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Posted: 3/18/2006 1:23:57 PM EDT
For the purposes of a SHTF situation the AR is most likely the best choice due to the weight and amount of mags you can carry. That being established, What is the amount of ammo you could put through it before cleaning would be paramount for functionality and realibility. That being said, would you think carrying a spare bolt to drop in fast along with a can of breakparts cleaner for the gas tube be enough to get the rifle running again in a hurry?
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:25:22 PM EDT
You can't carry enough ammo in a SHTF scenario to jam an AR from being dirty.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:25:56 PM EDT
How many hundreds of suicidally-determined attackers are you expecting? You must have better stuff at your house than I have at mine.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:27:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
You can't carry enough ammo in a SHTF scenario to jam an AR from being dirty.



+1

Given reasonable conditions (like not being in a sandstorm or hiding in a tar pit ) you should be able to fire thousands of rounds out of an AR without cleaning it.

And I'd imagine that during the time it woudl take to fire THAT many rounds, someone might be able to find a few minutes to pull the bolt and carrier, and clean it a little.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:27:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
For the purposes of a SHTF situation the AR is most likely the best choice due to the weight and amount of mags you can carry. That being established, What is the amount of ammo you could put through it before cleaning would be paramount for functionality and realibility. That being said, would you think carrying a spare bolt to drop in fast along with a can of breakparts cleaner for the gas tube be enough to get the rifle running again in a hurry?




If its a quality rifle and you take care of it properly you won't have a problem with it.


Cleaning it whenever your not doing anything is always the best course of action.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:28:36 PM EDT
I love my ar and if bugging out it's what's coming with me. Bugging in I'll take a .50 anyday
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:30:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I love my ar and if bugging out it's what's coming with me. Bugging in I'll take a .50 anyday



What? Just the other day it was the FAL. So which is it? Talk now!
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:30:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many hundreds of suicidally-determined attackers are you expecting? You must have better stuff at your house than I have at mine.



Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:30:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 1:31:05 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:34:31 PM EDT
Having a spare bolt is never a bad idea.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:36:13 PM EDT
Well on my ar rig i can carry 16 mags comfortably and effective. My ak rig i can carry 8 to 9 and theres more wieght and mobility is hindered . You never know how many peeps may be coming at you look at N.O. with Katrina , expect the worst and hope for the best. 400rds is good , 500 would be ideal provided there was no problems with mobility.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:37:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I love my ar and if bugging out it's what's coming with me. Bugging in I'll take a .50 anyday



What? Just the other day it was the FAL. So which is it? Talk now!



You know Mike, I love the fal,but the new 5.56 ammo makes it a tougher decision.

The Fal is my favorite weapon overall. Reliable,accurate and hard hitting at close and long ranges. I've run a couple dozen mags of the TAP ammo thru one of my Colt carbines so far. Very impressive stuff.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:40:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many hundreds of suicidally-determined attackers are you expecting? You must have better stuff at your house than I have at mine.




Anyone who lives in even the smallest town has to worry about the potential for a medium sized horde of zombies.

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:40:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



For the wieght and ability to carry lots of mags its not debatable.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:43:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
Well on my ar rig i can carry 16 mags comfortably and effective. My ak rig i can carry 8 to 9 and theres more wieght and mobility is hindered . You never know how many peeps may be coming at you look at N.O. with Katrina , expect the worst and hope for the best. 400rds is good , 500 would be ideal provided there was no problems with mobility.



Are you talking about bugging in, or going mobile? I don't plan to have more than 9 mags on me when I bug out on foot, but in a vehicle you can have more in an ammo can or something.

If you're bugging out on foot, have you been in the field with the same weight on your back/wearing it? How much food and water can you carry? I mean hell, if I'm only staying local patrolling, I could carry shitloads of AR mags, but I'd never consider anywhere near as many if I had to hike a fair ways.

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:47:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 1:49:42 PM EDT by macman37]
I am certain that in the 50 years of the AR/M16's service that it has had one or two occasions that could be considered "SHTF" and - with the exception of the ball powder/no cleaning kit travesty that happened when they were first issued, the rifle came out with flying colors.

There are a lot of armies out there using the AR type rifle in all kinds of conditions. Armies that have evaluated other systems and have selected this one.

