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Posted: 9/4/2013 5:09:50 AM EST
Welcome to another exposition of Biblical and historical support of Catholic thought. In a recent, now locked thread, we discussed the concept of 'assurance' related to salvation. There was obvious disagreement on many of the points. Many hold to the 'blessed assurance' philosophy that when a believer professes faith he/she is 'assured' of salvation. I have heard this described as an 'inability to lose [their] witness.' Many are familiar with the phrase 'once saved, always saved.' As Catholics, we believe that we have freedom of choice. We can accept or reject the merciful offer of God at any time.

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. “For freedom Christ has set us free.”34 In him we have communion with the “truth that makes us free.”35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”36 Already we glory in the “liberty of the children of God.”

1742...... By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world: (2002, 1784)

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

I plan to post a series of Scripture demonstrating the typology of the Old Testament and then the message of the New Testament. I do not plan giving any lengthy discussion with each post, only a very brief commentary. I hope that all will enjoy.
Link Posted: 9/4/2013 5:17:40 AM EST
1 Samuel 11:6 And the spirit of the Lord came upon Saul, when he had heard these words, and his anger was exceedingly kindled.

1 Samuel 18:10 And the day after the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of his house. And David played with his hand as at other times. And Saul held a spear in his hand, 11 And threw it, thinking to nail David to the wall: and David stept aside out of his presence twice. 12 And Saul feared David, because the Lord was with him, and was departed from himself.

These verses shown in sequence show that the spirit of the Lord was with Saul originally. Then, if you are familiar with the story, David finds success, Saul is jealous and the Lord left Saul.

Link Posted: 9/4/2013 5:30:42 PM EST
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:3-14

Predestined to salvation in Christ. No decision. No free will.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 4:15:01 AM EST
It's not often I have much in the way of agreement to bring to Catholic belief discussions, but this is one where I'm on board.

To the previous poster:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This and the Parable of the Sower don't point to a 'once saved always saved' type belief in the early church.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:20:03 AM EST
Ezekial 18:21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die.22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die.

Ezekial 33:17 And the children of thy people have said: The way of the Lord is not equitable: whereas their own way is unjust. 18 For when the just shall depart from his justice, and commit iniquities, he shall die in them.
19 And when the wicked shall depart from his wickedness, and shall do judgments, and justice: he shall live in them.

Last of the OT stuff.

BTW quotes are from Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:21:31 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AR15thur:
It's not often I have much in the way of agreement to bring to Catholic belief discussions, but this is one where I'm on board.

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I would love to have a conversation about this sometime. Maybe we can start another thread at some point.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:55:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:


I would love to have a conversation about this sometime. Maybe we can start another thread at some point.
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
It's not often I have much in the way of agreement to bring to Catholic belief discussions, but this is one where I'm on board.



I would love to have a conversation about this sometime. Maybe we can start another thread at some point.


I've been reading your posts on the subject and some of it I agree with or understand, some I don't. For the most part, my main points of contention is Saint adoration (and the amount of energy put into deeming someone a Saint, and for that matter, a lot of the "pomp" that I see in Catholicism...lots of debate about the Pope's shoes online for instance...too long didn't read; RC's seem to make much ado about nothing at times), I also have some issues with the manner/form of communion in the RCC, and I would possibly disagree with the means of 'process' that you're speaking of, as I don't believe any certain set of actions or rituals will bring you closer to God, but rather a transformation in the way that you live. I feel that the actions/rituals mindset leads to people saying they "practice" Catholicism or religion in general. It's not something you really put down and pick up to have a go at when the mood fits.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:13:14 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AR15thur:
It's not often I have much in the way of agreement to bring to Catholic belief discussions, but this is one where I'm on board.

To the previous poster:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This and the Parable of the Sower don't point to a 'once saved always saved' type belief in the early church.
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I don't believe in once saved always saved. The scriptures deal with people leaving the faith too much. I guess I'll state my position right clear. I'm a Lutheran, which pretty much means I'm a one and a half point Calvinist.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 8:21:18 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AR15thur:


I've been reading your posts on the subject and some of it I agree with or understand, some I don't. For the most part, my main points of contention is Saint adoration (and the amount of energy put into deeming someone a Saint, and for that matter, a lot of the "pomp" that I see in Catholicism...lots of debate about the Pope's shoes online for instance...too long didn't read; RC's seem to make much ado about nothing at times), I also have some issues with the manner/form of communion in the RCC, and I would possibly disagree with the means of 'process' that you're speaking of, as I don't believe any certain set of actions or rituals will bring you closer to God, but rather a transformation in the way that you live. I feel that the actions/rituals mindset leads to people saying they "practice" Catholicism or religion in general. It's not something you really put down and pick up to have a go at when the mood fits.
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Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
It's not often I have much in the way of agreement to bring to Catholic belief discussions, but this is one where I'm on board.



I would love to have a conversation about this sometime. Maybe we can start another thread at some point.


I've been reading your posts on the subject and some of it I agree with or understand, some I don't. For the most part, my main points of contention is Saint adoration (and the amount of energy put into deeming someone a Saint, and for that matter, a lot of the "pomp" that I see in Catholicism...lots of debate about the Pope's shoes online for instance...too long didn't read; RC's seem to make much ado about nothing at times), I also have some issues with the manner/form of communion in the RCC, and I would possibly disagree with the means of 'process' that you're speaking of, as I don't believe any certain set of actions or rituals will bring you closer to God, but rather a transformation in the way that you live. I feel that the actions/rituals mindset leads to people saying they "practice" Catholicism or religion in general. It's not something you really put down and pick up to have a go at when the mood fits.


All good points. A discussion about the communion of saints or the real Presence would be excellent thread topics. Maybe I can start up something when this thread is finished.

The term process in the context of this thread was more of a response to 'assurance' than a term used by the Church. I think Catholicism and Catholics in general are labeled with that a lot. I would agree with you that spiritual transformation reflected in your way of life is a crucial and definitive sign. Obviously, we would disagree about actions which bring one 'closer to God.' Of course that could mean a lot of different things to different people.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 1:34:46 PM EST
Tag
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 1:36:59 AM EST
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, there cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart: this is he that received the seed by the way side. 20 And he that received the seed upon stony ground, is he that heareth the word, and immediately receiveth it with joy. 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but is only for a time: and when there ariseth tribulation and persecution because of the word, he is presently scandalized. 22 And he that received the seed among thorns, is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choketh up the word, and he becometh fruitless. 23 But he that received the seed upon good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth, and beareth fruit, and yieldeth the one an hundredfold, and another sixty, and another thirty.

As mentioned in a previous post the parable of the sower is pretty direct. I have heard various arguments over the years as to how this is NOT an argument for a continuous process of salvation. I simply don't think such arguments hold water. The words of Jesus are plain here.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 2:21:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2013 2:24:48 AM EST by Mastadon]
I've talked to tons of folks who believe in "once save, always saved." It's the P in John Calvin's TULIP, though people around here who believe that deny that it has any connection to Calvinism.

To those who believe this way I ask, does becoming a Christian carry with it any expectation of changed behavior? If I call myself a disciple of Christ, a Christian, should I expect an obligation to obey the One whom I confess as my Lord? When I am tempted to sin, am I capable of resisting that temptation and, if so, is there a point to doing so?

