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Posted: 1/24/2002 8:49:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 9:09:29 AM EST
That sounds like Newport to me.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 9:36:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 9:51:33 AM EST
And then there are those who see no problem with the above situation. Hey, mistakes happen. Can't be too sure about those six month pregnant women. I saw "Innocent Man" with Tom Selleck. Just wait until they start using the wrong address technique against gunowners. But isn't that already happening?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 9:59:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:02:10 AM EST
THANKS A LOT, BUNGHOLE!!! Now I have wet myself!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:07:09 AM EST
I'd be proud to have Barney in my stack.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:22:28 AM EST
They sound like some high-speed low-drag TACTICAL operators! Perhaps it was all a part of SWAT's mysterious and all knowing plan? You're only John Q. Public. You're not as important or knowledgable as those SWAT offciers. For instance their EAP probably dictated the ROE that stated that all pregnant women must be incapacitated by the DAT at the FAP ASAP. After all those guys have big moustaches and 1*!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:38:10 AM EST
Haywood County ? It was a beautiful area when my family had a cabin there (Just outside Maggie Valley.) When the cabin sold, I had never heard anything about a reputation. Is this something new or did I just miss it being about a mile up in the mountains ? I know even when I was there that the feds would patrol the area from the air presumably for Drugs or whatever. Then again, they may have been looking for Eric Rudolph.
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Green_Furniture: That sounds like Newport to me.
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No, Unicoi county actually, but living in Haywood county I am very aware of teh reputation our neighbors on our western border have[rolleyes]
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Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:44:04 AM EST
Unicoi, Cocke, what's the difference?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:48:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:51:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 2:05:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Green_Furniture: That sounds like Newport to me.
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LOL They are chasing down the KKK! Sounds like the larger % of LEOs in this area. Not bashing, stating a fact. I have a few freinds that are leos here. R35
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 2:21:01 PM EST
To answer your last sentence......well, uhhmm, you would be dead.....da-da-damn. Dave S And I would miss you, here.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:30:50 PM EST
Isn't this where someone here sez: [i]"Hey, I'm sure she deserved it. The Man wouldn't have been there otherwise." "We don't know the whole story. The media always paints the police as the bad guys in this type of thing." "As long as she complies, what's the problem? If she's innocent it will all get sorted out, no harm done"[/i]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:35:41 PM EST
I'm in Knoxville, where the SWAT team busted in to my neighbor's house and shot her drunk boyfriend to death about five years ago. Damn 9mm from an MP5 skipped off my driveway and damn near hit me!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:41:18 PM EST
Was this a nice apt complex where very little crime goes on or is it a great place to pick up any type of pleasure know to man???? Female? Girls preg...someones putting out!!! drugs? weapons? They do screw up........main thing I see is no one was hurt!!!! Someone should get a HUGE ASS chewing over this....maybe a demotion. Axeldawg
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 5:45:54 PM EST
Well S**t like this will continue to happen until the cops involved actually pay a price for their actions. They break into the wrong person’s house in the middle of the night when the person is sleeping, the person acting in self defense grabs a weapon, the cops see him with the weapon, and they shoot and usually kill him. So what happens to the cops involved basically nothing, they don’t go to prison, they don’t pay any money, and they get to keep their jobs. Is this justice ?? Not as I see it. The cops need to pay for wrongfully killing people, if the court system is incapable of giving us justice when a cop is the guilty party, then it is up to the people themselves to meter out justice. I will tell everyone one fact if my wife or child had been killed by a cop during a mistaken raid, I would expect who ever was responsible for my loved one’s death to go to prison. I would not be satisfied with winning a court judgment in a civil court and ending up with a few million dollars, that would not bring back my loved one. Only blood will be payment for blood and I would except nothing less then a stiff prison sentence for the guilty party. If can not get justice by legal means via