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Posted: 6/14/2009 8:09:22 AM EST
The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight
1. Forget about knives, bats and fists. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker and go to cover. Distance is your friend. (Bulletproof cover and diagonal or lateral movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. Yell "Fire!" Why "Fire"? Cops will come with the Fire Department, sirens often scare off the bad guys, or at least cause them to lose concentration and will.... and who is going to summon help if you yell "Intruder," "Glock" or "Winchester?"

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Stretch the rules. Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy."

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible, but remember, sheetrock walls and the like stop nothing but your pulse when bullets tear through them.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. Practice reloading one-handed and off-hand shooting. That's how you live if hit in your "good" side.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. Smiles, frowns and other facial expressions don't (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide NOW to always be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you.

22. Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad)

25. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." At a practice session, throw your gun into the mud, then make sure it
still works. You can clean it later.

26. Practice shooting in the dark, with someone shouting at you, when out of breath, etc.

27. Regardless of whether justified of not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."

Finally, Drill Sergeant Frick's Rules For Un-armed Combat.
1. Never be unarmed."
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:10:32 AM EST
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:14:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 8:14:44 AM EST by hotbiggun42]
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.



You didn't read it did you?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:20:46 AM EST
Farnam recently suggested another one, that I believe is worthy of our attention:
"Assume that everything you do is being recorded on videotape." Nowadays, that is probably true. So, no shooting after the opponent is out of the fight, no kicking in the face after he is handcuffed, no embellishing the facts to make your story sound better. Best not to say anything, and wait for the videotape to come out.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:22:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:24:12 AM EST

The only one I don't agree with is this:

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad)

I'm sorry but regardless, today with quality ammo in a shown reliable 9mm semi that is properly maintained, a person is capable who's trained to use it proficiently. A rifle or shotty is definitely better, but there hard to carry concealed.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:24:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.


Gald to see someone corrected the OP's rules.

#1 is all that matters...Have a gun

Trust me.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:24:51 AM EST
Thanks, I'm going to save this & send it out on e-mail.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:27:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:27:20 AM EST
In before the "Shot Placement is King" people.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:30:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 8:31:50 AM EST by hotbiggun42]
Originally Posted By uxo2:
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.


Gald to see someone corrected the OP's rules.

#1 is all that matters...Have a gun

Trust me.



I would think being in the proper frame of mind would be just as important .
and If your in a gunfight i would assume that you do have a firearm .
But I have never been in a gunfight .
So i will take your word for it.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:32:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight
1. Forget about knives, bats and fists. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need. AYUP

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive AYUP

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. AYUP

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly. AYUP so train

5. Move away from your attacker and go to cover. Distance is your friend. (Bulletproof cover and diagonal or lateral only if you have to movement are preferred.) AYUP

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun. AYUP

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived. AYUP

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. Yell "Fire!" Why "Fire"? Cops will come with the Fire Department, sirens often scare off the bad guys, or at least cause them to lose concentration and will.... and who is going to summon help if you yell "Intruder," "Glock" or "Winchester?" AYUP

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. AYUP

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty. AYUP

11. Stretch the rules. Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. AYUP

12. Have a plan. AYUP

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy." AYUP

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible, but remember, sheetrock walls and the like stop nothing but your pulse when bullets tear through them. AYUP

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours. AYUP

16. Don't drop your guard. AYUP

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. Practice reloading one-handed and off-hand shooting. That's how you live if hit in your "good" side. AYUP

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. Smiles, frowns and other facial expressions don't (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.) AYUP

19. Decide NOW to always be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. AYUP

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get. AYUP

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you. AYUP

22. Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one. AYUP

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. AYUP

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad) AYUP

25. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." At a practice session, throw your gun into the mud, then make sure it
still works. You can clean it later. AYUP

26. Practice shooting in the dark, with someone shouting at you, when out of breath, etc. AYUP

27. Regardless of whether justified of not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature. AYUP

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney." AYUP

Finally, Drill Sergeant Frick's Rules For Un-armed Combat.
1. Never be unarmed." AYUP



I concur

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:36:34 AM EST
like this?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:48:15 AM EST



Great pic . thats wall paper material.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:58:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By uxo2:
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.


Gald to see someone corrected the OP's rules.

#1 is all that matters...Have a gun

Trust me.


A large percentage of violent encounters occur within 5 feet, at that distance you are going to wish you had a knife as well.

Either way I practice knife work more often than close range pistol so I feel more comfortable with a good blade up close than a semi-auto.

