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Posted: 9/3/2004 7:31:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 7:34:16 AM EST by MKSheppard]
From a source I trust, it appears that :



Seer Wrote:

Last report I have says its now 19 out of twenty dead. Three more are holed up in the building basement with some hostages, seven are in another building being pounded by tanks and the rest are fleeing through the countryside pursued by local citizens with deer rifles.

**EDIT** its now been reported that the ones who tried to flee across country (now numbered at 13) are holed up in a house, surrounded by local civilians who are shooting the place apart, brick by brick.

Confirmation awaited.

The best-selling deer rifle in Russia is the Tigr, a civilianized version of the Dragunov SVD. Its wickedly accurate.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:32:43 AM EST
What ever it takes....
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:33:46 AM EST
Imagine the folks who could turn out here to hunt those bastards down.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:37:09 AM EST
You know I THOUGHT that this guy


didn't look like a cop or a soldier...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:38:10 AM EST
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school.quotes/index.html


"The bandits opened fierce fire on the running adults and children. In order to save the lives of the hostages, return fire was opened on the bandits. Local people who were armed also then opened fire on the bandits. This did not allow the special forces to do their work effectively." -- Regional FSB security service chief Valery Andreyev
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:40:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school.quotes/index.html


"The bandits opened fierce fire on the running adults and children. In order to save the lives of the hostages, return fire was opened on the bandits. Local people who were armed also then opened fire on the bandits. This did not allow the special forces to do their work effectively." -- Regional FSB security service chief Valery Andreyev



You know they need a scapegoat for this mess... the fact that this happened at al showed that the FSB wasn't up to snuff to begin with.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:40:49 AM EST
What I wouldn't give to be there right now shooting at those animals!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:43:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By warlord:
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school.quotes/index.html


"The bandits opened fierce fire on the running adults and children. In order to save the lives of the hostages, return fire was opened on the bandits. Local people who were armed also then opened fire on the bandits. This did not allow the special forces to do their work effectively." -- Regional FSB security service chief Valery Andreyev



You know they need a scapegoat for this mess... the fact that this happened at al showed that the FSB wasn't up to snuff to begin with.


Don't know what their plan was, but the civilians added a new dimension to things. I wouldn't sell those Ruskies short, they've been thru this $hit before. But the reality of the situation is that the hostage was pretty goners anyways.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:46:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
You know I THOUGHT that this guy
cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/09/03/20040903074909990002

didn't look like a cop or a soldier...




There's another pic somewhere of a guy in civilian clothes carrying what looks like a Drag with a "hunting stock" and forearm, but a drag reciever and front sight.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:47:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:47:35 AM EST
Are Russians allowed to own guns? What laws do they have?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:49:20 AM EST
Just like the Charles Witman case, guys grabbed their hunting rifles and fired back.

+1 on what ever it takes.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:49:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:

I don't know, maybe the citizens are just pissed and don't give a crap anymore with negotiating with them.





I'd say so, since they apparently caught one who tried to sneak out and beat him to death.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:50:20 AM EST
They opened Season on their own asses early this year......

I also wonder what kinda turn out we'd have for them here !!!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:50:39 AM EST
If it happened in your town, wouldnt that be the equivalent of grabbing up the SHTF rifle and busting off a few 30rnd mags from your own AR.
I cant see anything wrong with this.

Arent all male russians required to have military service, or is that over with now. They should have a little bit of shooting experience if thats the case. Any way More power to them. Hunt them where ever they hide.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:52:25 AM EST
YEAH!!!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:53:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 8:06:09 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]

Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
Are Russians allowed to own guns? What laws do they have?



Any rifle or shotgun you want, including full auto and SBR/SBS.

But no handguns of any kind- that does not stop the Mafia though.

For the last ten years you could buy a REAL M16A2/A4 or M4/M4A1 carbine in Russia with full auto and all evil features for about 1200 to 1400 US. A couple years ago this question came up and someone posted images of a full color Colt ad IN RUSSIAN.

Except for restricting handguns it seems to be kind of like Canada, only with high caps.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:55:16 AM EST
I wish I could buy a Tigr rifle.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:03:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:10:32 AM EST
I sure hope we'd do this here if some idiot did this here. I could see it now: taking aim on the house they're holed up in, you hear someone coming up behind you... Yells out "Arfcom!" and you know they're gonna be a great shot, like pie, and boobies. You all shout "IBTJBT!" as you pick their hiding place apart.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:15:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By Sweep:

I don't know, maybe the citizens are just pissed and don't give a crap anymore with negotiating with them.





I'd say so, since they apparently caught one who tried to sneak out and beat him to death.



I just watched the footage on TV, the crowd tore him apart with their bare hands!