the government and the court system then I will have to get justice my way. As has been said here before I would hunt down and terminate every member of the SWAT team that murdered my loved one and I would show no mercy. And if I was really ticked off I might even do as was done to the government agent in the last part of Unintended Consequences. The part where the agent was found in his back yard with his wife and children and they were all dead and the house was on fire. Only if this starts happening will the Storm Troopers learn not to kill innocent people. There has to be a price to be paid for the killing of an innocent person, whether the price paid is a long prison sentence or a death sentence carried out by one of the victims loved ones. The cops don’t even lose their jobs or at the very least have to pay the victim out of their pay checks, and this is called justice by the system. This will happen one day not by me since I do not have a family to avenge, but by someone and true justice will be served.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 6:39:48 PM EST
This brings up an interesting question. Say I am awakened in the middle of the night by some one busting the door down. I grab my AR, put a full mag in it, chamber a round, and confront the intruder. If it's the police, chances are they'll start shooting. And if they don't, they start yelling "Put your weapon down" while I'm yelling "Identify yourself" and/or "Do you have a warrant?" What do you do? Since I am a law abiding citizen, it would be reasonable to presume it is not the police but a criminal intruder. This has nasty written all over it. What would you do?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:12:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:02:56 PM EST
Sometimes mistakes are made and there has been the deaths of innocent persons. In the event described above thankfully that did not happen. I see everyone so angry about the serious screw up, will ya'll tell me just how many inoccent people are your LEO's shooting that it appears to be a common occurance or maybe just how often are they "Raiding" the wrong house? While it is f----d up that they happen the fact remains that humans are not perfect and things will happen. The Law requires the person or in this case "LEO" had intent to harm. There are supposed to be strict guidelines for such warrants to be issued and there should be triple-or more checks of the location before the raid. I'am just saying sometimes the world goes tits up all someone can do is keep trying to get it right.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:14:11 PM EST
Well if they break into my house my dog will let me know before they smash down the door, and the first thing I will do when I hear the door broken down is either chamber a round into my AR or chamber a round into my 870, and the round I chamber into the 870 will be a high quality 12 gauge Flechett shell. So the entry team is going to have a interesting surprise when they break into my house and I will at least take a few of them with me. What will happen if you manage to take out the first two or three members of the entry team is the rest of them will back out and regroup not knowing what has happened to their plan. And if you have anytime at all to prepare and you fire at them with an AR-15 you will take at least a couple of them out.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:28:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By marvl: This brings up an interesting question. Say I am awakened in the middle of the night by some one busting the door down. I grab my AR, put a full mag in it, chamber a round, and confront the intruder. What do you do?
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Why are you out there confronting them? Don't you have your claymores wired for remote detonation?? Sheesh. Any cops come busting in through my doorway, they'll be tripping over all the "cover" I have scattered all over my entryway, living room, and hallway. One wrong step on the staircase and they'll be down in my tiger trap, impaled on splinters of plywood. By the time they get to where *I* am, if any of 'em do, I'll have the Gatling whirring and ready to feed. Yo mama never taught you how to be tactical, did she? [:D]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:30:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bubba541: Sometimes mistakes are made and there has been the deaths of innocent persons.
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Oops. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:42:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:44:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51: person’s don’t don’t one’s don’t
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Hey what are all these funny characters that I see from time to time?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 10:10:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: There was the man several years ago who died at the hands of the U.S. Park Service, of all things. He had a large ranch they wanted for a park, he refused to sell, they got an "anonymous tip" that he was selling drugs, they did a "no knock" raid, he picked up a pistol, they shot him dead.
