I'm in negotiation with a dealer regarding trading my Ruger Redhawk in towards a Hesse RPK parts kit AK-47.

This well dressed guy in his 50's comes over while we're negotiating and when the dealer hands me back the gun, he asks me "Any extra Magazines with that?" I respond. "It's a revolver." He says "what do you want for it." and I tell him the same thing I told the dealer. he responds "That sounds good." and I tell him he would also have to pay for the transfer. (Private sales of handguns have been unlawful in PA for about 20 years. You can still do private long gun sales).

He asks me to sell it to him without paper. I tell him that that is a crime. He smiles and walks off.  As I'm leaving the show I run into the same guy. he offers to pay me more than I was asking if I'll sell it without paper.

I graciously declined. I considered telling the cop at the door that there was a guy inside soliciting the commision of a felony, but since I had my 10 year old with me, I didn't want to have to get her involved.

Him being an ATF shill is a best-case scenario.. more likely he was an anti-gunner trying to prove some statistic with you.

LOL

How do you know it's the ATF?

I doubt that the ATF would be looking for violations of state law.

He was probably some form of local LEO, not ATF. Don't know for sure, I'm just sure he was looking to make trouble.

I agree.

Gosh, I wonder what would happen if those in our "law enforcement community" would put their attention on busting people who willingly commit crimes everyday...instead of trying to incite law-abiding citizens to violate arbitrary technicalities of the law.

I wonder how many armed robberies were being commited in your community while this was going on.

I would have been tempted to threaten to shoot the guy with the damn thing if he didn't leave me alone.

Its the same old BULLSHIT!!!. You should have told the Bastard to go and F#*k himself.
Who cares who he is. A cop,The feds or just some dirtbag.
You did the right thing but its to bad you had your kid with you. You could have told the guy off properly.

I doubt it was an LEO, state or federal, based on what he did. If the guy repeatedly made an offer (after you declined his first one) and tried to pressure you by giving HIGHER than the asking price, that is entrapment or at least dangerously close to it. Entrapment by definition occurs when the state induces you to commit a crime that you're not otherwise inclined to commit.

Either way you clearly did the right thing.

You should have told him if he really wanted to help that you have a couple of big dogs at home that need some oral favors and could he take care of the two of them.
F*cking stupid bastard!Amazing what these Fed scum suckers will stoop to.

You can bet that if DavidC [b]had[/b] sold the gun to the man without paper, the cuffs would have been slapped on and at the trial the "LEO" would have said:

"yes, I asked the defendant how much he wanted for the revolver in question and his reply was '$300 with a transfer form, or $400 with no paperwork done.' I then asked if it was illegal to sell a handgun without filling out the paperwork for a transfer, and he said 'yeah, but who's gonna find out? I do this all the time, both buying and selling. There's a big market for guns that can't be traced past the original sale.' So I gave him the money and arrested him when he handed me the revolver."

It's his word against yours, and he's a cop, scout leader, deacon in his church, officer in Kiwanis or Lions, and pillar of the community. To the judge or jury you're nothing but a scumsucking lowlife gun dealer who sells untraceable guns to anyone with enough money.

Except that's not even close to how it happened here and there are all kinds of hearsay and evidence issues that would make this a much harder case than you suggest.
If DavidC had sold the gun after the SECOND offer of more than asking price, with the other party making the demand that it be done "off the books" (after he had told the person the first time that it's illegal and he wouldn't do it) that's a LOT of evidence to support an entrapment defense.

Entrapment is word not in the vocabulary of the ATF. They like to try to get people to violate local laws so they can get their "foot in the door" so an excuse can be made to do a dynamic entry and find "bomb making materials" or such. The end objective is to either wear you down emotionally or financially trying to defend yourself from the bogus charges that eventually you will agree to a plea bargain that often includes becoming an informant/agent provocateur.

I just know I'm going to be flamed for this, but I tape every individual-to-individual gun sale I am involved with.  I would never do anything to violate the law, but in case the ATF or the State Police come back saying I did something illegal I just whip out one of the copies of the tape and prove them what I did was on the up and up.

Unfortunately at that stage the police have the gun you sold them and you're in custody, and it's your word against the cop as to exactly whose idea it was.  And I've seen too many LEOs just flat-out lie in court to trust that idea.

When private party sales were outlawed around here several years ago, the local LEOs immediately starting hitting every gun show they could trying to buy guns from unsuspecting sellers, many of whom didn't even know the law had changed.  But the LEOs were right there doing everything they could to entice and entrap otherwise law abiding citizens.  And the ones who were aware of the new law were bombarded with repeated offers and assurances that it was ok, only to be arrested a few minutes later.

