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Posted: 6/1/2010 5:34:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2010 6:02:52 AM EDT by 45FMJoe]
I went to the range with my girlfriend yesterday, I shot my M&P9 and she shot my Glock 19. I'm having a lot of difficulty being able to consistently find the 10 ring with my fullsize M&P9 at distances past 7 yards. I have never shot with Novak sights before, and I'm wondering if this is the culprit. At first I thought it was me so I unloaded a magazine with my 19 and all shots were in a small fist sized group in the center of the target just where they should be. Back to the drawing board. I eventually started to get better with the M&P but nowhere near the level of proficiency I have with my 19. Would a better rear sight help me? I forgot to add I hate three dot sights. Should I grab the 10-8 or Warren Tactical sight or something else? I start the firearms training portion of the police academy in three weeks so I would like to get this ironed out since I'm taking my M&P through the academy.





What sayeth the hive?

 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 5:36:29 AM EDT
Shoot the gun more. Get used to the sights.
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 5:38:44 AM EDT
You are supposed to cover the center of your target with the center dot ala night sights. I don't have a problem with my M&P or my Ed Brown with Novak's. I say more practice.
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 5:39:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 5:41:42 AM EDT
I had a hard time with the M&P accuracy wise when I got mine. I was used to a single stack 1911 and I could take the nads off a mosquito with that thing.



The duty size M&P 9 had a vastly different trigger and was considerably lighter. It made me work harder to pull the trigger straight back without moving the gun.



I am now used to it, but at first I was sure the darned thing was sighted in wrong... nope.



Standard factory sights on mine, but I'm thinking of going to a 10-8 rear.
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 5:42:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2010 6:03:04 AM EDT by vanilla_gorilla]


Disregard. I see what you said below.



However, I don't understand how you're doing it.





Sent you an IM earlier.



Link Posted: 6/1/2010 5:54:11 AM EDT



Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

I went to the range with my girlfriend yesterday, I shot my M&P9 and she shot my Glock 19. I'm having a lot of difficulty being able to consistently find the 10 ring with my fullsize M&P9 at distances past 7 yards. I have never shot with Novak sights before, and I'm wondering if this is the culprit. At first I thought it was me so I unloaded a magazine with my 19 and all shots were in a small fist sized group in the center of the target just where they should be. Back to the drawing board. I eventually started to get better with the M&P but nowhere near the level of proficiency I have with my 19. Would a better rear sight help me? I forgot to add I hate three dot sights. Should I grab the 10-8 or Warren Tactical sight or something else? I start the firearms training portion of the police academy in three weeks so I would like to get this ironed out since I'm taking my M&P through the academy.



What sayeth the hive?




Are you shooting by lining up the three dots, or by using the tip of the front sight?



Always tip of the front sight. Most of my shots were just to the left, or slightly high and left. When I adjusted my stance a bit I was able to find the bullseye with a bit more regularity.



 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:03:11 AM EDT



Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:



Disregard. I see what you said below.



However, I don't understand how you're doing it.







I'm at a complete loss, myself.



 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:05:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2010 6:06:23 AM EDT by postban]





Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:



.. I forgot to add I hate three dot sights. Should I grab the 10-8 or Warren Tactical sight or something else? ...





What sayeth the hive?



I have 10-8 on mine, I don't like them much better than stock. Just something about them for some reason. Going with Heinie LEDGE Straight 8's which are being delivered today.










I have three dot Meprolight on my G19 and they are fine, cant really explain it.





 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:06:54 AM EDT
At 7 yds, not sure if brand of ammo would be the case.  Maybe try different brand/gr wt of bullet?
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:10:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
I went to the range with my girlfriend yesterday, I shot my M&P9 and she shot my Glock 19. I'm having a lot of difficulty being able to consistently find the 10 ring with my fullsize M&P9 at distances past 7 yards. I have never shot with Novak sights before, and I'm wondering if this is the culprit. At first I thought it was me so I unloaded a magazine with my 19 and all shots were in a small fist sized group in the center of the target just where they should be. Back to the drawing board. I eventually started to get better with the M&P but nowhere near the level of proficiency I have with my 19. Would a better rear sight help me? I forgot to add I hate three dot sights. Should I grab the 10-8 or Warren Tactical sight or something else? I start the firearms training portion of the police academy in three weeks so I would like to get this ironed out since I'm taking my M&P through the academy.

What sayeth the hive?


Are you shooting by lining up the three dots, or by using the tip of the front sight?

Always tip of the front sight. Most of my shots were just to the left, or slightly high and left. When I adjusted my stance a bit I was able to find the bullseye with a bit more regularity.
 



That sounds more like trigger control than a sight issue.

Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:11:01 AM EDT



Originally Posted By CRsmoker250:


At 7 yds, not sure if brand of ammo would be the case.  Maybe try different brand/gr wt of bullet?


It was Federal ammo, so I can pretty much rule that out. Besides, I was able to get some solid bullseye hits at 15 yards later in the day with a different stance. I'm just not sure why. I'm befuddled if you will.



 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:25:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:26:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:29:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By jmarkma:
That sounds more like trigger control than a sight issue.
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7200/mainphpg2viewcoreb.jpg


I loathe that chart. As a diagnostic tool I've always found it to be next to worthless.


Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:36:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:36:35 AM EDT



Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

Always tip of the front sight. Most of my shots were just to the left, or slightly high and left. When I adjusted my stance a bit I was able to find the bullseye with a bit more regularity.





