User Panel
Posted: 12/21/2003 9:19:31 PM EDT
who are the better warriors? if you took a group of say 500 Samurai warriors on horseback to raid a large force of Commance warriors?
I think the Samurai were better warriors and they would cut the Commanches to pieces [:\] |
|
Samurai Schmamarai.
I am SOOO sock of the worship of the Samurai bullshit in US pop culture. The existed in isolation - only fought each other or unarmed peasants. OK, occasionally fought the Dutch and Spanish - but lost every time. They were an overprivileged class of social moochers. The Commanche warriors would DESTROY them. Heck, the Commanches gave the US Army a run for their money, and we had repeating firearms by then. |
|
Quoted: But what if the Comanches were zombies? View Quote Well, which kind of zombie? The slow moving Dawn of the Dead type or the fast moving 28 Days Later type? |
|
Quoted: Samurai Schmamarai. I am SOOO sock of the worship of the Samurai bullshit in US pop culture. The existed in isolation - only fought each other or unarmed peasants. OK, occasionally fought the Dutch and Spanish - but lost every time. They were an overprivileged class of social moochers. The Commanche warriors would DESTROY them. Heck, the Commanches gave the US Army a run for their money, and we had repeating firearms by then. View Quote It would depend which Samurai you are talking about. Tokugawas?, yeah you are correct about a lot. The Asano's? The Minamoto Bakufu? You are dead wrong and way off. Just as you can't take the best of them and make that the standard across the board (it wasn't) you can't take the worst and apply it to all of them. And once they stopped being isolationist, they did pretty good inh modern warfare till we had to nuke them into submission. Barely one generation after modernization they zapped the Russians so hard with their new navy that they were given the kamchatka peninsula to end the war. And a generation later the country the size of California claimed most of the Southeastern Pacific and much of China. It's too bad they didn't adhere to the higher ideals of the Samurai code or Nanking may have fared a little better. |
|
Kind of a heavy cavalry vs light cavalry argument. Samurai would win the first charge and then Commanche would start riding circles around them. Hit hard and heavy using the advantages of their armor and greater weight, but once it became a general melee the tide would shift. Cavalry lost it's usefulness in the assault once infantry gained repeating arms, however as scouts, quick reaction, pursuit and exploitation arms they retained their missions.
Could Samurai live off the plains and in a desert environment like the Commanche? But the Samurai may have been better mounted archers. |
|
But what if during the fighting a Roman phalanx (non zombie) came over the hill?
|
|
You mean Greek?
How about we add a tribe of Scottish highlanders to the mix, just for shits n giggles? |
|
The Jeep Comanche would run circles around the Suzuki Samurai.
|
|
Quoted: Quoted: Samurai Schmamarai. I am SOOO sock of the worship of the Samurai bullshit in US pop culture. The existed in isolation - only fought each other or unarmed peasants. OK, occasionally fought the Dutch and Spanish - but lost every time. They were an overprivileged class of social moochers. The Commanche warriors would DESTROY them. Heck, the Commanches gave the US Army a run for their money, and we had repeating firearms by then. View Quote It would depend which Samurai you are talking about. Tokugawas?, yeah you are correct about a lot. The Asano's? The Minamoto Bakufu? You are dead wrong and way off. Just as you can't take the best of them and make that the standard across the board (it wasn't) you can't take the worst and apply it to all of them. And once they stopped being isolationist, they did pretty good inh modern warfare till we had to nuke them into submission. Barely one generation after modernization they zapped the Russians so hard with their new navy that they were given the kamchatka peninsula to end the war. And a generation later the country the size of California claimed most of the Southeastern Pacific and much of China. It's too bad they didn't adhere to the higher ideals of the Samurai code or Nanking may have fared a little better. View Quote Due to the time period mentioned, I was indeed referring to Samurai at the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate. If my language was a little harsh, it is because the latest Tom Cruise movie has had too many people spouting off as if the Samurai were some sort ultimate warrior. The Samurai did not make the Navy you speak of - the modernization came DESPITE the Samurai, and it shattered their delicate class structure. You could possibly argue that the new modern Japanese military that was so dominant did adopt "Bushido" - so was "sort of" Samurai-like. At that point though, it was more of a warrior code than a class code. It is difficult to fully equate "Bushido" with "Samurai," too, in that the codification was not until ~1600s - Samurai had been around hundreds of years prior to it. |
|
Quoted: You mean Greek? How about we add a tribe of Scottish highlanders to the mix, just for shits n giggles? View Quote Is Ditka driving the bus? Full-sized Ditka or Mini-Ditka? |
|
Samuri hands down!