Andy
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:20:23 AM EST
This post is worthles without video!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:21:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By newtoma:
This post is worthles without video!



There is a streaming video feed on the BBC website www.bbc.co.uk

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:21:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By Sweep:

I don't know, maybe the citizens are just pissed and don't give a crap anymore with negotiating with them.





I'd say so, since they apparently caught one who tried to sneak out and beat him to death.



I just watched the footage on TV, the crowd tore him apart with their bare hands!

Andy



Who has the footage! Sky? BBC?

Also

Russians Storm School; 150 May Be Dead

27 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Commandos stormed a school Friday in southern Russia and battled separatist rebels holding 1,200 hostages, as crying children, some naked and covered in blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. An official said the death toll could be significantly higher than 150.


AP Photo


AP Photo
Slideshow: Terrorists Take Children Hostage, Troops End Standoff

Commandos Battle Militants At Besieged School
(AP Video)



Hours after the midday assault, three of the separatist rebels were reportedly still blockaded in a school basement, trading fire with security forces. A Federal Security Service official said militants were still holding hostages — children among them.


The school was largely secured late Friday afternoon, but a large explosion erupted from inside toward nightfall, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. A member of an elite security unit died saving two young girls, the agency reported.


Valery Andreyev, the top Federal Security Service official in the region, said 20 militants were killed, including 10 Arabs. The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been fighting Russian forces in a brutal a war of independence for most of the past decade.


A hostage who escaped told Associated Press Television News that the militants numbered 28, including women wearing camouflage uniforms. The hostage, who identified himself only as Teimuraz, said the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control.


The chaotic climax to the hostage standoff began when explosions collapsed part of the school roof and gunfire erupted from inside the building where the militants, some with explosives strapped to their bodies, stormed the school Wednesday morning.


The militants — demanding independence for nearby Chechnya (news - web sites) — kept the hostages, mostly women and children, in the sweltering gymnasium, refusing to let in food or water.


"They didn't let me go to the toilet for three days, not once. They never let me drink or go to the toilet," Teimuraz, the escaped hostage told APTN.


After the hostage-takers fled, more than 100 bodies were found in the gymnasium, some apparently killed when part of the school's roof collapsed in the explosion that prompted the Russian security forces to move in.


A Putin aide said the total death toll could be significantly more than 150 people. An estimated 520 people were wounded, health officials said. The regional health minister earlier reported that at least 218 children were wounded.


Aslanbek Aslakhanov, Putin's top aide on Chechnya, said security forces did not plan to storm the building, but were prompted to move when the hostage-takers set off explosions early Friday afternoon. Witnesses said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.


Gunfire rang out for hours as security forces chased hostage-takers, who split into small groups as they fled. Interfax and the ITAR-Tass news agency reported the three militants holed up in the basement may include the head of the group. Another group took refuge in a nearby house where tanks moved in.


Huge columns of smoke rose from the school. Windows were shattered, part of roof was gone and another part was charred. Commandos, residents and journalists scurried around the building and soldiers climbed inside through a lower floor window, all the glass missing.


People ran through the streets, and the wounded were carried off on stretchers. An Associated Press reporter saw ambulances speeding by, the windows streaked with blood. Four armed men in civilian clothes ran by, shouting, "A militant ran this way."


Soldiers and men in civilian clothes carried children — some naked, some clad only in underpants, some covered in blood — to a temporary hospital set up behind an armored personnel carrier. One child had a bandage on her head, others had bandaged limbs. Some women, newly freed from the school, fainted.


The children drank eagerly from bottles of water given to them once they reached safety. Many of the children were naked or only partly clothed because of the stifling heat in the gymnasium.


"I am helping you," a man dressed in camouflage told a crying girl. Women gathered around, trying to soothe her, saying "It's all right. It's all right."





A cameraman for the British network ITN reported seeing around 100 bodies in the gym. The correspondent for Russia's Interfax news agency reported that there were dozens of bodies in the school, including about 100 in the gym, and that some were killed when the building's roof collapsed from an explosion before the main assault began.

Sixty of the bodies in the gymnasium have been identified, said Andreyev, the chief of the Federal Security Service in North Ossetia said.

A nurse spread clean sheets on stretchers, and told AP that Russian officials expected "very many" wounded.

The White House branded the hostage-taking "barbaric" and "despicable" and said responsibility for dozens of lost lives rests with the terrorists. "The United States stands side-by-side with Russia in our global fight against terrorism," spokesman Scott McClellan said.

President Bush (news - web sites) was briefed on developments in Russia Friday morning before a re-election rally in Pennsylvania. He did not talk about the Russian terrorism during his speech.