Any real distance and I'm going to want a pistol though.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:05:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:09:03 AM EST
never bring a knife to a gun fight
never bring a gun to a chuck norris fight

seriously, ive seen this before and its always worth seeing again. great post
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:09:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By ViaDolorosa:

Originally Posted By uxo2:
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.


Gald to see someone corrected the OP's rules.

#1 is all that matters...Have a gun

Trust me.


A large percentage of violent encounters occur within 5 feet, at that distance you are going to wish you had a knife as well.

Either way I practice knife work more often than close range pistol so I feel more comfortable with a good blade up close than a semi-auto.
Any real distance and I'm going to want a pistol though.



huh?

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:14:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By ericmm00:
never bring a knife to a gun fight
never bring a gun to a chuck norris fight

seriously, ive seen this before and its always worth seeing again. great post


First time i had seen it .Although I figured it had been around for a while .
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:15:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight


24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad)
FAIL. That would mean .40S&W and .45ACP are acceptable, while .357Sig and 9mm Parabellum are not. This shows some major fail at the understanding of terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" and hydrostatic shock don't matter when it comes to handguns. It effectively comes down to getting stabbed with a pencil or a piece of rebar... The rebar will make a bigger hole, but the pencil penetrates the same structures.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."
Legal advice FAIL. "I feared for my life, I just wanted to make him stop. I'm too upset to say anything more, please speak with my attorney." It is going to turn out really well when a witness says he never said anything about killing you... Or even better, video.



Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:18:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight


24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad)
FAIL. That would mean .40S&W and .45ACP are acceptable, while .357Sig and 9mm Parabellum are not. This shows some major fail at the understanding of terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" and hydrostatic shock don't matter when it comes to handguns. It effectively comes down to getting stabbed with a pencil or a piece of rebar... The rebar will make a bigger hole, but the pencil penetrates the same structures.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."
Legal advice FAIL. "I feared for my life, I just wanted to make him stop. I'm too upset to say anything more, please speak with my attorney." It is going to turn out really well when a witness says he never said anything about killing you... Or even better, video.






It does say a caliber of which starts with anything smaller than a 4 I believe 9 is greater than 4 .
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:43:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive.


Ammunition is cheap? Where's he been shopping?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:46:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 9:46:56 AM EST by hotbiggun42]
Originally Posted By SteveV:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive.


Ammunition is cheap? Where's he been shopping?


Must have been written Pre obama

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:46:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight


24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad)
FAIL. That would mean .40S&W and .45ACP are acceptable, while .357Sig and 9mm Parabellum are not. This shows some major fail at the understanding of terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" and hydrostatic shock don't matter when it comes to handguns. It effectively comes down to getting stabbed with a pencil or a piece of rebar... The rebar will make a bigger hole, but the pencil penetrates the same structures.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."
Legal advice FAIL. "I feared for my life, I just wanted to make him stop. I'm too upset to say anything more, please speak with my attorney." It is going to turn out really well when a witness says he never said anything about killing you... Or even better, video.






It does say a caliber of which starts with anything smaller than a 4 I believe 9 is greater than 4 .

9mm isn't a caliber....

A caliber is a measurement in inches.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:49:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 9:49:27 AM EST by hotbiggun42]
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight


24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad)
FAIL. That would mean .40S&W and .45ACP are acceptable, while .357Sig and 9mm Parabellum are not. This shows some major fail at the understanding of terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" and hydrostatic shock don't matter when it comes to handguns. It effectively comes down to getting stabbed with a pencil or a piece of rebar... The rebar will make a bigger hole, but the pencil penetrates the same structures.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."
Legal advice FAIL. "I feared for my life, I just wanted to make him stop. I'm too upset to say anything more, please speak with my attorney." It is going to turn out really well when a witness says he never said anything about killing you... Or even better, video.






It does say a caliber of which starts with anything smaller than a 4 I believe 9 is greater than 4 .

9mm isn't a caliber....

A caliber is a measurement in inches.


I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:56:56 AM EST
I think rule #1 should read : If at all possible, when going to a gunfight, don't. (as in don't go)

#2. If you absolutely have to go, bring a gun.


Just my .02
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:01:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 10:12:44 AM EST by azdesertman]
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.



9mm is vastly superior to .38spl. Lots of ballistic / real world data out there proving this.

edit- If you knew you were getting into a gunfight and you chose 45acp over a rifle caliber, you are wrong.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:24:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.


Ok, here is your "gun" but you get no ammo. I hope you like your club.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:34:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.



9mm is vastly superior to .38spl. Lots of ballistic / real world data out there proving this.

edit- If you knew you were getting into a gunfight and you chose 45acp over a rifle caliber, you are wrong.


