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Posted: 8/15/2013 3:54:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 4:17:48 PM EDT
Is this for general health and well being or a training methodology?

What is your desired end state?
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 4:18:08 PM EDT
Studies have shown running and joint problems are not well correlated.  Injuries and genetics seem to be more correlated.  I also contend that prolonged joint dysfunction may play a roll as well.

Why not vary?
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 4:40:17 PM EDT
My $0.02 5K 3x, 10K 2x with 2 off days/ week.

Spread out your longer runs (gradually increase one to a more manly 10-12 miles )

Add in one track/speed day per week (instead of 5K, run 20 mins before and 20 mins after your track work).

I like to mix up my distances, and giving your body a couple of recovery days is a nice idea, especially if 25 is in your rearview mirror.

Also vary the pace on your short and medium runs. Do some intervals, do some fartleks.
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 4:43:38 PM EDT
In general, I would recommend the higher frequency plan.  Lots of reasons but bottom line, for running it seems to work better for most folks.  Also, when life gets in the way and you miss your run, you've only lost 1/6 of your weekly total, not 1/3.
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 5:04:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 5:11:09 PM EDT
I stand by my statement. I'll let you skate on the track work because I'm nice like that...
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 5:14:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Studies have shown running and joint problems are not well correlated.  Injuries and genetics seem to be more correlated.  I also contend that prolonged joint dysfunction may play a roll as well.

Why not vary?
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Studies also show that long term runners report lower levels of joint pain as they age than do non runners.
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 5:37:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 5:54:08 PM EDT
Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 5:56:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 6:24:30 PM EDT
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Yeah, I lift either two or three times a week.  It'll be three once I get the rack into the house, but that might b another month or two.
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?


Yeah, I lift either two or three times a week.  It'll be three once I get the rack into the house, but that might b another month or two.



Excellent!

I would vary the running depending on how you feel and how hard you plan to lift or have lifted.  For example, I wouldn't go for a long run or do a hard run the day before or after lifting heavy.  Ability or recovery may be impeded.
Link Posted: 8/15/2013 6:50:07 PM EDT
You'll never get anywhere running kilometers, you need to be running miles










Link Posted: 8/16/2013 5:17:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 5:48:22 AM EDT
Well that just depends on how much time you have available or want to spend working out.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 5:50:43 AM EDT
Quoted:
Which do you think is better, and for what reasons?

I'm wondering what the advantages (and disadvatages) of either approach is.  Obviously, with the 10k approach, I'd get a "rest day" every other day.  But with the 5k, I'd never have to do the "longer" 10k run.  Is one "better" for joints, for example?

What do y'all think?  I'd love to hear any opinions or experiences.
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What crazy demonic thing has possessed you to do such an evil thing such as running. Work ofthe  devil I tell'ya!
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 6:24:51 AM EDT
"You people" get better results on the rowing machine.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 6:49:42 AM EDT
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That's exactly part of the reason I wonder if 3x 10k might be "better" - because I could lift on the days I wasn't running.
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?


Yeah, I lift either two or three times a week.  It'll be three once I get the rack into the house, but that might b another month or two.



Excellent!

I would vary the running depending on how you feel and how hard you plan to lift or have lifted.  For example, I wouldn't go for a long run or do a hard run the day before or after lifting heavy.  Ability or recovery may be impeded.


That's exactly part of the reason I wonder if 3x 10k might be "better" - because I could lift on the days I wasn't running.



You can run and lift on the same day just run accordingly or lift accordingly.  They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 7:01:01 AM EDT
I don't recommend squats and straight leg dead lifts on the same day as a long run.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 7:19:06 AM EDT
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I don't recommend squats and straight leg dead lifts on the same day as a long run.
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5k isn't a long run
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 7:32:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 7:34:35 AM EDT
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5k isn't a long run
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I don't recommend squats and straight leg dead lifts on the same day as a long run.


5k isn't a long run



I know. 5k is a warm up run.

Look up, I recommended 10+ miles  earlier.

If you're not used to running, 10K seems like a lot. All I'm saying is that putting your longer runs on "leg day" isn't a great idea.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 7:37:48 AM EDT
For general health, focus on lifting weights more than running. The high intensity intervals of weight training will be better for your heart than running in the long run.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 11:10:01 AM EDT
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I know. 5k is a warm up run.

Look up, I recommended 10+ miles  earlier.

If you're not used to running, 10K seems like a lot. All I'm saying is that putting your longer runs on "leg day" isn't a great idea.
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I don't recommend squats and straight leg dead lifts on the same day as a long run.