The chaos erupted on the third day of the hostage standoff in Beslan, a town of 30,000 in North Ossetia, a republic near the wartorn region of Chechnya. North Ossetia's president, Alexander Dzasokhov, said Friday the militants had demanded independence for Chechnya — the first official word connecting the hostage-taking to the conflict that has fueled Russia's worst terror attacks.

The violence began after militants had agreed to let Russia retrieve the bodies of people killed early in the raid. Explosions went off as the emergency personnel went to get the bodies at around 1 p.m., collapsing part of the roof of the building, and hostages took the noise as a signal to flee, officials said.

Militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and security forces returned fire. Once the hostage-takers sought to escape, Russian officials apparently made the decision to storm the building.

The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities tried to storm it, but all indications suggested the explosions began before the assault. Russian officials repeatedly said they were not planning to invade and had earlier won the release of 26 hostages through negotiations.

The hostage-takers' identities were murky. Lev Dzugayev, a North Ossetian official, said the attackers might be from Chechnya or Ingushetia. Law enforcement sources in North Ossetia and Ingushetia, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the attackers were believed to include Chechens, Ingush, Russians and a North Ossetian suspected of participating in the Ingushetia violence.

Insurgents fought an earlier war for Chechen independence, a conflict that ended in stalemate. In the years since, the rebels and their sympathizers have increasingly taken to assaults and attacks outside the tiny republic.

Negotiators said the hostage-takers had repeatedly refused offers of food and water throughout the standoff.

"They are very cruel people, we are facing a ruthless enemy," said Leonid Roshal, a pediatrician involved in the negotiations. "I talked with them many times on my cell phone, but every time I ask to give food, water and medicine to the hostages they refuse my request."

The school seizure came a day after a suspected Chechen suicide bomber blew herself up outside a Moscow subway station, killing nine people, and just over a week after 90 people died in two plane crashes that are suspected to have been blown up by bombers also linked to Chechnya.

In a 2002 theater raid in Moscow, Chechen rebels took about 800 hostages during a performance, a standoff that ended after a knockout gas was pumped into the building, debilitating the captors but causing almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

On Thursday, the militants had freed about 26 hostages, all women and children.



Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:25:43 AM EST
It's wabbit season!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:34:22 AM EST

Unlike the suicide bombers, these terrorist want to live for some reason. Guess they aren't as dedicated.


Terrorists are pussies...this just proves it again...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:43:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Unlike the suicide bombers, these terrorist want to live for some reason. Guess they aren't as dedicated.


Terrorists are pussies...this just proves it again...


These folks are only brave against unarm women and children. True terrorists in every sense.

There's a pic of a man put a white sheet over a dead child at the BBC website.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:33:03 AM EST


These guys don't much look like soldiers either, nor does that guy on the lefts weapon look particularly military...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:48:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 10:49:03 AM EST by motown_steve]
If I had a group of terrorists running down my street and exchanging gunfire with the police, I can tell you for certain what I would do!

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:02:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By warlord:
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school.quotes/index.html


"The bandits opened fierce fire on the running adults and children. In order to save the lives of the hostages, return fire was opened on the bandits. Local people who were armed also then opened fire on the bandits. This did not allow the special forces to do their work effectively." -- Regional FSB security service chief Valery Andreyev



You know they need a scapegoat for this mess... the fact that this happened at al showed that the FSB wasn't up to snuff to begin with.


Don't know what their plan was, but the civilians added a new dimension to things. I wouldn't sell those Ruskies short, they've been thru this $hit before. But the reality of the situation is that the hostage was pretty goners anyways.



Damned if you do, damned if you don't. One could try lunging at one of the female suicide bombers if the male leader and/or a group of male militants are standing nearby. She'd either detonate and take out a mess of them, or would either freeze...or be told not to take them with her. Move quick enough and she'd lose her grip on the detonator.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:18:00 AM EST

These guys don't much look like soldiers either, nor does that guy on the lefts weapon look particularly military...


They are called the Militia. Something we used to be prowd of, wrote songs about. Now it isn't even PC enough for the Russians to call them what they are.


Damned if you do, damned if you don't. One could try lunging at one of the female suicide bombers if the male leader and/or a group of male militants are standing nearby. She'd either detonate and take out a mess of them, or would either freeze...or be told not to take them with her. Move quick enough and she'd lose her grip on the detonator.


I would rather die on my feet. Let's ROLL ASSHOLE.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:20:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:
I sure hope we'd do this here if some idiot did this here. I could see it now: taking aim on the house they're holed up in, you hear someone coming up behind you... Yells out "Arfcom!" and you know they're gonna be a great shot, like pie, and boobies. You all shout "IBTJBT!" as you pick their hiding place apart.



"IBTJBT"

Now that made me spew coffee... NICELY DONE!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:22:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:30:24 AM EST


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
Are Russians allowed to own guns? What laws do they have?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Any rifle or shotgun you want, including full auto and SBR/SBS.