Better weapons, better training, better tactics, and better armor. |
|
Quoted: But what if during the fighting a Roman phalanx (non zombie) came over the hill? View Quote The Greeks came up with the phalanx but the Romans improved it but then abandoned it because of it's lack of mobility. I didn't want to throw the later Roman Legion in the mix because they would have kicked everybodies ass, including the Scots. [:D] |
|
What about Ninja's? Huh?
Come on, Ninjas would FLY circles around them! |
|
You folks know anything about Texas Indian Tribes?
Karankawa are the bunch I definitely not want to meet the first time. They were nice and cannabalistic. |
|
Ya want tough...bring on the Persian Deghans..or the immortals....
|
|
Oh yeah...you are all a bunch of history geeks...
My name is Scott....I am a history addict... |
|
You know what I'd like to see? A Comanche raid on Barton Creek mall. Only no cavalry this time.
|
|
The rape of Nanking was in part due to that Bushido code and Japanese arrogance. Anyone that is not Japanese and definetly not of the warrior class were subhuman to them. For them to chop up a few Chinese meant as much someone shooting a rabbit.
Give me 500 Hun warriors and its a different story. They would ride circles around the Comanches. Talk about mounted archers. But the Comanches would have had some rifles that may turn the tide. Traditional weapons only and the Gengis would rip the samurai and indians up. |
|
The indians would win, because they would not fight on the enemy's terms.
the other thing is the indians, village vs. village, would annihalate (sp) the samuri. In the indian village, nearly every man was able to fight. Sure there were champions, but they ALL had to have skills. I doubt the same could be said for the samuri |
|
I think Maximus and his Romans would have smoked them both - remember the opening fighting scene from Gladiator? Good Lord...those Dagos sure had it down.
|
|
I think a whole battery of Elf archers could take 'em all.
... er wait... Oh we're dealing with reality here? Well then it's NO contest -- my dad could kick their dads' asses any day. |
|
The indians would win, because they would not fight on the enemy's terms. View Quote Sorry but using that logic they would have run the white invaders off their lands. The 1876 Plains Indians were a Stone Age people with some captured and acquired technology without the ability to support or build on that technology they were doomed from the start. They might have had some limited success but against a sustained and persistent modern opponent they stood no chance. Against a Samurai using even 15th Century Japanese technology they stood no chance with out major outside (modern help). Stone Age people meet Steel they get beat 99.9% of the time… unless you give Custer command. the other thing is the indians, village vs. village, would annihalate (sp) the samuri. In the indian village, nearly every man was able to fight. Sure there were champions, but they ALL had to have skills. I doubt the same could be said for the samuri View Quote The modern romantic myth. The average plains Indian live a brutal borderline existence, on the verge of starvation with an average life span of well under 30 years. Stone Age people meet Steel they get beat. |
|
Quoted: The indians would win, because they would not fight on the enemy's terms. View Quote Sorry but using that logic they would have run the white invaders off their lands. The 1876 Plains Indians were a Stone Age people with some captured and acquired technology without the ability to support or build on that technology they were doomed from the start. They might have had some limited success but against a sustained and persistent modern opponent they stood no chance. Against a Samurai using even 15th Century Japanese technology they stood no chance with out major outside (modern help). Stone Age people meet Steel they get beat 99.9% of the time… unless you give Custer command. the other thing is the indians, village vs. village, would annihalate (sp) the samuri. In the indian village, nearly every man was able to fight. Sure there were champions, but they ALL had to have skills. I doubt the same could be said for the samuri View Quote The modern romantic myth. The average plains Indian live a brutal borderline existence, on the verge of starvation with an average life span of well under 30 years. Stone Age people meet Steel they get beat. View Quote I disagree. The Comanche were absolute experts of mounted warfare and were a driving force in forcing US Army Cavalry to lighten up and change their tactics. Their arrowheads and lances used STEEL, and they used them VERY effectively. If you read up on any of the Texas Ranger or US Cavalry history fighting those guys, you will see that they were a formidable enemy. The Samurai would have been slaughtered. |
|
Quoted: What about Ninja's? Huh? Come on, Ninjas would FLY circles around them! View Quote Actually ninja were identical to indians in so many respects it's almost scary. |
|
The Samurai would have won, no question. They had better weapons and armor. The sword, when used properly, is almost invincible.
