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Posted: 4/20/2007 4:47:49 AM EDT

A judge's ruling on Cho Seung-Hui's mental health should have barred him from purchasing the handguns he used in the Virginia Tech massacre, according to federal regulations. But it was unclear Thursday whether anybody had an obligation to inform federal authorities about Cho's mental status because of loopholes in the law that governs background checks.

Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

"On the face of it, he should have been blocked under federal law," said Denis Henigan, legal director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The 23-year-old South Korean immigrant was evaluated by a psychiatric hospital after he was accused of stalking two women and photographing female students in class with his cell phone. His violence-filled writings were so disturbing that professors begged him to get counseling.

The language of the ruling by Special Justice Paul M. Barnett almost identically tracks federal regulations from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Those rules bar the sale of guns to individuals who have been "adjudicated mentally defective."

The definition outlined in the regulations is "a determination by a court ... or other lawful authority that a person as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness ... is a danger to himself or to others."

Virginia State Police send information on prohibited buyers to the federal government. They maintain that the sale was legal under state law and would have been barred only if the justice had committed Cho to a psychiatric hospital. Barnett ordered outpatient treatment instead.

The Virginia attorney general's office declined to discuss the application of gun laws to Cho's case. Barnett also declined to comment.

The state uses a slightly different standard than the federal government, barring sales to individuals who have been judged "mentally incapacitated."

George Burke, a spokesman for Democratic Rep. Carolyn McCarthy of New York, said millions of criminal and mental-health records are not accessible to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, mostly because state and local governments lack the money to submit the records.

McCarthy has sponsored legislation since 2002 that would close loopholes in the national background check system for gun purchases.

Initially states were required to provide all relevant information to federal authorities when the instant background checks were enacted, but a U.S. Supreme Court ruling relieved them of that obligation.

"The law is very confused about this," said Richard Bonnie, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Virginia who heads a state commission on mental-health reform. "The source of the confusion is the relation between federal and state law."

Also Thursday, the owner of an Internet gun store based in Green Bay, Wis., told The Associated Press that Cho used his Web site to purchase one of the weapons used in the shootings. Cho paid $268 for the gun.

Eric Thompson, who runs http://www.thegunsource.com, said the Walther .22-caliber handgun was then shipped to a Virginia pawnbroker so Cho could pick it up.

Thompson said he had no idea his business was involved until he was contacted Tuesday by ATF agents.

"I just feel absolutely terrible that this tragedy even happened in the first place," he said.

link



Just passing this along.

Has anyone heard from the ACLU yet?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:52:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AJ-IN-JAX:

Initially states were required to provide all relevant information to federal authorities when the instant background checks were enacted, but a U.S. Supreme Court ruling relieved them of that obligation.


Don't you just love it when the media and the our Representatives stating that the problem is our constitution and the US Supreme Court telling the government to stop abusing our rights as defined by the constituion?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:01:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 5:03:03 AM EDT by dave1w41]
Apparently the privacy rights of whackjobs that have been throwing off signals of impending violence for a DECADE surpass those of the rest of society. Hit2. Arson
3. Stalking - Twice
4. Weird antisocial behavior
5. Adjudicated mentally ill.
6. Extremely violent writings (bad enough for a professor to threaten to resign over his presence in her class)
7. Suicidal tendencies

What was this bag of dung doing at VT in the first place and why was he not being treated in a rubber room?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:04:07 AM EDT
yup
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:06:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dave1w41:

1. Hit list and 30 day suspension in middle school.



Really? I missed that in the news. Doesn't surprise me though.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:07:10 AM EDT
So, he lied on his 4473?

Hrmph.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:07:42 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By AJ-IN-JAX:
height=8
Originally Posted By dave1w41:

1. Hit list and 30 day suspension in middle school.



Really? I missed that in the news. Doesn't surprise me though.


Yup it was on the news this morning.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:09:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 5:10:31 AM EDT by dave1w41]
height=8
Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
So, he lied on his 4473?