But no handguns of any kind- that does not stop the Mafia though.

For the last ten years you could buy a REAL M16A2/A4 or M4/M4A1 carbine in Russia with full auto and all evil features for about 1200 to 1400 US. A couple years ago this question came up and someone posted images of a full color Colt ad IN RUSSIAN.

Except for restricting handguns it seems to be kind of like Canada, only with high caps.



ArmdLbrl, I think that you might be mistaken. I know a Russian guy who is mid-level in a Russian city police force & he hasn't been able to get his hands on an "official" police-owned rifle since he was in the military 10 - 15 years ago. He carries a Makarov & has to qualify with it monthly, but never with any rifles. BTW, he is in Siberia, which is a long way from North Ossetia, so there may be some state/province gun control issues also.

If you are right, though, I want to go over there right away, rent an F/A AK at one of their ranges & have some fun!

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:31:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:31:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 11:41:06 AM EST by jblachly]

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For the last ten years you could buy a REAL M16A2/A4 or M4/M4A1 carbine in Russia with full auto and all evil features for about 1200 to 1400 US. A couple years ago this question came up and someone posted images of a full color Colt ad IN RUSSIAN.





No way the US government lets Colt export full-auto -- State Dept makes you have a governmental end-user certificate to export MGs, non ?


edit: I cant find any BBC footage/story on the crowd shooting or beating escaped Chechyn terrorists...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:35:23 AM EST
Russian gun-laws are simple. NO pistols or handguns of any kind unless you're in the Army (and have been issued the pistol), or a police officer.
You need a simple permit to own a shotgun, and a different permit for rifle. I think but I'm not sure, that it's a hunting permit which allows one to own either for hunting, and another permit just for shotguns for home-defense. Atleast that's how I remember it from my last trip to the Ukraine (which as I understand it more or less mirrors Russian gun-laws).
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:37:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:47:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
Are Russians allowed to own guns? What laws do they have?



I got a Russian friend who say they arent supposed to have em but everyone does. He's an ex para-rescue Afgan vet who recently became an American citizen.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:56:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:57:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 11:59:46 AM EST by 2_of_5]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:





Sadly, this is probably heading to a school here in the US.

Sad too that if that picture was taken in let's say Ohio, the neighbor or parent with the rifle above on the street would probably be arrested. Can't have the public roaming around armed, now can we?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:01:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040902/capt.sge.gdk28.020904132746.photo02.default-384x255.jpg

us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040902/i/r2309977912.jpg



First one is a guy from some mil force I read
second is cops..

thats how the pics were labeled in another thread
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:06:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
The best-selling deer rifle in Russia is the Tigr, a civilianized version of the Dragunov SVD.

where was this stated?

that would be like saying the m1a is the best selling deer rifle in the usa. the tigr is very exspensive compared to the raft of other russian hunting arms avaialable.

Its wickedly accurate.

compared to 'what'?

There's another pic somewhere of a guy in civilian clothes carrying what looks like a Drag with a "hunting stock" and forearm, but a drag reciever and front sight.

i believe that was a vepr...a kalashinkov variant built on the rpk receiver by molot and sporterized into a hunting rifle. it could have also be a saiga (sporterized akm) built by izhevsk hunting rifle...the pic was not clear enough to make an accurate determination.





and they say dargs and aks arent "sporting" die import ban die!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:15:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:23:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
Are Russians allowed to own guns? What laws do they have?



Any rifle or shotgun you want, including full auto and SBR/SBS.

AND the Flat Tax.

Cold War's over and the sumbitches are more 'Free' than We are.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:23:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:25:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
I got a Russian friend who say they arent supposed to have em but everyone does.

this is, as near as i can determine, the truth of the current state of russian civilian small arms ownership...especially in the southern republics/states.



Dad used to work with a Hungarian immigrant who said it was pretty much the same back in the old country. Enuff vodka, smokes & cash would get you a AK that "fell off the back of a truck" from the nearby underpaid homesick Russki conscript troops.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:29:12 PM EST
GET SOME IVAN!

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:29:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:31:40 PM EST
for the animals they are ,they should be hunted down and skinned.
f**k em all, these islamic extremist. i'm tired of this sh8t!!!! is it gonna be our school next? what if those were our children, wives and mothers? what are we waiting for? they are KILLING CHILDREN AND WOMEN.
our gov't needs to let loose and start kicking the living sh8t every last jihadi vermin. bottom line!

meat
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:39:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Dad used to work with a Hungarian immigrant who said it was pretty much the same back in the old country. Enuff vodka, smokes & cash would get you a AK that "fell off the back of a truck" from the nearby underpaid homesick Russki conscript troops.




ARFCOM sponsored range trip to Russia?
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