Any Christian has seen at least one example of a person accepting Christ, then rejecting Him. How many sermons have people heard preached about "backsliding"? If once-saved-always-saved is truth, why do we need sermons to warn against backsliding? A typical response holds that those who confess Jesus, who are baptized and are good Christians but then fall away never truly were saved. They say that salvation is deep within a man's heart, and even though a person who falls away thought that he had faith, he didn't really have faith. If that is true, then we cannot know our own heart and we can never know whether or not we are saved--no matter what we do, we just have to hope for the best at the Judgment Lottery.

Through several conversations with preachers who hold this view, I always get nice metaphors to explain the position, but I never get scripture. They say things like, "Salvation is like being on God's lifeboat. When we fall overboard and into sin, God grabs our hand and never lets us go. We can let go of His hand, but He never lets go of ours." That's nice, and I'm sure it's comforting to the "Christian" who enjoys Hookers and Blow Thursdays down at the strip joint, but I can never get those who teach this to point me to scripture to back it up.

However:

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Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
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Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


2 Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 3:12-15
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


There are many more scriptures in which we are told we can fall from salvation, but I don't have time to post them at the moment. Bear in mind that these epistles were written to Christian congregations. They were written to the various churches to correct them and to tell them how they should behave. Why would Paul and the other writers waste their time writing to exhort the churches to remain true to the faith if once saved, always saved were truth? Once saved, always saved are some dice I don't want to roll.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 2:50:37 AM EST
I'll add to my last post this thought which is related to the thread title, but before I do, good thread, OP!

It's almost a fool's argument to talk about the exact moment in which we, individually, are saved just as it is almost a fool's argument to talk about whether or not salvation can be lost. Engaging in these arguments is forgetting that we are constrained by the limits of time, but God exists in eternity outside of time. To God, past, present and future are all the same--He can touch and see all moments at once (this is how I conceive of an eternal God, YMMV). Our souls are also eternal--after our time here, we will spend eternity somewhere else, and that somewhere else is determined by whether or not we are "saved".

Christ died once for the salvation of all, so in that sense I am indeed "saved" right now. At least, I have access to salvation right now--I have to believe in the gospel and choose to partake of the New Covenant which was sealed with His blood. Once I make that decision, I can either abide by that decision or I can renounce it. If I renounce it, I can always return because that's what Christ's death did for us. We are imperfect and we are prone to sin, but Christ's sacrifice allows us to come to God through Him and be judged righteous despite our transgressions.

Renunciation of that covenant can be as simple as committing one sin or it can include falling away and living in sin for years. If I am truly repentant, God forgives me because Christ died for me. Do we not ask God to forgive us in our prayers? I have quite a few brethren who were raised as Christians but then fell away in their young adulthood. They went out and lived the party lifestyle, didn't attend worship and generally forsook their faith. In time, they realized the error of their ways and returned. Now, they are some of the most faithful people I know--they have seen both sides of the fence and their conviction is stronger than ever. It's the parable of the prodigal son.

That said, we do live under a covenant with God. It's the New Covenant and it represents the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. The Bible presents a full covenant cycle--the Old Testament--which serves as an example for us today. God made a promise to Abraham, that he would give some land to his children. God made good on that promise. However, the Israel and Judah rejected this covenant. They failed to keep the law, they worshiped idols, they consorted with the godless nations, etc. What was the result? A return to slavery in Assyria and in Babylon and in Persia. They lost the land that God had promised. Did they lose their land because God is a welsher? No! They lost their land because they abandoned the covenant. When they repented and came back to God, what happened? God restored them.

We can do the same thing today. We can abandon the New Covenant. It is in place and it will remain in place until this world ends, and like the Israelites, we can accept and abandon it. We can also return to it--or we can fail to return to it. Coming and going, sinning and repenting all take place within the context of time. What is the reward for salvation? Eternal life with God in heaven. What is the price of disobedience? Eternal punishment. When we are saved, we are talking about something that exists in eternity. Sinners and saints all live in the same conditions in this world. The difference between the saved and the rebellious will be clear in eternity. This is why I regard salvation as an "eternal" commodity, not something that we enjoy here. Yes, we enjoy the blessings of being Christ's servants, and there are very real benefits to being a Christian here in this world.

However, salvation is far more than a simply checking a box. It is far more than just flipping the salvation switch. It is the process of living a life in Christ, which means abiding by the New Covenant. Jesus taught that those who love Him do his commands, and that we are his friend IF we do whatever he commands. If we do not love Him, we are not partakers of the covenant that He instituted. Salvation is something that happens when God judges us righteous despite our sins because we chose during our time here in this world to live under the New Covenant as Christians who obey the commands of their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It is not something that I receive, throw in a closet, then carry on as usual. Salvation is not a trinket that I put on the shelf or in the safe and am then secure in doing whatever I please because I possess it. To believe that is a very dangerous proposition.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 3:08:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Mastadon:
I'll add to my last post this thought which is related to the thread title, but before I do, good thread, OP!

It's almost a fool's argument to talk about the exact moment in which we, individually, are saved just as it is almost a fool's argument to talk about whether or not salvation can be lost. Engaging in these arguments is forgetting that we are constrained by the limits of time, but God exists in eternity outside of time. To God, past, present and future are all the same--He can touch and see all moments at once (this is how I conceive of an eternal God, YMMV). Our souls are also eternal--after our time here, we will spend eternity somewhere else, and that somewhere else is determined by whether or not we are "saved".

Christ died once for the salvation of all, so in that sense I am indeed "saved" right now. At least, I have access to salvation right now--I have to believe in the gospel and choose to partake of the New Covenant which was sealed with His blood. Once I make that decision, I can either abide by that decision or I can renounce it. If I renounce it, I can always return because that's what Christ's death did for us. We are imperfect and we are prone to sin, but Christ's sacrifice allows us to come to God through Him and be judged righteous despite our transgressions.

Renunciation of that covenant can be as simple as committing one sin or it can include falling away and living in sin for years. If I am truly repentant, God forgives me because Christ died for me. Do we not ask God to forgive us in our prayers? I have quite a few brethren who were raised as Christians but then fell away in their young adulthood. They went out and lived the party lifestyle, didn't attend worship and generally forsook their faith. In time, they realized the error of their ways and returned. Now, they are some of the most faithful people I know--they have seen both sides of the fence and their conviction is stronger than ever. It's the parable of the prodigal son.

That said, we do live under a covenant with God. It's the New Covenant and it represents the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. The Bible presents a full covenant cycle--the Old Testament--which serves as an example for us today. God made a promise to Abraham, that he would give some land to his children. God made good on that promise. However, the Israel and Judah rejected this covenant. They failed to keep the law, they worshiped idols, they consorted with the godless nations, etc. What was the result? A return to slavery in Assyria and in Babylon and in Persia. They lost the land that God had promised. Did they lose their land because God is a welsher? No! They lost their land because they abandoned the covenant. When they repented and came back to God, what happened? God restored them.

