[size=4]Saudis deport men for owning Bible[/size=4]
[b]2 Filipinos also caught with Christian music CDs[/b]

Posted: May 21, 2002  1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

Saudi Arabian authorities have deported two Filipino Christians after the pair spent more than a month in prison for possession of a Bible and some Christian CDs, according to Christian Solidarity Worldwide as reported by Assist News Service.

The Bible and CDs were found, says CSW, when police raided the room of Danilo de Guzman, 38, and Benjamin Diaz, 40, in Abqaiq on March 29, 2001.

"A local court sentenced them to a month's imprisonment in April 2001, and a higher court increased their sentence to include 150 lashes in January 2002. De Guzman told CSW … that he was not given a lawyer and that only his company liaison officer was present during the hearings," said a CSW press release.

The release stated the two men were taken from their apartment on April 10 and de Guzman's wife, Evelyn, told CSW that he spoke with her hurriedly on the phone: "He just said, 'Don't worry, God will help us. Take care of the children.'"

CSW said the two men were taken to prison in Abqaiq and were spared the lashes, but were told they would be deported instead, reports Assist News Service.

"In addition, de Guzman paid a fine of 3,500 Saudi Riyals (about 630 pounds), which was made up of 500 Riyals (90 pounds) for the pocket Bible and 500 Riyals for each CD," said CSW.

According to the press release, the men were later transferred to a deportation center in Dammam. After their papers were cleared, they were deported together on a flight to the Philippines, arriving in Manila Sunday morning.

"I'm glad we're all together now," Evelyn said, "and that he is safe and in good health," CSW reported.

According to CSW, De Guzman went to work in Saudi Arabia as an electrical engineer in September 2000, leaving his wife and children, ages 10, 2 and 1, in the Philippines.

The public expression of religious belief other than Islam is forbidden in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, but, according to CSW, senior Saudi officials have repeatedly stated that non-Muslims are free to practice their faith in the privacy of their own homes, reports Assist News Service.

The CSW press release states that over the summer months of 2001, 14 expatriate Christians were detained in connection with their Christian faith in a spate of arrests in Jiddah. The last of these detainees was finally deported at the end of March this year.

Said CSW's Advocacy Director Tina Lambert, "De Guzman and Diaz were imprisoned for exercising their right to worship in private. It is inexcusable that the mere possession of religious materials can lead to job loss and deportation in the Kingdom."

See article at:[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27688[/url]

Eric The(Incredulous)Hun[>]:)]

This is what happens in religious based states.

Can't you also get arrested for preaching Christianity on the streets in Israel?

Post from SteyrAUG -

Arrested? Nope.

Harassed by the Ultra Orthodox? You bet!

But there is freedom of religion that has been written into every Israeli document and law since it was founded.

As a matter of fact it is against Israeli law to desecrate [u]anyone's[/u] religious shrines, books, or other sacred property.

Eric The(Pro-Israeli)Hun[>]:)]

saudi arabia...STILL stuck in the middle ages.

Those morons got off easy - they should have been beheaded in public after Friday Prayer with the rest of the criminals.

I don't know why you people think you can go to a different country and start pissing on the locals and not expect to face retribution.  These dumbshits knew full well that taking a bible into Saudi Arabia is against the law, but they did it anyway and they had to face the consequences!

For instance, if I tried to smuggle a pistol and some ammo into Mexico and got caught, would you really feel sorry for me when I ended up in a Mexican jail?  After all, everybody should be able to own guns!  Or how about the last trip I took to Taiwan - the first thing you see when you step off the JetWay in the Taipei airport is a giant orange banner that says "Drug Trafficers Get The Death Penality In The R.O.C."  So let's say I have a little blow and a couple of joints in my pocket, but hey, I'm not hurting anyone, right?  Then I get caught and executed.  Whose fault is that?

The issue here isn't "the bible."  Rather, it's about stupid fucks who deliberately and intentionally travelled to a foreign country for the purpose of commiting crimes and got caught.  These people don't deserve any sympathy at all.