For a pistol, I would always choose .45ACP.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:37:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 10:47:55 AM EST by lamarbrog]
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.


Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:46:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By ViaDolorosa:
Originally Posted By uxo2:
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
Alternate rules for a gunfight:

Rule 1: Have a gun.

Everything else is negotiable.
Gald to see someone corrected the OP's rules.

#1 is all that matters...Have a gun

Trust me.
A large percentage of violent encounters occur within 5 feet, at that distance you are going to wish you had a knife as well.

Either way I practice knife work more often than close range pistol so I feel more comfortable with a good blade up close than a semi-auto.

Any real distance and I'm going to want a pistol though.
? You're telling me that you'd rather go for a knife than a gun? Keep in mind that you're saying that you're about 5 feet from the perp, but you don't know he's the perp. You don't get to start off with a weapon in hand, squared up, and exactly 5 feet away from your opponent.

I'm not saying don't have a knife, but first choice? Nope. Especially when a BG will have a gun and isn't going to stick close enough for you to slice'n'dice. What's the common saying? Bad guy can go 21 feet in 1.5 seconds? The human being's reaction time to a threat that is 5 feet(.4 seconds) away? Not anywhere close to preventing anything. This is why blading and using your weak hand to distract/slow is taught.

YMMV.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:50:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.





Pfft.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:56:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:
Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.
9mm is vastly superior to .38spl. Lots of ballistic / real world data out there proving this.

edit- If you knew you were getting into a gunfight and you chose 45acp over a rifle caliber, you are wrong.
For a pistol, I would always choose .45ACP.
That's what blew my mind a couple months ago. I was at a country-style get-together, and a co-worker decided to bring up guns, after he'd been drinking. Somehow we got on the conversation of caliber choice, and then which weapon/caliber would be the best choice for home defense. Keep in mind I have my P14.45 OC OWB @ 3o'clock(I was a DD). He claims a bunch of BS, and then that he doesn't have a problem with shooting a .45, but that a 9mil would be the best choice for home defense. He had already(in his mind) ruled out long guns. I repeated the question...
"So you're telling me that, in order to prepare for a home invasion, you're going to go to buy a home defense gun, and your choice, even though you can handle a .45, is to buy a 9mil?"
Still a yes. Then he says that he knows what he's talking about because he hunts beaver, in Oregon. Then he started calling me and the host faggots. He was 'asked' to leave... and his DD took him home.

Everyone thanked me for baiting him into being stupid, so we could make him leave. I said that I didn't like him anyways... so no big loss, but I didn't expect him to be that stupid.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:57:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 10:58:27 AM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.





Pfft.

It's actually the only reason I have a 1911...

It does nothing better than a lot of other guns, and it does many things worse... It is a cool pistol, but outdated for actual use.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:58:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.

Pfft.
And so it begins...

"obsolete when it was designed"...

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:00:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.

Pfft.
And so it begins...

"obsolete when it was designed"...


9mm Parabellum was designed in 1902, .45ACP was designed in 1904 if I recall correctly.

The military did use .45ACP, but switched to 9mm Parabellum, an older cartridge.


It was outdated when it was designed.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:05:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.





Pfft.

It's actually the only reason I have a 1911...

It does nothing better than a lot of other guns, and it does many things worse... It is a cool pistol, but outdated for actual use.




Watch yer cornhole bud. That'll get you thrown in jail 'round these parts.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:09:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.



9mm is vastly superior to .38spl. Lots of ballistic / real world data out there proving this.

edit- If you knew you were getting into a gunfight and you chose 45acp over a rifle caliber, you are wrong.



I was refering to pistol caliber .And i have heard the 9mm v 38spl debate before ,And I think we can both agree the 38 spl has killed many bad guys and is a proven self defense round .
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:09:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 11:10:25 AM EST by hotbiggun42]
Double tap
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:10:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:
Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.



9mm is vastly superior to .38spl. Lots of ballistic / real world data out there proving this.

edit- If you knew you were getting into a gunfight and you chose 45acp over a rifle caliber, you are wrong.


For a pistol, I would always choose .45ACP.


Hey, carry whatever you're comfortable with. I didn't say 45acp wasn't effective, just pointed out that I'd rather have a rifle in a gunfight.
I was also saying that 9mm is a better cartridge than 38spl because 9mm penetrates more, travels at a much higher velocity, and has much more energy.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:13:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.

Pfft.
And so it begins...

"obsolete when it was designed"...


9mm Parabellum was designed in 1902, .45ACP was designed in 1904 if I recall correctly.