Hrmph.


Yes he did. The ACLU should not have the ability to stop the BATF from actually doing it's job and having the records necessary for a true evaluation of a person's condition - including all court-related mental health records. (Jesus, I can't believe that I'm defending the BATF here...)
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:10:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dave1w41:

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
So, he lied on his 4473?

Hrmph.


Yes he did. The ACLU should not have the ability to stop the BATF from actually doing it's job and having the records necessary for a true evaluation of a person's condition - including all court-related mental health records.


This does not bode well for us freedom loving folk...
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:10:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
So, he lied on his 4473?

Hrmph.


thread on that here but that was before this came out.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:16:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dave1w41:
Apparently the privacy rights of whackjobs that have been throwing off signals of impending violence for a DECADE surpass those of the rest of society.
1. Hit list and 30 day suspension in middle school. Did this in 10th grade, wrote names of gossiping bitches who were making my life living hell on fake bullets, and let everyone see them. That shut them up
2. Arson
3. Stalking - Twice I was in 8th grade, and was a nerd. I ended up becoming friends with the girl in high school, she ended up becoming anorexic
4. Weird antisocial behavior I like video games and guns. For some people, that's weird and antisocial enough.
5. Adjudicated mentally ill.
6. Extremely violent writings (bad enough for a professor to threaten to resign over his presence in her class) My libtard 9th grade english teacher called my parents in when I wrote about Hitler (being an assholes, i'm no 88) and had mentioned my fondness of firearms in class ONCE before.
7. Suicidal tendencies

What was this bag of dung doing at VT in the first place and why was he not being treated in a rubber room?


It's so easy in hindsight to blame people for not catching this guy, but to be honest, until the moment he shot someone he was not in the red. This kind fo behavior prior to his shooting rampage is not the most extreme and antisocial behavior you'll see in college campuses.

HINDSIGHT.

The FBI themselves noted that Cho was a "lone wolf" and as if with most lone wolve cases, the red flags only become apparent after the fact!
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:22:53 AM EDT
I saw the VT shrink on the toob last night. As I suspected he would do, the prick stonewalled and acted all liberal uppity about the whole thing...AS IF HE WASN'T TO BLAME!

IF he and his fucking colleagues had taken the fucking time to inform our judicial system that they had a FUCKING WALKING TIME BOMB on their campus, then Cho would never have been sold those guns. They didn't and when the gun seller ran his background check, Cho passed. How fucked up is that...when we now know he had a LOOOOOONNNGG rap sheet...but was protected by the school shrinks' policy.

The school libtards, in a vain attempt to protect the "rights" of that sicko nutjob, are partly responsible for the deaths of all those poor people.

I FUCKING HATE LIBERALS!!!!
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:27:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:27:41 AM EDT
This article argues that it was technically legal for him to buy the gun, mostly due to different federal and state standards:
abcnews.go.com/WNT/VATech/story?id=3059185&page=1

'Mentally Ill' But Still Able to Buy a Gun

April 19, 2007 — A court-ordered mental health evaluation of Virginia Tech mass-murderer Seung-Hui Cho in December 2005 found him "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization" and "an imminent danger to self and others." But that never showed up in computer records when he went to buy his gun.

"We ran a state police background check," said Roanoke Firearms store owner John Markell, whose store sold Cho a Glock 19 handgun. "It came back clean."

Federal law is fairly clear. According to the "Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act'' that became law in 1993, anyone who "[h]as been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution" is prohibiting from purchasing a firearm.

The definition of a "mental defective" includes anyone whom "a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority" has determined to be "a danger to himself or other" because of "marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease."

Cho might seem to qualify as a "mental defective" by that definition, but FBI spokesman Steve Fischer said it's up to each state to determine who qualifies a "mental defective." And Virginia chooses to draw its lines in a way that didn't include Cho, even though he was found "mentally ill" and "a danger to self and others."