What sort of sights are you used to using? In other words, on the sights you are used to do you have a wide rear notch with lots of light around the front sight, or a narrow rear notch with very tiny amounts of light around the front sight?


Well, I find the factory plastic Glock sights to be very easy to shoot. I guess those would be a wider rear notch?



 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:38:14 AM EDT



Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

It was Federal ammo, so I can pretty much rule that out. Besides, I was able to get some solid bullseye hits at 15 yards later in the day with a different stance. I'm just not sure why. I'm befuddled if you will.





If the way you were seeing your sights wasn't different, it's possible that with the different "stance" (by "stance" do you mean grip? As in you took a firmer grip?) you had a firmer grip, which could have compensated for a tendency to push the gun left during the trigger pull.



How is your finger on the trigger? Ideally the trigger should be slightly to the left of the pad of your trigger finger. If you are pulling the trigger with the first joint of your finger you can actually push the gun to the left as your finger curls in toward your hand because of the leverage you are putting on the gun. Using only the pad of your trigger finger reduces the amount of torque you can put on the gun, which makes it harder to move with trigger press.


No, I literally changed my shooting stance as well which made the sights somewhat easier to see and I was using the pad of my finger.



 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:44:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2010 6:48:25 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:44:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By jmarkma:
That sounds more like trigger control than a sight issue.
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7200/mainphpg2viewcoreb.jpg


I loathe that chart. As a diagnostic tool I've always found it to be next to worthless.



It did work for me once upon a time.

Though I just use it as a place to look for possible causes, I understand that it won't give you the answer without seeing what a shooter is doing.
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 6:58:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2010 7:09:18 AM EDT by 45FMJoe]





Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:





Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:


Well, I find the factory plastic Glock sights to be very easy to shoot. I guess those would be a wider rear notch?








Ah. No, factory Glock sights don't have a wide rear notch. They have a narrow rear notch and a fucking huge front sight. Here's something you can do for fun...someday when you've taken those plastic slot fillers off the gun actually try and put the front sight in the rear notch of the Glock sights. You'll find that the front sight is actually WIDER than the rear notch. Ain't that just a bowl of peaches?





The Novak sights are predicated upon a sight picture that is a bit more sane. They will have a wider rear notch around the front sight than you're used to on the Glock sights. With the wider notch it can sometimes be more difficult to tell that your sights are slightly misaligned. I use Warren sights on my M&P's. Warrens have a massively open rear notch which is great for helping to track the sights at speed, but when shooting bullseye if I don't pay very close attention to my sights I can easily push shots to the left or the right...or high...because I don't have the front sight situated exactly right in the rear notch. At closer ranges this isn't much of a problem because even with a misaligned sight picture you can still hit more or less the center of the target. At 15 yards and beyond, however, these slight misalignments start to throw shots way off.





Try getting an absolute hard focus on the front sight, even if you have to close one eye to do it. Get a perfect sight alignment (top of front sight even with top of rear, equal amounts of light on both sides of the front sight) and keep it while executing a perfect trigger press. See if that doesn't get you on target.
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:


No, I literally changed my shooting stance as well which made the sights somewhat easier to see and I was using the pad of my finger.








I'm at a loss to understand how a change in stance made your sights easier to see, but if that's what's allowing you to see what you need to see to put bullets where they need to go, rock on.





When it comes to these sorts of things the first question is whether it's you or the gun. I think we've established that it's something about you...then we have to figure out what. With that last statement I think we can say that it's probably the way you are seeing the sights more than anything else. Somehow you are misaligning the sights.





Let me ask you this: When you normally shoot, what is the lighting like? Bright sunlight on an outdoor range? Poorly lit indoor range? Etc. When you were shooting the M&P were you under the same conditions as you normally shoot?



Indoor ranges with piss poor lighting are the norm here in Tampa, unfortunately.







But, I believe you are correct. Since I was just slightly pushing everything to the left, your diagnosis makes a lot of sense. Even when I wasn't hitting the little 3" Shoot-n-see, my groups were still not much larger than a fist just off to the left a hair. So I just need to get used to a wide notch rear sight. Like you said, I'm sure it's me .. and my problem is adjusting to the sights. I shifted my stance a little bit (which truthfully was probably more like I corrected my stance) and when I was able to see the sights better I drilled the tiny bullseye of the Shoot-n-see at 15 yards with my first shot.





I took Randy Cain's Tactical Handgun 101 class a couple years ago, and I haven't been able to practice much in the past year or so. I'm sure it is just me getting sloppy, and the academy will be a "refresher" course for me. I was just curious if there were better sight options for the M&P but it looks like they will all have the same effect until I adapt to the wide rear notch.



ETA - Getting the front post sharply in focus was a bit difficult, as well. I think I'm a fan of shorter sight radii.






 
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 7:15:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2010 7:21:49 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 7:17:54 AM EDT
Those groups are almost identical to mine at the 15 yard line, I just had a little bigger bullseye.

Link Posted: 6/1/2010 7:44:21 AM EDT
I find the OEM rear sight on the M&P to be one of the worst sights I've ever used.   There are lot's of little angles and corners that reflect light and cause your sight alignment to be slightly off, depending on where the light is coming from.

I got the 10-8 rear sight and it is a HUGE improvement.  If you don't like that particular one, get any rear sight with a flat serrated surface.

I also find the 3 dots to be a distraction.  I use plain black rear with the white dot blacked out on the front.

John
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 7:49:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 4:04:47 AM EDT
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