We can do the same thing today. We can abandon the New Covenant. It is in place and it will remain in place until this world ends, and like the Israelites, we can accept and abandon it. We can also return to it--or we can fail to return to it. Coming and going, sinning and repenting all take place within the context of time. What is the reward for salvation? Eternal life with God in heaven. What is the price of disobedience? Eternal punishment. When we are saved, we are talking about something that exists in eternity. Sinners and saints all live in the same conditions in this world. The difference between the saved and the rebellious will be clear in eternity. This is why I regard salvation as an "eternal" commodity, not something that we enjoy here. Yes, we enjoy the blessings of being Christ's servants, and there are very real benefits to being a Christian here in this world.

However, salvation is far more than a simply checking a box. It is far more than just flipping the salvation switch. It is the process of living a life in Christ, which means abiding by the New Covenant. Jesus taught that those who love Him do his commands, and that we are his friend IF we do whatever he commands. If we do not love Him, we are not partakers of the covenant that He instituted. Salvation is something that happens when God judges us righteous despite our sins because we chose during our time here in this world to live under the New Covenant as Christians who obey the commands of their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It is not something that I receive, throw in a closet, then carry on as usual. Salvation is not a trinket that I put on the shelf or in the safe and am then secure in doing whatever I please because I possess it. To believe that is a very dangerous proposition.
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I agree. I think I'm misunderstood a lot when I say that salvation is promised to those who believe. If you truly believe and have truly accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you WANT to do what He commands. You don't want to go back to the life of sin you once had, and you battle everyday to live a life that honors God. These verses show that if you "fight the good fight" you will have eternal life. I think if you're not "fighting the good fight" you haven't really accepted Jesus as your Savior, so the two go hand in hand.
Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify my position.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 3:52:16 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
I agree. I think I'm misunderstood a lot when I say that salvation is promised to those who believe. If you truly believe and have truly accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you WANT to do what He commands. You don't want to go back to the life of sin you once had, and you battle everyday to live a life that honors God. These verses show that if you "fight the good fight" you will have eternal life. I think if you're not "fighting the good fight" you haven't really accepted Jesus as your Savior, so the two go hand in hand.
Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify my position.
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
I agree. I think I'm misunderstood a lot when I say that salvation is promised to those who believe. If you truly believe and have truly accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you WANT to do what He commands. You don't want to go back to the life of sin you once had, and you battle everyday to live a life that honors God. These verses show that if you "fight the good fight" you will have eternal life. I think if you're not "fighting the good fight" you haven't really accepted Jesus as your Savior, so the two go hand in hand.
Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify my position.


I think that's exactly right and there is plenty of scripture to back what you've said here. Time after time we hear that we are heirs of an inheritance that is promised. For example:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 10:41:52 AM EST
Romans(NIV) 12:1-2

12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

When it comes to salvation I believe a lot of churches "religions" create their own form of righteousness and try to blend in a worldy outlook and worldy lifestyle with a righteous one. It's because of our sinful nature that Jesus came and died for our sins, so that through Him we can receive salvation, it is a gift.

Ephesians(NIV) 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I believe a lot of "Christians" do not know salvation , or the Lord. They believe the faith that saves us comes at the end of our lives, judgement time. Like we are to live as right as we possibly can and we try to minimize our sins , but not so He is our righteousness and it's by His Grace we are saved, He is a keeper, He will save you completely and continuously save you right now if you let Him. He will not override your will , but His will be done... Matthew 5:6 (NIV) Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matthew 6:33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

The way that some people see salvation I wonder do they even know why Jesus came....

Hebrews 8:6-13

(NIV)6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:“The days are coming, declares the Lord,    when I will make a new covenantwith the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.9 It will not be like the covenant  I made with their ancestorswhen I took them by the hand    to lead them out of Egypt ,because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,    and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel    after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds    and write them on their hearts.I will be their God,    and they will be my people.11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’because they will all know me,    from the least of them to the greatest.12 For I will forgive their wickedness    and will remember their sins no more.”13 By calling this covenant “new,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Romans (NIV) 6:1-2
6 What shall we say, then?Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 12:00:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Mastadon:

I think that's exactly right and there is plenty of scripture to back what you've said here. Time after time we hear that we are heirs of an inheritance that is promised. For example:


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Originally Posted By Mastadon:

I think that's exactly right and there is plenty of scripture to back what you've said here. Time after time we hear that we are heirs of an inheritance that is promised. For example:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



I think inheritance is a very good way to look at it. Esau knows what can happen with an inheritance when you don't take it seriously...
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 1:15:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:


I think inheritance is a very good way to look at it. Esau knows what can happen with an inheritance when you don't take it seriously...
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By Mastadon:

I think that's exactly right and there is plenty of scripture to back what you've said here. Time after time we hear that we are heirs of an inheritance that is promised. For example:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



I think inheritance is a very good way to look at it. Esau knows what can happen with an inheritance when you don't take it seriously...


Continuing the inheritance theme:

Galatians 3:23 Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.


And one only has to look at Christ's interaction with Judean believers to identify Abraham's sons versus not-Abraham's sons

John 8:39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father!” Jesus replied, “If you are Abraham’s children, you would be doing the deeds of Abraham. 8:40 But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth I heard from God. Abraham did not do this! 8:41 You people are doing the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Jesus, “We were not born as a result of immorality! We have only one Father, God himself.” 8:42 Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me. 8:43 Why don’t you understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot accept my teaching. 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 8:45 But because I am telling you the truth, you do not believe me. 8:46 Who among you can prove me guilty of any sin? If I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? 8:47 The one who belongs to God listens and responds to God’s words. You don’t listen and respond, because you don’t belong to God.









Link Posted: 9/6/2013 1:43:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2013 1:45:07 PM EST by ledslngr]
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Originally Posted By sonyvman79:
Romans(NIV) 12:1-2

12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

When it comes to salvation I believe a lot of churches "religions" create their own form of righteousness and try to blend in a worldy outlook and worldy lifestyle with a righteous one. It's because of our sinful nature that Jesus came and died for our sins, so that through Him we can receive salvation, it is a gift.

Ephesians(NIV) 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I believe a lot of "Christians" do not know salvation , or the Lord. They believe the faith that saves us comes at the end of our lives, judgement time. Like we are to live as right as we possibly can and we try to minimize our sins , but not so He is our righteousness and it's by His Grace we are saved, He is a keeper, He will save you completely and continuously save you right now if you let Him. He will not override your will , but His will be done... Matthew 5:6 (NIV) Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matthew 6:33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

The way that some people see salvation I wonder do they even know why Jesus came....