That's because in December 2005, Special Justice Paul Barnett ultimately decided Cho only needed outpatient care for his mental illness, not inpatient care, which would have triggered notification to law enforcement, which then should have been included in the National Instant Check System.

"Short of the involuntary admission to a hospital, no such report and no such law affects them," Barnett told ABC News.

Kristin Rand of the gun control group the Violence Policy Center said Virginia is skirting federal law by applying too narrow a definition of mental problems.

"I think it's pretty clear that Mr. Cho should have been prohibited from buying these guns," Rand said. "He had been clearly adjudicated as a mental defective, as unpleasant as that language might be."

Rand said Virginia — and other states — need to expand their definition of "mentally defective.

But policymakers who have pushed this issue before have met with resistance from mental health care professionals, who say such an expansion would increase the stigma for those with mental problems and scare many away from seeking help.

"It further underscores this notion that once you have a diagnosis of mental illness, you never get better, you never get over it," said David L. Shern, president and CEO of the National Mental Health Association. "And that just doesn't comport with the facts."

All of which means, a few weeks ago, when Cho filled out this federal gun form and checked that he had never "been adjudicated mentally defective," according to Virginia law he was not lying.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:49:41 AM EDT
There's no "loop hole" in the brady act. Adjudications of mental defect are to be reported to NICS. Reporting agencies apparently are not reporting what they are supposed to. But it appears, at least according to the article, the Supreme Court ruled reporting agencies did not have to provided the records. Probably because the fed did not provide the funds to do so.



Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:49:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 5:52:15 AM EDT by GunnyG]

Originally Posted By dave1w41:
Apparently the privacy rights of whackjobs that have been throwing off signals of impending violence for a DECADE surpass those of the rest of society.
1. Hit list and 30 day suspension in middle school. Does he have a Juvenile record? Wouldn't that record be sealed when he turned 18?
2. Arson No criminal charge was pressed by the school
3. Stalking - Twice No criminal charges were pressed by the victims
4. Weird antisocial behavior Not a crime
5. Adjudicated mentally ill. No, because there were no criminal charges from items #2 and 3, the court ordered a civil psychiatric evaluation based on the suicidal ideation in #7 below.
6. Extremely violent writings (bad enough for a professor to threaten to resign over his presence in her class) Anything like a Quentin Tarantino script?
7. Suicidal tendencies Court ordered eval by psych, and was determined to be not not suicidal, subsequently released.

What was this bag of dung doing at VT in the first place and why was he not being treated in a rubber room?


He was free, because others had declined to follow through when his behaviour impacted them. Perhaps they didn't want to take the time for a trial, or didn't want to adversely affect his future, by saddling him with a criminal record.

Despite the good intentions, it is clear that minimizing his destructive behaviour allowed this to grow beyond the ability of anyone to curb it. Without a criminal history, he didn''t meet the criteria to entered into NICS either as a felon, or as having been adjudicated as mentally defective. after having been found not guilty for reason of mental defect or disease, in a criminal trial.

Lessons learned after 23 years in the Marines: I've always been hesitant to refer charges for infractions, if I thought the Marine's behaviour could be dealt with unofficially in-house. The danger of that, is that if he later repeats or escalates to a worse offense, the opportunity was lost to officially document and correct the behaviour. Without documentation of previous infractions and measures taken to correct the behaviour, it makes it difficult for the Commanding Officer justify a punishment commensurate to the offense, because the Marine appears to be a first time offender.

Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:04:47 AM EDT
I don't believe that article you posted is accurate. Here's the details of the final determination in Cho's mental evaluation case:

CHO 'PRESENTS AN IMMINENT DANGER,' JUDGE WROTE IN '05
By LEELA de KRESTER Post Correspondent

Link

April 19, 2007 -- BLACKSBURG, Va. - A judge refused to send Cho Seung-Hui to a mental institution in 2005, ignoring his own conclusion that the troubled student "presents an imminent danger" to himself and others, court records show.

