in return?

Well, for one thing, we get them to be the primary target for all of Islamic middle eastern regimes.
History isnt my strongest subject, but IIRC, the US had a lot to do with deciding where the border lines were drawn after WW1. We decided the geography the way we did because it creates a diversion. Israel become the more immediate enemy to those neighboring hostile regimes. They can hit Israel...and that in some minor way distracts them from focusing their efforts on us, at least more the majority of the time.

Why else is it worth it for the US to maintain the relationship?
Well, Israel fights against our enemy. Albeit for the purpose of its own survival, Israel has to deal with its neighbors...which reduces the amount of work we need to do. Ultimately, a lot of the funding still comes from the US, but the actual fighting can be done by Israelis...who by the way, are pretty damn good fighters.

For both parties, its a strategic relationship. We gain an ally in a region where we have none. they gain a powerful investor with an underlying interest in defending them. End result.....Israel survives...the US has a sovereign nation running interference for us.

There is more to it than all this...the political relationships run deeper I am certain, but in a nutshell, this is the only viable theory I have seen that lends some credibility to the past 50 years of our interests over there. Of course, this could all be bullshit as well....what do I know...im not working in intelligence.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:49:58 AM EST
They are the enemy of our enemy:

"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:51:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By row:
Because they are the chosen race and this is a Christian nation. It's our religious duty.



Let's not get this locked arguing religious semantics please. That's another thread.

I asked their role in the biblical apocolypse with America as an ally or an enemy from someone with more insight than I on the matter. Arguing semantics and principles of a personal interpetation will turn this thread to garbage, at which time it will be locked for the inevitable personal attacks that always follow.

Let's try to have one decent thread without the arguments, please? Debate and argument are two different things, and how we word our statements dictates the path the thread will take.

Thanks in advance, bro.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:51:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Or better put, if we supply their military do we get anything out of it besides an ally in the Middle East that owes us one?




What more could you ask for, when that putrid region is so awash in oil?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:56:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Yeah, but why? I've wondered about this for a long time as well. It seems like a pretty one-sided relationship to me, with the US always standing up for Israel, and Israel doing nothing in return.



My personal opinion is that they provide us interference.
I know what you are asking, because i asked the same question for years...

<snip>

There is more to it than all this...the political relationships run deeper I am certain, but in a nutshell, this is the only viable theory I have seen that lends some credibility to the past 50 years of our interests over there. Of course, this could all be bullshit as well....what do I know...im not working in intelligence.



That makes some sense of it then. I never considered the "interference" aspect. Thanks for the insight.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:02:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Or better put, if we supply their military do we get anything out of it besides an ally in the Middle East that owes us one?




What more could you ask for, when that putrid region is so awash in oil?



Do we get oil from them? Honest question. I really am that stupid that I don't know what their export products are. This is the type of personal ignorance I am trying to change.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:03:36 AM EST
Remeber the USS Liberty. Israel is not our friend.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:05:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Or better put, if we supply their military do we get anything out of it besides an ally in the Middle East that owes us one?




What more could you ask for, when that putrid region is so awash in oil?



Do we get oil from them? Honest question. I really am that stupid that I don't know what their export products are. This is the type of personal ignorance I am trying to change.



We don't actually "get" much from Israel at all.

I see the U.S. support or Israel as being more a matter of principle than of exchange.



As an aside, does anyone know why the U.S. doesn't have huge airbases and ports in Israel? Is it because it wasn't really needed - with airbases in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries? Or because the Israeli's didn't want them, or what?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:06:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Do we get oil from them? Honest question. I really am that stupid that I don't know what their export products are. This is the type of personal ignorance I am trying to change.




No, we don't.

However, they act like the control rods in a nuclear reactor. Imagine what that region would be like if they WEREN'T there to scare the hell out of the Arabs and keep them under SOME semblance of control.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:08:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"



Are you serious?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:13:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Yeah, but why? I've wondered about this for a long time as well. It seems like a pretty one-sided relationship to me, with the US always standing up for Israel, and Israel doing nothing in return.