DavidC - luckily you turned down the overly generous offers to buy your Redhawk from "Mr. Cash&Carry" because there's no doubt you would've ended up in jail.  By and large, LEOs are lazy jackbooted scum who would rather spend their time trying to entice citizens into doing something that can use to arrest them rather than going after real criminals.

My point was that the LEO would likely flat-out lie at both the arraignment and the trial. He's not going to go through the trouble of making an arrest just to tell the truth in court and have the guy walk. I know and you know that DavidC didn't mention anything about having one price for a legal transfer and another price for an illegal one, but the cop would be trying to send him to prison and truth really doesn't matter in that case. Fact is, the cop would make it look like DavidC was the one who initiated the topic of illegal guns, and who offered to sell it illegally for a higher price. Any witnesses that DavidC's lawyer could bring would be brushed off by the prosecution - "you know these gun nuts, they all stick together" and similar stuff. There goes the hearsay angle - "the gun nuts are just sticking up for one another, and none of them would admit to hearing DavidC offer to illegally sell me a gun, even under oath." It all boils down to your word against his, and he's a cop and therefore his word means more.

... I cannot for the life of me believe [u]any[/u] ATF agent really is proud of his/her job. Times are tough and maybe it's all they can actually do to make a living.

... It's pathetic.

Gee, maybe he can't buy a gun any other way. Maybe he's got a felony, if only a minor felony, and he's trying to skate around the legality of buying it from a licensed dealer. This doesn't make him an automatic LEO, does it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again..."The second biggest group of liars in any courtroom are the cops".

Sorry to hear about your problems.


I thought it was a good show. While there were plenty of dealers looking to sell thier $40 AR-15 mags, there were also plenty of dealers selling them for $20.

I bought a RRA stripped lower for $125. I know they are selling here for around $100 but including the shipping and transfer fees I think I did pretty good.
There were at least 10 dealers that had a good selection of complete AR-15s and a few even had reasonable prices. I recall seeing a pre-ban Colt AR-15 for $1200 at one table.

I was kinda looking for a SAR-2/AK-47 but nobody had any although there were SAR-1 & SAR-3's selling for low to mid $300's.
Saw a few reasonably priced Garands also. I would like to have bought one of those but can't this close to x-mas.

I'm glad to see they are going to be doing gun shows at the VF Convention center again but I have to admit I like the Expo center shows a little more as the Expo center is 20 minutes closer to my house.

 Dude, where have you been for the past, oh lets say 20 years or so????
 Hear say and evidence issues???? That is only on reruns of Law and Order my friend.

 He would most likely be labeled as furnishing firearms to terrorists or terrorist organizations, villified by the local media, and you can bet your last thin dime that there would be some sort of "HOMELAND DEFENSE" issue that would be raised to justify the Feds involvement in burning his house to the ground with his wife and children inside.
 I will now refer you to Imbroglios post above this one. Take that to heart brother as it happens every day of the week. YOU ARE NOT A PERSON TO THESE PEOPLE, YOU ARE A SOURCE OF REVENUE AND BUDGET JUSTIFICATION.

 Chuck

You can bet that if he was LEO and you'd agreed to do the illegal transfer he'd have busted your ass in a heartbeat...  I think you should've turned him in to that cop at the door.
Who knows what difference it might make?

I'd like to see an example of the ATF jamming someone up with violations of state law. Impossible, Feds are Feds and can not in any way enforce state or local laws. Now if the Federal law is redundant to a state law (which is a growing trend in Federal legislation) they still must charge under the Federal law. I never ceases to amuse me how some people see ghosts in the shadows, BOO!

Some of you guys need to loosen your tin hats just a wee bit[:D]  ATF doesn’t enforce state or local laws.

If it was a LEO it was most likely a state or county LEO. Or maybe he was just a guy who wanted to buy a firearm without leaving a paper trail.

I've been in law school for the last 1.5 and in EVIDENCE class for the last 4 months. Where have YOU been? Obviously not in a courtroom where out of court statements are being offered as evidence. I've personally watched a criminal defendant walk in a NC courtroom on a communicating threats charge because there wasn't enough admissable evidence. Hearsay was the problem.
The hearsay issue is a double edged sword. It may also exclude out of court statements that the defense would want to use, and yes there are many exceptions to the hearsay rule.

My point is that this sounds too much like entrapment to be a (well planned) sting by LE. It could have been LE that was just incompetent or corrupt enough to lie. It was more likely just a guy that either won't pass NICS for whatever reason or someone that's paranoid.