In all honesty I'm still torn as to whether I'd take an AR or an M1a with me should SHTF and I have to bug out. I am a .308 guy, personally, but the realist in me says I'd take the AR because that's what I have for my wife, so we could share mags and ammo.

The more heavier-weight ammo I stockpile, the more comfortable I am with that compromise.

Edit: As to a "torture test" to see how long it takes to choke an AR I have no idea. But you can get a quality OTIS grip-kit cleaning tools for it, or a USGI cleaning kit and just ensure you clean it before you go to bed at night. As I'd do with any rifle I had in SHTF if I shot it more than a couple times during the day. You need that sucker good-to-go at all times.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:48:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
For the purposes of a SHTF situation the AR is most likely the best choice due to the weight and amount of mags you can carry. That being established, What is the amount of ammo you could put through it before cleaning would be paramount for functionality and realibility. That being said, would you think carrying a spare bolt to drop in fast along with a can of breakparts cleaner for the gas tube be enough to get the rifle running again in a hurry?




Really? I thought I could carry more mags and rounds with a 10/22...
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:51:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 1:51:45 PM EDT by long-rifle-tactical]
THEY LIED TO MEEEEEEE!

I was told by the ones in the know that a good SKS with a "full clip" would be sufficient.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:57:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By billclo:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
Well on my ar rig i can carry 16 mags comfortably and effective. My ak rig i can carry 8 to 9 and theres more wieght and mobility is hindered . You never know how many peeps may be coming at you look at N.O. with Katrina , expect the worst and hope for the best. 400rds is good , 500 would be ideal provided there was no problems with mobility.



Are you talking about bugging in, or going mobile? I don't plan to have more than 9 mags on me when I bug out on foot, but in a vehicle you can have more in an ammo can or something.

If you're bugging out on foot, have you been in the field with the same weight on your back/wearing it? How much food and water can you carry? I mean hell, if I'm only staying local patrolling, I could carry shitloads of AR mags, but I'd never consider anywhere near as many if I had to hike a fair ways.
Well , im talking about possibly going mobile, MRE's for three days and about 6 liters of water 450 rds ammo and an 14.5 m4gery.I say three days because 3 days should be enough time to find more food and proper water. Plan to be on foot , you could run out of gas or have people try and take your car .

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:01:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
Having a spare bolt is never a bad idea.


very true... two is one, one is none.

at the same time, most of the dirtiness of the AR is self limiting. you will fire much more ammo than you can carry before shit will build up enough to slow the gun down. it might get less accurate as shit builds up, but with quality ammo, it will run for a LONG time.

even if it does get shitty, a few shots of brake cleaner and CLP will clean it out enough to get running again.

but then again, unless you're mowing down a zombie horde, what kind of shooting are you expecting?
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:04:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



+1
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:22:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mojo_Jojo:

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



+1



+2. Just off the top of my head, the compactness and durability of a side-folder AK74 clone would seem more appealing to me.

However, the AR wins for me... due to much wider ammo choices, weight, and ease of finding replacement parts.

If your idea of "SHTF" stretches into the long term, it's a good idea to look towards weapons that everyone and their dog has, so you can find parts and ammo in times of need. I'm thinking AR, SKS, Rem 870, 10/22, Glock, M9, 1911, and S&W K-frame. At least 2 of each.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:30:21 PM EDT
If SHTF and i have to bug out, then I'm heading really deep in the swamp of Louisiana. All I have to do is go 2 miles up the road and launch the mud boat, then I'm off to the swamps.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:44:21 PM EDT
My torture test on my RR AR15 is about 3 years and 4000+ rounds with no cleaning and no malfunctions. A little squirt of CLP now and then and that is it. When I get my first malfunction I'll clean it. Does this answer your question???
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:45:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
You can't carry enough ammo in a SHTF scenario to jam an AR from being dirty.



+1

Given reasonable conditions (like not being in a sandstorm or hiding in a tar pit ) you should be able to fire thousands of rounds out of an AR without cleaning it.

And I'd imagine that during the time it woudl take to fire THAT many rounds, someone might be able to find a few minutes to pull the bolt and carrier, and clean it a little.

Agreed with the swede.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:00:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 3:01:50 PM EDT by bmick325]
Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:


<snip>very true... two is one, one is none. <snip>


That saying applies to PLANS...not every item you own.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:16:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



For the wieght and ability to carry lots of mags its not debatable.