Cho had been accused of stalking two female Virginia Tech students in 2005, leading to a mental evaluation when an acquaintance feared the future killer might become suicidal, campus Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said. Cops had wanted to hospitalize Cho at the time, and the judge seemed to agree.

"He presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," Magistrate Paul Barrett wrote.

Despite that, Barrett eventually sided with a psychologist who called only for outpatient treatment.

"Alternatives to involuntary hospitalization were investigated and deemed suitable," he ruled.

The judge's decision was influenced by counselor Roy Crouse's evaluation of Cho. Crouse said the student had mental problems, but didn't need to be locked up. There was "sufficient cause to believe that he's mentally ill, but he does not represent an imminent danger to himself or others," according to Crouse, who worked at Access, a Blacksburg mental-health clinic.

The shrink's horrifically off-target report, signed Dec. 14, 2005, was unsealed yesterday in court.


Cho had been accused of stalking two women on Nov. 27 and Dec. 12 of that year, and Crouse noted Cho's unemotional demeanor and depressed mood.

"He denies suicidal intentions," Crouse wrote. "He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal."

Crouse, who has since left Access for a counseling job at Virginia Tech, could not be reached for comment last night.

Had Cho been involuntarily hospitalized, he wouldn't have been able to legally buy the massacre guns.

Karan Grewal, 21, who shared a dorm suite with Cho and four others, said university officials did not warn them that he had a history of stalking.

"I understand that maybe because of privacy reasons," he said. "It would have been better to know he was like that."

Meanwhile, Cho's parents remained in hiding yesterday. Cops guarded their house in the Washington suburb of Centreville, Va., and said the Chos had left town on Monday night.

The Cho family arrived in the United States from South Korea in 1992 and gained legal, permanent residency.

Cho's parents had long been worried about their son because he was so quiet - particularly in comparison to his overachieving sister and Princeton graduate Sun-Kyung.

She now works as a State Department contractor helping rebuild Iraq, officials said.

Cho's mom called her own dad periodically in Korea and happily chatted about how Sun-Kyung had gained acceptance to Harvard and won scholarships to Princeton, according to the Hankyoreh newspaper in Seoul.

When the grandfather asked about his grandson, the mom replied only, "He is doing OK."

With Marianne Garvey, David K. Li and Jeane MacIntosh

Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:08:55 AM EDT



Here's a list of most of the mental illnesses identified by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the U.S. standard reference for psychiatry. If any "mental illness" precluded someone from owning or purchasing a gun, there is not an American alive that could own a gun. Check out the list, I'm sure at least one applies to you.


Aberration
Acute stress disorder
Adjustment disorder
Affective disorder
Agoraphobia
Alcohol and substance abuse
Alcohol and substance dependence
Amnesia
Androphobia
Anxiety disorder
Anorexia nervosa
Antisocial personality disorder
Asperger syndrome, also known as Asperger's disorder
Attention deficit disorder, abbreviated as ADD.
Attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder, abbreviated as ADHD.
Autism
Autophagia
Avoidant personality disorder

[edit] B
Bereavement
Bibliomania
Binge eating disorder (proposed)
Bipolar disorder
Boanthropy
Body dysmorphic disorder
Borderline personality disorder
Brief psychotic disorder
Bulimia nervosa

[edit] C
Cataplexy
Chronic tic disorder
Childhood Disorder
Circadian rhythm sleep disorder
Conduct disorder
Conversion disorder
Conversion hysteria
Cyclothymia (or Cyclothymic disorder)
compulsive overeating

[edit] D
Delirium
Delusional disorder
Dependent personality disorder
Depersonalization disorder
Depression
Disorder of written expression
Disruptive behavior disorder
Dissociative amnesia
Dissociative disorder
Dissociative fugue
Dissociative identity disorder
Dyspareunia
Dysthymic disorder
Down syndrome