My personal opinion is that they provide us interference.
I know what you are asking, because i asked the same question for years...

Why does the US provide so much support to Israel?
We give them arms, money, and political leverage.
What do we get in return?

Well, for one thing, we get them to be the primary target for all of Islamic middle eastern regimes.
History isnt my strongest subject, but IIRC, the US had a lot to do with deciding where the border lines were drawn after WW1. We decided the geography the way we did because it creates a diversion. Israel become the more immediate enemy to those neighboring hostile regimes. They can hit Israel...and that in some minor way distracts them from focusing their efforts on us, at least more the majority of the time.

Why else is it worth it for the US to maintain the relationship?
Well, Israel fights against our enemy. Albeit for the purpose of its own survival, Israel has to deal with its neighbors...which reduces the amount of work we need to do. Ultimately, a lot of the funding still comes from the US, but the actual fighting can be done by Israelis...who by the way, are pretty damn good fighters.

For both parties, its a strategic relationship. We gain an ally in a region where we have none. they gain a powerful investor with an underlying interest in defending them. End result.....Israel survives...the US has a sovereign nation running interference for us.

There is more to it than all this...the political relationships run deeper I am certain, but in a nutshell, this is the only viable theory I have seen that lends some credibility to the past 50 years of our interests over there. Of course, this could all be bullshit as well....what do I know...im not working in intelligence.



This is an excellent post and I do believe the heart of the matter. We have an ally in an area full of enemies.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:19:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 7:36:59 AM EST by whoanelly]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"



Are you serious?



The quote is legit, if that's what you are asking. It's been used as propaganda by Muslim extremists like Qutb, ibn al-Taymiyya, and OBL himself.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:20:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Do we get oil from them? Honest question. I really am that stupid that I don't know what their export products are. This is the type of personal ignorance I am trying to change.




No, we don't.

However, they act like the control rods in a nuclear reactor. Imagine what that region would be like if they WEREN'T there to scare the hell out of the Arabs and keep them under SOME semblance of control.



OK, that makes perfect sense. Kind of like living in a bad neighborhood with a cop as a neighbor. A little security in a mess of evil.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:21:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
4) The fractures between Israeli and Arab/Muslim are geographic, cultural, racial, and (most importantly) VERY, VERY OLD. There is no simple solution, especially when one side's stated goal has been the elimination of the other (guess which side THAT was).



I would say wrong. Classically, both are semitic. I won't get into the whole biblical Cain's children = Arabs thing, however, the Palestinians and Israelis have a lot more in common than you think. Heck, even their tastes in music, attire, and of course food are the same!
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:22:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By whoanelly:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"



Are you serious?



The quote is legit, if that's what you are asking. It's been used as propaganda by Muslim extemists like Qutb, Taymiyya, and OBL himself.



So, in essence, the quote means that they will see God only after they kill all the Jews?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:25:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
All of the recent Middle East stuff has made one thing very clear to me: I am no where near as knoweldgable on the subject as I should be. I am not surprised, as I spent the better part of my life with my head buried in the sand rather than educating myself on what my conservative values meant outside the 2nd A I support. I am now dedicated to soaking up as much information as I can.

So before you go flaming me, try to understand that I have already kicked myself in the butt and now seek to right that ignorance I once praticed.

Just how powerful are the Armed Forces of Israel, and how strong is our relationship with them? Is Iran our only common enemy, or does it run much deeper than that? If the SHTF with some real level of severity, how good of a team would we make? How much can they actually supplement our military endeavors?

Also, Israel is a major player in the biblical apocolyptic predictions, is it not? What are the religious speculations of our relationship with them in the second coming of Christ? Are we to be their allies, or their enemies?

Just interject whatever thoughts you have so I can supplement my own research. Links would be appreciated, but only credible ones. If I wanted fallacy, I'd of used my troll account at DU to ask this question, rather than opening myself up to scrutiny here.