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Donald Scott was his name. Your description glosses over one thing -- he didn't "pick up a pistol", my understanding (possibly mistaken) is that he came out of his bedroom with it when he heard his wife screaming. [url]http://www.fear.org/chron/scott.txt[/url]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 11:46:48 PM EST
There will be no consequences, because they were acting under "good faith." It's not really like the movies and tv: where they do stake-outs and stuff! Surveillance? What's that. An illegible digit and it's your front door coming down.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 4:25:08 AM EST
In a republic such as ours sometimes it's very difficult to determine the greater good for the community as a whole. What is more important - the rights of the individual or the safety of the community? That is the question that is debated daily by our representatives. Those on the left scream COMMUNITY and in the process marginalize and arguably victimize the individuals who comprise the greater collection known as the community. While on the right? Well... well... while on the right our representatives continually cave so that they can earn the coveted title of "moderate" in the press. No, seriously in a violent society those charged to serve and protect will make mistakes. They will also exceed their authroity at times and perhaps even harm those whom they've be commissioned to protect. Our task - as the people - is to use every legal means to hold them accountable.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:02:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:08:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:08:59 AM EST
Sometimes mistakes are made and there has been the deaths of innocent persons.
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Use of a SWAT team represents an extreme measure. They damn well ought to take the time to get it right.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:54:57 AM EST
If anyone ever busts down the door, and charges in with weapons at the ready, they can expect to meet a hail of gunfire. That alone ought to be a deterrant, but it is not. These things still happen. I just pray that I never have to be subjected to this.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:08:58 AM EST
If a thug broke in they would most likely be stopped before they made it past the foyer, unless they can clear the area and stairs (about 100 ft.) in under 2 seconds. I just hope if it happens it's a criminal and not a protector.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:16:01 AM EST
A friend who attended a police academy here in north Texas told me that an instructor taught his class that, "There is no such thing as a bad arrest, just bad paperwork." I wonder if this logic holds for shootings as well?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:16:06 AM EST
... a protector.
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?????????????? of what?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:57:17 AM EST
Here's where Sukebe and his minions come in and start screaming about LEO bashing... [rolleyes] Bottom line. - Execute a dynamic entry on my premises, and as a moral citizen (if not always law-abiding, as defined by the .gov) I will repel boarders...and you better believe I'm better at it than some dipshit methhead with an AK. I am not a criminal - and I will resist - violently if need be - attempts to treat me as one. QS
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 7:05:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 7:12:37 AM EST by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 7:10:11 AM EST
That's fantastic! That's exactly what I'm talking about. Under those conditions, I'd have to think the rate of 'wrong address' fuckups would be pretty close to zero. One thing I really find disturbing is the tendency of the LEOs who have spoken up so far to basically have the attitude that "Oh well, mistakes happen...but a guy shouldn't have to pay with his job!" Excuse me? You violate an innocent citizen's property, possibly kill someone, and it's an innocent mistake? Fuck you. You need to hang if you fuck up like that. Civilians don't get to say, "Oh well, shot the wrong guy, sorry 'bout that." QS
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 7:36:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 7:38:46 AM EST by zoom]
Garand_Shooter, nice post. A good friend of mine is a maintenance man for an apartment complex here in South Carolina. A few months ago, he got to see a very confused SWAT team. They had one address on the warrant and were briefed (with pictures and diagrams) for the apartment across the hallway. I thought it was nice that the officer's had the benefit of such information (it might save an officer's life one day), but it was for the wrong apartment! The officers entered the apartment that was on the warrant. After ruining the door and doorframe, much of the sheetrock, busting the toilets, and ripping-up the carpet looking for something, they didn't find anything. If I was a more negative person, I'd probably insert a comment here about the uniformed thug's destruction of an innocent owner's property.z
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 7:54:54 AM EST
Has there ever been a situation where the Swat team broke in the wrong house and the owner shot and killed/wounded the cop and lived, and what was the punishment for the owner? My quess would be he got in deep do do.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:29:50 AM EST
Have you ever seen the Video "When Cops Attack" It is really good. There are several cases of "wrong address" on there. In one case, the chopper is recording as SWAT riddles a home with bullets. The whole time, the pilot is saying they are in a gunfight with an unknown number of shooters. Well, they finally enter the house and nobody is there. There never was. Nobody fired on them becuase nobdy was there to fire on them. That means they riddled a home full of bullets just for the hell of it. Worse was, it turns out the tip leading up to it was incorrect and no crime had been commited. Could you imagine if there had been a fmaily with children in there. I don't care if they are cops, I will return fire and take some with me.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:30:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:36:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: .... If I had been there and someone had busted the door in, it would have been ugly for all of us. If someone ever busted the door in on my prgenant wife and cuffed her and forced her to lie on the floor, they would have hell to pay. .