[edit] E
Emotional disorder
Encopresis
Enuresis (bedwetting)
Epilepsy
Exhibitionism
Expressive language disorder
Echolalia
Echopraxia

[edit] F
Factitious disorder
Female and male orgasmic disorders
Female sexual arousal disorder
Fetishism
Folie à deux
Frotteurism

[edit] G
Ganser syndrome
Gender identity disorder
Generalized anxiety disorder
General adaptation syndrome

[edit] H
Hallucinogen related disorder
Histrionic personality disorder
Homosexuality
Hyperactivity disorder
Primary hypersomnia
Hypoactive sexual desire disorder
Hypochondriasis
Hyperkinetic syndrome
Hysteria

[edit] I
Impulse control disorder
Intermittent explosive disorder
Insomnia

[edit] J
Joubert syndrome

[edit] K
Kleptomania

[edit] L
Learning disorders

[edit] M
Mania
Male erectile disorder
Munchausen's syndrome
Munchausen by proxy
Mathematics disorder
Mental retardation

[edit] N
Narcissistic personality disorder
Narcolepsy
Neurosis
Neuroticism
Nightmare disorder

[edit] O
Obsessive-compulsive disorder
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder
Oneirophrenia
Oppositional defiant disorder

[edit] P
Pain disorder
Panic attacks
Panic disorder
Paranoid personality disorder
Paraphilias
Parasomnia
Pathological gambling
Pervasive Developmental Disorder
Pica
Posttraumatic stress disorder
Postpartum depression
Premature ejaculation
Primary insomnia
Psychoneurosis
Psychotic disorder
Pyromania

[edit] R
Reading disorder
Retts disorder
Rumination disorder

[edit] S
Schizoaffective disorder
Schizoid personality disorder
Schizophrenia
Schizophreniform disorder
Schizothymia
Schizotypal personality disorder
Seasonal affective disorder
Separation anxiety disorder
Sexual Frustration disorder
Shared psychotic disorder
Sleep disorder
Sleep terror disorder
Sleepwalking disorder
Social phobia
Somatization disorder
Specific developmental disorder
Specific phobias
Stereotypic movement disorder

[edit] T
Tourette syndrome
Transient tic disorder
Transvestic Fetishism
Traumatic Stress Disorder
Trichotillomania

[edit] V
Vaginismus


The DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual), the U.S. standard reference for psychiatry, includes over 300 different manifestations of mental illness. Psychiatrists themselves are in dispute over how common some of these conditions are, or whether they should be listed as 'mental illnesses', and each version of the DSM is slightly different from the previous ones. The DSM is currently being revised and updated, and the next version will include new and refined diagnostic criteria and information. This is a portion of the currently recognised list of mental illnesses.


Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:11:30 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:12:58 AM EDT
Mathematics disorder

Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:13:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 6:16:47 AM EDT by Fast_Shadow]
LOL @ Male erectile disorder. Considering how many people use Viagra (not that there's anything wrong with that) that disqualifies about half the men in this country.

Exactly what I figured, though. The libs will abuse measures taken to prevent true psychos from getting guns in order to implement backdoor gun grabs.



Homosexuality


OH SNAP, homosexuality is listed in DSM? If it is listed as a mental illness then this pretty much wipes out any argument for allowing gays in the military. That is unless the libs care to admit that the DSM is not a good a standard as they want it to be.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:15:47 AM EDT
The simple fact is there is no way that laws can protect us from maniacs bent on mayhem. Laws that attempt to do so merely inconvenience the criminals, while disarming the lawful.

Arm yourself, train, have the right mindset.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:15:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dave1w41:

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
So, he lied on his 4473?

Hrmph.


Yes he did. The ACLU should not have the ability to stop the BATF from actually doing it's job and having the records necessary for a true evaluation of a person's condition - including all court-related mental health records. (Jesus, I can't believe that I'm defending the BATF here...)