When my sister in law went to israle on a Christian missions trip, she was EXPRESSLY told NOt to hand out Christian literature, since if she was caught doing so she would be jailed. She was instructed to throw it from the open window of a moving bus.

to a man, all teh Israelists pretty much said "Whadda ya expect?? Chrsitianity is ininimcal to Judaism."

Strange the Israelists  don't cut the Suadis an equal amount of slack. [rolleyes]

Now let's look at what teh Bible says...
[i]
II Timothy 3: 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so (the Jews)persecuted  the prophets which were before you.

Acts 5: 11 - And they departed from the presence of the (Jewish Sanhedrin) council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. [/i]

Hmmm, [b]Steel_Rat[/b], where to begin...

Luckily, simple possession of a Bible is not a capital offense, not even in Midieval Saudi Arabia. Now [u]converting[/u] someone from Islam [u]is[/u] a capital offense!

What a lovely nation!

There is no allegation that they were doing anything than simply possessing a Bible and a couple of Christian music CDs. Do you know anything more?

Actually, we are told time and time again that the Saudis permit the [u]private[/u] worship of [u]all[/u] people and faiths in their country.

[b]Apparently they lied[/b]. But, not to worry, their faith says that lying to an infidel is not lying at all!

Not at all the same, now is it? That's a very bad analogy, IMHO.

Even though the authorities and their own company said that private worship is permitted without exception?

If that's your opinion, then you needn't give them any. Anyone with a brain cell or two will certainly give them all the sympathy they deserve!

The more so, since we permit all faiths to worship freely in this country, as does the Philippine government!

Eric The(Capishe?)Hun[>]:)]

I agree. They know its not allowed and they still do it...

If your goal is to convert... good for you, But pls dont be suprised when are caught..

Can You place your self in harms way by doing your duty to your religion? : [red]YES[/red]
do you have a duty to spread your religion? :[red] Up to you [/red]
Do you have a right to spread your religion? :[red]NO!![/red]

Remind me to tell my lawyer not to let you on my jury.  At least not until you've had your morning coffee or something.



I think you totally misread the article.  They didn't travel to Saudi Arabia for the purpose of committing a crime.  I don't know where you got that idea.  They were there to do engineering work.  They were practicing their religion in the privacy of their own home, which, according to the article, is [b]not[/b] illegal.  

I don't know how you can defend the government on this one.  Unless you know something about this case that the article didn't mention.  Not only were the basic human rights of apparently well-intentioned people violated, but Saudi law circumvented as well, and you stand on the sidelines cheering for their execution.  What's wrong with you, didn't get your nap yet?

Who told your sister that, [b]garandman[/b]?

A policeman, a government official, who?

Zola Levitt, of Dallas, Texas, routinely takes tons of Christians to the Holy Land, where he and his are greeted with open arms by Israeli officials.

When we see films of their travels, they have on the same kind of t-shirts that you would see at the average Southern Baptist summer camp, you know the ones.

Typical Christians, with typical Jesus-themed t-shirts, singing Christian hymns, talking openly about Jesus.

And since you mentioned your sister....

My sister, her husband, and their daughter went to Israel with Zola back in 1985, for two weeks, and they said they never felt threatened by anyone at all.

And everyone 'knew' they were Christians, BTW.

It was pretty obvious.

There is a definite route that all such Christians take, definite places where Christians all gather, and they were not harassed at all.

No, they were not handing out literature, but no one told them they couldn't either!

Eric The(AnecdotalEvidenceProducing)Hun[>]:)]

Oooh, that scary spread of ideas!  Dangerous!  Must be stopped immediately!  Everyone shall cease thinking for themselves and worship as their government tells them.  Government knows all.  Government will take care of you.  Everyone now, "Father Government is good.  I love Father Government."

De Guzman didn't travel to Saudi Arabia to commit crimes; he went there to do electrical engineering work.  

Lighten up...

The reason those phucks are still stuck in the middle ages.. is exactly that... the free flow of ideas [b]is[/b] not allowed.

about the gov telling you what you can and can not do and being the all mighty father... your right [i]it is[/i] that way over there...

dont like it.. dont go... and dont bitch about how your "rights" that dont exist over there were violated..