|
|
what about a one on one fighting match between
the best SAMURAI vs. the best COMMANCHE WARRIOR? each could use the weapons of their choice, but no firearms only traditional weaponry and hand to hand fighting skills? the Samurai's as individuals were definitely superior fighters compared to an individual Commanche warrior. it would take ten ordinary Commanches to fight a single Samurai with traditional weapons. |
|
Quoted: Due to the time period mentioned, I was indeed referring to Samurai at the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate. If my language was a little harsh, it is because the latest Tom Cruise movie has had too many people spouting off as if the Samurai were some sort ultimate warrior. The Samurai did not make the Navy you speak of - the modernization came DESPITE the Samurai, and it shattered their delicate class structure. You could possibly argue that the new modern Japanese military that was so dominant did adopt "Bushido" - so was "sort of" Samurai-like. At that point though, it was more of a warrior code than a class code. It is difficult to fully equate "Bushido" with "Samurai," too, in that the codification was not until ~1600s - Samurai had been around hundreds of years prior to it. View Quote OK, I was just trying to make a statement about absolutes. Even among the Tokugawa you had the Satsuma as the exception. To offer a better example one could say of Delta that they are just a bunch of JBTs who when they aren't involved in domestic attrocities such as Waco are engaged against lesser third world nations such as Somalia at the beck and call of UN nation builders like Boutros Boutros who have the uncanny ability to slam dunk a 60 into the ground in nearly every AO they are involved in. Now while the above statement may contain a lot of truth, it is hardly fair or indicative of what Delta actually is. |
|
Quoted: what about a one on one fighting match between the best SAMURAI vs. the best COMMANCE WARRIOR? each could use the weapons of their choice, but no firearms only traditional weaponry and hand to hand fighting skills? View Quote Barring projectile or throwing weapons, the Samurai, in four moves maximum. What would the Commance fend off a well-trained katana with? |
|
Quoted: what about a one on one fighting match between the best SAMURAI vs. the best COMMANCE WARRIOR? each could use the weapons of their choice, but no firearms only traditional weaponry and hand to hand fighting skills? View Quote The Samurai would SLAUGHTER the Comanche. Just asking that question shows you don't know much about either group. The Comanche's strength was in their skills with the horse and bow, their lightning fast tactics and the shear distance over which they could move for an operation. Putting a barely clothed Comanche armed with even a lance up agains a Samurai in hand to hand combat would serve no purpose and reveal nothing. |
|
Quoted: I think a whole battery of Elf archers could take 'em all. ... er wait... Oh we're dealing with reality here? Well then it's NO contest -- my dad could kick their dads' asses any day. View Quote Screw the Elves! Men on Oliphants, supported by Urk Hai and Trolls... Wait! They were defeated by the Rohirrim on horseback. That is where my money is. Now back to reality. Bilster |
|
I disagree. The Comanche were absolute experts of mounted warfare and were a driving force in forcing US Army Cavalry to lighten up and change their tactics. Their arrowheads and lances used STEEL, and they used them VERY effectively. If you read up on any of the Texas Ranger or US Cavalry history fighting those guys, you will see that they were a formidable enemy. View Quote 1. The Comanche were OK at hit and run tactics NOT mounted warfare. They could not sustain an attack or repel a sustained attack just run from it leaving behind their families. 2. The Comanche only had the Steel given or traded to them … STEEL arrowheads they got in trade from the whites. They had no technological base and without this trade did not have steel. 