Oh no, it's truely a sign of the end of the world.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:29:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 7:35:25 AM EDT by MACGI98Z28]
As soon as he was referred by a court for mental evaluation due to concerns that he might harm himself or others and DIAGNOSED (he was) mentally ill, that information should have been referred to NICS.

I am not nearly as concerned about someone being inconvenienced when trying to make a purchase or even having to clear their good name every time they do than I am for the apparent association between people like this and law-abiding gun owners that is inevitably drawn by the media and soccer moms after something like this happens.

We aren't talking about someone who is a little "down", sees a therapist and gets a prescription for Prozac here. We are talking about someone so overwhelming with creepy vibes that he gave college professors who probably had rosters made up of 1/2 Quentin Tarantino wanna-bees the heebie-jeebies. He was a complete fucknut and it was obvious to about 60-70% of the people he had any meaningful contact with. Forget "adjudicated" mentally ill, he was referred by a court and diagnosed as such. He should have been locked up, but they don't "lock up" (not that they shouldn't) a lot of mentally ill people these days.

Call me a shill for Ms. Brady, but I don't believe that NICS had been given enough or the right information to properly screen this turd and others like him.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:44:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MACGI98Z28:
As soon as he was referred by a court for mental evaluation due to concerns that he might harm himself or others and DIAGNOSED (he was) mentally ill, that information should have been referred to NICS.

I am not nearly as concerned about someone being inconvenienced when trying to make a purchase or even having to clear their good name every time they do than I am for the apparent association between people like this and law-abiding gun owners that is inevitably drawn by the media and soccer moms after something like this happens.

We aren't talking about someone who is a little "down", sees a therapist and gets a prescription for Prozac here. We are talking about someone so overwhelming with creepy vibes that he gave college professors who probably had rosters made up of 1/2 Quentin Tarantino wanna-bees the heebie-jeebies. He was a complete fucknut and it was obvious to about 60-70% of the people he had any meaningful contact with. Forget "adjudicated" mentally ill, he was referred by a court and diagnosed as such. He should have been locked up, but they don't "lock up" (not that they shouldn't) a lot of mentally ill people these days.

Call me a shill for Ms. Brady, but I don't believe that NICS had been given enough or the right information to properly screen this turd and others like him.


IF the victims had pressed criminal charges.

Until there is a criminal complaint, he is just another person with one of the psychiatric disorders listed in the DSM-IV. Any discussion of his endangering others is moot, until someone will follow through with criminal charges or otherwise provide substantiated and documented proof that his condition makes him unsuitable for interacting with society.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 8:05:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MACGI98Z28:
As soon as he was referred by a court for mental evaluation due to concerns that he might harm himself or others and DIAGNOSED (he was) mentally ill, that information should have been referred to NICS.

I am not nearly as concerned about someone being inconvenienced when trying to make a purchase or even having to clear their good name every time they do than I am for the apparent association between people like this and law-abiding gun owners that is inevitably drawn by the media and soccer moms after something like this happens.

We aren't talking about someone who is a little "down", sees a therapist and gets a prescription for Prozac here. We are talking about someone so overwhelming with creepy vibes that he gave college professors who probably had rosters made up of 1/2 Quentin Tarantino wanna-bees the heebie-jeebies. He was a complete fucknut and it was obvious to about 60-70% of the people he had any meaningful contact with. Forget "adjudicated" mentally ill, he was referred by a court and diagnosed as such. He should have been locked up, but they don't "lock up" (not that they shouldn't) a lot of mentally ill people these days.

Call me a shill for Ms. Brady, but I don't believe that NICS had been given enough or the right information to properly screen this turd and others like him.




There is this little thing called "due process" in the US Constitution. See 14th amendment. In Cho's case and specifically pertaining to his mental evaluation, until a court declared him "mentally incompetent" (or whatever term you want to use), then according to the constitution, he should have the right to purchase a firearm.

U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship,

Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 8:12:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 8:14:48 AM EDT by dave1w41]
height=8
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
height=8
Originally Posted By MACGI98Z28:
As soon as he was referred by a court for mental evaluation due to concerns that he might harm himself or others and DIAGNOSED (he was) mentally ill, that information should have been referred to NICS.