The military did use .45ACP, but switched to 9mm Parabellum, an older cartridge.


It was outdated when it was designed.


Actually it was out dated when designed, it was based on the idea that a 45 could stop a charging horse (Obviously didn't understand the equal and opposite reaction thing). Since horse cav was obsolete when the repeating rifle was fielded it was a bit obsolete when designed.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:19:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

I carry a J frame in 38sp I agree with you 9mm is adequate .But i think if i was choosing a gun to take to a gunfight it would be my 45acp.



9mm is vastly superior to .38spl. Lots of ballistic / real world data out there proving this.

edit- If you knew you were getting into a gunfight and you chose 45acp over a rifle caliber, you are wrong.



I was refering to pistol caliber .And i have heard the 9mm v 38spl debate before ,And I think we can both agree the 38 spl has killed many bad guys and is a proven self defense round .


22lr has killed scores of people as well. That doesn't mean it's the best choice for self defense. I didn't suggest .38spl is a worthless caliber, I simply suggest 9mm is better. A 9mm bullet will travel at close to 400 feet a second faster, has better penetration in ballistic geletin, layered with clothes or not and also penetrates barriers (glass, cars, doors, etc.) with greater ease. It also has almost double the energy than a .38 which creates a more effective temporary wound cavity.

I sometimes carry a .38 too (Speer Gold Dot SB 135gr+P), I'm just saying that all factual data suggests that 9mm is a more effective round.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:22:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.

Pfft.
And so it begins...

"obsolete when it was designed"...


9mm Parabellum was designed in 1902, .45ACP was designed in 1904 if I recall correctly.

The military did use .45ACP, but switched to 9mm Parabellum, an older cartridge.


It was outdated when it was designed.


Another thing to consider is that many rounds back in the day were developed with black powder in mind.

Additionally, just because something is old doesn't mean it's obsolete. .50BMG ring a bell?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:27:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 11:28:19 AM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.

Pfft.
And so it begins...

"obsolete when it was designed"...


9mm Parabellum was designed in 1902, .45ACP was designed in 1904 if I recall correctly.

The military did use .45ACP, but switched to 9mm Parabellum, an older cartridge.


It was outdated when it was designed.


Another thing to consider is that many rounds back in the day were developed with black powder in mind.

Additionally, just because something is old doesn't mean it's obsolete. .50BMG ring a bell?

I'm not saying it is obsolete because it is old.... It is obsolete because 9mm Parabellum is a superior cartridge, that was designed two years earlier.

My argument is actually in favor of an older cartridge.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:49:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
.45ACP: Because there's something romantic about carrying heavy, high recoil, expensive, and low-performance ammunition that was obsolete when it was designed, with science proving so for many decades.

Pfft.
It's actually the only reason I have a 1911...

It does nothing better than a lot of other guns, and it does many things worse... It is a cool pistol, but outdated for actual use.

Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
9mm Parabellum was designed in 1902, .45ACP was designed in 1904 if I recall correctly.

The military did use .45ACP, but switched to 9mm Parabellum, an older cartridge.


It was outdated when it was designed.
Actually, it was designed because the requirement existed for .45 caliber or larger at the time of testing. I'd consider the smaller cartridge obsolete at that point. I really wouldn't quibble over 2 years, especially since the 9x19 Parabellum was merely a redesigned 7.65mm Luger cartridge, and the bullet shape had to be fixed in 1910.

I'm going to ask a stupid question. Do you have the .45 ACP ammunition because there's something romantic about it, or do you have the 1911 because there's something romantic about it?

If you tell me that you have a 1911 in .45ACP, and you wouldn't ever consider carrying it, and that you have for some romantic reason, you better tell me it's a gun that was made before the end of the last war that used them, was used in a war, or is a heirloom. Some line like 'I bought this Llama 1911/.45 because it's got something romantic about it' is gonna go over like a lead balloon.

BTW, ready to guess what caliber?
Have your favorite cartridge, in a classically styled pistol. Or just get a Colt .38 Super, and really have a classic.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:52:04 AM EST
Rule 0: arrange to be somewhere else.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:57:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Actually, it was designed because the requirement existed for .45 caliber or larger at the time of testing.


The requirement for a 45 caliber pistol following the reported failures of the 38 in the PI is a very dubious one. When you are having failures to stop against narcotic infused insurgents, with 38 pistols, 30-40 Krags, 12 gauge shotguns, 45 Colt SAAs the natural solution is to require a pistol that matched the effects of the 45 Colt?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:58:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Rule 0: arrange to be somewhere else.