3. The Comanche never stood and fought any kind of pitch battle because they did not have the ability to win in a pitched battle. The very tactics and assets that supposedly made the Comanche “expert” mounted warriors were their weakness they COULD NOT protect their homes woman and children. Texas Rangers… it is a telling fact the Comanche could not defeat the small number of Rangers they faced. The Plains Indian tribes were never any appreciable long-term threat to the US they were doomed before any sustained contact was ever made. The myth and romance of the Plains Indian warrior may be a nice fantasy to play with but the simple FACT is the Comanche nor any other Plains tribe COULD halt or even slow down much a sustained attack on them. When the US military decided to finish an Indian opponent they were military done in a matter of months if not weeks. There might be some guerilla clean left up but no real threat. The Samurai would have been slaughtered. View Quote Nope... the Indians would have attacked untill real loses were incurred then withdrew leaving anyone not able to run at the mercy of the Samurai. This is what happens when stone-age people meet a technologically advance foe. The whole point is the US Army could change their tactics to adapt if needed the Comanche were frozen into what the could do and that was it. The Comanche were brave but that is no substitute for technology their military weaknesses far outweighed their strengths. |
|
Max_Mike:
While I agree in part with your assessment of weaknesses in the Comanches, I just don;t understand how the saem could not be said for the Samurai. The Samurai diod not forge their own blades. Where either side got their steel is inconsequential. You keep speaking as if the Samurai were a "modern" foe - they hadn't really changed their weapons and tactics for hundreds of years! The Comanche had access to firearms, but were generally more effective with bows from horseback. I don't understand how they would have been disadvantaged technologically. |
|
Quoted: The Samurai diod not forge their own blades. Where either side got their steel is inconsequential. View Quote OK, not sure what you mean by this. While the individual warriors did not make their own blades for the most part every clan had their own smith. Quoted: You keep speaking as if the Samurai were a "modern" foe - they hadn't really changed their weapons and tactics for hundreds of years! View Quote And this is just completely incorrect. The sword evolvced from early Ken (Chinese) styles, to tachi to katana and the methods of fencing evolved over the years. In fact inovations in sword design and use led to the creation of a new art Iaido. As far as other weapons the Samurai were quick to embrace Portugese firearms and they were the decisive factor at Sekigahara. What you missed was that once Japan was unified under a single ruler (Ieyasu) he protected his position of power by banning the use of firearms for anyone else. He also changed values by going back to the sword and revering it as the primary weapon. In the times of feudal conflict the primary weapon was NOT the sword but the bow and arrow, then firearms and the spear (yari) and halberd (naginata). The Samurai were very practical about their weapon selection. Going "back to the sword" and revering it as a primary weapon was mostly a political move done by the Shogun to consolidate his power. It did however have a practical aspect. Now that conflicts were generally individual, rather than battlefield, matters of self defense the sword did become more practical given the absence of firearms. |
|
While I agree in part with your assessment of weaknesses in the Comanches, I just don;t understand how the saem could not be said for the Samurai. The Samurai diod not forge their own blades. Where either side got their steel is inconsequential. View Quote The culture that produced the Samurai could produce their swords and firearms. Firearms had been in widespread in Japan use from before 1600. The Comanche could not produce steel… period. You keep speaking as if the Samurai were a "modern" foe - they hadn't really changed their weapons and tactics for hundreds of years! View Quote This is a Western stereotype the Samurai. The Samurai adapted their tactics when needed and had in the preceding several hundred years. In the 1600s firearms were in widespread military use in Japan after their civil wars were largely settled they put them back on the shelf but they had the know how. Just look how quickly the Japanese adapted from 1860 to 1900 when they destroyed the Russian military. The Japanese adapted quickly to the modern world when needed the Comanche could not. In 25 years the Japanese went from a curiosity on the world stage to a world power. The Comanche had access to firearms, but were generally more effective with bows from horseback. I don't understand how they would have been disadvantaged technologically. View