A little sarcasm is good for making a point.  (As good as writing in all caps with extra exclamation marks.)



Those rights do exist, whether the Saudi government recognizes it or not.  I agree with you about the "don't like it, don't go" part, but that doesn't justify what the Saudi government does.  Particularly so in this case where they broke their own laws.  I don't like tyranny here in America and I don't like it in Saudi Arabia either.  If I can't do anything about it, I'm certainly not going to try to justify it or support it.

[b]cluster, cluster, cluster[/b], where in the article did you read that these two Christian men were spreading their religion?

Do you and [b]Steel_rat[/b] know more about this story than you're telling us?

And suppose for a moment that spreading their religion is precisely what they were doing.

Does that make what was done to them any less offensive to your Western ideals?

Eric The(Lamenting)Hun[>]:)]

In 1995 I was offered a job in Saudi Arabia working on US Army switches on military bases there.

~$100,000 a year plus a signing bonus
A weeks vacation, travel and lodging every three months anywhere in the region while my visa was being renewed
Two weeks vacation, travel and lodging every year.
A bonus for completing a year on site
A bonus for re-signing for another year
A house in the "American compound"
A car
Per diem for food and expenses

I turned this job down because it was in [b][size=5]SAUDI FAAQING ARABIA!![/size=5][/b]

If those guys took the job, that meant that they accepted the fact that they would be going back in time to the 12th century and would be foreign workers in a country where the laws are based on the Koran, that document of peace and love. We've all seen the love that Muslims display for people of the book. They put their heads in the noose for the money the Saudis were paying. Why should anyone be surprised when the Saudis opened the trapdoor under their feet?

No, It is very offensive.... still stand behind the [b] Dont Like it.. Dont Go[/b] line....

They were there to do a job.. A very good paying job at that.. Was it their responsability to know what they can and can not do..
We will assume that by "privite worship" they mean that if you sit down for a cup of water and read the bible to yourself its OK...
If they considre reading to yourself in [i]PUBLLIC[/i] a crime... their house their rules..

Do I like it NO.. Does it matter if I like it or not [b]NO[/b]

Will I put up with the same actions here at home Hell NO...

No, [b]cluster[/b], the Saudi government assures everyone that the private worship of another religion [b]is[/b] protected.

They [u]have[/u] to say that with the number of technical employees that they have to import!

The newsworthiness of this article is that we see what they mean by 'private worship' - nothing!

So these two Philippinos were not at fault in believing not only what their company assured them, but what the Saudi government says on all of its public announcements!

So that should pizz you off even more!

Eric The(IWouldThink!)Hun[>]:)]

Yes but it appears to work VERY well for them! My ex-father-inlaw was over in Reyad(sp)working(Boeing) for a year. He says they have some good things going for them with their laws. They utilize dungeons instead of prisons. Ya screw up they throw ya in and forget about ya! No money WASTED on rehabilitation. They don't have to keep building prisons to house the constantly increasing populations! You can leave your camera,billfold,and a money clip laying on top of your luggage in the airport and leave for 2 hours and it will still  be there when ya get back.Why? They have beheadings on Wednesdays downtown for crimes like THEFT. Try that at the airport in say...New York....They also have other laws that actually work for them too...Imagine that.

I'd rather live in America, thank you very much.  I happen to think that having freedom is worth giving up a little security.

But hey, if oppression and tyranny works for you...right?

--------------
Edited to add:

I don't think that being tough on crime is necessarily a bad thing, although I think there are better ways to go about it than either we or the Saudis use.  What I object to so strongly about the Saudi justice system is the lack of all the things we hold dear from English common law.  Things like trial by jury, presumption of innocence, representation by counsel, right to face your accuser, etc.

NO!!!!!NO!!!!!!!!!NO!!!!!!!! I refuse to hear this!!!! (covering my ears, running around in circles, screaming)

Arabs are ONLY bad...ONLY terrorists....ONLY haters of America....ONLY backwards dirtbgs!!!! The israelists assure me of this!!!! It MUST be true!!!!!!