5k isn't a long run



I know. 5k is a warm up run.

Look up, I recommended 10+ miles  earlier.

If you're not used to running, 10K seems like a lot. All I'm saying is that putting your longer runs on "leg day" isn't a great idea.



This really depends on the person. I'll run and squat on the same day WAY before I run and deadlift on the same day. Deadlifting is just a lot more taxing on me, where I could go run an "ok" 5k after my 5/3/1 squat day (as long as I don't go crazy with accessory work).
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 11:17:10 AM EDT
Neither.

If you are runnig to stay fit, do high intensity interval training.

Warm up run for 3 minutes.

Flat out sprint for 30 seconds.

Jog for 3 minutes

Flat out sprint for 30 seconds.

Do about 6-10 sets of this.

Your overall pace will be about that of a 5k (At least it is for me), but you are destroying calories and really strengthening your cardio, not to mention your sprints and overall endurance time will greatly improve. The downside. HIIT is hard as F$%#!

ETA: You can do HIIT about 3 days a week. Resting in between days.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 11:22:28 AM EDT
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This really depends on the person. I'll run and squat on the same day WAY before I run and deadlift on the same day. Deadlifting is just a lot more taxing on me, where I could go run an "ok" 5k after my 5/3/1 squat day (as long as I don't go crazy with accessory work).
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I don't recommend squats and straight leg dead lifts on the same day as a long run.


5k isn't a long run



I know. 5k is a warm up run.

Look up, I recommended 10+ miles  earlier.

If you're not used to running, 10K seems like a lot. All I'm saying is that putting your longer runs on "leg day" isn't a great idea.



This really depends on the person. I'll run and squat on the same day WAY before I run and deadlift on the same day. Deadlifting is just a lot more taxing on me, where I could go run an "ok" 5k after my 5/3/1 squat day (as long as I don't go crazy with accessory work).



5K is a popcorn fart of a run, if you're used to running.  Running a leisurely 5k on leg day shouldn't be a big deal, but running 6-12 miles or doing speed work on the track (which is a lot harder on your bod than a nice easy 5K) on leg day (for me anyway) would be a disaster.

That said, I can't seem to stay off crutches enough these days to do anything but slowly transform myself into the Stay-Puft marshmallow man.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 11:28:34 AM EDT
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5K is a popcorn fart of a run, if you're used to running.  Running a leisurely 5k on leg day shouldn't be a big deal, but running 6-12 miles or doing speed work on the track (which is a lot harder on your bod than a nice easy 5K) on leg day (for me anyway) would be a disaster.

That said, I can't seem to stay off crutches enough these days to do anything but slowly transform myself into the Stay-Puft marshmallow man.
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I don't recommend squats and straight leg dead lifts on the same day as a long run.


5k isn't a long run



I know. 5k is a warm up run.

Look up, I recommended 10+ miles  earlier.

If you're not used to running, 10K seems like a lot. All I'm saying is that putting your longer runs on "leg day" isn't a great idea.



This really depends on the person. I'll run and squat on the same day WAY before I run and deadlift on the same day. Deadlifting is just a lot more taxing on me, where I could go run an "ok" 5k after my 5/3/1 squat day (as long as I don't go crazy with accessory work).



5K is a popcorn fart of a run, if you're used to running.  Running a leisurely 5k on leg day shouldn't be a big deal, but running 6-12 miles or doing speed work on the track (which is a lot harder on your bod than a nice easy 5K) on leg day (for me anyway) would be a disaster.

That said, I can't seem to stay off crutches enough these days to do anything but slowly transform myself into the Stay-Puft marshmallow man.


Right, got you. Simple solution: never run further than 5k
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 11:39:00 AM EDT
If you do squats/deads and you're not totally wrecked afterward, you're not doing it right.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 12:06:51 PM EDT
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If you do squats/deads and you're not totally wrecked afterward, you're not doing it right.
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Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 12:13:31 PM EDT
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Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.
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If you do squats/deads and you're not totally wrecked afterward, you're not doing it right.


Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.


Walking around like a cripple afterward is part of the fun.

Jimmy-legs FTW
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 12:20:28 PM EDT
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Walking around like a cripple afterward is part of the fun.

Jimmy-legs FTW
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If you do squats/deads and you're not totally wrecked afterward, you're not doing it right.


Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.


Walking around like a cripple afterward is part of the fun.

Jimmy-legs FTW


heh not for me. I have a 2x+ bw squat and damn near 2x bw front squat and I rarely get so sore I hobble around....which means I get to train more, and rarely miss a day due to being too sore
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 12:26:01 PM EDT
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Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.
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If you do squats/deads and you're not totally wrecked afterward, you're not doing it right.


Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.


I put 100 lbs on my deadlift and 75lbs on squat in a few months without wrecking myself.  Well the first few weeks it sucked.

The days of killing yourself to see results is over.


OP, I start on Monday and run 3, 4, 5, 4, 3 each day until Friday, the run a long run on Saturday of increasing mileage depending on what week it is.

I also lift and crossfit during the week too
Link Posted: 8/16/2013 12:34:15 PM EDT
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I put 100 lbs on my deadlift and 75lbs on squat in a few months without wrecking myself.  Well the first few weeks it sucked.

The days of killing yourself to see results is over.


OP, I start on Monday and run 3, 4, 5, 4, 3 each day until Friday, the run a long run on Saturday of increasing mileage depending on what week it is.

I also lift and crossfit during the week too
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If you do squats/deads and you're not totally wrecked afterward, you're not doing it right.


Well c'mon and lift with me sometime and we'll see if you change your tune.

You do NOT have to wreck yourself to see massive gains.


I put 100 lbs on my deadlift and 75lbs on squat in a few months without wrecking myself.  Well the first few weeks it sucked.

The days of killing yourself to see results is over.


OP, I start on Monday and run 3, 4, 5, 4, 3 each day until Friday, the run a long run on Saturday of increasing mileage depending on what week it is.

I also lift and crossfit during the week too


In bold is the truth.  

Repeat after me - there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to kill yourself to make gains.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 11:49:38 AM EDT
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?
View Quote


Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 12:07:33 PM EDT
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Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?


Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".



Are you not increasing the resistance in SS over time?  Eventually, I would say that you would want to change your rep scheme if all you did was 3x5 even if you were increasing resistance.

If the OP plans to run the same distance the same way every time, then yes he will become accustom to the run and see no improvement after a short time as the body will have adapted to the stress placed upon it.

I am not warning anyone off, just a different approach.

Link Posted: 8/17/2013 12:46:26 PM EDT
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Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?


Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".


Because you increase weight each workout, until you can't anymore- then you do a different program.

I mean I think we all agree, even for someone who running is #1 priority just running a 5k everyday isn't going to get them where they want to be.

ETA- like Kev said, you have to stress the body to force adaptation. If you do the same thing every time then you're not adding stress, your body will stop adapting as much as the current stress becomes "normal'
That's why you add weight, vary run speed/distance or whatever.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 12:53:46 PM EDT
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Because you increase weight each workout, until you can't anymore- then you do a different program.
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?


Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".


Because you increase weight each workout, until you can't anymore- then you do a different program.


Just like you could run the 5K faster or cover more distance in the same time or do run hills or in soft sand.  

Quoted:I mean I think we all agree, even for someone who running is #1 priority just running a 5k everyday isn't going to get them where they want to be.


Completely agree, just like for someone who has powerlifting as a main priority, doing nothing but 3x5  won't get them to where they want to be.  My point is that when someone says that they'd like to start strength training, nobody says that 3x5 is suboptimal because eventually your body will get used to it.

Just get the person started with something simple.  When he or she plateaus, folks are here to offer additional advice on making continued forward progress.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 12:55:58 PM EDT
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Just like you could run the 5K faster or cover more distance in the same time.  



Completely agree, just like for someone who has powerlifting as a main priority, doing nothing but 3x5  won't get them to where they want to be.  My point is that when someone says that they'd like to start strength training, nobody says that 3x5 is suboptimal because eventually your body will get used to it.
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Again, why not vary?
Eventually your body will become accustom to the same run over time.

Are you lifting weights?


Funny, I have yet to read someone warning someone off of SS because "your body will become accustomed to 3x5 over time".


Because you increase weight each workout, until you can't anymore- then you do a different program.


Just like you could run the 5K faster or cover more distance in the same time.  

Quoted:I mean I think we all agree, even for someone who running is #1 priority just running a 5k everyday isn't going to get them where they want to be.


Completely agree, just like for someone who has powerlifting as a main priority, doing nothing but 3x5  won't get them to where they want to be.  My point is that when someone says that they'd like to start strength training, nobody says that 3x5 is suboptimal because eventually your body will get used to it.


Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 12:58:16 PM EDT
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Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.
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Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 1:00:21 PM EDT
I would contend that by varying the intensity and volume may result in faster improvement.  It takes time to recover, no matter what stage anyone is at.  The trick is doing enough to improve or enough to help with recovery and speed progression.
My training program is 3x5 based but I don't do the same percentages every time I lift and some days I do alternative lifts, seeing quick progression.