Thanks for any and all insight and schooling in advance.



and while we're at it.......Will someone also explain why, after Israel's creation as a jewish state in 1948, the United States has so VEHEMENTLY defended it?.....What do WE GET FROM ISRAEL?....Israelis fly American Apaches, drive American M1 Abrahms, shoot M16s/M4s......besides the business aspect of Military trade......WHAT DOES ISRAEL DO FOR US?



Nothing at all. Your tax dollars (and mine too, in the past, as I am an American) pay for the survival of that nation in that endless circle of hate that is that region. I don't support either of them. If I would have to chose, I would favor the Israelis, but not by much. As much as I hate the Muslim terrorist organizations, I also hate the המוסד למודיעין ולתפקידים מיוחדים (Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations, aka: Mossad), especially their Metsada division.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:27:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By whoanelly:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"



Are you serious?



The quote is legit, if that's what you are asking. It's been used as propaganda by Muslim extemists like Qutb, Taymiyya, and OBL himself.



So, in essence, the quote means that they will see God only after they kill all the Jews?



For those Muslims who believe in their own version of the Apocolypse, yes. The Age of Sacred Terror by Daniel Benjamin and Steven Simon does a good job explaining the history of Islam, and how Muslims in the age of the Caliphate actually PROTECTED Jews, until the Muslims lost a lot of their power and a more "fundamental" version of Islam became mainstream. The rest, as they say, is history.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:27:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By TravisM1:

Originally Posted By kpel308:
I, in general, support Israel and the Israelis, with the caveat that I know they will do anything to protect their own interests, i.e.: Jonathan Pollard, the Liberty "mistake", and the assassination of Gerald Bull.

I am much more inclined to be favorable to the Israelis than to the Palestinians or Arabs. After all, they took care of that Iraqi nuke plant back in the early 80's, so we didn't have to.



Yeah, but why? I've wondered about this for a long time as well. It seems like a pretty one-sided relationship to me, with the US always standing up for Israel, and Israel doing nothing in return.



Oh, but they are well willing to sell our military tech. to China and other nations whom we would rather prefer not to have such information.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:29:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By whoanelly:

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By whoanelly:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"



Are you serious?



The quote is legit, if that's what you are asking. It's been used as propaganda by Muslim extemists like Qutb, Taymiyya, and OBL himself.



So, in essence, the quote means that they will see God only after they kill all the Jews?



For those Muslims who believe in their own version of the Apocolypse, yes. The Age of Sacred Terror by Daniel Benjamin and Steven Simon does a good job explaining the history of Islam, and how Muslims in the age of the Caliphate actually PROTECTED Jews, until the Muslims lost a lot of their power and a more "fundamental" version of Islam became mainstream. The rest, as they say, is history.



And this is what the radical fundamentalists like OBL and the rest of the terrorists believe? That they must kill Americans AND kill all the Jews, and then the second comind of [their] Christ will happen?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:31:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 7:33:50 AM EST by chapperjoe]







I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:32:24 AM EST
Yes, but don't believe me. Read OBL's own statements. Read what is being taught at the Madrassas. This fight wouldn't end if the US left the region. A lot of people want to simplify this into a territorial conflict, but it is much more broad than that.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:38:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Or better put, if we supply their military do we get anything out of it besides an ally in the Middle East that owes us one?




What more could you ask for, when that putrid region is so awash in oil?



Do we get oil from them? Honest question. I really am that stupid that I don't know what their export products are. This is the type of personal ignorance I am trying to change.



We don't actually "get" much from Israel at all.

I see the U.S. support or Israel as being more a matter of principle than of exchange.



As an aside, does anyone know why the U.S. doesn't have huge airbases and ports in Israel? Is it because it wasn't really needed - with airbases in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries? Or because the Israeli's didn't want them, or what?