Hebrews 8:6-13

(NIV)6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:“The days are coming, declares the Lord,    when I will make a new covenantwith the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.9 It will not be like the covenant  I made with their ancestorswhen I took them by the hand    to lead them out of Egypt ,because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,    and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel    after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds    and write them on their hearts.I will be their God,    and they will be my people.11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’because they will all know me,    from the least of them to the greatest.12 For I will forgive their wickedness    and will remember their sins no more.”13 By calling this covenant “new,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Romans (NIV) 6:1-2
6 What shall we say, then?Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
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Yes. If you are truly born again, your mind has been renewed, like you quoted. When your mind is renewed by the Holy Spirit you crave something different than your old self, which was sin and self indulgence. Do we immediately live a faithful life that very moment? More than likely not, but the journey should begin right then. I personally saw the world through different eyes, I saw people as God's children that He loves just as much as me. I also saw that there is a spiritual fight going on for us where the enemy is trying to destroy us in any way possible, which is why we should put on the armor of God talked about in Ephesians. You should crave to learn more about Christ and as you do you realize his incomprehensible love for us, and we WANT to be like him. As we learn, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin we have not seen in our lives or have not repented of yet. Then there's the battle with the enemy trying to lure us into sin and away from God, because if you're looking at sin you're looking the exact opposite direction as God. I thank God that He sent us the Holy Spirit to give us strength!
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 3:50:09 PM EST
What of the claim that 'I am saved therefore I am free from sin.?' I see this as a parallel to 'once saved always saved.'
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 4:38:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2013 4:40:33 PM EST by ledslngr]
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
What of the claim that 'I am saved therefore I am free from sin.?' I see this as a parallel to 'once saved always saved.'
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Free from sin and dead to sin is basically the same thing. This goes with having been renewed by the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16-26 explains this.
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 the acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord,jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law. 24 those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Also: Ephesians 2:1-10
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 4:56:41 PM EST
Romans also talks about being dead to sin. Roman 6-8.
Chapter 6 tells about dying to sin, 7 tells about struggles with sin, and 8 tells about Life through the spirit.
Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Does this mean we, as born again Christians, never sin again after we are saved? Absolutely not. Sometimes it's sin that's never been recognized and sometimes its sin that sneaked up on us, or we gave into temptation, or a hundred other scenarios. Sin seperates us from God and himders our relationship with Him. But does that put us back to the same state we were in before we gave our life to God? Absolutely not, that's where grace comes in.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 5:31:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Romans also talks about being dead to sin. Roman 6-8.
Chapter 6 tells about dying to sin, 7 tells about struggles with sin, and 8 tells about Life through the spirit.
Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Does this mean we, as born again Christians, never sin again after we are saved? Absolutely not. Sometimes it's sin that's never been recognized and sometimes its sin that sneaked up on us, or we gave into temptation, or a hundred other scenarios. Sin seperates us from God and himders our relationship with Him. But does that put us back to the same state we were in before we gave our life to God? Absolutely not, that's where grace comes in.
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That was certainly not the tone or the conclusion when this subject was last brought up in this forum.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 6:14:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:


That was certainly not the tone or the conclusion when this subject was last brought up in this forum.
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Romans also talks about being dead to sin. Roman 6-8.
Chapter 6 tells about dying to sin, 7 tells about struggles with sin, and 8 tells about Life through the spirit.
Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Does this mean we, as born again Christians, never sin again after we are saved? Absolutely not. Sometimes it's sin that's never been recognized and sometimes its sin that sneaked up on us, or we gave into temptation, or a hundred other scenarios. Sin seperates us from God and himders our relationship with Him. But does that put us back to the same state we were in before we gave our life to God? Absolutely not, that's where grace comes in.


That was certainly not the tone or the conclusion when this subject was last brought up in this forum.

I basically said the same thing there too, but I said it a little differently. I didn't open the whole "living in the Spirit" part of it. I thought it was too in depth for that thread and off the topic of baptism.
If you're talking about the "sinless" part you spoke of, well, that's just an inaccurate and misleading way to say it. Hebrews 10:9 Then he said,"Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Skip to 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "this is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says The Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. " 17 then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. " 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Verse 22 goes on to say: let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
We should not have a guilty conscience because we were forgiven once for all and He remembers our sin no more.
So if,Hebrews 10:10 "we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all", can we still be looked at as sinners in God's eyes?
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 7:15:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2013 8:00:38 PM EST by sonyvman79]
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
What of the claim that 'I am saved therefore I am free from sin.?' I see this as a parallel to 'once saved always saved.'
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Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

When the Bible was written there were no chapters and verses, they was added later on. The good thing is that it helps us find scripture, the bad is a lot of people want to take one ,or two verses and make a doctrine out of it.... When you have to look at the whole book, you can't have this....without that....Salvation comes by the Holy Ghost, Salvation produces holiness.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 7:48:36 AM EST
To me its just parsing a phrase. Another poster in the previous thread said that he was free from sin. He said he was sinless. I had thought that several agreed with this assessment. In this thread, it seems that several agree that salvation is a process or a continuum at the very least. It is clear that we as humans, are capable of falling back into sin. I don't think you can have it both ways.

If one is capable of sin, then one is not free from sin. And if one is capable of sin, you cannot have assurance of salvation. Its the old 'walking the walk' concept.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”127

1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.


In years past, I was attending a Baptist Sunday school before going to Mass. At that time the logistics of my parish were such that our adult study was not up and running. And frankly, I had a craving for in depth Scripture study. I quit going to this Sunday school for three reasons. The first was the divorce of one of the 'Bible believing' couples in the class. Nothing was said, nothing was mentioned. Move on, nothing to see here. Completely unscriptural, but nevertheless glossed over. Secondly, the instructor, versed in the simple truth of the Gospel, completely white washed a lesson on the verses concerning the road to Emmaus. But lastly, and more in line with this thread. the instructor also made the claim that because he was saved that he was incapable of sin. My wife, raised Southern baptist, said she had never heard this before. No one in the class refuted him. Since that time, many years ago, I have heard some forme fruste of this position many times, on this board and elsewhere.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 9:04:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2013 9:11:50 AM EST by ledslngr]
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To me its just parsing a phrase. Another poster in the previous thread said that he was free from sin. He said he was sinless. I had thought that several agreed with this assessment. In this thread, it seems that several agree that salvation is a process or a continuum at the very least. It is clear that we as humans, are capable of falling back into sin. I don't think you can have it both ways.

If one is capable of sin, then one is not free from sin. And if one is capable of sin, you cannot have assurance of salvation. Its the old 'walking the walk' concept.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”127

1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.


In years past, I was attending a Baptist Sunday school before going to Mass. At that time the logistics of my parish were such that our adult study was not up and running. And frankly, I had a craving for in depth Scripture study. I quit going to this Sunday school for three reasons. The first was the divorce of one of the 'Bible believing' couples in the class. Nothing was said, nothing was mentioned. Move on, nothing to see here. Completely unscriptural, but nevertheless glossed over. Secondly, the instructor, versed in the simple truth of the Gospel, completely white washed a lesson on the verses concerning the road to Emmaus. But lastly, and more in line with this thread. the instructor also made the claim that because he was saved that he was incapable of sin. My wife, raised Southern baptist, said she had never heard this before. No one in the class refuted him. Since that time, many years ago, I have heard some forme fruste of this position many times, on this board and elsewhere.
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Well, the scripture has been given to back up what I said. I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying, or what the scripture is saying. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying in the scripture I gave?
ETA: there is only one unforgivable sin and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 1864 that you quoted. All of the other sins are grouped together as they are in 1852 that you quoted.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 11:38:11 AM EST
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 1:39:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2013 2:09:07 PM EST by ledslngr]
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.
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What is your definition of "sinless"? Do you mean sinless as in it is impossible to commit sin? If so, we are talking about two different things. Lets clarify what you're definition of sinless is.
ETA: never mind, if you don't believe what the scriptures I quoted says, then there's nothing more I can add.
I understand WHY you don't believe it, because a series of your beliefs contradicts it. I don't have a problem with that, you're entitled to believe what you want.
But I am curious about what you think those scriptures I quoted mean.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 5:34:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:

What is your definition of "sinless"? Do you mean sinless as in it is impossible to commit sin? If so, we are talking about two different things. Lets clarify what you're definition of sinless is.
ETA: never mind, if you don't believe what the scriptures I quoted says, then there's nothing more I can add.
I understand WHY you don't believe it, because a series of your beliefs contradicts it. I don't have a problem with that, you're entitled to believe what you want.
But I am curious about what you think those scriptures I quoted mean.
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.