This happen to me at the last gun show that I attended in Fayetteville, NC.  I had walked up to the Classic Arms table and was looking at the AR's when I overheard the proprietor tell a customer that he was delayed.  No sooner than he turn to leave, he say me standing with my CAR-15.  He then asked if it was for sale.  Yea, right!!  You just got delayed and are now trying to make a private sale?  Momma didn't raise no fool!

 Vulcan94

This guy was either (1) an idiot, or (2) an LEO trolling for idiots.

If he's an idiot, tell him what he's doing is wrong, explain to him why what he's suggesting is illegal, and ask him not to ask anyone else at the show to sell him a handgun off the books.

If you see him later, trying to do the same thing, remind him again in front of the guy he's talking to, that what he's suggesting is not legal.

We owe it to our fellow citizens to instruct them in the laws that we have come to know oh so well!

Why? 'Cause these laws don't make a whole lotta common sense!

If, after his second encounter with you, he is still observed doing the same thing, then (2), above, applies:

[b]He's an LEO trolling for idiots![/b]

Eric The(StandClear!)Hun[>]:)]

For those saying ATF doesn't enforce local laws, tell that to the 100,000 or so people who no longer have dealer licenses.  ATF is insisting on full compliance with local zoning laws.

As a law man, I say that the guy you describe was probably not an ATF Agent.  He probably wasn't a cop either.  I would say that he was one of two things.  A guy who knew nothing about guns wanting to buy a gun off paper or an undercover news reporter who knew about guns trying to put you on Dateline or something with a hidden camera.

Norm that is an ATF rule. They require that your place of business is in compliance with local zoning laws. The ATF does not charge FFL's who are in violation of local zoning laws with that offense. Their licenses are revoked because they are not in compliance with ATF rules. You will never, ever see an ATF case being tried in State or local courts. Agents might appear as witnesses but if it is tried in a state or local court then the charges come from that level. I have had cases tried in federal court. I can not enforce federal law. If in the course of an investigation I gain knowledge of or witness the violation of a Federal crime I can refer the case to the appropriate federal agency. If the penalties are more severe I may be willing to defer what ever local charges I have (with the consent of the local prosecutor) and appear as a witness for the federal prosecutor. For those who think that Federal agents can enforce state or local laws, they either A)simply choose to believe what they want to believe because they are looking for reasons to dislike the Feds or B)they just don't understand the concept of jurisdiction. Since that is a very simple concept, I suspect it is A).

 David it sounds like the same guy I ran into about 3 years ago.  You did the right thing.  BTW you can transfer a private sale in PA provided the buyer has a CCW, unless that has changed very recently.

paspecops -

I'm 99% certain that only long arm transfers between private individuals are legal in PA. All handguns must go through an FFL, and it's been that way for quite a while.

Hey Princeton -

Did you get that from Howard (the table with the M60 and minigun)?

I though it was a pretty good show too - saw several pre-89 AK's for under $800.  Unfortunately I didn't have much money to spend, but its good to see the VF show up and running again.

And DavidC - I don't know if it was a LEO or not, but either way, you did the right thing.  Even if it was just some guy who wanted to get a gun off paper, all you need is for him to do something stupid and have the paper trail on the gun end with you.  You don't need that kind of headache.

ATF: if it absolutely positively HAS to be fucked up over night.

ATF: every person with a gun is a target. every person without a gun is a non target but you should shoot them anyway.

... [b]300ydClean[/b] nailed this one!

I agree.

Read Sukebe's post.  Many investigations by state and local police uncover violations of federal law. In most cases the feds decline to prosecute the case and no charges are brought against the alleged offender.  

One of the laws that the feds routinely decline to prosecute is possession of small amounts of counterfeit money.

Shaggy


Yeah, I felt guilty about drooling all over his minigun. I just had to buy something.
Actually, I would like to have bought that M2 Carbine he had for sale, it was more in my price range. Unfortunately, I live in Philadelphia and could never get the paperwork signed. I guess I'll eventually have to look into incorporating to get at the real fun guns.

I would have probably strung him along a little to find out if he was really legit.  Ask some stupid questions, and when it finally came down to the end for $$$ to change hands, tell 'em something like, "let me run this past the wife" etc excuse.

Anytime I am around guns I assume everyone is a Fed\LEO and I have been asked if I am - more than once. People think I am ATF usually. DUH?

I do my best to act casually and without concern as I am always trying to abide the law and I also assume everyone is also.