Link Posted: 8/17/2013 1:05:01 PM EDT
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Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.
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Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.


Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.


I didn't mean to imply that it was. Only that doing the same thing day in and day out is usually not preferable over varying it.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 2:39:53 PM EDT
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Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.
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Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.


Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.




Shit runners say.
Link Posted: 8/17/2013 9:05:50 PM EDT
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Shit runners say.
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Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.


Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.




Shit runners say.


No shit. Worse than horse people.
Link Posted: 8/20/2013 7:35:48 PM EDT

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No shit. Worse than horse people.

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Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.




Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.








Shit runners say.




No shit. Worse than horse people.

I'll never be advance then

 



But in all seriousness, I'm training for a marathon and many marathon training programs I've seen (if you want to call that advance), low end weekly milage programs are around 40-50 miles during peak weekss and I've seen really advanced programs approaching 100.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 1:21:44 PM EDT
For me, running every other day keeps me from burning out as I likely would with a daily routine.  I vote for fewer, but higher mileage runs, besides, building endurance is its own reward!
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 1:43:26 PM EDT
Run 3 or 4 days a week with only 1 run being longer distance. The shorter runs can be a faster pace and the longer run should be slower.

Studies have shown at least 3 days a week is needed, but rest days are important as well. The body needs time to recover. Some can run 7 days a week, but I've bnever liked to do so. Much better with at least 2 days off of running a week.


I've usually run a marathon every year and have run ultras as well. I'm in my mid-forties and have managed to keep all of my marathons around the three and a half hour mark.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 1:46:33 PM EDT
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But in all seriousness, I'm training for a marathon and many marathon training programs I've seen (if you want to call that advance), low end weekly milage programs are around 40-50 miles during peak weekss and I've seen really advanced programs approaching 100.
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Agreed. Even training for my Ultra last year I never got above 55 miles in a week. Quality of the run is more important than quantity.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 1:48:39 PM EDT
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Which do you think is better, and for what reasons?

I'm wondering what the advantages (and disadvatages) of either approach is.  Obviously, with the 10k approach, I'd get a "rest day" every other day.  But with the 5k, I'd never have to do the "longer" 10k run.  Is one "better" for joints, for example?

What do y'all think?  I'd love to hear any opinions or experiences.
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How about alternate between those two each week?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 7:26:50 AM EDT
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I'll never be advance then  

But in all seriousness, I'm training for a marathon and many marathon training programs I've seen (if you want to call that advance), low end weekly milage programs are around 40-50 miles during peak weekss and I've seen really advanced programs approaching 100.
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Right, that's because it's a beginning program. Anyone that's an intermediate lifter is going to get a different recommendation, because 3x5 IS going to be suboptimal.


Running 18 miles per week is not an advanced program.




Shit runners say.


No shit. Worse than horse people.
I'll never be advance then  

But in all seriousness, I'm training for a marathon and many marathon training programs I've seen (if you want to call that advance), low end weekly milage programs are around 40-50 miles during peak weekss and I've seen really advanced programs approaching 100.


Thats just plain retarded.  I know some sub elite/elite runners who dont approach that for 50k training.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:42:00 PM EDT
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Thats just plain retarded.  I know some sub elite/elite runners who dont approach that for 50k training.
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The two Oly trials runners (female) I know put in 85-105 mpw during their heavy training times building for the trials.

Jenn Shelton told me that she routinely did 20 milers on back to back days and ran 10-15 most other days of the week, but she wasn't the most thorough record keeper .  This was in the '07-'08 timeframe when she still lived in VA Beach and was working at the tri shop where I part timed building bikes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:14:15 PM EDT
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The two Oly trials runners (female) I know put in 85-105 mpw during their heavy training times building for the trials.

Jenn Shelton told me that she routinely did 20 milers on back to back days and ran 10-15 most other days of the week, but she wasn't the most thorough record keeper .  This was in the '07-'08 timeframe when she still lived in VA Beach and was working at the tri shop where I part timed building bikes.
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Thats just plain retarded.  I know some sub elite/elite runners who dont approach that for 50k training.


The two Oly trials runners (female) I know put in 85-105 mpw during their heavy training times building for the trials.

Jenn Shelton told me that she routinely did 20 milers on back to back days and ran 10-15 most other days of the week, but she wasn't the most thorough record keeper .  This was in the '07-'08 timeframe when she still lived in VA Beach and was working at the tri shop where I part timed building bikes.


Yup.  Less than 5% of the running population that can handle that amount of volume.  The rest that do, end up out because their bodies cant handle the grind.

ETA:  What was your heavy training volume like back in the day, Jolly?
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