1. Principle, or the successful Jewish lobby in Washington and pro-Jewish/Israeli media. Your pick. I don't deny it, they are very skilled at turning public opinion their way. Even I read the New York Times now and then. It's funny though that so many Jews so wholeheartedly support Israel which is in fact a Zionist state, and properly Zionists are as anti-semitic. I guess that it's a matter of compromise. However, having lived in New York long enough, I have seen enough orthodox Jews partake in demonstrations to know that there are more than enough anti-Zionist/anti-Israeli Jews, especially orthodox ones. It's no wonder that the orthodox Jewish element in the Israeli Parliament has at times been prevented from speaking or even kicked out... Israelis =! Jews, or vice versa.

2. My understanding is that Israel was never a fan of the idea and that the US never pushed it too hard. I suppose it has something to do with Israel not wanting to attract undue attention or something (as if it could get worse)? Hell, the Saudis have it hot enough for them already (note several arrests of Wahabis, etc. in Saudi many of whom were planning attacks on US assets) which is why we are moving/moved to Qatar, and other, smaller, more "western" Arab states in the region (Kuwait sorta doesn't mind us).
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:42:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 7:45:34 AM EST by S30V]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif

www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif



I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.



Oh, I can justify it, it just doesn't mean that I have to love it, right? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Why can't one be critical of this? IIRC, Israel would've been crushed in a certain year, in a certain war, if it hadn't been for US, British, and French (IIRC) planes flying airstrikes day and night while the US poured in airlift after airlift of military aid... just a friendly reminder.

Also: I am just curious, but what is your personal take on Jews who oppose Israel and don't want it to exist? Fringe religious sect/group or what?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:44:15 AM EST
What exactly is a "Zionist"?


I personally find the story of the Jewish people very inspiring, from Biblical times to the Warsaw ghetto uprising to their post-1948 history of ass-kicking.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:46:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By whoanelly:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"



Are you serious?



The quote is legit, if that's what you are asking. It's been used as propaganda by Muslim extremists like Qutb, ibn al-Taymiyya, and OBL himself.



That's exactly what I was asking.

Wow.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:47:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 7:49:14 AM EST by S30V]

Originally Posted By whoanelly:
What exactly is a "Zionist"?


I personally find the story of the Jewish people very inspiring, from Biblical times to the Warsaw ghetto uprising to their post-1948 history of ass-kicking.



While I hate quoting from Wikipedia (due to its odd POV's at times) here goes a fairly good blurb:

"Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed at various times in history. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe and the Muslim World during the 19th Century . After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

Since the founding of the State of Israel, the term Zionism has come generally to mean support for Israel. However, a variety of different, and sometimes competing, ideologies that support Israel fit under the general category of Zionism, such as Religious Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, and Labor Zionism. Thus, the term is also sometimes used to refer specifically to the programs of these ideologies, such as efforts to encourage Jewish immigration to Israel. The term Zionism is also sometimes used retroactively to describe the millennia-old Biblical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, which existed long before the birth of the modern Zionist movement. In some cases, the label "Zionist" is also used improperly as a euphemism for Jews in general by those wishing to whitewash anti-Semitism (as in the Polish anti-Zionist campaign)."

Might I also add this part, which is also why I asked chapperjoe about his take on the "Jews against Israel":

"Support for the Zionist movement was not initially a mainstream position in the world Jewish community, and it was actively opposed by many Jewish organizations. While traditional Jewish belief held that Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) was given to the ancient Israelites by God, and that therefore the right of the Jews to that land was permanent and inalienable, most Orthodox groups held that the Messiah must appear before Israel could return to Jewish control, and Reform Judaism (prior to the Holocaust) explicitly rejected Zionism. Still, return to the Land of Israel had remained a recurring theme among generations of diaspora Jews, particularly in Passover and Yom Kippur prayers which traditionally concluded with, "Next year in Jerusalem."