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you ain't kiddin' G_Shooter. These SWAT teams better do their homework if they come knockin down my door in the middle of the night. I sleep with my Sig 229 10 inches from my head, and would be ready to fire in 5 seconds. When I wake up in the middle of the night, i wake up VERY conscious and alert. Someone will leave my premises in a body bag. And far as I am concerned, ANYONE breaking into my house not during daylight hours, I will shoot first and ask questions NEVER.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:39:40 AM EST
If anyone enters my house without my permission, they are tresspassing. If they break in my door in the middle of the night, then they obviously have ill will planned out for me, and I will act accordingly. There have been several cases of criminals breaking into residences shouting "Police" or "ATF" or some such. How am I to know who is who without proper identification? Vest and windbreakers emblazoned with Police or Sherriff or whatever are $25 mail order. (Flame suit on) I see NO (that's right, zero) need for no-knock raids. I have yet to see any evidence offered that such tactics are necessary, yet we continue to accept them as if they are.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:51:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:24:31 AM EST
a team raided the town mayors house looking for a crack house!!
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Law enforcement officers have mistakenly broken into more than one mayor's house on raids. In 1992, I was in St Louis doing contract work, and I remember reading about one local case. The police in Venice(sp?), MO broke into the mayor's house. They destroyed some of his property and (according to the mayor) several items of his property were missing. The police knew they were at the wrong address, but proceeded, because someone in the neighborhood said a black man lived there. Well, that black man was the mayor! Luckily, he wasn't at home. The mayor claimed the officers did it because early that week he had spoken-out against a pay raise for them. Either way, it's racism or abuse of power. I remembered the story and cut it out, because the mayor said police or not, the next person who breaks into his house would be shot. BTW, the St. Louis paper had a list of other mayors who had their homes broken into by the police by mistake or because of bad information. You'd think a mayor would be safe from this abuse.z
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:29:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 9:50:35 AM EST by DScott]
I wonder just how many no-knock warrants are served or how many of these SWAT-type raids are carried out each year by law enforcement? Anyone care to guess? Edited to add- The LAPD website states that the LAPD SWAT teams deal with "80 barricaded suspect incidents and 50 high-risk warrants a year". Multiply that times however many SWAT teams there are in the country and you'll get an idea of what these people do. That's alot of SWAT activity! I wonder what the rates or percentages are for mistakes and/or inuries to officers, bad-guys, and "innocents".
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:37:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:42:29 AM EST
Just out of curiosity, what kind of doors do y'all have?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:19:26 AM EST
Just out of curiosity, what kind of doors do y'all have?
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Homemade steel door with a solid oak core. The frame is metal and set into concrete. Aside: to stop the rust, I cold-blued the metal w/ Brownells solution and painted over the blue. Yes, I'm a gunnut. If I remember correctly, I put a 6" x 6" on each side inside the metal frame and into the concrete. Above the door and partially inside top of the frame are three 2" x 16" beams that support the roof. I have a deadbolt in the middle of the door and another near the bottom. I don't have a backdoor (long story, I built the house myself and never got around to putting one in), so the police would probably come through the front. I do have a garage with a side door into the garage from my house. My windows are small and relatively far off of the ground. The window frames and panes are metal, as was popular at the time for cheaper homes. The windows ended-up relatively secure, not because I was interested in making them secure, but because I was cheap. Glass is expensive. At the time, my wife thought I was nuts for building such a solid entry. As one co-worker joked (who is a former LEO), if a group of officer's tried to ram my door down, I'd probably be sued for their injuries.z
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