Quote From a technological standpoint even without firearms the Japanese were 3000 years ahead of the Plains Indians. The metallurgy that went in to the making of a Samurai was the peak of worldwide metallurgy until the 20th century. The Japanese could support the advance technologic they used the Indians could not. If a firearm broke the Indians could not repair it, I they ran out of steel arrowheads they could not make their own. You summed it up above without even knowing it: The Comanche had access to firearms, but were generally more effective with bows from horseback. View Quote This was not by choice but by necessity. The Comanche could not technologically support the use of firearms. They could not make firearms or substantial replacement parts. They did not produce ammunition… so could not be come very proficient in firearms use or come up with adequate supplies of ammunition for war. The Comanche were dependant on what they could trade for… DEPENDANT on outside sources. The Comanche had access to firearms, but were generally more effective with bows from horseback…. Because they HAD to be not because they want to be. The Comanche could technologically support the bow not the firearm. The Comanche were a Stone Age people and never stood or could have stood a chance against White Europeans or would have against Japanese. This in no way detracts from their courage but is just a fact of history. Unfortunately for them the Plains Indian were really no more than a large scale nuisance to the settlement of the West. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Samurai Schmamarai. I am SOOO sock of the worship of the Samurai bullshit in US pop culture. The existed in isolation - only fought each other or unarmed peasants. OK, occasionally fought the Dutch and Spanish - but lost every time. They were an overprivileged class of social moochers. The Commanche warriors would DESTROY them. Heck, the Commanches gave the US Army a run for their money, and we had repeating firearms by then. View Quote It would depend which Samurai you are talking about. Tokugawas?, yeah you are correct about a lot. The Asano's? The Minamoto Bakufu? You are dead wrong and way off. Just as you can't take the best of them and make that the standard across the board (it wasn't) you can't take the worst and apply it to all of them. And once they stopped being isolationist, they did pretty good inh modern warfare till we had to nuke them into submission. Barely one generation after modernization they zapped the Russians so hard with their new navy that they were given the kamchatka peninsula to end the war. And a generation later the country the size of California claimed most of the Southeastern Pacific and much of China. It's too bad they didn't adhere to the higher ideals of the Samurai code or Nanking may have fared a little better. View Quote There is an option to mix & match. How about Tokugawa vs. Blackfoot? Or Asano vs. Apache's? |
|
Quoted: Quoted: The Samurai diod not forge their own blades. Where either side got their steel is inconsequential. View Quote OK, not sure what you mean by this. While the individual warriors did not make their own blades for the most part every clan had their own smith. Quoted: You keep speaking as if the Samurai were a "modern" foe - they hadn't really changed their weapons and tactics for hundreds of years! View Quote And this is just completely incorrect. The sword evolvced from early Ken (Chinese) styles, to tachi to katana and the methods of fencing evolved over the years. In fact inovations in sword design and use led to the creation of a new art Iaido. As far as other weapons the Samurai were quick to embrace Portugese firearms and they were the decisive factor at Sekigahara. What you missed was that once Japan was unified under a single ruler (Ieyasu) he protected his position of power by banning the use of firearms for anyone else. He also changed values by going back to the sword and revering it as the primary weapon. In the times of feudal conflict the primary weapon was NOT the sword but the bow and arrow, then firearms and the spear (yari) and halberd (naginata). The Samurai were very practical about their weapon selection. Going "back to the sword" and revering it as a primary weapon was mostly a political move done by the Shogun to consolidate his power. It did however have a practical aspect. Now that conflicts were generally individual, rather than battlefield, matters of self defense the sword