To religious Jews, Aliyah, or emigration to Israel, has always been considered by rabbinic Judaism to be a praiseworthy and mandatory act for Jews according to halakha. Aliyah is included in most versions of the 613 commandments, although not in the widely used version of Maimonides. Maimonides' other writings, however, indicate that he considered return to the Land of Israel a matter of extreme importance for Jews.

From the Middle Ages and onwards a number of prominent Jews (e.g. Nahmanides) and groups (e.g. the students of the Vilna Gaon) emigrated to Israel. Despite this, most Jewish religious leaders were opposed to Zionism before the 1930s. The secular, socialist language used by many pioneer Zionists was contrary to the outlook of most religious Jewish communities, and many religious organisations opposed it, both on the grounds that it was a secular movement, and on the grounds that any attempt to re-establish Jewish rule in Israel by human agency was blasphemous, since (in their view) only the Messiah could accomplish this. There was, however, a small but vocal group of religious Jews that began to develop the concept of Religious Zionism in the 1920s and 1930s under such leaders as Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (the Chief Rabbi of Palestine) and his son Zevi Judah, and gained substantial following during the latter half of the 20th century. Only the desperate circumstances of the 1930s and 1940s converted most (though not all) of these communities to Zionism.


Poster from the Zionist Tarbut schools of Poland in the 1930s. Zionist parties were very active in Polish politics. In the 1922 Polish elections, Zionists held twenty-four seats of a total of thirty-five Jewish parliament members.Secular Jewish opinion was also ambivalent in its attitudes to Zionism. Many argued that Jews should join with other progressive forces in bringing about changes which would eradicate anti-Semitism and make it possible for Jews to live in safety in the various countries where they lived. Before the 1930s, many Jews believed that socialism offered a better strategy for improving the lot of European Jews. In the United States, most Jews embraced the liberalism of their adopted country. In the United States, for example, there were only 12,000 members of Zionist organizations in 1912, out of a Jewish population of 3 million. By 1940, however, there were 171,000 members of Zionist organizations, and by 1942, 80% of American Jews surveyed agreed that a homeland in Palestine was required. [2]

The chain of events between 1881 and 1945, however, beginning with waves of anti-Semitic pogroms in Russia and the Russian-controlled areas of Poland, and culminating in the Holocaust, converted the great majority of surviving Jews to the belief that a Jewish homeland was an urgent necessity, particularly given the large population of disenfranchised Jewish refugees after World War II. Most also became convinced that Palestine was the only location that was both acceptable to all strands of Jewish thought and within the realms of practical possibility. This led to the great majority of Jews supporting the struggle between 1945 and 1948 to establish the State of Israel, though many did not condone violent tactics used by some Zionist groups."
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:48:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif

www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif



I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.



I never said I don't support Israel. I said I don't know about it. I don't even know the difference between Zionist and Orthodox.

I started this thread because I wanted to get educated. I was admitting ignorance and attempting to rectify it.

Do you have information that will help me get educated, or are you here to pick a fight with other posters? Please don't do the latter. I don't want the thread locked.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:51:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif

www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif



I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.





Then educate us, please, or are we unworthy?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:54:47 AM EST
Just to be fair, whoanelly, I might add this quick cut about Anti-Zionism, also from Wikipedia:


Anti-Zionism is often characterized by opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state, for instance by those who advocate a binational state comprising the territories of the State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in which both Jews and Palestinians would be citizens. Other "Anti-Zionists", such as some Palestinian militant groups, call for the total elimination (by whatever means) of Jewish presence in Palestine, which includes the territories of the State of Israel.