I have had a pair of men in a Title 2 gun shop (silencers and machine guns sold) who would fit the description of Starsky and Hutch asking me about President Bush and "doesn't President Bush need my personal help?". What the F*CK? I hadn't mentioned President Bush or really even talked to them. I assume they were LEOs just trolling and trying to avoid actually pursuing an illegal activity before their next donut break. At a gun show I have had a stranger show me a bag saying he bought a lot of ammo "because you can never have too much ammo" and seeming to want a response from me.

With your daughter you should especially avoid controversy. Always.

Here's my .02:
That was not an LEO you were dealing with.  No LEO would risk his career for something like that.  He was either (1) a junior stealth reporter working for Dateline, 60 Minutes or another Lefty Leaning media outlet with an anti-gun agenda, or (2) he was a member of Handgun Control, Inc. or Violence Policy Center, or another rabid anti-gun org. or, (3) he was a political snoop working for Senators Shumer or Feinstein.  Whatever, you can probably bet he was wired.  Had you given in to his offer, you most likely would have gotten your fifteen minutes of fame...on embarrasing prime time.
In any case, (and with ALL due hind-site respect) you should have BURNED the SOB at the door...turned his ass into the cops and let them sort it out.  By turning the tables on those sneaky bastards, we can defuse their campaign against us.
Remember some of the crooked campaigns against organizations and businesses cooked up by the media and then they got busted when it turned out they goaded the "criminial perpetrator" into doing the "crime" in the first place?  Remember ABC vs. Food Lion grocery stores several years ago and the "spoiled meat scandal"?  Turns out that ABC made the whole damn thing up based upon ONE bad store that was operating totally out of bounds.  Food Lion sued and won a huge settlement.  There are many more.  The newsies now just don't report the news...they try to make the news...all in the search for the elusive Pulitzer and to, "...make society a better place to live!"
IF we can catch these bastards doing the same thing, we can expose their sorry asses and turn the tables on them and sue...maybe bring in the Big Guns and sic the NRA legal beagles on them.  We'd probably win AND get them the hell out of our gun shows forever!
Remember this, these people are NOT going to give up...they ARE after your guns, they will do ANYTHING to win, even commit crimes, since they see themselves fulfilling a more noble purpose...the eradification of firearms from out society.
STAY AWAKE!  Don't give an inch!  When you spot someone breaking the law like that, rat them out to the authorities.  Maybe they will think twice about doing it at the next show.  Take their picture and circulate it around the shows.  Make sure they are posted at the door!
The laws work for them just as they do for us.  Do you think for one second that that SOB would not turn YOU in?  In a New York Second!

[pissed][pissed] [soapbox] [pissed][pissed]

Like as in allegations of child abuse in Waco, Texas?  Just wondering.....

How many robberies? My guess is NONE! And that's (kind of) the problem. Law enforcement is a growth industry and it's grown so much that most of the cops have nothing to do but shake people down for speeding tickets and technical infractions. But don't worry...we won't run out of criminals anytime soon. They'll just make more laws!

Don't forget guys, Valley Forge is only a 15-20 minute ride from Downtown Philly...

I'd be willing to bet, it was a Philly news reporter looking to do a story on "Illegal gun sales at gun shows" OR "Guns slipping through the gunshow loophole"...
"Here on channel 6, Action News at eleven..."


I guarantee that guy won't do a story now, telling of how hard it is to buy a handgun illegally at a gunshow...

Why doesn't he go to the drug infested parts of Downtown Philly looking for an "unregistered" transaction...O-yeah, that might be dangerous...
Same reason the cops stay away...
It's easier work to go after civilized gun owners, than to go after the REAL law breakers...We don't shoot back, they do...

well, you are forgetting about state/local/fed task forces. In these you have local guys enforcing fed laws and feds working local cases and enforcing local laws.

Most of the feds I know would rather spend saturday fishing

Since I have been on one of those Task Forces in the past I can say you could not possibly be more wrong. What you have with a Task Force of the type you mention is simply a situation where manpower/investigations are combined and the locals can refer local charges, the Feds can refer federal charges. Read closely and take your time, I'm saying this for the last time. Federal agents can only enforce Federal law in Federal courts. At times local members are sworn in as SFO's (special federal officers aka glorified informants) that gives them clearence to work on federal investigations, in a supprt role never as lead investigators. We would augment man power for surveillance, serving federal search/arrest warrants and monitor wire taps. If charges resulted The feds referred them not us. The feds never referred local charges to local courts. I have never heard of a situation where a Federal Agent was sworn as a local officer. Incidently in the cases where local investigations resulted in federal charges the feds used our intelligence as PC to get what ever evidence they wanted by wire taps or informants. If this guy wasn't just a regular guy trying to skirt the law then I agree that he was someone other than law enforcement. Reporter or on the staff of an anti gun politician or something along those lines.