did become more practical given the absence of firearms. View Quote This was all done in the 1600s, no? From then until 1876 (hundreds of years) is what I am talking. Reaching way back prior to that is reaching back to an entirely different group, IMNSHO. The Samurai in the late 1800s were nothing like the Samurai in the earlier years. If you go back THAT far, the Comanche wouldn't even HAVE horses, let alone be expert horesemen (and horse thieves). I seriously doubt that Samurai during the last years of the Tokugawa shogunate could have put up any kind of organized fight against a mounted, mobile enemy with archery skills. I will admit, if you want to go back to the 12th, 13th century, when the Japanese were fighting Mongols - or even to periods of more internal Japanese unrest or trade / conflict with Europeans, you can find Samurai who learned and adopted successful tactics and stretegies. That was HUNDREDS (>250) years before the time we are discussing. Even those more ancient Samurai got clobbered by Europeans, and they were in many ways better armed and trained than they would be in the 1800s. Your last paragraph is exactly why I think the Samurai would not fair well - they had long before quit training for the kind of fight this would be. |
|
Someone want to pass me a steaming mug of who gives a fig? [coffee]
|
|
Quoted: This was all done in the 1600s, no? From then until 1876 (hundreds of years) is what I am talking. Reaching way back prior to that is reaching back to an entirely different group, IMNSHO. The Samurai in the late 1800s were nothing like the Samurai in the earlier years. If you go back THAT far, the Comanche wouldn't even HAVE horses, let alone be expert horesemen (and horse thieves). I seriously doubt that Samurai during the last years of the Tokugawa shogunate could have put up any kind of organized fight against a mounted, mobile enemy with archery skills. I will admit, if you want to go back to the 12th, 13th century, when the Japanese were fighting Mongols - or even to periods of more internal Japanese unrest or trade / conflict with Europeans, you can find Samurai who learned and adopted successful tactics and stretegies. That was HUNDREDS (>250) years before the time we are discussing. Even those more ancient Samurai got clobbered by Europeans, and they were in many ways better armed and trained than they would be in the 1800s. Your last paragraph is exactly why I think the Samurai would not fair well - they had long before quit training for the kind of fight this would be. View Quote But you still can't completely discount the later day Samurai as they continued to produce some remarkably skilled men such as the Satsuma. After the unification of Japan some had nothing better to do than practice and perfect military arts. But given the 1876 context and equal numbers it would ultimately come down to guns. If either side had a monopoly on firearms they would be the victors. If neither side had them I think you'd be surprised out how capable the Samurai would be of falling back on the old ways with remarkable skill. The Indians would certainly be formidable with their ability to quickly adapt to the situation, but given bow and arrow, spears and halberds I think the samurai would dominate. The archers specifically would factor due to their incredible skill, range of the long bow and their unique rapid fire (sorta a double tap)technique. |
|
Quoted: Oh yeah...you are all a bunch of history geeks... My name is Scott....I am a history addict... View Quote Guilty.. but most people that meet me wouldn't consider me a geek by the way I look. They don't realize it until they get to know me. [:D] |
|
[CENTER][IMG]http://www.abovetopsecret.com/images/comanche.jpg[/IMG]
VS [img]http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/1/web/313000-313999/313333_21_full.jpg[/img][/CENTER] Hummmmm??? I wonder. ______________________________________________ [url=www.nra.org][b][red]NRA[/red][/url] [url=www.nra.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][b][red]GOA[/red] [/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.saf.org][red]SAF[/red][/url] [url=www.saf.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][red]SAS[/red][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/b][/url] |
|
Hey we are talking American soldiers here dude,not some Empirial nipos!
I'm going with the Apachies ! Or not Bob [:D][booze] happy birthday lumpy-drawers! |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.