Some of us, its our job.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:59:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By Sykkone:
Actually, it was designed because the requirement existed for .45 caliber or larger at the time of testing.
The requirement for a 45 caliber pistol following the reported failures of the 38 in the PI is a very dubious one. When you are having failures to stop against narcotic infused insurgents, with 38 pistols, 30-40 Krags, 12 gauge shotguns, 45 Colt SAAs the natural solution is to require a pistol that matched the effects of the 45 Colt?
I didn't say it was a good requirement, but then again, it did give us the .45ACP

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:00:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
I'm not saying it is obsolete because it is old.... It is obsolete because 9mm Parabellum is a superior cartridge, that was designed two years earlier.

My argument is actually in favor of an older cartridge.


Understood. You know, I think that with modern JHP's, 9mm is the best handgun cartridge for self defense today. Yeah It isn't the diameter of a .45acp, doesn't travel as fast as a .357sig and it doesn't have as much energy as a .44mag, but I believe it to be the best compromise. [Disclaimer: Just my opinion, put down the torches.] You can carry 15 rounds in a compact gun that weighs a mere 30 ounces loaded. And those rounds travel at 1200fps, consistently penetrate over 12 inches on ballistic gelatin, expand close to .70in, and are fairly effective through intermediate barriers. I think if more people researched scientific testings and shootings they might come to a similar conclusion. Someone once said: "In all the shootings I've witnessed, the effects would have all been the same with 9mm or .45." I think quite a few men carry a .45 simply because of peer pressure. Not all, just some.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 45acp isn't effective and I'm not calling those who prefer it unintelligent or uneducated. I just think 9mm get a bad wrap from many guys simply because it's a smaller physical dimension. Many of these men adopted the .45 cartridge only because some peers told them it was the best and they would be a sissy/women for carrying a 9mm. You see it all the time on this board: "9mm is for women!" "9mm? America doesn't speak metric!" "9mm might expand, but .45 will never shrink!) Etc. .Mostly irrational arguments that are backed up by emotions. Again, not all that favor .45 do this, just some.

Just my opinions, $0.02 and all that. But at the end of the day when all the petty arguments have ceased I'm just glad more and more good guys are carrying guns. Whether it be a .32 or a .500S&W.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:12:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By azdesertman:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
I'm not saying it is obsolete because it is old.... It is obsolete because 9mm Parabellum is a superior cartridge, that was designed two years earlier.

My argument is actually in favor of an older cartridge.
Understood. You know, I think that with modern JHP's, 9mm is the best handgun cartridge for self defense today. Yeah It isn't the diameter of a .45acp, doesn't travel as fast as a .357sig and it doesn't have as much energy as a .44mag, but I believe it to be the best compromise. [Disclaimer: Just my opinion, put down the torches.] You can carry 15 rounds in a compact gun that weighs a mere 30 ounces loaded. And those rounds travel at 1200fps, consistently penetrate over 12 inches on ballistic gelatin, expand close to .70in, and are fairly effective through intermediate barriers. I think if more people researched scientific testings and shootings they might come to a similar conclusion. Someone once said: "In all the shootings I've witnessed, the effects would have all been the same with 9mm or .45." I think quite a few men carry a .45 simply because of peer pressure. Not all, just some.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 45acp isn't effective and I'm not calling those who prefer it unintelligent or uneducated. I just think 9mm get a bad wrap from many guys simply because it's a smaller physical dimension. Many of these men adopted the .45 cartridge only because some peers told them it was the best and they would be a sissy/women for carrying a 9mm. You see it all the time on this board: "9mm is for women!" "9mm? America doesn't speak metric!" "9mm might expand, but .45 will never shrink!) Etc. .Mostly irrational arguments that are backed up by emotions. Again, not all that favor .45 do this, just some.

Just my opinions, $0.02 and all that. But at the end of the day when all the petty arguments have ceased I'm just glad more and more good guys are carrying guns. Whether it be a .32 or a .500S&W.
I'll just focus on this. Just because I can carry ^that, doesn't mean that I should carry it. I can carry more, comfortably, effectively. etc, so why not, when it increases my chances? I CAN carry a .22lr derringer. This: everyone needs to pick their own gun. It just irks me that someone will claim to 'just love'(so great, never jams, so sweet and smooth, etc...) shooting their 1911/.45 the most, but say that they don't carry it.

I do believe that certain weapon systems are built and adopted to a lowest common denominator. Right now, I have to carry an M9. I'd rather have my Para, but I rather not get shot because some 'lowest common denominator' couldn't hang onto my preferred weapon system while attempting to qualify, clear the weapon system, etc...

Just my $.45
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