Just think how many BBs you could carry


Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:29:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
THEY LIED TO MEEEEEEE!

I was told by the ones in the know that a good SKS with a "full clip" would be sufficient.



Actually the SKS is one of the few guns that you would carry full 'clips' for.....
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:31:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
For the purposes of a SHTF situation the AR is most likely the best choice due to the weight and amount of mags you can carry. That being established, What is the amount of ammo you could put through it before cleaning would be paramount for functionality and realibility. That being said, would you think carrying a spare bolt to drop in fast along with a can of breakparts cleaner for the gas tube be enough to get the rifle running again in a hurry?



Haven't you been watching the movies? You go to the mall and lock yourself in to give yourself a respite from the waves of zombies to give yourself weapons cleaning time.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:06:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
Well on my ar rig i can carry 16 mags comfortably and effective. My ak rig i can carry 8 to 9 and theres more wieght and mobility is hindered . You never know how many peeps may be coming at you look at N.O. with Katrina , expect the worst and hope for the best. 400rds is good , 500 would be ideal provided there was no problems with mobility.



16 loaded mags??
No offense my friend but I would suspect you have never carried this type of loadout any distance and if you have I wouls also suspect you carried very little else.
While in Iraq , after adding the weight of all the needed "other" items my complete tact vest mag load was 8 loaded rifle mags and this still pushed up the overall total equpment weight to almost 90lbs.
This did include a small BOB , kevlar , rifle plate vest , etc.
The only ones I ever saw carrying many more mags were PSD types and for the most part they carried almost nothing in the way of survival or bugout gear , only fighting gear, very few wore helmets , etc.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:14:08 PM EDT
I've carried 12 loaded mags before... from my gunsafe to my car.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:22:23 PM EDT
In a SHTF scenerio, if you are blasting ammo at the bad guys, you will eventually lose.

Learn how to evade and strike only when absolutley neccesary...
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:42:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
Well on my ar rig i can carry 16 mags comfortably and effective...



Bet you'd be ditching ammo and leaving a trail like Hansel and Gretel's breadcrumbs before long, wishing you'd brought some water instead...
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:49:30 PM EDT
If you are bugging out in a vehicle several AR's and even spare uppers would be a good idea.
Also scoped bolt guns in .223, .243, 6mm, .257 Roberts, .25-06, .270, .308 or 30-06 would be a good idea.

Shotguns and handguns also.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:04:31 PM EDT


The Fal is my favorite weapon overall. Reliable,accurate and hard hitting at close and long ranges. I've run a couple dozen mags of the TAP ammo thru one of my Colt carbines so far. Very impressive stuff.


Mine too! Here's a torture test for ya..10, 880 rounds so far....http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68486&perpage=30&pagenumber=1
I like the AR fine fer plinkin, but for "serious stuff" make mine a battle rifle....
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 12:44:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drew5337:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
THEY LIED TO MEEEEEEE!

I was told by the ones in the know that a good SKS with a "full clip" would be sufficient.



Actually the SKS is one of the few guns that you would carry full 'clips' for.....



That is why I posted it.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:15:28 AM EDT
You use brake cleaner to clean your gas tube?

You clean your gas tube?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:39:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



Agreed, I'll take an FAL over an AR any day of the week.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:41:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



For the wieght and ability to carry lots of mags its not debatable.



BS, I can carry equall the ammount of ammo in 7.62 as you can in .223. Also the weight of the FAL is pretty close to the same as your uber tactical tricked out AR's.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 4:24:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 9:02:59 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 4:34:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
You use brake cleaner to clean your gas tube?

You clean your gas tube?



I do every so often, does not hurt anything and if you ever have to remove your gas tube it helps to keep the carbon and burn copper out of the recess area.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:29:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
If you are bugging out in a vehicle several AR's and even spare uppers would be a good idea.
Also scoped bolt guns in .223, .243, 6mm, .257 Roberts, .25-06, .270, .308 or 30-06 would be a good idea.

Shotguns and handguns also.



Uh, are you bugging out in an 18-wheeler?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:44:41 PM EDT
The best SHTF rifle is:

The AK-47.

The Ak is the weapon to have if your not going to have and armorer with you, a work bench, gunsmithing tools like punches and such.