While "anti-Zionism" is not defined in modern dictionaries, its use dates back to at least 1902,[citation needed] and it was regularly used in the 1920s and 1930s in relation to events in the British Mandate of Palestine, when some Arab organizations opposed Jewish immigration to the area.[citation needed]

The term has regained wider currency in political debate since the 1970s, as part of the controversy over the Arab-Israeli conflict. Before the Six-Day War of 1967, opposition to the existence of Israel was largely confined to the Arab world. The Soviet Union and its allies took a very negative stance on Israel and on Zionism. Since the 1970s, however, opposition to Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip has led to mounting criticism of Israel, which in turn has fueled the growth of anti-Zionism.[citation needed]

The Society for Rational Peace contends on its website that "Anti-Zionism is the conviction that Israel, of all the world's countries, does not have the right to exist. It is the conviction that the determination of what constitutes Israel's 'secure and defensible borders' should not be made by the Israeli people, either directly or via representation." [1]

Both Zionism and anti-Zionism have been accused of being a form of racism. The UN General Assembly Resolution 4686 rescinded earlier Resolution 3379 assertion that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.



I really recommend both articles, in their full length, both the one on Zionism and the one of anti-Zionism. It is quite an interesting story. The world isn't quite as black and white as some try to make it out to be.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:55:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif

www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif



I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.





Then educate us, please, or are we unworthy?



Yeah, bro, seriously, please do so. We are asking honest questions here, not trolling for arguments. We can't know what we haven't yet learned. Remember, this is MY thread I started and I specifically asked for no trolling and arguing.

Give us your thoughts and opinions. We honestly want to know both sides.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:02:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By S30V:
Just to be fair, whoanelly, I might add this quick cut about Anti-Zionism, also from Wikipedia:


Anti-Zionism is often characterized by opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state, for instance by those who advocate a binational state comprising the territories of the State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in which both Jews and Palestinians would be citizens. Other "Anti-Zionists", such as some Palestinian militant groups, call for the total elimination (by whatever means) of Jewish presence in Palestine, which includes the territories of the State of Israel.

While "anti-Zionism" is not defined in modern dictionaries, its use dates back to at least 1902,[citation needed] and it was regularly used in the 1920s and 1930s in relation to events in the British Mandate of Palestine, when some Arab organizations opposed Jewish immigration to the area.[citation needed]

The term has regained wider currency in political debate since the 1970s, as part of the controversy over the Arab-Israeli conflict. Before the Six-Day War of 1967, opposition to the existence of Israel was largely confined to the Arab world. The Soviet Union and its allies took a very negative stance on Israel and on Zionism. Since the 1970s, however, opposition to Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip has led to mounting criticism of Israel, which in turn has fueled the growth of anti-Zionism.[citation needed]

The Society for Rational Peace contends on its website that "Anti-Zionism is the conviction that Israel, of all the world's countries, does not have the right to exist. It is the conviction that the determination of what constitutes Israel's 'secure and defensible borders' should not be made by the Israeli people, either directly or via representation." [1]

Both Zionism and anti-Zionism have been accused of being a form of racism. The UN General Assembly Resolution 4686 rescinded earlier Resolution 3379 assertion that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.



I really recommend both articles, in their full length, both the one on Zionism and the one of anti-Zionism. It is quite an interesting story. The world isn't quite as black and white as some try to make it out to be.



Let me see if I am reading those right using comparitive terminology.

Israel will play the US. In the US, we have the people that believe this country is Christian. To Isreael, these people would be Zionists, calling the nation of Israel "God's peoples' righful inheritance" as outlined in scripture.

The opposite side, the Orthodox(?) are like the people here in the US that demand separation of church and state? Hence, the USA is somewhat divided, even though we are all Americans (like they are all Jewish). On the one side, we have the Americans who believe America is a Christian nation (Zionists in Isreal); on the other side, we have the anti-Christian group that beleives America should not be founded upon principles of only one religion (the Orthodox). They are all Jewish, but believe in different politics for the country. We are all Americans, but believe in different religions.

Is that right, or should I slap myself?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:02:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif

www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif



I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.





Then educate us, please, or are we unworthy?



Yeah, bro, seriously, please do so. We are asking honest questions here, not trolling for arguments. We can't know what we haven't yet learned. Remember, this is MY thread I started and I specifically asked for no trolling and arguing.

Give us your thoughts and opinions. We honestly want to know both sides.