BULLSHITS... She risked jail only because she threw the books on the head of an Israeli policewoman standing under the bus window...

Yes, [b]deadeye47[/b], what your father told you is most likely true.

But so what?

Brezhnev's Moscow in 1982 was a very, very safe place to be. No crime, no muggings, no rapes.

(Except by the government!)

But, dear Lord in Heaven, don't leave your camera, billfold, money clip and [u]King James Bible[/u] on top of your luggage at the Riyadh Airport!

And it wouldn't be criminals that you would have to worry about, but the police!

Eric The(Amazed)Hun[>]:)]

On the visa application to Israel, you have to affirm you won't prosletyze.  If you do, you violate the conditions of the visa, and you'll be deported.

Both Israel and S.A. are defined by their religions, so I can understand why they don't want Christians coming in and subverting their identity.  But the main difference is that SA denies the human right of worshipping as you please.  

Given that crime statistics aren't available for Saudi Arabia (probably because the Saudis don't publish them) that is absolutely pure conjecture.  In this country, as well as Europe, there is zero evidence that indicates that harsh punishments have a positive effect on crime.  Quite the contrary, crime increases in severity (IOW criminals kill the witnesses so as not to get caught), or the criminals move on to some other form of crime.

What many don't seem to comprehend is that crime is a financial endeavor for criminals, this is how they make their livings.  They aren't going to be intimidated by harsh penalties.  Furthermore, history has consistently proven that harsh penalties for crime often lead to horrendous governmental abuse.  Maybe that's why the Founders in their immense wisdom made Amendment VIII part of the Bill of Rights?  Hmmm..... Come to think of it, half (5) of the Amendments in the BOR are dedicated specifically to the rights of the accused.  Wonder why that might be?

You have to respect other nation's customs when you're their, but that doesn't mean you have to like those nations or have respect for their beliefs in general.

If I could ask GWB one question, it would be, "So, for how much longer do you plan to suck Saudi cock?"

Those rug merchants are not our allies, have never been our allies, and every time GWB says they are I lose a little more respect for the man. And hell, I voted for him and generally like his policies. I probably his biggest fan.

I thought we had this proslytising in Israel thing out about a month ago , but G...man (I refuse to besmirch John C.s memory by using his screen name in full) wants to continue slamming my people in Israel; so let's do it yet again.  ALL PUBLIC ATTEMPTS TO CONVERT OTHERS ARE ILLEGAL IN ISRAEL.  It has nothing to do with Christian discrimination. It is as illegal for a Jew to try converting a Christian or Muslim as it was for his sister (in law?) to do it.  

From my perspective, this man is a vicious, antisemetic SOB, and all his protestations that he just doesn't want his tax money sent is a cover up up for the fact that he's just another hate filled miserable POS trying to cover up his hate by crying "it's only about the money we're sending".  

G.....man, if Jesus of Nazareth was here now, he'd spit in your eye for your hatred!

Hay its their counrty..
why bother.

If we really care we would be driving electric cars now.


In Singapor bubble gum is illegal...
WHO CARES!!!
If you get cought.
Don't complain.
If you don't like the local law.
Don't go there.

Given the left's affinity for protecting and championing the rights of the minority, I can't believe they are sticking up for the Muslim world.  Oh, wait a minute.  The persecuted minority in this case is CHRISTIAN.  Gotcha.  

Perhaps we should have the kingdom replace the word "Bible" in all the laws with "Kwanzaa Pamphlet".  

ROFLMAO!!!!

Actually, in keeping with the concept of freedom, I agree that if they couldn't live by the law where they traveled to, they should have used their ability to choose to not go!

I knew my comment would draw a lil heat. My Ex-Father-in-law went for the money(he made a huge sh!t pot full too!) He came back home to the good-ole U.S.A. and interesting stories came back with him also.I was born in Texas so doubt I would ever want to live outside the U.S. I don't care how much money was involved! Kinda like Jarhead.