What is your definition of "sinless"? Do you mean sinless as in it is impossible to commit sin? If so, we are talking about two different things. Lets clarify what you're definition of sinless is.
ETA: never mind, if you don't believe what the scriptures I quoted says, then there's nothing more I can add.
I understand WHY you don't believe it, because a series of your beliefs contradicts it. I don't have a problem with that, you're entitled to believe what you want.
But I am curious about what you think those scriptures I quoted mean.

You understand little. Your personal interpretation of scripture is the only meaning you will ever grasp. And you would not accept any other as valid. So much so that you need to parse the word 'sinless.'

In your world, either this scripture is correct, or that one is correct. In my world all scripture has to agree. It cannot contradict itself. That is the essence of Catholicism. There is nothing in the Catholic faith that contradicts scripture. There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Catholic faith.

Link Posted: 9/7/2013 5:54:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.
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Matthew (KJV) 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

2 Corinthians 3

Link Posted: 9/7/2013 6:01:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:

You understand little. Your personal interpretation of scripture is the only meaning you will ever grasp. And you would not accept any other as valid. So much so that you need to parse the word 'sinless.'

In your world, either this scripture is correct, or that one is correct. In my world all scripture has to agree. It cannot contradict itself. That is the essence of Catholicism. There is nothing in the Catholic faith that contradicts scripture. There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Catholic faith.

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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.

What is your definition of "sinless"? Do you mean sinless as in it is impossible to commit sin? If so, we are talking about two different things. Lets clarify what you're definition of sinless is.
ETA: never mind, if you don't believe what the scriptures I quoted says, then there's nothing more I can add.
I understand WHY you don't believe it, because a series of your beliefs contradicts it. I don't have a problem with that, you're entitled to believe what you want.
But I am curious about what you think those scriptures I quoted mean.

You understand little. Your personal interpretation of scripture is the only meaning you will ever grasp. And you would not accept any other as valid. So much so that you need to parse the word 'sinless.'

In your world, either this scripture is correct, or that one is correct. In my world all scripture has to agree. It cannot contradict itself. That is the essence of Catholicism. There is nothing in the Catholic faith that contradicts scripture. There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Catholic faith.


There's the insults! I knew you could do it! All I had to do was ask you what you thought a passage of scripture meant and you panicked. You panicked because you don't know or you're afraid to say because you would have to admit I was right! And you fell back on the "oh yeah? Well, your a stupid non-catholic" childish insults. I thought we were actually going to have a civilized conversation, but I can see that's impossible with you.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 3:20:47 AM EST
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Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Predestined to salvation in Christ. No decision. No free will.
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Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Predestined to salvation in Christ. No decision. No free will.


CS Lewis had some great quotes on this:

God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.



On the other hand, if God’s moral judgment differs from ours so that our “black” may be His “white”, we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say “God is good,” while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say “God is we know not what”. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) “good” we shall obey, if at all, only through fear – and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend. The doctrine of Total Depravity – when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing – may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.
The Problem of Pain

Link Posted: 9/8/2013 5:12:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:

There's the insults! I knew you could do it! All I had to do was ask you what you thought a passage of scripture meant and you panicked. You panicked because you don't know or you're afraid to say because you would have to admit I was right! And you fell back on the "oh yeah? Well, your a stupid non-catholic" childish insults. I thought we were actually going to have a civilized conversation, but I can see that's impossible with you.
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.

What is your definition of "sinless"? Do you mean sinless as in it is impossible to commit sin? If so, we are talking about two different things. Lets clarify what you're definition of sinless is.
ETA: never mind, if you don't believe what the scriptures I quoted says, then there's nothing more I can add.
I understand WHY you don't believe it, because a series of your beliefs contradicts it. I don't have a problem with that, you're entitled to believe what you want.
But I am curious about what you think those scriptures I quoted mean.

You understand little. Your personal interpretation of scripture is the only meaning you will ever grasp. And you would not accept any other as valid. So much so that you need to parse the word 'sinless.'

In your world, either this scripture is correct, or that one is correct. In my world all scripture has to agree. It cannot contradict itself. That is the essence of Catholicism. There is nothing in the Catholic faith that contradicts scripture. There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Catholic faith.


There's the insults! I knew you could do it! All I had to do was ask you what you thought a passage of scripture meant and you panicked. You panicked because you don't know or you're afraid to say because you would have to admit I was right! And you fell back on the "oh yeah? Well, your a stupid non-catholic" childish insults. I thought we were actually going to have a civilized conversation, but I can see that's impossible with you.


I don't panic. That wouldn't work very well in my profession.

In case you didn't notice, your clairvoyant pronunciation that I couldn't fathom one of your prooftexts because it contradicted my belief? That sir, was an insult. I responded to that statement. So if you throw a punch at me, expect to be bruised someplace along the way.

I was trying to avoid a prooftexting war because it generally goes nowhere. But if you want to go down that road, we can. So far you have quoted Hebrews, Galatians and two chapters of Romans. (sigh) So which one do you want me to expound on? And in the future, maybe it you would separate your commentary from the actual quotations, or maybe hit the paragraph button every now and again, your posts would be a little easier to read and respond to.

Otherwise, this thread has been derailed sufficiently already, and I'll just go back to posting relevant scripture on salvation as a process.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 5:26:13 AM EST
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.

The imputation here is that, some will have started out with a warm, charitable heart, but will be overcome by iniquity. Some translations read 'the love of many will wax cold.'


Mark 4:13 And he saith to them: Are you ignorant of this parable? and how shall you know all parables? 14 He that soweth, soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown, and as soon as they have heard, immediately Satan cometh and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these likewise are they that are sown on the stony ground: who when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but are only for a time: and then when tribulation and persecution ariseth for the word they are presently scandalized. 18 And others there are who are sown among thorns: these are they that hear the word, 19 And the cares of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts after other things entering in choke the word, and it is made fruitless.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And they by the way side are they that hear; then the devil cometh, and taketh the word out of their heart, lest believing they should be saved. 13 Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns, are they who have heard, and going their way, are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and yield no fruit. 15 But that on the good ground, are they who in a good and perfect heart, hearing the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit in patience.

Again the parable of the sower. It appears in all of three of the synoptic Gospels, so it must be a fairly well understood and important concept. The wording is a little different in each, but the message is the same -- salvation is not assured. The wording in Luke is very pointed.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 6:41:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2013 6:45:19 AM EST by ledslngr]
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:


I don't panic. That wouldn't work very well in my profession.