I think I will give this a +1. I want to be educated too.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:03:23 AM EST
"Zionist" (a bunch of different definitions)

"Anti-Zionist" (another bunch of different definitions)


Sigh..... No wonder they can't get anything done there. They can't even agree on VOCABULARY!
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:04:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 8:05:15 AM EST by S30V]

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Let me see if I am reading those right using comparitive terminology.

Israel will play the US. In the US, we have the people that believe this country is Christian. To Isreael, these people would be Zionists, calling the nation of Israel "God's peoples' righful inheritance" as outlined in scripture.

The opposite side, the Orthodox(?) are like the people here in the US that demand separation of church and state? Hence, the USA is somewhat divided, even though we are all Americans (like they are all Jewish). On the one side, we have the Americans who believe America is a Christian nation (Zionists in Isreal); on the other side, we have the anti-Christian group that beleives America should not be founded upon principles of only one religion (the Orthodox). They are all Jewish, but believe in different politics for the country. We are all Americans, but believe in different religions.

Is that right, or should I slap myself?





I regret having posted at all now. No, it's not you, I just realize it's not a good idea to get involved in such a thread.

ETA: Maybe just slap yourself a little bit. Just a tap.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:06:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
"Zionist" (a bunch of different definitions)

"Anti-Zionist" (another bunch of different definitions)


Sigh..... No wonder they can't get anything done there. They can't even agree on VOCABULARY!



Yeah. Part of the problem. It is really a whole lot more complex than some portray it to be. Hey, you know that there's something really really confusing going down when both sides get called racists and anti-semites...
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:08:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 8:13:23 AM EST by FireControlman]
The role of the United States in the end times has been on my mind since the 3rd grade.

How you look at the world depends on what you believe. Think about this our government years ago was briefed on the end times as per christian beliefs. Why would our government entertain religous beliefs?

As stated in earlier posts we are generally a judeao-christian country and policy makers have personal beliefs that influence U.S. foreign policy, no? There are layers of reasoning for the U.S. backing of Israel and yes I do believe they would turn on us to defend themselves.

I hope and pray we do not turn our backs on Israel, because if we do I'm afraid that could be the very reason why there is no mention of U.S. involvement in biblical prophecy - we simply aren't around or no longer are the super power we are today.

What if the whole reason for the birth of our country was to fulfill bible prophecy. The defeat of nazi Germany and the stage set for the rebirth of Israel and a powerful country to support and help Israel defend itself.

The expulsion of the jews from Spain? 1492? Who was one of the first to step foot in the new world?


Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:11:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By S30V:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Let me see if I am reading those right using comparitive terminology.

Israel will play the US. In the US, we have the people that believe this country is Christian. To Isreael, these people would be Zionists, calling the nation of Israel "God's peoples' righful inheritance" as outlined in scripture.

The opposite side, the Orthodox(?) are like the people here in the US that demand separation of church and state? Hence, the USA is somewhat divided, even though we are all Americans (like they are all Jewish). On the one side, we have the Americans who believe America is a Christian nation (Zionists in Isreal); on the other side, we have the anti-Christian group that beleives America should not be founded upon principles of only one religion (the Orthodox). They are all Jewish, but believe in different politics for the country. We are all Americans, but believe in different religions.

Is that right, or should I slap myself?





I regret having posted at all now. No, it's not you, I just realize it's not a good idea to get involved in such a thread.

ETA: Maybe just slap yourself a little bit. Just a tap.



OK, I have to ask: why the regret? Did I say something that will open a can of worms? If I did, it was completely unknowingly. I was trying to put the terminology into an analogy I could understand better. Granted, there are FAR more details to this, but I was just trying to get the jist, like learning to add before beginning algebra.

Why be afraid to be a part of the thread? As long as everyone minds their P's and Q's, we can all learn something here. Your posted definition is the first hint of the definition of Zionism I had been exposed to.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:11:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 8:23:42 AM EST by chapperjoe]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif

www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif



I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews. Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you. If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship.