I am not nearly as concerned about someone being inconvenienced when trying to make a purchase or even having to clear their good name every time they do than I am for the apparent association between people like this and law-abiding gun owners that is inevitably drawn by the media and soccer moms after something like this happens.

We aren't talking about someone who is a little "down", sees a therapist and gets a prescription for Prozac here. We are talking about someone so overwhelming with creepy vibes that he gave college professors who probably had rosters made up of 1/2 Quentin Tarantino wanna-bees the heebie-jeebies. He was a complete fucknut and it was obvious to about 60-70% of the people he had any meaningful contact with. Forget "adjudicated" mentally ill, he was referred by a court and diagnosed as such. He should have been locked up, but they don't "lock up" (not that they shouldn't) a lot of mentally ill people these days.

Call me a shill for Ms. Brady, but I don't believe that NICS had been given enough or the right information to properly screen this turd and others like him.




There is this little thing called "due process" in the US Constitution. See 14th amendment. In Cho's case and specifically pertaining to his mental evaluation, until a court declared him "mentally incompetent" (or whatever term you want to use), then according to the constitution, he should have the right to purchase a firearm.

U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship,

Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


He got due process but his condition wasn't reported in so that it turned up in the NCIS check. There's no reason that someone who is mentally ill and has exhibited things like Cho had should have had a firearm. Once he found his way in front of a judge that's all the due process he needed.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 8:24:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 8:26:03 AM EDT by 57Strat]

Originally Posted By dave1w41:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:

Originally Posted By MACGI98Z28:
As soon as he was referred by a court for mental evaluation due to concerns that he might harm himself or others and DIAGNOSED (he was) mentally ill, that information should have been referred to NICS.

I am not nearly as concerned about someone being inconvenienced when trying to make a purchase or even having to clear their good name every time they do than I am for the apparent association between people like this and law-abiding gun owners that is inevitably drawn by the media and soccer moms after something like this happens.

We aren't talking about someone who is a little "down", sees a therapist and gets a prescription for Prozac here. We are talking about someone so overwhelming with creepy vibes that he gave college professors who probably had rosters made up of 1/2 Quentin Tarantino wanna-bees the heebie-jeebies. He was a complete fucknut and it was obvious to about 60-70% of the people he had any meaningful contact with. Forget "adjudicated" mentally ill, he was referred by a court and diagnosed as such. He should have been locked up, but they don't "lock up" (not that they shouldn't) a lot of mentally ill people these days.

Call me a shill for Ms. Brady, but I don't believe that NICS had been given enough or the right information to properly screen this turd and others like him.




There is this little thing called "due process" in the US Constitution. See 14th amendment. In Cho's case and specifically pertaining to his mental evaluation, until a court declared him "mentally incompetent" (or whatever term you want to use), then according to the constitution, he should have the right to purchase a firearm.

U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship,

Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


He got due process but his condition wasn't reported in so that it turned up in the NCIS check. There's no reason that someone who is mentally ill and has exhibited things like Cho had should have had a firearm. Once he found his way in front of a judge that's all the due process he needed.



Reread my post. I said disallowing a firearm purchase based on being mentally incompetent before due process is completed is not allow by the constitution. The poster I responded to said Cho should have been denied a firearms purchase before due process was complete. Cho's due process determined that "he was NOT a threat to himself or others" and that he had "sound insight and judgment". He was not adjudicated to be mentally incompetent.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 9:00:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2007 10:53:10 AM EDT by 57Strat]
It appears that I incorrectly understood the article in assuming that the magistrate sided with the psychologist and ruled that Cho did not present a danger to himself or others. The magistrate did rule that Cho presented a danger to himself or others (see next to last page), but sided with the psychologist for out-patient treatment and ignored the psychologist recommendation that Cho had "normal insight and judgment".














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