In case you didn't notice, your clairvoyant pronunciation that I couldn't fathom one of your prooftexts because it contradicted my belief? That sir, was an insult. I responded to that statement. So if you throw a punch at me, expect to be bruised someplace along the way.

I was trying to avoid a prooftexting war because it generally goes nowhere. But if you want to go down that road, we can. So far you have quoted Hebrews, Galatians and two chapters of Romans. (sigh) So which one do you want me to expound on? And in the future, maybe it you would separate your commentary from the actual quotations, or maybe hit the paragraph button every now and again, your posts would be a little easier to read and respond to.

Otherwise, this thread has been derailed sufficiently already, and I'll just go back to posting relevant scripture on salvation as a process.
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I understand completely. I just disagree. I disagree with the premise that we are sinless if 'saved.' I disagree that guilt or responsibility is waived because we are 'saved.'

Quoting scripture often does not clarify a discussion. I think we get caught up in 'Romans says this,' followed by 'Oh yeah, well James says that.' The word of God does not contradict itself. If a passage of scripture is in conflict with another, then we need to rethink the meaning of one or both. If the New Testament tramples on the Old Testament, we need to rethink how they relate. God doesn't change His mind.

What is your definition of "sinless"? Do you mean sinless as in it is impossible to commit sin? If so, we are talking about two different things. Lets clarify what you're definition of sinless is.
ETA: never mind, if you don't believe what the scriptures I quoted says, then there's nothing more I can add.
I understand WHY you don't believe it, because a series of your beliefs contradicts it. I don't have a problem with that, you're entitled to believe what you want.
But I am curious about what you think those scriptures I quoted mean.

You understand little. Your personal interpretation of scripture is the only meaning you will ever grasp. And you would not accept any other as valid. So much so that you need to parse the word 'sinless.'

In your world, either this scripture is correct, or that one is correct. In my world all scripture has to agree. It cannot contradict itself. That is the essence of Catholicism. There is nothing in the Catholic faith that contradicts scripture. There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Catholic faith.


There's the insults! I knew you could do it! All I had to do was ask you what you thought a passage of scripture meant and you panicked. You panicked because you don't know or you're afraid to say because you would have to admit I was right! And you fell back on the "oh yeah? Well, your a stupid non-catholic" childish insults. I thought we were actually going to have a civilized conversation, but I can see that's impossible with you.


I don't panic. That wouldn't work very well in my profession.

In case you didn't notice, your clairvoyant pronunciation that I couldn't fathom one of your prooftexts because it contradicted my belief? That sir, was an insult. I responded to that statement. So if you throw a punch at me, expect to be bruised someplace along the way.

I was trying to avoid a prooftexting war because it generally goes nowhere. But if you want to go down that road, we can. So far you have quoted Hebrews, Galatians and two chapters of Romans. (sigh) So which one do you want me to expound on? And in the future, maybe it you would separate your commentary from the actual quotations, or maybe hit the paragraph button every now and again, your posts would be a little easier to read and respond to.

Otherwise, this thread has been derailed sufficiently already, and I'll just go back to posting relevant scripture on salvation as a process.

That wasn't meant as an insult. I was stating that I understand you believe differently and it's pointless to go on about the discussion of Christians being "sinless". You obviously disagree with what I said the scriptures mean, am I wrong? Your beliefs obviously lead you to a different meaning of those scriptures, or those scriptures lead you to a different belief, which ever it may be. Am I wrong?

Then I said I was curious as to what you thought those scriptures mean since you don't agree with what I said they mean.

All I was trying to do was have a respectful conversation for once, since we always end up in these purse flinging fights. But don't worry about that anymore, your prejudice/hatred/ intollerance toward any Protestant/anything not Catholic view point, or person, tells me that can never happen.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 11:35:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:

That wasn't meant as an insult.
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:

That wasn't meant as an insult.


MMkay. My belief contradicts the word of God. Not an insult.....


I was stating that I understand you believe differently and it's pointless to go on about the discussion of Christians being "sinless". You obviously disagree with what I said the scriptures mean, am I wrong? Your beliefs obviously lead you to a different meaning of those scriptures, or those scriptures lead you to a different belief, which ever it may be. Am I wrong?

Then I said I was curious as to what you thought those scriptures mean since you don't agree with what I said they mean.

All I was trying to do was have a respectful conversation for once, since we always end up in these purse flinging fights. But don't worry about that anymore, your prejudice/hatred/ intollerance toward any Protestant/anything not Catholic view point, or person, tells me that can never happen.


Another non-insult I presume....
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 11:38:56 AM EST
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Paul doesn't sound certain that he can maintain a pure state.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 11:48:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:


MMkay. My belief contradicts the word of God. Not an insult.....



Another non-insult I presume....
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:

That wasn't meant as an insult.


MMkay. My belief contradicts the word of God. Not an insult.....


I was stating that I understand you believe differently and it's pointless to go on about the discussion of Christians being "sinless". You obviously disagree with what I said the scriptures mean, am I wrong? Your beliefs obviously lead you to a different meaning of those scriptures, or those scriptures lead you to a different belief, which ever it may be. Am I wrong?

Then I said I was curious as to what you thought those scriptures mean since you don't agree with what I said they mean.

All I was trying to do was have a respectful conversation for once, since we always end up in these purse flinging fights. But don't worry about that anymore, your prejudice/hatred/ intollerance toward any Protestant/anything not Catholic view point, or person, tells me that can never happen.


Another non-insult I presume....

To your first statement: What are you talking about?!!! You're the one that said you didn't agree with me about what the scriptures say!

To answer your second statement: No, not an insult, an observation.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 7:23:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 12:42:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By medicmandan:


Did we not get enough of this in the locked thread?
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You're right, this is rediculous.
I'm out
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:18:20 AM EST
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:53:15 PM EST
Galatians 4:8 But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them, who, by nature, are not gods. 9 But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements, which you desire to serve again?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast, and be not held again under the yoke of bondage.2 Behold, I Paul tell you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man circumcising himself, that he is a debtor to the whole law. 4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.

The context of Galatians is Paul entreating the followers not to take up, or perhaps go back to the stringency of the Judaic law. But in a broader sense, and applicable to the subject of this thread, we see believers being warned that they could fall from grace.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:19:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2013 4:34:10 PM EST by angelfire]
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:

Well, the scripture has been given to back up what I said. I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying, or what the scripture is saying. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying in the scripture I gave?
ETA: there is only one unforgivable sin and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 1864 that you quoted. All of the other sins are grouped together as they are in 1852 that you quoted.
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To me its just parsing a phrase. Another poster in the previous thread said that he was free from sin. He said he was sinless. I had thought that several agreed with this assessment. In this thread, it seems that several agree that salvation is a process or a continuum at the very least. It is clear that we as humans, are capable of falling back into sin. I don't think you can have it both ways.

If one is capable of sin, then one is not free from sin. And if one is capable of sin, you cannot have assurance of salvation. Its the old 'walking the walk' concept.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”127

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.