Then educate us, please, or are we unworthy?



do your own research.

I'm not hear to defend the state of israel, lets make that clear.

But, if anyone doubts the relationship is two way, they simply DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH. period.

Which neatly coincides with the fact that anti-semitic movements ALWAYS start with the uneducated classes and spurred on by some populist elites, e.g. the jews did this, and not only that, but here's how it affects YOU, the people. Whether it be Jews owning banks and taking the middle classes' money (European anti-semitism), Jews starting wars to take the elite's money (American pre-war anti-semitism, and even now we told bush to invade iraq, right?), Jews worldwide keeping the black muslim man oppressed and stunted (nation of islam anti-semitism) , the Elders of Zion keeping the arab every-man poor despite vast arab resources (post war Islamic anti-semitism), or Jews in a DC lobby sending our money to Israel (modern american anti-semitism).


I could give a rats ass about israel (ETA: the state that is. the people and the land are first and foremost in my heart. The government can suck my ass.). But I see RIGHT through the anti-Israel crowd.


Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:11:54 AM EST
Our relationship with Israel?

We use them; they use us. Our primary consideration is our survival as a nation; the same can be said for the Israelis.

I am amazed when people are surprised that allies of our will do things that are in their best interests but not in our best interests. In the community of nations, it's every man for himself. Sometimes the interests of nations will be the same and sometimes they collide.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:16:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By FireControlman:
The role of the United States in the end times has been on my mind since the 3rd grade.

How you look at the world depends on what you believe. Think about this our government years ago was briefed on the end times as per christian beliefs. Why would our government entertain religous beliefs?

As stated in earlier posts we are generally a judeao-christian country and policy makers have personal beliefs that influence U.S. foreign policy, no? There are layers of reasoning for the U.S. backing of Israel and yes I do believe they would turn on us to defend themselves.

I hope and pray we do not turn our backs on Israel, because if we do I'm afraid that could be the very reason why there is no mention of U.S. involvement in biblical prophecy - we simply aren't around or no longer are the super power we are today.

What if the whole reason for the birth of our country was to fulfill bible prophecy. The defeat of nazi Germany and the stage set for the rebirth of Israel and a powerful country to support and help Israel defend itself.

The expulsion of the jews from Spain? 1492? Who was one of the first to step foot in the new world?

www.israzon.com/products/09/big/T-26_big.jpg



I might be misreading this, but are you saying that there is even a remote possibilty that if the US were to stop supporting Israel, that alone would be sufficient to end the US's superpower-hood?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:18:27 AM EST



Yeah, bro, seriously, please do so. We are asking honest questions here, not trolling for arguments. We can't know what we haven't yet learned. Remember, this is MY thread I started and I specifically asked for no trolling and arguing.



sorry for the tone. I take this personally. Let me jsut end with this:

recent gallup poll (which HILARIOUSLY came out the week of the new Protocol of the elders of Zion, other wise known as the Meashimer smear (Harvard, Chicago Document) - which purported that the Israel lobby CONTROLS congress and directs US Foreign Policy to the DETRIMENT of US interests) numbers:

69% of Americans view Israel favorably. Think about that.

another interesting fact that proves my above point:


Pro-Israel sentiment rises with increased knowledge -- 66 percent of those who follow international affairs ''very closely" support Israel, compared with 52 percent of those who don't pay close attention to foreign news.



some more numbers here, mostly in relations to the Palistinians, but these really don't matter as ANY rational person would prefer the Issraelis over the Pali's in ANY poll, contest, etc......

Link Posted: 4/16/2006 8:18:38 AM EST
Oh and I should mention, I fully support Israel. Plan on vacationing in Israel, wife and I have had wanted to for years. I wear a star of David and my two sons do too. I'm American of hispanic ethnicity. God Bless America. I was spoon fed these beliefs as a child and now as a father I'm a zealot for Israel of my own beliefs. boo-yaaaa
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