Shamayim, for what I experienced in Israel, you cannot be jailed because you converted someone to any other religion, but if you gave him money to change religion yes! You risk up to three years of imprisonement.
The origin of this law come from the days of the Ottoman Empire, when a Ottoman citizien of jewish worship asked a loan and to get the money was requested to convert to Islam.

I LOVE throwing you guys a little rope - you ALWAYS hang yourselves. Here, in your own self-damning words, you prove TWO of my points....



The people in Israel your consider "my (i.e. your) people"  -  that's what we call DIVIDED LOYALTY. If push ever came to shove in US interests vs. Israeli interests, you would have to think for a second who to side with. AND THAT IS ONE SECOND TOO LONG. Like Alec Baldwin, I encourage you to move where your loyalty is NOT in question.

And since its my contention that Arab hatred of the US has MUCH to do with American funding the Israeli economy and giving Isreal the weapons to kill Arabs, US interest are VERY MUCH damaged BY Israeli interests. On the flip side, I encourage Israel to do WHATEVER IT NEEDS TO do to defend itself - but NOT with MY tax dollars or US support.

Again, its your own words - they are "your people." MY people are US citizens who live in the Continental US, Alaska and Hawaii (and abroad) .



I have NO PROBLEM or argument against persecution of Christians. Frankly I think Christians should STOP WHINING about "so and so was a meanie to me." WAAAAAAAHHHHH. Christ TOLD us Christians persecution was sure to come, and the proper Christian response is "to be glad we are counted worthy to suffer for Christ's name" (see my verses above)



My LARGER point has ALWAYS been that its a load of CRAP that Israel is some kind of Democracy (or anything like the USA.) You said it yourself - [b]ALL PUBLIC ATTEMPTS TO CONVERT OTHERS ARE ILLEGAL IN ISRAEL[/b] So much for religious freedom and freedom of speech, the MOST BASIC tenets of the American Bill of Rights. NO ONE ******really***** has those rights in Israel.

The Israelists have been trying to tell me it ain't so, that my sister in law DIDN'T tell me what she told me.

You've proven otherwise, and for that I thank you. Its in your own words.

And BTW, John C. Garand was a great man. [:D] Whether you think that he would like me or not [rolleyes] But like I said, his comments about  the right to a homeland seem more applicable today to the Palestinians than they do to the Israelis. [}:D]

Again - don't get mad at me for repeating your OWN words.

Well, since you never answered ny question from yesterday, [b]garandman[/b], just who was it that told your sister-in-law (I thought it was your sister) that she couldn't hand out any materials?

A policeman? A government official?

Or some Ultra-orthodox civilian?

There is simply no law that Israel has that would prevent someone from handing out any religious material they wanted.

My sister and her family were wearing 'Jesus' t-shirts all over the country, without fear, or any hint at governmental disapproval back in 1985.

If anything, I would imagine the safety and well-being of American Christians visiting Israel have gotten better since then.

Zola Levitt says on his television show that he never feels ill at ease being a converted Jew in Israel!

So what gives?

More anti-Israeli propaganda? Or what?

Eric The(Disbelieving)Hun[>]:)]

Garandman, the only thing you proof with your speech is the ability to built narrow sillogisms.

That's all.

Question: what will you say if Muslim will be a majority (it's an example... but I could choose another religion,let say Baha'i or Buddists) end there will be a US President of Muslim worship and a Muslim majority in the US Congress and a Muslim majority in the US Senate?
What if in a country that has been almost always with Protestant Christians President and majority?
What will be the value of the Constitution, based on another G-d and not on Allah?
Would you be so prone to say "It's the US Constitution that grant it. It's ok."?

Just curious...

[b]garandman[/b], go to this website and you will see a whole lot of what I am always talking about when it comes to Christian safety in Israel: [url]http://www.levitt.com/[/url]

Also, Zola gives a pretty nice picture of how one comes to Jesus.

Except that he doesn't mention water baptism, which is odd because he 'baptized' my sister, her husband and their daughter in the Jordan River near Aenon, where John the Baptist traditionally baptized Jesus Christ.

Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]