If you have to bug out, you will want to have the lowest matainance gear as possible. If something gets bent on an AK or broken, you have a good chance of fixing it with a rock, and a ball-peen hammer. The AK is the most reliable battle rifle ever.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:46:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many hundreds of suicidally-determined attackers are you expecting? You must have better stuff at your house than I have at mine.



I'm taking notes so I can case the joint prior to the S hitting the F.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:49:23 PM EDT
I have always had a bit of a different approach.

For any major event, as a USAR Responder I am concerned with Bugging in more than I am about Bugging out.
So I have always approached this with the idea that I already have too much gear and a near impossible job to do. I don't need too much more weight. I have always figured my Smith & Wesson Model 65 was enough.

For Zombie Attack, most rescue vehicles have chainsaws on them

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 7:09:37 PM EDT
20 or more years ago I hated the AR-15/M-16 platform. I have since changed my mind. The rifle, as it exists today, is reliable and proper maintenance isn't rocket science. It is true that the AK is more reliable. However, that does not imply that the AR is unreliable. The M-16 platform has a long history of leaving a lot of dead men holding AK's. One reason for that is that you can kill the bad guys at distances that they can't hit you at. Anyone that has shot an AR and AK side by side can tell you that. The fire control switches and magazine release/insertion are superior on the AR.

The 5.56 vs 7.62x39 is a tired old arguement and I won't get into it. It is also unrelated to AK vs AR arguements as both are available in various calibers.

The AK is a better weapon for the unskilled and untrained. However, it reaches its maximum potential very quickly in skilled hands. That is where the AR takes over. You do need a little more experience to get the most from an AR. However, once you have invested that time, it pays off.

As far as the number of mags to carry goes. For some odd reason 7 seems good to me.
(One in the rifle and 3 in two mag pouches.)
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:37:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
THEY LIED TO MEEEEEEE!

I was told by the ones in the know that a good SKS with a "full clip" would be sufficient.



Better than nothing.
First rule of a gunfight - have a gun.
If all you can afford is an SKS, get it, and train with it.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:42:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 8:43:25 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By TheLibertarianMind:
The best SHTF rifle is:

The AK-47.

The Ak is the weapon to have if your not going to have and armorer with you, a work bench, gunsmithing tools like punches and such.

If you have to bug out, you will want to have the lowest matainance gear as possible. If something gets bent on an AK or broken, you have a good chance of fixing it with a rock, and a ball-peen hammer. The AK is the most reliable battle rifle ever.



good choice.
Cause ya know, all that 7.62x39mm ammo made in the US.
Go ask the AK guys how they feel with this ammo shortage.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:43:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -M60_Gunner-:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:

Originally Posted By raf:
The underlying premise contained in your first sentence, I.E., that the AR is the best SHTF gun is entirely debatable.



For the wieght and ability to carry lots of mags its not debatable.



BS, I can carry equall the ammount of ammo in 7.62 as you can in .223. Also the weight of the FAL is pretty close to the same as your uber tactical tricked out AR's.



But the point is that 400 rounds of .308 weigh a lot more than 400 rounds of .223, and if you are moving ON FOOT, then the amount of weight you can carry is a zero-sum-game.

For the increase in weight (I'm sure someone can calculate the weight difference between 400 rounds of .308 and .223) you'd have to give up that much in other survival gear.

I'm pretty sure that REAL tradeoff, of having to leave potential valuable survival items behind would be worth the hypothetical value of .308 over .223 in very specific applications that may or may not occur.

That's just me - and obviously only applies to "bugging out" on foot or some such similar scenario. If staying in a fixed position, or in a vehicle - then the downside to .308 is less, but its advantages remain.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:52:31 PM EDT
I have heard a lot of "that couldn't happen here" shit from the locals concerning SHTF. Last week tornados tore through MO and destroyed half of a nearby town. Looters were stealing everything they could get their hands on. Someone made a "You loot, we shoot sign" and people were saying how "redneck" it was. I don't give a shit how redneck it is, you try to steal something of mine, it isn't going to be pretty. Not the worst SHTF, but it can happen to us all.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:08:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By capnrob97:
In a SHTF scenerio, if you are blasting ammo at the bad guys, you will eventually lose.

Learn how to evade and strike only when absolutley neccesary...

+1
If you're using it "post SHTF" and you use more than 2 magazines MAX in a single incident, it's time to haul ass.
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