In years past, I was attending a Baptist Sunday school before going to Mass. At that time the logistics of my parish were such that our adult study was not up and running. And frankly, I had a craving for in depth Scripture study. I quit going to this Sunday school for three reasons. The first was the divorce of one of the 'Bible believing' couples in the class. Nothing was said, nothing was mentioned. Move on, nothing to see here. Completely unscriptural, but nevertheless glossed over. Secondly, the instructor, versed in the simple truth of the Gospel, completely white washed a lesson on the verses concerning the road to Emmaus. But lastly, and more in line with this thread. the instructor also made the claim that because he was saved that he was incapable of sin. My wife, raised Southern baptist, said she had never heard this before. No one in the class refuted him. Since that time, many years ago, I have heard some forme fruste of this position many times, on this board and elsewhere.

Well, the scripture has been given to back up what I said. I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying, or what the scripture is saying. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying in the scripture I gave?
ETA: there is only one unforgivable sin and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 1864 that you quoted. All of the other sins are grouped together as they are in 1852 that you quoted.
I hear this a lot. "Because you chose Christ as your Lord and Savior all your sins are forgiven". How does that work? The second you are baptized your sins past present and future are of no consequence? Jesus's sacrifice wasn't a free ride or pass to continue to sin. We would never had needed Jesus if there wasn't so much more to it than that. John The Baptist started baptizing in water... Yet even he recognized that it wouldn't be enough. Sin is exactly what drove every bit of the suffering and horrifying death The Christ endured. If you truly believed that salvation was a one step process... why do you bother with scripture at all?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:45:20 PM EST
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Originally Posted By angelfire:
I hear this a lot. "Because you chose Christ as your Lord and Savior all your sins are forgiven". How does that work? The second you are baptized your sins past present and future are of no consequence? Jesus's sacrifice wasn't a free ride or pass to continue to sin. We would never had needed Jesus if there wasn't so much more to it than that. John The Baptist started baptizing in water... Yet even he recognized that it wouldn't be enough. Sin is exactly what drove every bit of the suffering and horrifying death The Christ endured. If you truly believed that salvation was a one step process... why do you bother with scripture at all?
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Originally Posted By angelfire:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To me its just parsing a phrase. Another poster in the previous thread said that he was free from sin. He said he was sinless. I had thought that several agreed with this assessment. In this thread, it seems that several agree that salvation is a process or a continuum at the very least. It is clear that we as humans, are capable of falling back into sin. I don't think you can have it both ways.

If one is capable of sin, then one is not free from sin. And if one is capable of sin, you cannot have assurance of salvation. Its the old 'walking the walk' concept.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”127

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.


In years past, I was attending a Baptist Sunday school before going to Mass. At that time the logistics of my parish were such that our adult study was not up and running. And frankly, I had a craving for in depth Scripture study. I quit going to this Sunday school for three reasons. The first was the divorce of one of the 'Bible believing' couples in the class. Nothing was said, nothing was mentioned. Move on, nothing to see here. Completely unscriptural, but nevertheless glossed over. Secondly, the instructor, versed in the simple truth of the Gospel, completely white washed a lesson on the verses concerning the road to Emmaus. But lastly, and more in line with this thread. the instructor also made the claim that because he was saved that he was incapable of sin. My wife, raised Southern baptist, said she had never heard this before. No one in the class refuted him. Since that time, many years ago, I have heard some forme fruste of this position many times, on this board and elsewhere.

Well, the scripture has been given to back up what I said. I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying, or what the scripture is saying. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying in the scripture I gave?
ETA: there is only one unforgivable sin and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 1864 that you quoted. All of the other sins are grouped together as they are in 1852 that you quoted.
I hear this a lot. "Because you chose Christ as your Lord and Savior all your sins are forgiven". How does that work? The second you are baptized your sins past present and future are of no consequence? Jesus's sacrifice wasn't a free ride or pass to continue to sin. We would never had needed Jesus if there wasn't so much more to it than that. John The Baptist started baptizing in water... Yet even he recognized that it wouldn't be enough. Sin is exactly what drove every bit of the suffering and horrifying death The Christ endured. If you truly believed that salvation was a one step process... why do you bother with scripture at all?

Really? You got that out of all my posts in this thread?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 5:30:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2013 5:31:52 PM EST by angelfire]
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:

Really? You got that out of all my posts in this thread?
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Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By angelfire:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To me its just parsing a phrase. Another poster in the previous thread said that he was free from sin. He said he was sinless. I had thought that several agreed with this assessment. In this thread, it seems that several agree that salvation is a process or a continuum at the very least. It is clear that we as humans, are capable of falling back into sin. I don't think you can have it both ways.

If one is capable of sin, then one is not free from sin. And if one is capable of sin, you cannot have assurance of salvation. Its the old 'walking the walk' concept.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”127

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.


In years past, I was attending a Baptist Sunday school before going to Mass. At that time the logistics of my parish were such that our adult study was not up and running. And frankly, I had a craving for in depth Scripture study. I quit going to this Sunday school for three reasons. The first was the divorce of one of the 'Bible believing' couples in the class. Nothing was said, nothing was mentioned. Move on, nothing to see here. Completely unscriptural, but nevertheless glossed over. Secondly, the instructor, versed in the simple truth of the Gospel, completely white washed a lesson on the verses concerning the road to Emmaus. But lastly, and more in line with this thread. the instructor also made the claim that because he was saved that he was incapable of sin. My wife, raised Southern baptist, said she had never heard this before. No one in the class refuted him. Since that time, many years ago, I have heard some forme fruste of this position many times, on this board and elsewhere.

Well, the scripture has been given to back up what I said. I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying, or what the scripture is saying. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying in the scripture I gave?
ETA: there is only one unforgivable sin and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 1864 that you quoted. All of the other sins are grouped together as they are in 1852 that you quoted.
I hear this a lot. "Because you chose Christ as your Lord and Savior all your sins are forgiven". How does that work? The second you are baptized your sins past present and future are of no consequence? Jesus's sacrifice wasn't a free ride or pass to continue to sin. We would never had needed Jesus if there wasn't so much more to it than that. John The Baptist started baptizing in water... Yet even he recognized that it wouldn't be enough. Sin is exactly what drove every bit of the suffering and horrifying death The Christ endured. If you truly believed that salvation was a one step process... why do you bother with scripture at all?

Really? You got that out of all my posts in this thread?
I am coming from a place of complete benevolence in asking. Perhaps an over simplification on my part because I did see your previous posts. I am not being disrespectful in anyway sir. Quite the contrary. I am trying to understand. And very honestly I am asking, if you truly believe what you said in the earlier post.... why were we not restored to Eden; to perfection? What further need is there of anything else but baptism and declaring your belief ? You go on your way ( with sin) because God no longer "has a conscience of your sin" because of His Son's death and Resurrection? How does that work? It is one dimensional. This is not to insult you but sincerely I hit a wall trying to get my head around this. Sin does separate us from God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't it be that once you believe .. sincerely and truly with your whole heart soul mind and being.. that you would restored to Eden? Because what is suggested implies exactly this.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 1:33:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 3:12:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2013 3:32:12 AM EST by ledslngr]
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Originally Posted By angelfire:
I am coming from a place of complete benevolence in asking. Perhaps an over simplification on my part because I did see your previous posts. I am not being disrespectful in anyway sir. Quite the contrary. I am trying to understand. And very honestly I am asking, if you truly believe what you said in the earlier post.... why were we not restored to Eden; to perfection? What further need is there of anything else but baptism and declaring your belief ? You go on your way ( with sin) because God no longer "has a conscience of your sin" because of His Son's death and Resurrection? How does that work? It is one dimensional. This is not to insult you but sincerely I hit a wall trying to get my head around this. Sin does separate us from God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't it be that once you believe .. sincerely and truly with your whole heart soul mind and being.. that you would restored to Eden? Because what is suggested implies exactly this.
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Originally Posted By angelfire:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By angelfire:
Originally Posted By ledslngr:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To me its just parsing a phrase. Another poster in the previous thread said that he was free from sin. He said he was sinless. I had thought that several agreed with this assessment. In this thread, it seems that several agree that salvation is a process or a continuum at the very least. It is clear that we as humans, are capable of falling back into sin. I don't think you can have it both ways.

If one is capable of sin, then one is not free from sin. And if one is capable of sin, you cannot have assurance of salvation. Its the old 'walking the walk' concept.

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”127

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.


In years past, I was attending a Baptist Sunday school before going to Mass. At that time the logistics of my parish were such that our adult study was not up and running. And frankly, I had a craving for in depth Scripture study. I quit going to this Sunday school for three reasons. The first was the divorce of one of the 'Bible believing' couples in the class. Nothing was said, nothing was mentioned. Move on, nothing to see here. Completely unscriptural, but nevertheless glossed over. Secondly, the instructor, versed in the simple truth of the Gospel, completely white washed a lesson on the verses concerning the road to Emmaus. But lastly, and more in line with this thread. the instructor also made the claim that because he was saved that he was incapable of sin. My wife, raised Southern baptist, said she had never heard this before. No one in the class refuted him. Since that time, many years ago, I have heard some forme fruste of this position many times, on this board and elsewhere.

Well, the scripture has been given to back up what I said. I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying, or what the scripture is saying. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying in the scripture I gave?
ETA: there is only one unforgivable sin and that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 1864 that you quoted. All of the other sins are grouped together as they are in 1852 that you quoted.
I hear this a lot. "Because you chose Christ as your Lord and Savior all your sins are forgiven". How does that work? The second you are baptized your sins past present and future are of no consequence? Jesus's sacrifice wasn't a free ride or pass to continue to sin. We would never had needed Jesus if there wasn't so much more to it than that. John The Baptist started baptizing in water... Yet even he recognized that it wouldn't be enough. Sin is exactly what drove every bit of the suffering and horrifying death The Christ endured. If you truly believed that salvation was a one step process... why do you bother with scripture at all?

Really? You got that out of all my posts in this thread?
I am coming from a place of complete benevolence in asking. Perhaps an over simplification on my part because I did see your previous posts. I am not being disrespectful in anyway sir. Quite the contrary. I am trying to understand. And very honestly I am asking, if you truly believe what you said in the earlier post.... why were we not restored to Eden; to perfection? What further need is there of anything else but baptism and declaring your belief ? You go on your way ( with sin) because God no longer "has a conscience of your sin" because of His Son's death and Resurrection? How does that work? It is one dimensional. This is not to insult you but sincerely I hit a wall trying to get my head around this. Sin does separate us from God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't it be that once you believe .. sincerely and truly with your whole heart soul mind and being.. that you would restored to Eden? Because what is suggested implies exactly this.

Thank you for being respectful and I'm more than happy to explain to the best of my ability.

1. Put aside the stereotype that protestants think we have a license to sin, its not true.
2. If one has truly accepted/put their faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit will renew your mind. Most of the time this starts before one gives their life to Christ, which is why they make the decision to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
3. When your mind is renewed you stop finding pleasure in the world of sin because you now see it for what it is. Instead, you crave the relationship with God and you don't want to be seperated from Him again. The chains of sin have been broken and we are free from sin. Not in the meaning that we can't sin, but in the meaning that we are no longer slaves to sin, we no longer desire sin. Not by our power but by Jesus defeating sin on the cross. This is saying that Jesus payed the ultimate sacrifice for our sin and to Him be the glory. What Jesus did is not to be taken lightly.
4. Yes, sin seperates us from God. But, God sees our heart. It's one thing to "slip up" and give in to sin accidentally, its another to willingly turn away from God and say "I don't need you, I can do this on my own". We all know what can happen if we do not stay close to God and get wrapped up in sin, the devil relishes this.
5. We needed Jesus's sacrifice to forgive us of our sin before we were saved so why would we be able to make it without him after we are saved? We are not restored to perfection while here on earth, that is promised to us when we are gathered with Him after our physical death. So we still need His grace to forgive us when we sin even after we are saved.
There is more to this, but I could almost write a small book on it.

Here's where people disagree:
1. When we are saved we are totally washed clean from sin. We are then seen by God as holy because he sees the blood of Jesus.
2. We are free from sin, or have been freed from the sinful nature. This doesn't mean a license to sin, after all, who would WANT to go on with their sinful life after they have experienced God's love and forgiveness?
3. There might be other areas but these are the most popular it seems.

Now, are people misled and think they have a license to sin because they have been forgiven? I think the answer is "yes".
On the other hand, are there people who think they can do what they want because they can go to confession and be forgiven? I think the answer is "yes".
From reading your post I think we agree that both of these view points are wrong.

If one WANTS to go on living their lives like they did before they gave their lives to Christ, then maybe they didn't really give their lives to Christ. My opinion is they didn't if we look at the fruits of the Spirit.

I probably made that clear as mud, but please feel free to ask for clarification on specifics. I put a lot of info into a short post so I'll elaborate where I need to. If you want scripture to back up my points I'm more than happy to provide that as well.

ETA: God wants us to love and worship Him for who He is, not because we afraid to go to hell (not insinuating that you hold that belief). He is to be feared, no doubt, and we should be afraid of going to hell. That would mean eternity without Him and His love. But He wants true love which is why He gave us free will. If you worshiped Him because you were afraid of what He would do to you if you didn't, would that be true love? I would say it would be respect maybe, but not true love.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 6:21:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2013 6:25:15 AM EST by Nyle_AR15]
I apologize ahead of time for not reading all the posts of this thread. I was just wanting to address the OP with the title of the thread. It seems with the few posts I did read that the actual topic isn't really talked about, to me at least. I would like to know with scripture that proves that salvation is a process. I would agree with the statement that sanctification is a process, but based on what I've read I'd have to disagree that salvation is a process. Peter addressed the crowd at Pentecost in Acts ch2. In verse 37 the crowd realized what they had done and asked, "what shall we do?" Peter answered them in verse 38 saying, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul says in Ephesians ch 1 that the Holy Spirit is our seal/guarantee of salvation.
Edit: I am NOT saying I believe once saved always saved, because I don't believe that. I believe you must live out your faith
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 10:18:40 AM EST

proc·ess

1. a systematic series of actions directed to some end: to devise a process for homogenizing milk.
2. a continuous action, operation, or series of changes taking place in a definite manner: the process of decay.

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 11:33:17 AM EST
Webster's definition means nothing to me. He didn't write the words of life. Please show me using scripture that salvation is a process over time to be able to obtain it.
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